View Full Version : 14" Bar Stragtegies?
SwissCommunist
07-01-2003, 02:34
Can anyone see any great, highly useful, strategies for a robot small enough to fit underneath the 14" clearence of the bars on the sides of the ramp?
It would give you more ways to get across, but the alley is rather small and difficult for the drivers to manuver through...
It would also be difficult to get crates OVER...
AND it makes design of the robot much more compact than a robot over 14", that would ignore the whole under 14" strategy.
BUT you can get over to the other side if the ramp is somehow blocked, either by a robot or some freak crate stack *highly improbable*
THOUGH it is a 12 foot span that only one robot cannot block with great accuracy (in my estimate).
It would be a fast robot, able to smash other people's stacks, but any robot can do that.... plus it would result in low scores for everyone.
Plus if you want to have a stacker device to stack crates, it will be very difficult to fit it into that small a chassis.
My team has been discussing this thoroughly and this is what we came up with. I'd love some feedback.
N. Horton
TEAM 840
Jferrante
07-01-2003, 03:24
benefit = benefit of being able to fit under bar (why do i feel like i'm writing code?)
case 1:
Your ally's bot follows the line up to the boxes durring autonomy. Your opponents bot on your side does the same.
benefit: you flip into reverse and push your opponent off the line while your ally gets free reign of the boxes on the bridge.
case 2:
Your human players have a 6x stack in your scoring zone.
Your opponents bot on your side targets stacks over 3
benefit: you flip into reverse and push him into a wall and procede to defend the stack.
case 3:
The other team has 1 bot guarding the bridge and the other protecting there multiplier stack. They have enough boxes to pull of a win but only by a few.
benefit: you zip under the bar and shove a few boxes behind there scoring zone.
i'm sure there are more possibilities but it is 3:20 in the morning and my brain is fried from programming (i've already got 2 full programs and a variety of mini programs). Of course its to early to say if we will or wont be pursuing this avenue but it is food for thought. perhaps it would make a good poll...
Leon Machado IV
07-01-2003, 09:15
We've just decided to walk over them.
SwissCommunist
07-01-2003, 10:44
We thought of going over them too, thank you for the feedback so far.
It does seem though that a crate stacker is out of the question then for a 14" robot, or at least made very difficult.
Besides what has been already mentioned, anyone have any "secret ideas" on the 14" problem?
PhillyRobotics
07-01-2003, 10:51
you could design a forklift whose tiers would be about 12 inches tall, and have three tiers, It would be able to lift to 36 inches, and when compact, be less than 14 inche give or take a little based on your design. You would want to use a powerful slow motor to do this with, so you could lift the stack, and then drive up to a box, and lower the stack onto it, makeing the stack almost infinintly taller.
Shrey
sanddrag
07-01-2003, 11:22
The "alley" is approx. 6 feet wide in case anyone was wondering.
Jeremy Davis
07-01-2003, 11:58
Rather than a forklift, you could always design an arm that folded down on itself to make it under the bar. Something similar to Team 67's bot in 2001 as shown in the attached picture.
Greg Ross
07-01-2003, 13:07
Originally posted by SwissCommunist
Besides what has been already mentioned, anyone have any "secret ideas" on the 14" problem? If we told, they would'nt be secret, now would they?:cool:
SwissCommunist
08-01-2003, 01:01
We decided to go under so we have more possibilities and have a stacker. Thanks for the feedback all.:D
Our team also decided to go with the short stacker. Could be interesting... Should be like a car engine, you have to remove 5 other parts to fix another one :P
Ianworld
10-01-2003, 00:03
You can make quite long arms and still fit under the bar. I think you can stack 5 high from the top using a robot that can go under. (That is a 72 inch reach) Long arms with extending pieces or an over the top grabber like the picture shown above of the 2001 game. There are ways to also drop box like robots under but i'm keeping those a secret!
Originally posted by Ianworld
There are ways to also drop box like robots under but i'm keeping those a secret!
im not trying to be mean but as it is late can you tell me what you were trying to say here im trying to think of ways to "drop box like robots under" but im not haveing any luck
oreocookeee
10-01-2003, 00:34
i had a simple idea to allow a robot to be able to steel a stack of bins, and fit under the bar, but not at the same time. imagine that on one side of the robot there is a scissor mechanism powered by one piston. it compacts to only a few inches and can extend to several feet. now, if there were "fingers" for gripping the bins attached to each of the outer joints (the ones that dont form an X), the scissor mechanism could extend upward, while moving the fingers closer together at the same time. if designed right, it could easily fit within 14 inches and be able to clamp onto about four boxes. however there is one problem: the fingers would have to be extendable so that they dont break the size limit of the robot. to solve this, i imagined using another scissor thing, at right angles to the other one, and connected to the middle joints (the ones that do form an X), and a rod connected to the outer joints of that would move closer and farther from the plane of the orignial scissor to extend the fingers, similar to how to fingers move closer and away from eachother.
this is kind of a hard idea to grasp without a visual aid, but it just might work.
