View Full Version : The 1 bin confusion.....
Rob Colatutto
05-01-2003, 18:00
one big thing my team discovered today....if you have 1 bin has your tallest stack, so all the bins are jsut randomly on the floor. and if there is one bin thats on its side, does it count as two? its clearly more than 1 unit of measure the stack height, but 1 container is technically not a stack. the rules say it will be release at a later date, the exact height of all the measurements on the stick woodie had at kickoff. so does any have any ideas? is it counting as a stack of 1....or of 2
FotoPlasma
05-01-2003, 18:03
According to everything I've seen (from the kickoff, Dave Lavery's demonstration), stacks are based on height, not bin amount.
A bin on its side, breaking the plane of the second level, counts as a stack two bins high, nested properly.
Additionally, one bin sitting bottom down on the floor, with another bin, short side down, sitting on top of it, is worth a stack three tall.
This is just what I believe to be viable in the rules, and game scoring methods. If I'm wrong, someone please correct me.
MikeWherley
05-01-2003, 18:53
Correct, but remember that if you have one bin one its side (counting as a multiplier of 2) and 4 other bins on the floor, then you total points is 6, not 8. Stack height (2) times your base bin amount: Total number of bins (5) minus stack height (2) times for a total of 3.
Hope this helps!
Mark Garver
05-01-2003, 18:57
If your alliance only has 1 bin total in the scoring position at the end of the match that bin counts as the multiplier and then your box score is 0.
Winged Globe
05-01-2003, 19:00
Originally posted by MikeWherley
Correct, but remember that if you have one bin one its side (counting as a multiplier of 2) and 4 other bins on the floor, then you total points is 6, not 8. Stack height (2) times your base bin amount: Total number of bins (5) minus stack height (2) times for a total of 3.
Hope this helps!
No......
SC8:
All containers in the tallest stack located in the scoring zone (the “multiplier stack”) are worth zero points. Containers in additional stacks of the same height will be
scored normally;
There's only 1 container in the stack. Hence, it would be a score of 8.
Rob Colatutto
05-01-2003, 19:09
where did you get 8?? ok, say there is 7 boxes, all just thrown about your scoring zone. so the tallest stack is 1, but now, say 6 of those 7 boxes are right side up, but one is on its side. so now that one counts as your tallest box, and does it count as 2 or 1 box? so is your score 6 or 12
Mark Garver
05-01-2003, 19:12
The way I read the rules is it would be 12.
MikeWherley
05-01-2003, 19:16
Originally posted by Winged Globe
There's only 1 container in the stack. Hence, it would be a score of 8. Actually, no:
Check out rule 7.6: "The total base score is then multiplied by the height in
whole Stack Height Units (SHU) of the multiplier stack. A whole Stack Height Unit (15-1/4 inches)
is the height of an individual container as it sits flat on its bottom."
The key here is the value of Stack Height Units, regardless of the number of bins actually used. So, if 1 box created a SHU of 2, then 2 (not 1) is subtracted from the total number of bins to calculate your base score.
MikeWherley
05-01-2003, 19:18
Originally posted by Nataku
where did you get 8?? ok, say there is 7 boxes, all just thrown about your scoring zone. so the tallest stack is 1, but now, say 6 of those 7 boxes are right side up, but one is on its side. so now that one counts as your tallest box, and does it count as 2 or 1 box? so is your score 6 or 12
Stack Height Units (SHU) = 2 (The 1 of 7 boxes on its side)
Base Score = 5 (7 total minus SHU of 2)
Total Score = 2 * 5 = 10
Winged Globe
05-01-2003, 19:24
7.6
"All containers within the alliance’s scoring zone will be worth one point each EXCEPT the containers in the tallest stack."
and
"Containers in the multiplier stack are worth zero points each."
The multiplier does depend on height.
Base score does not. There, it's just how many physical bins are not in the tallest stack.
And the answer is 12.
Joe Matt
05-01-2003, 19:31
From what I hear, if it is one bin, then it only counts as ONE. NOT two, NOT three.
Rob Colatutto
05-01-2003, 19:45
we assumed as well that if its one bin, regardless or orientation, that it counts as one, since one is technically not a stack anyway. so the score would be 6
MikeWherley
05-01-2003, 20:08
Originally posted by JosephM
From what I hear, if it is one bin, then it only counts as ONE. NOT two, NOT three.
One bin can give you a stack height of 2 since it will be above the 2-line, as measure by an "Official
Stack Height Measuring device," as stated in rule 7.6.
