The Best Idea Ever

[xMATTthe]

So i thought of the best idea ever, but then i thought that there must be something wrong with it becuse it hasn't been used before and i've never heard of the idea. This would work for any competition with the 2 vs. 2 scenario.

Couldn't u just build a big unfolding wall and completely block out the opponents human players' field of vision? i can't find a rule against it and i can't think what a huma player can do about it, they could try and use there robot to move yours out of the way, but how would they know which way they are going, they can't see their bot?

And without seeing your bot it is extremely hard to pick up boxes or to know what zone your robot is in or if it is on top of the bridge none-the-less. And if your robot set up the wall than your alliance would have there way with the rest of the field and be able to move buckets and gain king of the hill points without resistance!

the wall would just be 12 feet wide to cover that side of the human player station and be like five feet tall to cover the entire plexiglass veiwing surface. they can't look around it cause then they get DQ'd for intentionally stepping out of the human player box and they can't bring a ladder or anything because the control station has to be on the mount they give u for it, which is only like 3 or 4 feet high or so.

If this idea really doesn't work, or if there are some rules against it, i would really like to know!

please give me your ideas, and if it proves this idea is as perfect as i believe it is now, it was my idea remember... MY IDEA... MATT from team 279's IDEA... lol

[Jeremy Roberts]

That would go against everything gracious professionalism stands for. I believe that this idea comes up yearly and I think FIRST has delt with it with a "no that is not allowed (GP)."

[xMATTthe]

and BTW.....

I want credit for this!!! lol

[Joe Menassa]

...yea i thought of that last year.. the thing is that is just NO FUN! also it doesnt really display gracious professionalism..

..who am i to talk.. we are the team that used a flipper back in 97...it was legal

[xMATTthe]

i haven't heard of it before and i don't know whats not graciously professional about it. It is just realizing the truth of robotics, the mind is more important than the physical matter.
So obviously the best way to excell at the game is to win out in the more important battle, the mind and it's control. i just don't see how this goes against FIRST. i mean, if there were rules against it or something, but there is nothing in any part of first rules or other documents by first that says this idea is a bad idea or completely is not what first wants? I mean, really, its just another stratagy. i would like to know how this goes against gracious professionalismm or any other part of FIRST.

[Doug]

i thought of that last year but im fairly sure there was a rule against it at the time something along the lines of devices constructed to impair the vision of your opponents but that might just be a battle bots rule i get these things confused.

[xMATTthe]

i agree, it is no fun, but i still don't know what it goes against as far as gracious professionalism. what, is a robot that just always beats the opponent against gracious professionalism.... if so, beaty should be eliminated from first because there robots are strictly superior to everyone else's every year.(well, at least the last two, thats how long i've been doing this, and i heard they did the same thing previously)

[Ricky Q.]

Originally posted by xMATTthe
If this idea really doesn't work, or if there are some rules against it, i would really like to know!

please give me your ideas, and if it proves this idea is as perfect as i believe it is now, it was my idea remember... MY IDEA... MATT from team 279's IDEA... lol


No....this was asked last year, and is just totally against what the game is, you could build basically the same robot every year, with a screen.....whats the point of that?

[shaddoe]

there's not a rule against stacking the crates right in front of the opposing alliance's driver stations to block their view is there?

[Useless member]

What about just spray painting the other sides window. :)

[EStokely]

I believe you would be intentionally interreing with the controls of a robot (like radio jamming)

I don't have the rule book in front of me but I believe it is worded in such a way as to show thatyou wouldn't be able to do this

(And yea I suspect many teams have considered this idea over the years)

[JVN]

In the past I believe that FIRST has specified in the rulebook that "intentionally obscuring" the other alliance's vision is against the rules. However this year this rule may have been left off purposely for one main reason.

Has anyone stood in the drivers station and tried to look over the ramp to the far side of the field?

Now imagine how it would be with 4 - 5' robots on top of it. (or a ramp blocker bot)

I think it will be almost impossible for teams to obey this rule.

In responce to your "curtain" robot:
I feel that FIRST would disallow it in the spirit of gracious proffesionalism. However near as I can tell, no specific rule exists limiting this.