MRL180YTL2002
10-01-2003, 10:49
why!!!!!?????? Take at what's below....which probably will happen.
your robot [bins in alley] bar
ramp......................
[bins in alley] bar
you can't go anywhere but over the ramp...if you can !!!!!!!;)
Harrison
11-01-2003, 14:41
Originally posted by MRL180YTL2002
your robot [bins in alley] bar
ramp......................
[bins in alley] bar
you can't go anywhere but over the ramp...if you can !!!!!!!;)
That, as well as many other reasons is why we are not going under the bar.
Heck, we've even thought of dropping a couple boxes in the alley to stop people from going through.
So here's a start/design idea (and im curious how'd youd get around this problem to):
The evil Team 783 ;) has just dropped a box or 2 on either side of the bar. You have been blocked from going under (cause the boxes can't be pushed under or out of the way). What do you do?
Really, you could only do 2 things:
1. Hope the other bar hasn't been blocked (what if it has?)
2. Go over the ramp (assuming you can)
your robot bar
ramp......................
[bins in alley] bar
you can't go anywhere but over the ramp...if you can !!!!!!!;)
It isn't that difficult to pick up a box and move it.
Ken Leung
11-01-2003, 15:13
Originally posted by Clanat
It isn't that difficult to pick up a box and move it.
Or going over the ramp... The top of the ramp is sooo slipery no ordinary robot can block anyone up there, especially since its so wide. And I predict that so many are going under bar that the ramp is pretty much free :P.
jonathan lall
11-01-2003, 19:58
They'd probably have to be upside down as well, or a short robot (and we know they'd be short) could ram them and punt them into the air.
MRL180YTL2002
11-01-2003, 22:01
DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF S.P.A.M.!
RESISTENCE IS FUTILE!
We're already planning on going over the ramp. The design incorporates the necessity to fight it out and shove our way over if we need too. The trick is going to be on the top of the ramp
Nelson G
11-01-2003, 22:39
I pesonally had a short robot idea that was shot down quick by the other member but I kind of liked it. It would involve a short robot that had a conveyor whose top was 14". It then could use pneumatics to be high enough to convey the boxes over the bar. I don't know if it would work but it sounded plausible to me.
Nelson Green
Team 1108
Panther Robotics
Paola, KANSAS
Quentinfool
12-01-2003, 14:28
Originally posted by Leon Machado IV
We've just decided to walk over them.
id like to see you do that without bracing your robot on top of the bar. that would disqualify you. it could be done but is it worth the effort is the question.....
trollin1st
12-01-2003, 14:56
Since I can't find the exact clearance under the bar, is it exactly 14in? The only thing I can find is that the bar is 1 foot 4in from the floor...can anyone help? thanks
Aaron Lussier
12-01-2003, 15:00
Originally posted by Ken L
Or going over the ramp... The top of the ramp is sooo slipery no ordinary robot can block anyone up there, especially since its so wide. And I predict that so many are going under bar that the ramp is pretty much free :P.
Then according to our strategy were not any ordinary bot...:yikes:
Originally posted by trollin1st
Since I can't find the exact clearance under the bar, is it exactly 14in? The only thing I can find is that the bar is 1 foot 4in from the floor...can anyone help? thanks
It's 1 1/4" Schedule 40 Aluminum Pipe with an ID of 1.380" and a wall thickness of .140".
That'd make it 1.66" OD. Thus, the bottom of that bar should be 14.34" above the carpet.
trollin1st
12-01-2003, 15:11
thanks for the info...that helps us out greatly
MRL180YTL2002
12-01-2003, 19:26
well don't mess it up! the bar bots will find bins in their way, its almost guaranteed
Quentinfool
12-01-2003, 19:50
Someone is going to block the ramp. its a definite but if you go for limbo your going to greatly limit everything elsee you may try to do.i predict many limbo bots with snowshovels in front.
MRL180YTL2002
12-01-2003, 20:17
Not necessarily, it could fold down to go under like bots did in 2000. I didn't see any in 2001 but what I was seeing was mostly friends (both new and old) rather robots. Still we walked together down the pit area and I didn't see many that went under, much less have components that folded down to go under the bar.