Mark Garver
05-01-2003, 20:10
I beleive that a stack can be considered one. What if there is only one box in the scoring position. This is the stack multiplier correct? Then it would be considered a stack and count for zero points.
MikeWherley
05-01-2003, 20:13
Originally posted by Mark G
I beleive that a stack can be considered one. What if there is only one box in the scoring position. This is the stack multiplier correct? Then it would be considered a stack and count for zero points. A 1-bin stack can have a multiplier of either 1 or 2, depending on its orientation, as measured by the pole that Woodie demonstrated during the kickoff.
MikeWherley
05-01-2003, 20:14
Originally posted by Winged Globe
7.6
"All containers within the alliance’s scoring zone will be worth one point each EXCEPT the containers in the tallest stack."
and
"Containers in the multiplier stack are worth zero points each."
The multiplier does depend on height.
Base score does not. There, it's just how many physical bins are not in the tallest stack.
And the answer is 12.
I agree that the rules are a little vague, but according to Dave Lavery, that is how the score is determined. We should see an official ruling from FIRST in the next rules update.
Mark Garver
05-01-2003, 20:26
You are correct, my mistake in explaining. However that one box stack whether it count for 1 or 2, depending on the orientation of the box will not count for any points because it is the only box in the scoring zone.
Rob Colatutto
05-01-2003, 20:56
we know it doesn't count because the highest stack only counts as the multiplier, but if you had one on its side would the multiplier be 1 or 2? i see what everyone thinks now, but do we have an concrete answer
Mark Garver
05-01-2003, 21:00
If the box is on the shorter side it would count as 1, but if the box is on the taller side then it would count for 2. Describing shorter or taller is done based on the orginal way the box is orientated.
Rusted_Grail
05-01-2003, 21:41
To make this a little more interesting, an SHU is 15 1/4 in, but a bin is 15 3/4 in. standing right side up, it reaches into the 2 bin height because it isn't nested in another bin.
Mark Garver
05-01-2003, 21:43
That will make things interesting!! Very interesting.
Alexander McGee
05-01-2003, 22:49
well, its based on height, if its on its side, it counts for 2, but not upside down, its the same height upside down, it has to be on the lid of another, well, hmm, i have to measure it, ill get back to you.
Alexander McGee
05-01-2003, 22:52
well, this will be confusing. i hope other people realize this at the competition
Rob Colatutto
05-01-2003, 22:55
that my friend, is exactly why i posted this. today at my teams meeting we spent about 15 minutes trying to figure out, and we think it counts as 1 no matter what orientation it has.....
Mike537Strategy
05-01-2003, 23:09
I want to see the rule everyone gets "Subtract the height of the tallest stack from the base score" from. I didn't see that ANYWHERE in the rules.
AJ Quick
05-01-2003, 23:10
As it states in the rules, a bin, not in the highest stack... and touching the scoring area is worth 1 point. If it is in the tallest stack, it is worth nothing. The multiplier is dependant on how tall the total stackage is...
BenSanders
06-01-2003, 02:24
I would like to argue that one bin cannot be qualified as a stack because there has been no stacking done. So no mater how tall any given bin could be it would still not be a stack and therefore not count as a multiplier. This issue does require clarification by FIRST though.
FotoPlasma
06-01-2003, 02:31
Originally posted by BenSanders
I would like to argue that one bin cannot be qualified as a stack because there has been no stacking done. So no mater how tall any given bin could be it would still not be a stack and therefore not count as a multiplier. This issue does require clarification by FIRST though.
The problem you bring up is a problem with semantics. Your definition of a "stack" seems to be something like "a group of things, at least one of which has been put on another," when FIRST's definition of a "stack" is "one or more bins/crates/boxes/what-have-yous which breaks the plane between the first and second levels of a group of nested bins, and protrudes into, at least, the second level."
If I'm wrong, or mistaken, please correct me. This is just an interpretation of your comment, and of FIRST's scoring system.
Johca_Gaorl
06-01-2003, 12:09
Originally posted by Rusted_Grail
To make this a little more interesting, an SHU is 15 1/4 in, but a bin is 15 3/4 in. standing right side up, it reaches into the 2 bin height because it isn't nested in another bin.
You know, FIRST could have saved a TON of headache if they had made the Stack Height be how many bins are in the stack. It would make the game much simpler for spectators, and for coaches trying to quickly figure out a score. I would be happy to see this rule changed to what I have just stated.
