STOOOOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!! (please) [Archive]

Chris Hibner

09-01-2002, 13:51

Can we please STOP revealing our strategies to each other!?! If we tell everyone else our strategies, all of the robots will be the same. Part of the thrill of FIRST is to go to the competitions and to see how each of the teams decided to tackle the problem.

Not to mention, if you tell everyone a great strategy, the other teams don't go through the problem solving process on their own and they don't learn anything. It's like giving someone the solutions to an exam before the exam begins.

Besides, why on earth would you want to tell the world how to win the game? Why don't you keep quiet so you can win this year?

Last year, there were some benefits since you had the "all for one" game. This year is different. In all honesty, I would like to see this entire forum closed (or at least re-named to just "Rules").

-Chris

kevinw

09-01-2002, 13:56

I disagree. I think the strategy portion is good, but either A) only after the build period is completed (once the regionals begin) or B) after nationals are completed, where all the discussion is hypothetical.

But I wholeheartedly agree that it takes away the fun of brainstorming and designing a robot to simply read the "best" strategy or "best" design on a forum at this early stage.

Kris Verdeyen

09-01-2002, 15:08

I disagree. The free and open exchange of ideas is a good thing.

First of all, your "exam" analogy is incorrect. No one, not even the game's designers, know what the best strategy is, for the simple reason that the game hasn't yet been played. The result of all of these strategies flying around is simply that the overall level of play is improved, because every team has considered more possible strategies.

It's also very helpful for the rookies to see the kinds of things that other teams are coming up with, so that they can see what kinds of things experience causes people to consider.

Also, though, noone is forcing anyone to post - if a team has a great strategy or design that they want to keep to themselves, they can. In fact, that's what I'm doing. : )

Greg Ross

09-01-2002, 15:49

Thanks Verdey, I knew I was going to have to respond if someone didn't express my position before I had a chance.

Consider: How graciously professional is it to keep secrets just so you can whomp on unsuspecting rookies? (I say not at all!)

kevinw

09-01-2002, 15:52

Wouldn't it be funny if a rookie team spent a couple weeks determining what they believe is the best strategy, but my veteran team simply found it on the forum in a day or two and copied it. What a great lesson that would be for my team's students. Don't run through all the scenarios on your own, simply look at what other teams have done, and take it for yourself.

Of course, designing isn't the only science and technology related career FIRST hopes to inspire, but I believe the experience is somewhat tainted if your team runs with a design that the team didn't originate. I've seen so many posts about how much better a student-run operator team / coaching team is. What if the students have no input on the design, but merely take it off the forum? Better yet, what if the students have no input on the design because a mentor simply takes it off the forum?

Let's all try to come up with our own solution that we believe is best. Beatty had a great design last year. It was clearly one of the best designs and strategies. How enjoyable would the competition have been if they spent the first week posting about their strategy and robot? How many teams would have simply said "Well, I guess that makes sense. Let's do that." Not quite the learning experience and spirit of the competition that was intended, IMHO.

Chris Hibner

09-01-2002, 16:00

Originally posted by gwross
Thanks Verdey, I knew I was going to have to respond if someone didn't express my position before I had a chance.

Consider: How graciously professional is it to keep secrets just so you can whomp on unsuspecting rookies? (I say not at all!)

Gracious professionalism is about:

1) being good sports
2) helping teams with technical issues
3) not intentionally damaging someone else's creation
4) always trying your hardest

How is everyone devising our own strategies against gracious professionalism? I have no problems with helping the rookie teams wire their motors, program their controllers, attach a shaft to a gear, or so forth; but to say that keeping a strategy secret is against gracious professionalism is way off base (and a bit insulting).

The biggest part of the FIRST experience is the problem solving. "How does our team tackle this problem?"

If everyone is giving away their solutions to the problem, teams will just copy other teams. That's not problem solving, nor is it inspirational. I just made my original post since I think it's better (and more inspirational) for all teams to come up with their own strategies rather than copy off of others.