Quentinfool
12-01-2003, 22:20
Im not saying yu couldnt limbo and do other things too. I just think that its gonna be a heck of a lot harder to do. the rookie teams are gonna have it tough if they try to do limbo and everything else. even more than veterans would
Jeff_Rice
12-01-2003, 22:47
What if someone had a robot that changes its orientation like that one last year that would flop over? Pneumatics could orient it in different directions. :D
Quentinfool
13-01-2003, 15:38
Yeah i saw it done but they braced the robot on top of the bar. You cant do that this year. youd have to operate each leg seperatly. it ruins the point of getting past the bar quickly and limits the moving parts for other mechanisms that you might want to use. very inefficient and not a championship strategy.
MRL180YTL2002
13-01-2003, 18:30
That is a possibility, but it would have to be one sturdy robot to take all the punishment from flopping over.
We're going under, and we have a stacker. Someone else mentioned a scissor design, which is what we're doing. But no one has talked about lifting a stack from the bottom. You only need to be able to lift a single bin from ground level to, what, 25" off the ground? Makes it way easier than trying to lift a bin to the top. Sure, it's heavier, perhaps less stabile, but we don't think that's going to be much of a problem. Can't get bins around the bars, but also, we don't think that's much of a problem. We hadn't considered people putting bins at the bars to prevent passing, but with each alley being 6 feet wide, it seems kind of unlikely that one would be completely blocked. Think of how many points you would waste putting at least three, more likely five, bins at each alley, and that would only block one way traffic. Same with king of the hill robots. Make your robot move fast enough, and it can either get around or push by any robot suctioned to the hill.
EvilInside
14-01-2003, 13:52
Team 706 has decided to become like the CIA, very secret, and one leak: me. We have decided to go with an interesting robot idea. We call it Jack in the Bin 'Bot. The outer cover of this robot looks like a bin, and then, after a while, it just pops out, scaring the other robots into doing what we tell them to. Our other idea was to be a Benedict Arnold 'bot, but the whole non-winning concept didn't work too well. ;) Actually, we decided stacking bins would be cool, controlling the ramp, and also fitting under the bar is the best way to go, of course. What conbination of these things we pick you'll find out in February.
MRL180YTL2002
14-01-2003, 19:43
Nice idea! Thanks for sharing with us. Can't wait to see it. With S.P.A.M. you'll find out in Feb. like everyone else. I'm not gonna spill the beans.
Quentinfool
14-01-2003, 20:06
Same with us. We had <ahem> issues</ahem> with sharing robot design before the end of the build. i didnt see it as a big deal though. You just have to be sure you're better at doing your strategy than others.
MRL180YTL2002
14-01-2003, 20:12
well, i think someone from our team already did that.
Quentinfool
14-01-2003, 21:28
I was just thinking, you guys are called SPAM for a reason. You guys are all over these forums. i dunno i found that amusing.
EvilInside
14-01-2003, 22:15
The genius engineers back here in the 706 building area have designed another wondrous creation: Squarebot! This robot is just a cube that moves around via weight shifting. It does a whole lot of things, just don't ask me how or what things exactly!
Oh, and I always though team SPAM just liked canned meat. . . . :P
Hi everyone.
My team has also decided to go underneath the bar and be able to stalk at the same time. All the ideas put up are great but there are many flaws to them. The fork lift it is not as efficient due to the stability that the box will have while going up in order to be placed. Now the arm which will steal the boxes put them over the bar then trying to close your arm up go underneath the bar its just not the thing to do in a two minute match. My team has combined the forklift idea and the arm and has come up with a quite interesting design.
Actually, there's a question I have been pondering about the 14 in. bar. The light must be on top and visible within 100 ft. Won't this take up most of the height limit needed to go under the bar?
BTW, wouldn't going under the bar be much faster than going up the ramp?
The light can be sunken into the bot a little, as long as it is still visible. You could also put it "in" a corner to improve visibility and save space.
tatsak42
16-01-2003, 01:27
(What if you connected the wires with a very loose "twist" tied thing, and when you run under the bar, the light gets knocked off... no damage, less height, random obstacle in the way! LOL, I'm kidding)
Our design was trying to get under the bar, but with what the subdesign groups are coming up with, I'm not thinking it'll go under very easily..
I think quite a few teams might start out trying to go under the bar, but get frustrated with what they have to leave out and scrap it.
I'm confused by all of this talk of robots needing to be less than 14" tall in some orientation to go across that mid-field barrier.
It's nonsense.
Quentinfool
16-01-2003, 11:13
for teams that cant build a box lifter , they are left with using limbo as their only advantage. if you didnt have a lifter it would be silly not to be able to limbo. it is useful early in the game or late in the game if the bridge is blocked off.