MikeWherley
06-01-2003, 13:22
there is a reason that FIRST is using the stack measuring device ... Originally posted by Johca_Gaorl
You know, FIRST could have saved a TON of headache if they had made the Stack Height be how many bins are in the stack. It would make the game much simpler for spectators, and for coaches trying to quickly figure out a score. I would be happy to see this rule changed to what I have just stated.
Then what would you do if you have a collection of bins after the wall is pushed over and you have multiple bins in a pyramed scheme ... then how do you how many bins would be in the stack? According to your idea, what would you do if you had 4 bins, 2 stacked normally and 1 bin standing tall with the final bin on top of both the 2 high and 1 high stacks.. Would you count the stack height as 2 or 3? With the FIRST rules, it would be 3, no question. And your score would be (4-3)*3=3.
Johca_Gaorl
06-01-2003, 13:44
Originally posted by MikeWherley
there is a reason that FIRST is using the stack measuring device ...
Then what would you do if you have a collection of bins after the wall is pushed over and you have multiple bins in a pyramed scheme ... then how do you how many bins would be in the stack? According to your idea, what would you do if you had 4 bins, 2 stacked normally and 1 bin standing tall with the final bin on top of both the 2 high and 1 high stacks.. Would you count the stack height as 2 or 3?
I'm not sure what exactly you mean by that, I don't see how that stack is possible.... With my idea, if it's a pyramid, say a base of 4 and 2 stacked on top, it would be 3 high, and the other three would be scoring bins.
George1902
06-01-2003, 16:08
if you had a pyramid style stack with 4 bins on the bottom in a rectangular formation and 2 more stacked up in the center where they meet, this would be the scoring break down:
first, the stack would be worth 4 SHU. the bins are not nestled, and therefore would reach into the 4th SHU.
second, how many bins are in this stack? well, there are 4 bins at the base, and 2 in the column. therefore all 6 of these bins would count for 0 points. why? well, it's been stated a few time in this thread that any bins in the highest stack are worth 0 points. it's obvious that the top 2 are in the stack, but what about the bottom 4? well, i think the refs would rule that each of the 4 are partly suporting the 2 bins on top. so all 6 of thses bins are worth 0.
soemthing to be aware of: we've seen that in some configurations 3 bins can be worth 4 SHU if unmeshed or a bin is on it's side... well, in this case, we see 6 bins worth only 4 because multiple bins are supporting another, and therefore must be considered as part of the stack.
MissDaisyGirl
06-01-2003, 22:23
am i missing something in the scoring?
i thought that the score was calculated by the stack height (based on the measuring stick) * bins not part of the stack.
what is this talk of it being based on the stack height (based on the measuring stick) * (total number of bins in zone - SHUs)? :confused:
i know this doesn't help, but my opinion on the main issue here would be that a bin on its side counts as 2 SHUs. but then again, if you just knock the wall over b4 anyone else does, you're almost guaranteed that one will fall that way, so maybe that shouldn't count... :rolleyes:
help FIRST!
Mike537Strategy
07-01-2003, 09:38
Originally posted by MissDaisyGirl
i thought that the score was calculated by the stack height (based on the measuring stick) * bins not part of the stack.
what is this talk of it being based on the stack height (based on the measuring stick) * (total number of bins in zone - SHUs)? :confused:
This is what I asked earlier on. And the first part is DIRECTLY what it states in the rules. I think the rule is GM27 or somewhere around there...
:ahh: OK LISTEN EVERYONE :ahh:
end of the match ref takes his big measuring stick. goes to the tallest hieght stack of bins on your side. remembers the number. Now that ref counts the bins on the ground NOT in that stack. remembers that number. Then he multiplies those 2 numbers and adds 25 for each robot in your alliance on the hdpe. is that clear?! its not that hard people. your all reading way too much into this.
Originally posted by Ricksta121
:ahh: OK LISTEN EVERYONE :ahh:
end of the match ref takes his big measuring stick. goes to the tallest hieght stack of bins on your side. remembers the number. Now that ref counts the bins on the ground NOT in that stack. remembers that number. Then he multiplies those 2 numbers and adds 25 for each robot in your alliance on the hdpe. is that clear?! its not that hard people. your all reading way too much into this.
There's clearly a question regarding the procedure that referees will use while scoring and an ambiguous explanation regarding what constitutes a stack, how non-nested stacks may be interpreted and how pyramids fit into all of this.