[Tom Schindler]

Look at the "Part use" flow chart in on page 27 of the manual... to check if it is legal.....

i think this would violate Rule M9

Tom

[MacZealot]

I *Think* it's legal, but even if it is, that's a pretty dirty thing to do, I mean, it won't help your reputation any.

It's like running in to your opponent's zone and knocking down all of the boxes.. it's fine to do, but won't make the other teams think highly of you.

The whole idea is to have all of your points on your own, you get the stack, take it to your zone, protect it, and win.

Meh, maybe I just don't see the idea yet.

[Gadget470]

You aren't the first one to think of it. You havn't seen it for a good reason. Whether or not it's legal I don't know but I don't think any alliance that had previously been nulled by your wall would want to pick you as a partner. For more than just that reason.

If you are impeding the view of your opponents, your alliance must do all the work in controlling the score. Not many teams want to do that

[bigqueue]

Originally posted by xMATTthe
and BTW.....

I want credit for this!!! lol

I don't think you can claim credit for this unless you thought of it *at least* 3 years ago....

For the past 3 years that I have helped teams out with First, it ALWAYS come up in our brainstorming sessions.

I welcome you to the swelling ranks of people who have posed this strategy.

[Ian W.]

as far as i'm concerned, that idea falls in along with everything from EMPs to flame throwers. it's simply a bad idea from the beginning. i know, that if i was a driver, and a team did that to me, as soon as the match was over, i would go and speak to the referees about the legallity of such a device. and when you have about 20 teams complaining that your team is completely negleting the idea of GP, then i'm pretty sure something would be done about it. also, consider what would happen after your first match. apart from everyone booing and throwing stuff (like tomatoes and other rotten fruits) at you, any team that went up against you would do one thing. stop your robot from getting to the driver's station.

that's not too hard, if you think about it. i could make my robot "rush the ramp", come flying across the field in a dead run for the driver's station (my driver's station). then, as soon as i hear, and feel, a huge smash as the robot comes into the driver's station, i turn, and ram you until i can make you move. it's not something i would want to do, but under the circumstances, it seems to be the only good idea at the moment. of course, since your idea of blocking the player station obviously isn't "the best idea ever" i don't think i'll have to worry about the matter much.

[Noelle]

true it may be vaugly legal but it would be boring. also very breakable and people would figure out a way to ram into you.

[Mark Hamilton]

This idea comes up every year. FIRST has ussually responded with something like "You are not allowed to intentionally block your opponents view." It'd be rather silly anywa, and I have a feeling the drivers would respond by bashing your robot into small pieces every chance they got. The whole concept, while not against the rules yet, is against gracious proffesionalism and sportsmanship. I think any team that made a bot like that would feel themselves very unwelcome at a FIRST competion.

[Gadget470]

true it may be vaugly legal but it would be boring. also very breakable and people would figure out a way to ram into you.

Or "accidentally" trip in your pit and take off your drive wheels

[xMATTthe]