Todd Derbyshire
16-01-2003, 11:37
All of your bins belong to us!
Jferrante
16-01-2003, 12:06
Originally posted by M. Krass
I'm confused by all of this talk of robots needing to be less than 14" tall in some orientation to go across that mid-field barrier.
It's nonsense.
Your partially right. The robot doesn't NEED to be less than 14" to get across the field. Thats why theres the ramp. If your robot can make it up the incline and theres no other bot sitting at the top to stop you you can go back and forth all day. However if there is another bot at the top that you cant get past your only other way across the field is under or over the bars on each side of the ramp. In order to go under them it would require you to be 14" tall or less.
Mr Krass is quite right. There are two other ways to get to the other side of the bar. One is to go through it, which would probably get you DQed. (I don't think the light or battery will fit through the gap between the bars ;) )The other is to go over it.
Two years ago one of the Long Island teams had a robot that did this. Sorry, I don't remember which one. It was fun to watch though.
Originally posted by Todd Derbyshire
All of your bins belong to us!
It is all of your bins ARE belong to us, sigh. and yes the t-shirts are being made.
John_Maniacs
17-01-2003, 00:17
actually, (referring to the 72" reach) our robot 2 years ago, it was under 12 inches (the base of the robot) and had a reach of 9 ft+. We're thinking of kind of resurrecting that whole idea.
Also, in reference to the "advantages" of the 14" bar, the idea of hitting reverse and throwing the autonomous bot off course, is a good idea. It's definately doable, HOWEVER, if you have two bots that go backwards at each other, that will pose a conflict, a useless autonomous run.
Just food for thought, until next time,
John
Quentinfool
17-01-2003, 11:10
a waste of an automonous period is pretty costly. and fitting under the bar is quite possible it just could make other mechanisms more complex.
Under bar strategy...
Why would you go under the bar?
At the start of the match the bot could drive a distance under the bar at the right speed and push the other teams bot off course (if they are using the line for tracking). And then turn to get the other bot aloowing your teamates to knoock all crate to your side.
Also you wouldn't have to worry about getting over the slippery ramp towards the end to knock over stacks.
Remember crates are too tall to go under the bar.
MRL180YTL2002
17-01-2003, 17:19
Not if you fly off the ramp (catch air).......its 14 degree ramp....just like the ski jumps on Royal Navy Aircraft carriers for their Harrier jump jets.
Originally posted by MRL180YTL2002
Not if you fly off the ramp (catch air).......its 14 degree ramp....just like the ski jumps on Royal Navy Aircraft carriers for their Harrier jump jets.
Now, I haven't done the math to back this up, but -
I think we can safely assume that AV-8 puts out a bit more thrust than we're capable of achieving ;)
That's just a hunch.
MRL180YTL2002
17-01-2003, 20:03
Um, first the Brits use Harrier Gr. 7's (equvalent to the USMC AV-8B Harrier Plus) and Sea Harrier mark IIs. But the point is, if your robot goes fast enough, you may catch air going over the ramp.
Not if you fly off the ramp (catch air).......its 14 degree ramp....just like the ski jumps on Royal Navy Aircraft carriers for their Harrier jump jets
Hehehe I thought about this before but what is most likely going to happen is that a robot will pop a wheelie going up the ramp fast enough. Anyway this year our robot is small. Really really really small.:p
Originally posted by ChrisH
Mr Krass is quite right. There are two other ways to get to the other side of the bar. One is to go through it, which would probably get you DQed. (I don't think the light or battery will fit through the gap between the bars ;) )The other is to go over it.
Two years ago one of the Long Island teams had a robot that did this. Sorry, I don't remember which one. It was fun to watch though.
would this be 25? I know they are not a LI team, but they did go over the bar in 2001. I liked it too.
Cory
MRL180YTL2002
17-01-2003, 21:22
Originally posted by wysiswyg
but what is most likely going to happen is that a robot will pop a wheelie going up the ramp fast enough. Actually, last year going 12 feet per second into a ball we caught air. If you're going fast enough, the robot will fly. But most likely is flipping onto its back or ending up on a/the bin(s) and unable to extricate oneself.
Quentinfool
17-01-2003, 21:51
THIS GAME IS GONNA BE LOUD AND THAT IS AWESOME. I mean comeon robots getting air crashing through that wall of crates? this is gonna rock!
MRL180YTL2002
19-01-2003, 00:05
Yeah, well the pit crews are definately going to be busy with repairs.
camtunkpa
20-01-2003, 11:45
pit crews and busy never match for our team for the past three years we have been virtually break free. We expect to have a sherman tank this year and don't see much down time. As for catching air yes it's possible.....trust me!