Just because you said so does not make it true. I think people have valid questions regarding many rules in this year's game. Your interpretation may or may not be the correct one. Don't be so presumptuous.
Ricksta,
I jusy want to hear what is your winning strategy that you arrived at by 2PM on Jan 4th.
Originally posted by Raul
Ricksta,
I jusy want to hear what is your winning strategy that you arrived at by 2PM on Jan 4th.
Yes Ricksta, what is this great strategy, and why did it take you so long?
FotoPlasma
07-01-2003, 18:10
Just to take this thread a little farther off of its topic...
Ricksta121: How do you know it's a winning strategy? You haven't even had a scrimmage against anyone. What if it causes you to lose every single match?
I at first I though a bin on it's side would could as 2 since it's taller than the 1 SHU marker line on the ruler, but reading the Team Update at FIRST's website, it says the multiplier is measured in WHOLE stack units, so unless a bin on its side is taller than 2 nested stacked bins, I think it's only worth a multiplier of 1.
Also it says that fractional heights will be rounded down to the nearest SHU unit.
the way they are measured is on the stick. the stick goes like this:
/ \
|
=4
|
|
=3
|
|
=2
| \--------/
| | 1Shu |
=1 \____/
/ \
|
=4
|
|
=3
|
|
=2 \ -----\
| | 2 |
| | Shu|
=1 /-----/
as you can see by my crude drawing note that any bin upright will always count as one since there is no zero on the meter. when tipped a certain way it will round down to count for 2. that should clear anything up.
Pyramids should work like this:
all bins supporting the largest stack will count zero towards base score. but the pryamid ges measured and it doesn't matter how many you use.
and about my strategy. if anyone has allied with us last year they know im Mr. Strategy. and i cant go around telling everyone the winning strategy cause then everyone would do it. so keep thinking everyone.
sanddrag
07-01-2003, 22:56
1 SHU = 14 3/4 inches. 1 bin in standard position is 15 3/4 high. So according to the SHU stick starting with 1, a bin would be above the 2 mark already.
Will someone clarify all of this really simply please?
machenti
07-01-2003, 23:14
By my understanding putting things on there sides doesn't help. The stack is rounded down. So if there was a satck of 1 and it was on its side it would lets say be 1.1 stack units. Round that down and you get 1. So a stack of 3 with a forth sideways would be 4.1 stack units and round that down, you get 4. Did I miss something in the rules?
-Ryan
since when do measurements start at one? all the rulers in my house begin with 0. the way the rules(update) read all the tubs are counted down, so unless you can stack enough tubs on their sides to add a complete SHU it does nothing to your multiplier
sanddrag
07-01-2003, 23:22
Originally posted by nwagers
since when do measurements start at one? all the rulers in my house begin with 0. the way the rules(update) read all the tubs are counted down, so unless you can stack enough tubs on their sides to add a complete SHU it does nothing to your multiplier
We just need to know for sure if the stick starts at 1 or zero.
Originally posted by sanddrag
1 SHU = 14 3/4 inches. 1 bin in standard position is 15 3/4 high. So according to the SHU stick starting with 1, a bin would be above the 2 mark already.
Will someone clarify all of this really simply please?
Imagine that the SHU measuring stick were the X-Axis of a graph. The question, really, is where is the zero of that graph. Is it at floor level, or is it one SHU below floor level.
By the previous descriptions of scoring, the zero was one SHU below floor level. FIRST has changed this so that it now rests at floor level.
<14.75" = 0 (i.e., no bin, broken bins, etc.)
14.75"-29.50" = 1 (a single bin, at 15.75", falls into this category)
etc.
This is clear when you consider why they lowered the SHU measurement to 14.75". See, if the floor were 1, it would be as you said, and a single bin would be 2 SHUs tall. But, since the floor is 0, that single bin is now 1 SHU tall. Furthermore, with an SHU of 15.75", and while rounding down, two nested bins would not be tall enough to break the 31.5" threshold and would round down to be a stack of 1.
The new SHU measurement, coupled with the change to rounding down makes a lot of sense. I get it now. I like it better this way. One bin should count as one bin, regardless of its orientation.
illumanat'i
07-01-2003, 23:31
"Fractional stack heights are rounded down to the nearest SHU"
- Team Update #1 so non-dispudable
One SHU is one bin's height
using basic logic, (which FIRST has been known to ignore):
1 bin = 1 SHU, and since everything gets rounded down, a bin on its side, 1.5 bins = 1.5 SHUs, which turns into 1 SHU...