The whole "if you don't want to read it - don't" doesn't fly. It's like putting a cake in front of a kid and telling him he can't eat it. No matter how hard he tries, eventually he's going to eat it. The solution is to not put the cake there in the first place - in other words, force the kid to make his own cake and learn something in the process.

Chris Hibner

09-01-2002, 16:07

Originally posted by gwross
Thanks Verdey, I knew I was going to have to respond if someone didn't express my position before I had a chance.

Consider: How graciously professional is it to keep secrets just so you can whomp on unsuspecting rookies? (I say not at all!)

One last point:

I think the best experience our team ever had is when we once got whompped by a veteran team. It took our thinking to another level and made our team much better.

Another analogy for this point is the kid touching a hot stove: you can tell them why they shouldn't, but until they feel the "whomp" of the hot stove, they won't really learn.

It's not that I'm advocating that all rookie teams should get "whompped". If the team really does a great job and solves the problem(s) really well, then that's great. But if people keep handing things to the rookies on a silver platter, they're not really learning anything.

As a current graduate student in engineering, it's a constant theme that the professors keep bringing up: "you need to struggle with the problem". They always say that's where the real learning is. I just think that every team learns more when they struggle through a problem. I'm just advocating that we let them struggle instead of handing things to them.

kevinw

09-01-2002, 16:22

One point that could be made for disclosing designs and strategies would be to make the field more competitive, and give everyone equal footing.

Just think how much more competitive last year's competition would have been had the TechnoKats posted their awesome auto-balance software code during the first week.

If you think that nobody would have copied that code line for line, especially after seeing how well it worked, I believe you're a bit naive. Does it truly make the game better if everyone has the same robot?

One of the best things about this year's game is that the scoring is easier to understand, making it more enjoyable for the average person to watch. You lose that added enjoyment if it's a continued re-run of the same types of robots doing the same things over and over and over because everyone is using the same strategy.

Rick

09-01-2002, 16:47

Everybody listen to me. No one is forcing you to read these strategies. If you want to devise your own strategies dont come to the site. If you're having trouble with strategy read the forums. Just don't complain about reading something that you dont have to read.

Kris Verdeyen

09-01-2002, 17:40

The point is not that no one is forcing people to read the strategies, it's that no one is forcing people to POST the strategies. If someone wants their idea secret, it's a very simple process to not post the idea, but I think that those with the benefit of experience are doing a good service by posting their ideas.

How many "remember the puck" statements are in this board? A rookie, thinking that there's no way a robot could pull the three goals, couldn't "remember the puck" because he (and I) have no idea what the puck is. The point is that the ideas posted are not good designs in themselves, but means for those with more experience to help other teams come by good designs. Which is a graciously professional way to act. Does that mean that you're thumbing your nose at GP by not contributing? No.

Your engineering professor is right to say that you need to struggle with the problem. But struggling with a problem does not mean beating your head against the wall of a labratory. It means first of all, go to the library, see what others have done, and then come back and beat your head against the wall of the labratory. This forum is simply the library.

And finally, if the Technocats had posted their code, people would have used it. (Of course, by the time everyone's seen how well it works, it's too late.) But no one is posting code, or Autocad drawings, or electrical schematics. The Techocats would have posted "How's about we use the gyro to balance the bridge." And everyone would have had to decide on their own whether that was what they wanted to do.

Chris Hibner

10-01-2002, 08:44

Originally posted by verdeyw
If someone wants their idea secret, it's a very simple process to not post the idea,

That's actually not true. What if my team comes up with a great strategy and wants to keep it secret. Then team XXX comes up with the same great strategy and posts it all over these boards. Now everyone knows about it. That would make me a little bit upset. I don't want some other team spilling our strategy to the world.

Generally, there are always at least two teams with every idea. I don't like that one team with a good idea can blow it for the other team with that same idea.

Kris Verdeyen

10-01-2002, 11:28

You're really reaching here. If another team came up with the same idea as you did, and decided to share it, that is their prerogative. The idea (obviously) wasn't unique to begin with, so what's the problem?