I BELIEVE SOME OF THESE ARE GOOD RESPONSES AND THAT IT *MIGHT* SOMEHOW GO AGAINST CRACIOUS PROFESSIONALISM SOMEHOW, THOUGH I DON'T KNOW HOW, BUT I HAVE RULED IT OUT ANYWAYS DUE TO THE FUN FACTOR.
BUT PERSONALLY I HAVE NO IDEA HOW RULE M09 OR WHATEVER WOULD HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS IDEA, SINCE THE WALL IS A FUNCTIONAL PART OF THE BOT, AND NOT A DECORATION. ALSO I WOULD LOVE THE ODD'S OF LETTING MY ALLIANCE BEING FULLY FUNCTIONAL EVEN IF THEY CAN ONLY MOVE AGAINST TWO BOTS THAT DON'T KNOW WHAT DIRECTION THEY'RE GOIN OR WHAT THEY'RE DOING AT ALL.
AND THIS DESIGN IN NO WAY INTERFERES WITH RADIO CONNECTION OR CONTROL OF THE ROBOT EITHER, AND I BELIEVE IF THIS IDEA WAS USED ONCE THEY WOULD PROBABLY BAN IT AND IT WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED IN THE FUTURE BY A SIMPLE RULE CHANGE LIKE "CANNOT INTENTIONALLY HAVE THE STRATEGY TO BLOCK OPPONENETS VISION." BUT SINCE THAT RULE DOESN'T EXIST YET I DON'T SEE HOW U COULD DO THIS
AND WHOEVER SAID KNOCKING OUT OPPONENTS BINS WOULD LOSE U RESPECT, ALL I GOTTA SO TO THAT IS..... WHAT???
I THINK THAT WOULD BE VERY GOOD, I KNOW IF I SAY A ROBOT THAT COULD PREVENT THE OTHER TEAM FROM SCORING I WOULD COMPLETELY LOVE TO BE PARTNERED WITH THEM AND I WOULD HAVE PROFOUND RESPECT FOR THEM. JUST LIKE FOOTBALL OR OTHER SPORTS, DEFENSE IS JUST AS IMPORTANT IF NOT GREATER THAN THE OFFENSE. EXAMPLE: TAMPA BAY BUCANEERS HAVE NO OFFENSE, YET THEY ARE COMPETEING IN THE NFC CHAMPIONSHIP TO THE SURPRISE OF NO ONE AND ONLY IGNORANT PEOPLE DON'T RESPECT THEIR D.

[xMATTthe]

hmm.... what are u people thinking???!?
"accidentally" breaking any robot is a way grosser violation of FIRST than anything my idea even flirts with. And, BTW three years ago this idea would have been completely usless with the co-opertition game. ur team should learn what and when to brainstorm.
And i seriously doubt that your robots autonomous mode could beat mine in getting to your drivers station. where yours has to go around, then up the ramp, find its way down, and then wait till autonomous period is over so u could find where our robot is heading, where as ours just has to go about 20 ft straight forward and boom, done.
Also, i just don't understand why your robot with arms and other accesories would simply be able to push us out of the way without us being able to fight back.... in fact, the way i remember it, things seemed to be quite opposite at last years competition. Robots being pulled sideways, wheels spinning uselessly against carpet not geting a catch on friction, even the occasional robot arm being ripped off... yeah, we did that, no exxageration. the only bot in the whole competition last year that could push us was beaty. So why would it neccassarily be different this year???
anyways, ur completely missing the point, even if u did find a way to move us, then what stopps us from moving back??? I guess u could keep fighting with us for position but if your doing that than we are still accomplishing half of our goal by keeping your team occupied and then it would be just our alliance team against your alliance team.... still even odds, and thats if us succeed in finding us without being able to see us in comparison to your robot, and then being able to move us.... i just don't se the problem.
and as for it not being durable??? u can make pretty much anything pretty durable, you could make it outta 1/4 inch alluminum or something. sure it could very well could brake a couple times..... so we fix it, duh.
And once again as for the Accidental braking it.... our robot last year didn't brake once.... even minor things. Seriously, nothing. not in regionals or nationals. i don't think u could brake a thing on that robot without some kinda sludge hammer or power tool.... and seriously, it would take a sludge hammer... a ball peen wouldn't do a thing. I think we know how to build durable things.

[Mark Hamilton]

Please don't use caps-lock, and spell check your comments. It's just good manners.

[Doug]

Originally posted by Mark Hamilton
Please don't use caps-lock, and spell check your comments. It's just good manners.
didn't you get the memo writing everything in caps makes what a person says correct

[jeremy562]

Let's put it this way.

How would you feel if someone did that to YOUR alliance?

THAT's what Gracious Professionalism is all about.

[xMATTthe]

yes, i would me kind of mad and peeved that i couldn't do anything...... but get this
THAT IS THE NATURAL REACTION TO LOSING

or did you not know that?

And have u ever gone up against beaty? its the same thing, u get meat and there is nothing you can do about it. In fact, beaty allows you even less options. I am a third year driver on our team so i think i have a good idea of how it would feel, and i can't see how it would be worse than being beat by one of beaty's bots.

and BTW im not applying for a job interview, just trying to get a message accross, i really don't care about caps lock, spelling, or grammer.