I am NOT sure of any of this, it is just my reading of the facts, and is open to dispute, especially as the team update also says SHUs are 14 3/4" high measurements, when bins are 15 3/4" high in the rule book.
<edit> according M. Krass above this post, the measurements make sense... i didn't do the math, but it sounds like he did, and i'm currently to tired to figure it out :yikes: </edit>
sanddrag
07-01-2003, 23:34
If I can take your word that the stick starts at 0, then a ruling has been made. 1 bin will count for 1 in any orientation (which really sucks because that's not the way Woody presented it at kickoff) Can you confirm for certain that the stick starts at 0? Also, your stack will count for how many bins are in it unless you are able to stack enough on their side that it raises the stack a height of one whole bin. (highly unlikely)
Originally posted by M. Krass
Furthermore, with an SHU of 15.75", and while rounding down, two nested bins would not be tall enough to break the 31.5" threshold and would round down to be a stack of 1.
Just so no one has a heart attack, the real SHU is 14.75. Krass was saying IF right there.
illumanat'i
07-01-2003, 23:36
WHAT?? :ahh: two bins count as one? what the hell is going on, :mad:
oh, my arm, it hurts, i think i'm having a heart att----v/\v----v/\v---- ---- ----
sanddrag
07-01-2003, 23:38
Originally posted by illumanat'i
One SHU is one bin's height
No it doesn't. One SHU = one nested bin height. So one bin on the ground in standard position would break the 14.75 barrier, and be rounded down to 1.
skittle5
07-01-2003, 23:41
the way you get the scor of boxes is, count the number of boxes in your scoring area even if they are in the stack, subtract the height of the stack from the total number of bins on your side, in this case since you say that it will be a stack counting as four and there are seven boxes in your scoring area, all of these boxes are in the pyramid, so you subtract four from seven and that gives you three, and since you have a hieght of four you times three by four and the score of the pyramid is 12, trust me dave lavery is on my team
sanddrag
07-01-2003, 23:48
Originally posted by illumanat'i
WHAT?? :ahh: two bins count as one? what the hell is going on, :mad:
oh, my arm, it hurts, i think i'm having a heart att----v/\v----v/\v---- ---- ----
At this point I'd like to remind everyone to read an entire thread before posting false assumptions such as this.
skittle5
08-01-2003, 00:00
i would just like to say that if a bin is on its side then it counts as a stack of two if you have 2 bins and one on its side this will count as no points because you have a bin that counts as two and a total of two bins 2-2=0, 2*0=0 so it counts as none
sanddrag
08-01-2003, 00:04
Originally posted by skittle5
i would just like to say that if a bin is on its side then it counts as a stack of two if you have 2 bins and one on its side this will count as no points because you have a bin that counts as two and a total of two bins 2-2=0, 2*0=0 so it counts as none
No, no no no no no no. READ BEFORE YOU POST!
skittle5
08-01-2003, 00:09
david lavery is on my team and he says that if a bin is on it's side then it counts as two
sanddrag
08-01-2003, 00:11
Originally posted by skittle5
david lavery is on my team and he says that if a bin is on it's side then it counts as two
dave?
skittle5
08-01-2003, 00:13
Originally posted by sanddrag
dave?
David (dave) Lavery you know one of the peoplewho made the game, that one
sanddrag
08-01-2003, 00:15
When I said dave? I meant does he have anything to say about this. I know who he is. And now I will abide by thisYou also agree not to ..... use the forums as a real-time chat, continuing a 2-3 person conversation on for numerious posts in a short period of time.
and end this discussion.
skittle5
08-01-2003, 00:17
agreed
illumanat'i
08-01-2003, 18:47
i'm sorry, sanddrag is right, one SHU = 14.75 inches, which is one nested bin's height...
no matter how you read the rules, as they currently stand, one bin is one bin, period... my team read and reread the rules and can't see anyway to cheat this unless you keep alternating bins (one rightside up, next one upside down, etc.) for about 15 or 16 bins....
i believe this is true, unless of course FIRST decides to make a statement (hint hint ) and clear everything up...
Lauren Hafford
09-01-2003, 15:15
There is another whole thread about this that probably should be read before everyone has to repeat their answers, because it's all cleared up there:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16086
also, follow that thread to link you here for more good info on the same subject in yet another thread:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16123
illumanat'i
09-01-2003, 21:56
thank u
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