Dave Hurt

10-01-2002, 11:55

The point is researching your own ideas and justifying them on your own vs. taking them off the board because a team posts what they're doing.

Kris Verdeyen

10-01-2002, 15:35

The point is that, presumably, no one taking part in this discussion has taken an idea for a robot in whole off of the board. Why are you so quick to assume that others will? IMNSHO, reading on the message boards what other teams are doing is "researching your own ideas". This resource allows you to be able to formulate defensive strategies against other team's robots.

kevinw

10-01-2002, 17:31

Originally posted by verdeyw
The point is that, presumably, no one taking part in this discussion has taken an idea for a robot in whole off of the board. Why are you so quick to assume that others will? IMNSHO, reading on the message boards what other teams are doing is "researching your own ideas". This resource allows you to be able to formulate defensive strategies against other team's robots.

Actually, as this resource is being used currently, it allows you to be able to formulate offsensive strategies for your own robot.

Again, if Beatty had posted their strategy for last year's competition, they would have effectively posted their design as the two were completely dependent.

What is the point of a robot design competition if everyone has the same strategy, and hence the same design?

Kris Verdeyen

10-01-2002, 17:42

Originally posted by kevin_308

What is the point of a robot design competition if everyone has the same strategy, and hence the same design?

There isn't any.

Fortunately, simply because someone reads a strategy online doesn't require them to use it. And, believe it or not, some teams, (mine included) _did_ have the same strategy as Beatty, but their (and our) design was far different from theirs and, ultimately, less successful in the competition.

Determining a strategy is important, don't get me wrong, but helping another team with strategy formulation is no less valid than helping with technical issues.

kevinw

10-01-2002, 17:50

Originally posted by verdeyw

There isn't any.

Fortunately, simply because someone reads a strategy online doesn't require them to use it. And, believe it or not, some teams, (mine included) _did_ have the same strategy as Beatty, but their (and our) design was far different from theirs and, ultimately, less successful in the competition.

Determining a strategy is important, don't get me wrong, but helping another team with strategy formulation is no less valid than helping with technical issues.

There were very few teams that had the strategy of both balancing two goals and being in the endzone. And had that strategy been posted it surely would have had a significant effect on the designs in the game. As opposed to helping with technical issues, which would not have effected the designs in the game, but merely the implementation of those designs. Determining a strategy can be the single most important part of the design phase and direction, and for this reason it is MUCH less valid than helping with technical issues.

turbidum

10-01-2002, 18:06

I disagree with the person who posted this topic. I think that the exchange of ideas is what first is all about. Also, there is NO WAY that all of the robots, or even two, will be the exact same. That is the whole fun of the game: designing a robot (along with strategy). Also, unless you print the blueprints to your robot online, there will be no possible way for people to have the same robot. Even robots trying to accomplish the same task (just look at last year's robots) did not look exactly the same.

I'm just saying that the sharing of ideas is a good thing. How would you feel if you came up with a killer strategy, but never saw one flaw, and got to competition, and got killed. That is NOT fun (we found that out fast). So, we should share ideas so that not only can we inspire people, but also so we can learn why our ideas DON'T work (this seems to me to be the reason for Chief Delphi's site).

kevinw

10-01-2002, 18:19

kevinw

10-01-2002, 18:20

Originally posted by turbidum
...I think that the exchange of ideas is what first is all about.

...How would you feel if you came up with a killer strategy, but never saw one flaw, and got to competition, and got killed.

I would feel better getting killed than if I had a killer strategy that was exposed to everyone, thereby nullifying it.

While the exchange of ideas is good, the exchange of robot designs and strategies at this point effectively ruins the game.

RyanMcE

10-01-2002, 19:07

I don't think its a good idea to stop people from sharing their ideas. Even if some killer strategy is thought up and posted, not everyone is going to try to do it.

