[FRC Blog] FIRST Championship District Allocations

[bdaroz]

FIRST Championship District Allocations - 14 Dec 2016

http://www.firstinspires.org/robotics/frc/blog/2017-cmp-district-allocations


FIRST Championship District Allocations
Written by Frank Merrick.


On Saturday, we took a snapshot of ‘secured’ teams from the Districts and FIRST Robotics Competition overall. Teams are ‘secured’ if they have either paid their registration fee or have provided us with a purchase order or letter of commitment from a grantor or sponsor formally committing to payment.

We used this snapshot to allocate FIRST Championship slots to Districts, as described in this blog. We use secured teams for these calculations rather than simply all teams that are currently registered and waitlisted for events as we have great confidence that secured teams will actually be participating this year. While we continue to work to secure teams, we have less confidence those teams not yet secured will actually be participating this season.

If you are interested in seeing the details on the calculation use to allocate these slots, click here.


These allocations were shared with District management on Monday. You can see them below. Recall that these FIRST Championship slots are guaranteed to Districts. Should a given team ‘in the green’ for attending Championship decline the invitation, the highest ranked not-yet-invited team for that District gets an invite, and on down the line until all slots are filled or the District runs out of teams.


FIRST Championship, Houston

Allocated Slots

FIRST Israel -16
FIRST North Carolina - 15
Pacific Northwest - 39
Peachtree - 18



FIRST Championship, St. Louis

Allocated Slots

FIRST Chesapeake - 23
FIRST in Michigan - 82
Indiana FIRST - 10
Mid-Atlantic Robotics - 22
New England - 37
Ontario - 29


Frank

[jlmcmchl]

(Sub)Divisions are going to be 50 teams this year, right?

FiM is allocated 2 or 4x as much as any other district, and more than enough to fill a division, almost two. That's a lot of the field.

[Lil' Lavery]

(Sub)Divisions are going to be 50 teams this year, right?

FiM is allocated 2 or 4x as much as any other district, and more than enough to fill a division, almost two. That's a lot of the field.

I really don't think this is coincidental with the upcoming move to Detroit. The team density in Southeast Michigan is ridiculous compared to, well, everywhere else.

[jlmcmchl]

I really don't think this is coincidental with the upcoming move to Detroit. The team density in Southeast Michigan is ridiculous compared to, well, everywhere else.

To be fair, it's also probably the appropriate proportion of FiM teams against the number of teams in areas allocated for North Champs.

I seem to remember all but a small handful of schools in Oakland County, maybe enough to count on your hands, don't have a FRC team. But I heard that some time ago, so you're free to take it with a grain of salt.

[Nate Laverdure]

Compared to last year's allocations (7.4.4 of 2016 admin manual (https://firstfrc.blob.core.windows.net/frc2016manuals/AdminManual/FRC-2016-admin-manual-07.pdf))

FIRST Chesapeake -2
Mid-Atlantic Robotics even
Indiana FIRST +1
New England +3
FIRST North Carolina +5
FIRST in Michigan +6
Peachtree +6
Pacific Northwest +9

[Bkeeneykid]

7.4.4 of 2016 admin manual

As yes, the time where we could just simply cite a rule number rather than a link to a website that will probably change without notice....

Is this too passive aggressive against FIRST?

[Nuttyman54]

(Sub)Divisions are going to be 50 teams this year, right?

FiM is allocated 2 or 4x as much as any other district, and more than enough to fill a division, almost two. That's a lot of the field.

I believe FIRST announced somewhere they are targeting 400 teams per Championship Event and 6 sub-divisions, so that's about 67 teams per subdivision. Still smaller than any division or sub-division back to 2004 (which were 73 teams each)

[TDav540]

Compared to last year's allocations (7.4.4 of 2016 admin manual (https://firstfrc.blob.core.windows.net/frc2016manuals/AdminManual/FRC-2016-admin-manual-07.pdf))

FIRST Chesapeake -2
Mid-Atlantic Robotics even
Indiana FIRST +1
New England +3
FIRST North Carolina +5
FIRST in Michigan +6
Peachtree +6
Pacific Northwest +9

Didn't they say that all districts would gain at least one spot? How does Chesapeake lose two then?

[Nate Laverdure]

Didn't they say that all districts would gain at least one spot? How does Chesapeake lose two then?
Not really. Frank said (http://www.firstinspires.org/robotics/frc/blog/2017-first-championships-allocations-for-districts)
...if 2017 were to look like 2016 with respect to team counts, all Districts will have at least one more guaranteed slot at their Championship than they did in 2016
But this did not happen. Instead, the number of CHS teams counted as "secured" in this calculation dropped something like 13% to 115. EDIT note that 129 (https://my.usfirst.org/myarea/index.lasso?page=searchresults&programs=FRC&reports=teams&sort_teams=number&results_size=250&omit_searchform=1&season_FRC=2017&area=va-usa) CHS (https://my.usfirst.org/myarea/index.lasso?page=searchresults&programs=FRC&reports=teams&sort_teams=number&results_size=250&omit_searchform=1&season_FRC=2017&area=md-usa) teams (https://my.usfirst.org/myarea/index.lasso?page=searchresults&programs=FRC&reports=teams&sort_teams=number&results_size=250&omit_searchform=1&season_FRC=2017&area=dc-usa) are currently registered.