[Alavinus]

Even though you are not applying for a job interview, bad grammar hampers your attempt to convey your point.
Anyway- My question to you is this: Let's say that your strategy is not banned this year and your team were to build this obstacle. Do you really want to win that way?
Yes, you probably would win, but this competition is not about winning. Yes, winning is nice, but would you really feel good knowing that you did not compete in the spirit of competition?
I know I would much rather lose to an alliance in a heated match than win by causing their robot wander around on the field. Winning or even losing in a close match is much more exciting for everybody to watch than a complete blowout. Who would really want to watch a super bowl where the score is 50-0?
Just some thoughts
~Andy

[Gadget470]

"accidentally" breaking any robot is a way grosser violation of FIRST than anything my idea even flirts with. And, BTW three years ago this idea would have been completely usless with the co-opertition game. ur team should learn what and when to brainstorm.

I originally made the "accident" comment as a joke...

The idea of Gracious Professionalism to me is to exhibit a behavior that helps as many people as possible in the most efficiant and self-less way. Your "Best Idea Ever" idea isn't the best because it does nothing for the promotion of FIRST. The "Best Idea" should be one that a team can take to a robot demo and inspire people who wouldn't dream of going into engineering, robotics, etc.

I would be disappointed to see a robot wander over to a wall and put up a shield. Big deal, holy engineering batman.

And as to the 3 years ago, that was the Trough year. That was a 2 v 2

[OneAngryDaisy]

That's an interesting idea.. You'd probably get some success in the qualifying rounds- but in the elims your robot wouldn't be as effective

anyone remember Chief Delphi's bot three years ago? It would climb on the troughs and crawl from side to side, stealing balls- it was obviously the best robot in the competition, but I heard that they lost because of defense- even the best bots can lose..

[Gadget470]

why would you need to go under the bar with that strategy? (You start on the opponents drive side

[OneAngryDaisy]

Originally posted by Gadget470
why would you need to go under the bar with that strategy? (You start on the opponents drive side

my bad.. i was thinking about going-- never mind, that happens when you stay up late studying for final exams, neglecting sleep..

ah.. now, if you look at it at that perspective...

imagine a four-foot tall hat with a mirror at the top- that'd allow you to look over the wall, i doubt it'd be illegal since FIRST doesn't have any dress codes, and it's not interfering with the robots..

[Gadget470]

I believe that would qualify as "special equipment or clothing"

[OneAngryDaisy]

GM6-Special equipment and/or clothing will only be allowed on the playing field for those who demonstrate a need based on physical disability

you got me twice, gadget- good job..

a third try- what about someone who's so small they can't see over the control booth panel? I remember seeing some middle school kids last year having trouble seeing over

However, FIRST would probably give them a crate to stand on..

[Gadget470]

http://www.berks.com/cool/GPAX-2A.jpg

Goes with the game's theme.. to an extent

[jeremy562]

yes, i would me kind of mad and peeved that i couldn't do anything...... but get this THAT IS THE NATURAL REACTION TO LOSING or did you not know that?

I think you're missing the point.

Beating someone because you have a better machine and/or better drivers is one thing. Beating someone because of a cheap tactic like BLOCKING THEIR VISION is something entirely different.

If Beatty can control matches because of superior engineering and drivers, all power to them. They are an inspiration to other teams, and they have my respect!

[Ken Leung]

Needless to say, your opponent will do whatever they can to get your robot out of their sight... That includes driving their robot blindly into your robot that's blocking their driver at full speed. Since you blocked their vision, you cannot say they are intentionally attacking your robot since they do not know where their robot is heading in the first place. You better build a robot so strong that can take all the hits, or 3 or 4 rounds into the competition you are going to have a dead robot.

On a more positive reason for not doing this... If you have to block your opponent's vision to win the competition, then I say you learn nothing from the competition at all. The competition is supposed to teach you gracious professionalism, and it is a program that allow you to challenge your mind and your hand in a short period of time. If you have to use these short cuts to disable your opponent's team just to win the championship, then you don't deserve to win at all. You are only unfairly taking away other's chance to win the game, and you are wasting your's and everyone else's time this way.

Think more about this, and maybe... just maybe you will understand the spirit of the competition. If not, then you are in this for the wrong reason.