Last year, for example, I did think of trying to balance both goals will not on the bridge. However, my team felt that this was too technically difficult to achieve, so we went for a robot that balanced both goals while on the bridge. It didn't work for us too well either. But the point is, just because a killer strategy is out there, FIRST is still mostly about implementation.

I don't care if your strategy is two grab all 40 balls on the field and all three goals in the first ten seconds, because I don't think you can build a robot that can do that.

If you have problems with the forums, stay away. Far, far away. But I suppose the original post did have one positive effect in the eyes of its poster: all the time spent reading and posting here has not been spent ripping off killer strategies from the boards.

Long live the forums! Long live free exchange!

~Ryan

fs_2002

10-01-2002, 22:13

Hi guys... i'm a rookie tech guy on a rookie team. We started work on our robot in design and trying to understand the rules this past sunday when we first got our kit. First off, i just want to say that the magnitude of what we're trying to accomplish in 6 weeks is just almost more than our team of 20 can handle. We just got started on getting the control system to work today. Basically, i've been reading up on this forum to be able to tell what others have done in years past and what they're doing this year. I by no means care to copy someone else's strategy or code or schematics. That wouldn't be any fun for myself or my team. Also, being new to all of this, we know well enough that if we were to copy someone else's idea would be dumb because a novice team wouldn't be able to fabricate something as well as the team we were to copy. I am all for this sharing of ideas... if you're worried about someone comming up with your idea and posting it, then i'm sorry... come up with a better one if yours is the same as another's.
~Bobb
Team 804

Kris Verdeyen

10-01-2002, 22:32

Originally posted by kevin_308

Actually, I don't believe CONDOR (team 118's robot, that is) had the ability to balance two goals from ground, and it was clearly not designed with this strategy in mind if it could.

Now you're hitting close to home. In fact, we designed to do just that, and we accomplished it quite a few times (ok, mostly in practice). The big difference were the additional arms that Beatty's robot brought down to push the second goal, whereas we relied on our driver to push the second goal with the first one. But like I said, just because we had that strategy in mind doesn't mean that our robot looked the same as Beatty's (it didn't) and it doesn't mean that we designed and built it as well as Beatty.

There is no 1-to-1 correspondance between strategies and designs.

Suneet

10-01-2002, 23:04

My team is sill perfecting the plan for our robot, and so we have the potential to do some copying, to just do what we think everyone else is doing. However, our thinking is, “How do stand out if that's what most people will do?"

We're rather ambitious for second years (although we were technically in 2000 with a different number but the same name), and instead of going with the crowd, by knowing what the crowd is thinking, we'll try to come out on top of it.

On the other hand, if you were a rookie team, it might help to know what people expect other robots to do, so you'll at least be somewhat competitive and helpful. You might also get some experienced advice about what probably won't work.

So the exchange of ideas of idea is more likely to help people plan, and not as likely to be a source to copy from.

Just my $.02

joe_balint

11-01-2002, 03:52

Implementation is the key! There is only a limited subset of strategies, so most teams should hit on almost all of them with in a week or two of the kick-off (if they spend time thinking about strategy ;) But implenting the idea? Now the fun begins! There are literally tons of implentations that can be figured out, design or decided upon. But, when you hit on the killer strategy, you have to ask yourselves (as a team) Do you believe you can do it? do you have the nuts (and bolts) to try and go for it? Can you make the design work and be the best? That's where the true genius comes in and what FIRST is about! I believe in the exchange of ideas and I think posting them is no big deal. Having said that, you won't see my team's up on this site anytime before week 5! -Joe

Todd Lawless

11-01-2002, 09:01

I totally disagree, I know for a fact that there is more than one way to complete a task. I also know that the sky is the limit. Somebody back me up on this one!! Please!! The real push behind F.I.R.S.T. is the innovation. Why would Dean make a game he knows very well that will not produce diversity in robot design?????? I think that the Dean is smarter than we all think.

Like I said before, strategies and good robots come not only from the 'what' (task on hand) but also on the "how". Have fun with this year's game, be innovative, you can accomplish things you're parents would never have dreamed of at your age.

Agreed?????