[PayneTrain]

Not really.
Instead, the number of CHS teams counted as "secured" in this calculation dropped something like 13% to 115. EDIT note that [URL="https://my.usfirst.org/myarea/index.lasso?page=searchresults&programs=FRC&reports=teams&sort_teams=number&results_size=250&omit_searchform=1&season_FRC=2017&area=va-usa"]129 (http://www.firstinspires.org/robotics/frc/blog/2017-first-championships-allocations-for-districts) CHS (https://my.usfirst.org/myarea/index.lasso?page=searchresults&programs=FRC&reports=teams&sort_teams=number&results_size=250&omit_searchform=1&season_FRC=2017&area=md-usa) teams (https://my.usfirst.org/myarea/index.lasso?page=searchresults&programs=FRC&reports=teams&sort_teams=number&results_size=250&omit_searchform=1&season_FRC=2017&area=dc-usa) are currently registered.

go us

https://media.giphy.com/media/zaDi0mXkYM3eg/giphy.gif

[bkahl]

What a meme.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Didn't they say that all districts would gain at least one spot? How does Chesapeake lose two then?

When in doubt, blame Wil Payne.

(I have nothing else to add to this discussion)

[PayneTrain]

When in doubt, blame Wil Payne.

(I have nothing else to add to this discussion)

i feel personally attacked

[marshall]

FIRST Championship District Allocations - 14 Dec 2016

http://www.firstinspires.org/robotics/frc/blog/2017-cmp-district-allocations

So this system incentivizes the districts to move to the PNW style model or am I wrong? In that model I believe the district pays FIRST HQ and then the teams pay the district.

Doing that would result in like 90%+ teams having secured funding and thus more teams going on to championships. The district directors (particularly ours) have no qualms about wanting their own teams to be successful at championships and to do that they need to get them there first.

So I don't quite understand this process... It seems to be at odds with some of the stated goals for FIRST.

It seems to incentivize districts with smaller numbers of teams so larger percentages get paid up and thus more of that district's teams go on to play.

It also seems to incentivize districts with teams who can secure funding which means more rural areas that have a harder time getting funding secured are less likely to have more spots. Those same rural teams are more likely to have underserved and minority youths.

I swear I just took some training material about unconscious bias and one of the things I learned was that by looking for students in specific locations and not targeting the whole community we end up getting a less diverse team.

Isn't the same true for the championship events? Don't we end up with a less diverse group of teams by ensuring that only teams that can pay can go? I mean, FRC is inherently unfair but this seems super backwards with the stated goals.

I really don't know how I feel about this. On the surface this doesn't seem quite right. I was more ok with them basing it on the number of teams in each district.

[PayneTrain]

So this system incentivizes the districts to move to the PNW style model or am I wrong? In that model I believe the district pays FIRST HQ and then the teams pay the district.

Doing that would result in like 90%+ teams having secured funding and thus more teams going on to championships. The district directors (particularly ours) have no qualms about wanting their own teams to be successful at championships and to do that they need to get them there first.

So I don't quite understand this process... It seems to be at odds with some of the stated goals for FIRST.

It seems to incentivize districts with smaller numbers of teams so larger percentages get paid up and thus more of that district's teams go on to play.

It also seems to incentivize districts with teams who can secure funding which means more rural areas that have a harder time getting funding secured are less likely to have more spots. Those same rural teams are more likely to have underserved and minority youths.

I swear I just took some training material about unconscious bias and one of the things I learned was that by looking for students in specific locations and not targeting the whole community we end up getting a less diverse team.

Isn't the same true for the championship events? Don't we end up with a less diverse group of teams by ensuring that only teams that can pay can go? I mean, FRC is inherently unfair but this seems super backwards with the stated goals.

I really don't know how I feel about this. On the surface this doesn't seem quite right. I was more ok with them basing it on the number of teams in each district.

it currently is heavily incentivizing districts to exist in the not north part of the continental US

[marshall]

it currently is heavily incentivizing districts to exist in the not north part of the continental US

Well you know, we have better BBQ down south. ;)

[PayneTrain]

Well you know, we have better BBQ down south. ;)

yeah, like in texas

[MARS_James]

....