John Larock
20-01-2003, 12:47
This year, pit crews will be even more valuable, due to the various contact scenarios in the game. I know that Team #365's pit crew is ready for the challenge. Last season, our pit crew was busy almost all the time between matches. And no matter how badly MOEHAWK was bruised and battered, it always went in the next match, ready for more bruising.
Way to go pit crew!
Now, let's hope you don't have to work as hard this season.
EvilInside
20-01-2003, 13:42
Yeah, we here at 706 always went into the next match. Our pit crews have been really good, considering last year we had a lot of sharp edges, ntm the battle axe goal grabbers made the refs a little edgy. As for catching air, it's possible but not all that useful. The power to weight ratios given out by the motors isn't that spectacular, and that's not even adding in the reduced traction on the ramp. Also, the Harriers have these little objects called wings that allow them to "catch air" and stay there. Building a 130 lb robot with the motors provided and having it catch air off the ramp is a fairly useless endeavor for the effort needed to make it happen.
sanddrag
20-01-2003, 14:03
What's interesting is our robot will have a 1" lower ground clearance than what we had for Zone Zeal. An no (sadly) it will not have pneumatics to raise and lower the ride height.:( Ground effects are still a possibility however.:cool:
We had problems with clearance when our front wheels were on the platform and our back wheels were on the ramp with our '02 bot. We discovered that our delrin (sp?) chain guides were catching on the top crosspiece on the mesh. I moved them up so we now have no problem. The robot is 36" long with 6" wheels and has a clearance of 1 3/4" with them moved up. We are going to make sure that our bot this year will clear the ramp without catching on the mesh.
Quentinfool
20-01-2003, 21:25
Better watch ur breakers. that falling wall of boxes just may be enough to trip a finicky breaker. this game is not for the poorly designed.
MRL180YTL2002
20-01-2003, 21:30
Originally posted by camtunkpa
pit crews and busy never match for our team for the past three years we have been virtually break free. We expect to have a sherman tank this year and don't see much down time. As for catching air yes it's possible.....trust me!
Yes air is possible...last year 12 ft per second into a ball....we were airborne. Oh, I have a Tiger II (or Royal Tiger with the infamous 88 of course) German tanks almost always one on one would beat Allied tanks (except for the T-34...but the T-34 has its TC also being gunner). Quantity (and airpower) beat them. Acutally, S.P.A.M.'s pit crew is actually pretty good about repair jobs so we oughta do fine there.
ChewyMasterFlex
20-01-2003, 21:33
I have a design that can hold 3 at a time and can stack up to 6-8 bins, AND can go undr the bar....
Anyone interested in me posting sketches?
That would be quite interesting. How strong would it be?
Originally posted by ChewyMasterFlex
I have a design that can hold 3 at a time and can stack up to 6-8 bins, AND can go undr the bar....
Anyone interested in me posting sketches?
Wow, thats impressive. I would love to see sketches.
Originally posted by ChewyMasterFlex
I have a design that can hold 3 at a time and can stack up to 6-8 bins, AND can go undr the bar....
Anyone interested in me posting sketches?
Sketches are a far cry from the harsh reality of real designs. In sketches, you can do anything.
EvilInside
21-01-2003, 10:10
Sketches rule! I mean, I have my helicopter robot all sketched out, but the idea was scrapped because of the whole "safety" thing involved. I decided that refs would not like whirling blades too much. . . . So, now I need to design some jump-jets for next year. . . . .
MRL180YTL2002
21-01-2003, 20:49
Its a shame that we can only order 3 penumatic clyinders....that would have been useful in launching ones bot into the air smack into the boxes....and then we all can laugh as our bot gets stuck on top of a pile of them.
ChewyMasterFlex
21-01-2003, 23:03
I have a seriously good idea that can get UNDER the bar while being able to carry 6-8 boxes, just I cant go under with boxes, and it got scrapped, not because it wasn't unreasonable, but because my team voted to go completely out of their way to make a blocker, perhaps one of the most difficult designs to make functional and useful, (and I'm designing it too!)
I don't have a scanner set up, I mean I have a old 640x480 capability scanner gathering dust in the corner of my room (still in box), and I have friends with good scanners, but I'm overcaffeinated, graphite all over my hands, and JapRap playing in the background, so I'll get you a pic sometime in the future, most likely at the half point of the build season...just so that people don't rip off my wonderful designs....Until then, my fellow caucasian designers....
EvilInside
22-01-2003, 11:40
Pshaw, blockers. Team 706 is working hard on our 'bot, and it does it all. Okay, not really, but we ARE working on it, and in prolly a week and a half I'll post some pics.
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