To take a break from the meme game all of us regional and district teams had the same day to get our money in and finish registering for events, and that day was November 28th according to FIRST's website. FIRST waited 12 days to get the capture the number of teams.

What confuses me is the discrepancy between the FIRST site team listing and FIRST's internal numbers. Why are there 14 teams from The Chesapeake district who are listed in events but haven't paid? I only ask because on one very embarrassing occasion I got the registration payment date wrong and my team was kicked from our event. I figured this was standard procedure.

[Knufire]

yeah, like in texas

http://m.memegen.com/3oztc7.jpg

[Andrew Schreiber]

To take a break from the meme game all of us regional and district teams had the same day to get our money in and finish registering for events, and that day was November 28th according to FIRST's website. FIRST waited 12 days to get the capture the number of teams.

What confuses me is the discrepancy between the FIRST site team listing and FIRST's internal numbers. Why are there 14 teams from The Chesapeake district who are listed in events but haven't paid? I only ask because on one very embarrassing occasion I got the registration payment date wrong and my team was kicked from our event. I figured this was standard procedure.

Some of it could be prearranged things like "hey we're having issues with getting checks cut from our school/sponsor" or working with the RD to secure funding.

[TDav540]

So this system incentivizes the districts to move to the PNW style model or am I wrong? In that model I believe the district pays FIRST HQ and then the teams pay the district.

Doing that would result in like 90%+ teams having secured funding and thus more teams going on to championships. The district directors (particularly ours) have no qualms about wanting their own teams to be successful at championships and to do that they need to get them there first.

So I don't quite understand this process... It seems to be at odds with some of the stated goals for FIRST.

It seems to incentivize districts with smaller numbers of teams so larger percentages get paid up and thus more of that district's teams go on to play.

It also seems to incentivize districts with teams who can secure funding which means more rural areas that have a harder time getting funding secured are less likely to have more spots. Those same rural teams are more likely to have underserved and minority youths.

I swear I just took some training material about unconscious bias and one of the things I learned was that by looking for students in specific locations and not targeting the whole community we end up getting a less diverse team.

Isn't the same true for the championship events? Don't we end up with a less diverse group of teams by ensuring that only teams that can pay can go? I mean, FRC is inherently unfair but this seems super backwards with the stated goals.

I really don't know how I feel about this. On the surface this doesn't seem quite right. I was more ok with them basing it on the number of teams in each district.

I'm gonna be honest Marshall, I'm not sure that makes a lot of sense. Yes, you're right, it does incentivize the PNW model, but that model has a lot of positives to it, so I'm not sure why that would be a negative.

Second, if you haven't secured funding at this point in the season, it isn't too unreasonable to think that you might not actually play, and furthermore, might not be able to fund a trip to Championship.

Third, yeah, we do end up with a slightly less diverse group of teams at Championship if we don't include the teams who can't pay to go. But Championship has always had an entry fee, which right now is the same as the standard registration. So that really isn't a change from anything else we've been doing. If a team is struggling to pay for their regular event, why would they be able to go to Champs?

To me, this system rewards districts which have already (with less than 25 days left till kickoff) found funding for their teams.

[marshall]

I'm gonna be honest Marshall, I'm not sure that makes a lot of sense. Yes, you're right, it does incentivize the PNW model, but that model has a lot of positives to it, so I'm not sure why that would be a negative.

Second, if you haven't secured funding at this point in the season, it isn't too unreasonable to think that you might not actually play, and furthermore, might not be able to fund a trip to Championship.

Third, yeah, we do end up with a slightly less diverse group of teams at Championship if we don't include the teams who can't pay to go. But Championship has always had an entry fee, which right now is the same as the standard registration. So that really isn't a change from anything else we've been doing. If a team is struggling to pay for their regular event, why would they be able to go to Champs?

To me, this system rewards districts which have already (with less than 25 days left till kickoff) found funding for their teams. Which makes perfect sense to me.

As I said, I don't know how I feel about it. It just strikes me as not quite right on the surface. I'm open to options but this was presented without a full picture to me.

[yarden.saa]

Compared to last year's allocations (7.4.4 of 2016 admin manual (https://firstfrc.blob.core.windows.net/frc2016manuals/AdminManual/FRC-2016-admin-manual-07.pdf))

FIRST Chesapeake -2
Mid-Atlantic Robotics even
Indiana FIRST +1
New England +3
FIRST North Carolina +5
FIRST in Michigan +6
Peachtree +6
Pacific Northwest +9

FIRST Israel +10 (moved from regional to districts)

[Chris is me]

You can clearly notice that if a region is going to South Champs, they got way more additional spots than if they are going to North Champs.

This really is not resulting in "bringing the Championship experience to more teams" in an equitable manner between the halves. The north half gets zero benefit from this split other than 1/3rd fewer teams at their event.

I'm sure the FIRST BoD will deem this split a success regardless of what happens, though. The numbers went up, more registration fees entered the account, the people that made the decision who didn't have to do any of the implementation will feel good while the staff who has to pick up the pieces of this top-down decision will struggle through these growing pains and bear most of the complaints.

[AdamHeard]

You can clearly notice that if a region is going to South Champs, they got way more additional spots than if they are going to North Champs.

This really is not resulting in "bringing the Championship experience to more teams" in an equitable manner between the halves. The north half gets zero benefit from this split other than 1/3rd fewer teams at their event.

I'm sure the FIRST BoD will deem this split a success regardless of what happens, though. The numbers went up, more registration fees entered the account, the people that made the decision who didn't have to do any of the implementation will feel good while the staff who has to pick up the pieces of this top-down decision will struggle through these growing pains and bear most of the complaints.

Other than getting rid of two champs, or moving the locations to make them more geographically balanced... what's the solution here?

If FIRST gave districts equal representation divided among both champs but a norther district was given the southern champs likely 2-4x farther from them, would that be acceptable?

Not disagreeing with you, more so rambling about how the quantity and locations of two champs makes it really hard to make any such assignment equitable.

[Chris is me]

Other than getting rid of two champs, or moving the locations to make them more geographically balanced... what's the solution here?

If FIRST gave districts equal representation divided among both champs but a norther district was given the southern champs likely 2-4x farther from them, would that be acceptable?

Not disagreeing with you, more so rambling about how the quantity and locations of two champs makes it really hard to make any such assignment equitable.

It's a tough problem, but I think it would have been better to either make or allow more teams from the north to travel south, even if it's a bit farther travelling than going to the North Championship. As long as it's not drastically worse than travel to Atlanta / STL, it's not a huge problem, and it would make distribution better.

The choices for locations are limited, but I think it would have been better to put more focus on a roughly equal number of eligible teams for each event versus minimizing travel time. That, or allow for some more "flex states" in the model that can pick either or, instead of the current system of a big wall with a few holes in it via the waitlist.

[bdaroz]

It's a tough problem, but I think it would have been better to either make or allow more teams from the north to travel south, even if it's a bit farther travelling than going to the North Championship. As long as it's not drastically worse than travel to Atlanta / STL, it's not a huge problem, and it would make distribution better.

I might be talking out my back side a bit here but, off the top of my head...

What if each district were assigned x number of additional spots in their non-home champs. I'd also argue their main allocation would need to be at 2016 (or slightly lower) levels, but the total allocation would be larger.

And to be fair, the southern districts would also gain additional slots to attend the north as well, albeit perhaps not as many.

It would give FIRST a tuneable, if you will, to try to balance things.

[MARS_James]

Since this is in response to a bunch of people's comments I am not quoting all of them.

When I last checked the difference between the number of teams "zoned" to each champs was +353 to North champs. However Missouri and Kansas are switching champs next year bringing the difference down to only +165. Yes that is still a lot of teams however FIRST really can't do much except hope that we have more growth in the south.

[Michael Kaurich]

Yes that is still a lot of teams however FIRST really can't do much except hope that we have more growth in the south.

And growth in Michigan will eventually stall when every high school has a team.

[Andrew Schreiber]

however FIRST really can't do much except hope that we have more growth in the south.

This can't be right. I'd assume FIRST has some knobs and levers to help promote regional growth. They CAN'T have been doing this for so many years without having some knowledge of how to spur growth.

[MARS_James]

This can't be right. I'd assume FIRST has some knobs and levers to help promote regional growth. They CAN'T have been doing this for so many years without having some knowledge of how to spur growth.

I mean it isn't like FIRST was against the district model and forced them into isolation, and it's not like that that area now has over 400 teams, and districts teams now make up 43% of all teams.

Or FIRST had a regional in Brazil that flopped because it could not get more than 15 teams. Yet China and Australia proved they had the teams via offseasons to support a regional

Or every other major advancement in FIRST teams was done via the actions of FIRST teams and not the organization.

[Andrew Schreiber]

I mean it isn't like FIRST was against the district model and forced them into isolation, and it's not like that that area now has over 400 teams, and districts teams now make up 43% of all teams.

Or FIRST had a regional in Brazil that flopped because it could not get more than 15 teams. Yet China and Australia proved they had the teams via offseasons to support a regional

Or every other major advancement in FIRST teams was done via the actions of FIRST teams and not the organization.

I think I failed to convey the sheer sarcasm I intended.

[MARS_James]

I think I failed to convey the sheer sarcasm I intended.

As did I, we need to take after reddit and just put /s

[Richard Wallace]

And growth in Michigan will eventually stall when every high school has a team.

When that happens we will just start another team at our own school. ;)

I think I failed to convey the sheer sarcasm I intended.

Subtlety will get you nowhere. :rolleyes: