View Full Version : Help with driver selection
LBK Rules
02-02-2003, 19:40
Are there any tools/games to discern how well driving candidate's reflexes respond?
seeing that your a rookie team (judging from your high team number) you don't have an old robot to use for driver trials (which is what we usually do). what we did our first year was just to put up some cones on the floor, whip out an RC car, and have people compete for the fastest time around the track. anybody really can become a driver - the key is nonstop practice once you have the robot built.
LBK Rules
02-02-2003, 20:07
We are a rookie team, but we do have two vet. members, including Sachiel7.
Yan Wang
02-02-2003, 20:44
Get a Bop-It... it tests reflexes for the driver and also the controller.
Gui Cavalcanti
02-02-2003, 21:12
Once you have a working drive base, figure out who wants to be driver. Give them 2 minutes of practice on the robot each, to be fair.
Now, get someone who is skilled with a remote control car (and does not want to be driver). Have them drive the car around a large area, and have the drivers follow it with the real robot. It's a good test of reaction times, handling the robot's speed, and (if it's tall) how to react to a tipping robot :)
Hope that helps!
Get a beach-ball and a few RC cars. See who can maintain the most control of the car. Something like one-on-one RC car soccer. :P
Clark Gilbert
02-02-2003, 22:34
We always use the competiton as a way to test our 3 best drivers/operators/human players. It seems to work well for our team, although it might not for others (not sure). This year i'm not sure how we are going to do it though since we are doing 3 regionals, and each student is only allowed to attend 2. I guess we shall see.
Aaron Lussier
02-02-2003, 22:42
When you get you drive drain Ironed out, find a large flat area, i.e Gym, Confrence room. Set up some bins in a course, and see who can navagate through the quickest, with out hitting the boxes, give penalites for later rounds after youve gotten down to the three best drivers.
I'd shy away from trying to figure out who has the best reaction times. Ya, being able to react quickly is great. Things happen fast, but they don't happen that fast.
Good aspects for a driver are:
A calm attitude. The driver is on stage, in front of hundreds (thousands) of people. If they can't handle that kind of stress, they won't drive well.
Knowledge of the game. Scores swing quickly, and being able to evaluate the field is something every drive member has to be able to do.
Knowledge of the 'bot. The driver needs to know why the bot does what it does. They should be able to tell by the feel of it if something is wrong, and have a good idea of what it is. If something breaks, the drivers should be able to figure out if they can keep going or stop.
Being able to put thier brain on the bot. Sounds odd, but its true. The best advice I ever got when I was driving was 'Stop thinking about it, just drive! It sounds corny, but the bot has to become just a natural extension of the driver. Getting from one end of the field to the other has to be as natural as walking from one end to the other. This comes part from practice and part from natural ability. So give perspective drivers as much time on RC cars as you can.
In general, the drive team members should all get along together. If youdon't work with your partner, no matter how good you are alone, you'll do poorly. These things take a team to build and a team to drive.
Thats just what stands out in my mind.
-Andy A.
Jeremy_Mc
03-02-2003, 01:07
Practice with the edurobot until you can get your big bot built :)
It's better than no practice at all
*jeremy
HolyMasamune
03-02-2003, 02:16
Originally posted by Jeremy_Mc
Practice with the edurobot until you can get your big bot built :)
It's better than no practice at all
*jeremy
Yes, instead of buying an RC car or some type of minicar, build the edurobot and make a mini version of the competition and see who can maneuver thru the obstacles the best.
Ben Mitchell
03-02-2003, 06:13
There was an old game called "Shooting Gallery" that tested how fast you could click things - pop up targets, moving targets, etc.
Oh wait, that would be for programmers or database people like me.:D
As far as drivers go, I'd go with the above suggestion of an RC car or EduRobot.
More important, however, is the chemistry between the coaches and the driver. If your driver is a stubborn idiot, it doesn't matter how well she pilots. On the flip side, if your pilot is decent, but can make quick judgements and listen to the coaches, you have a winner.
Alex Forest
03-02-2003, 08:13
...make sure your driver knows the rules...sounds obvious, but you'd be surprised....
Collin Fultz
03-02-2003, 08:50
cyberblue goes by not only the overall skill of the driver but by the person's involvement with the team. the person that has the best reaction time and drives an RC car the fastest could also be the member that is only at one or two build times a week. if your team has a captain or lead strategist or something like that i would recommend having that person drive. it's best if your person understands exactly what the strategy is for the game. also the ability to think on one's feet is a big thing. it's been discussed that autonomous mode will be a large influence on strategies. you don't want somebody up there with no creativity.
I understand that you don't have a robot and all, but here is how I, personally, would decide upon a driver/operator. Team RAGE does not choose drivers the same way I would, but I think my way would work better :o .
First, I would test for common sense: Does the driver learn from specific mistakes made while practicing? Or does s/he keep repeating the same mistake? This sounds trivial to some, but look at it this way. If the driver doesn't learn from his/her mistake now, then when in a match and s/he tries something that doesn't work, s/he will either keep trying the failed move or sit there not knowing what to do. I do understand that it is a responsibility of the coach to tell the driver what to do, but I say that this weight should be placed on the driver, allowing the coach to worry about other things.
Next, I would test for quick reflexes: Does the driver respond quickly to changes during a match? Does the driver respond with the proper solution in the wake of changes that can adversely affect his/her alliance's chance of winning a match? Are the responses executed in such a way that the robots on the driver's alliance are placed in as little danger as possible? Yea-- its important.
Next, I would test for the ability to follow instructions: Does the driver follow the instructions given by the coach? Is the driver able to, if not able to follow the exact directions given by a coach, reach an acceptable compromise? Somewhat important.
Finally, I would test for the ability to give instructions: Can the driver effectively communicate to his/her partner what s/he is trying to do? By that I mean, are step-by-step instructions given, or does the driver just put across the general idea behind his actions. The latter is the preferred method, in my opinion. Very important.
Skill does factor in, but if the driver is good at all of the above, then refined skill skill can come later with alot of practice. I think the same thing of knowing the rules.
Oh, one other thing: Be certain that your two drivers work well together. If they don't have "chemistry," then despite their skill, coordinating movements to make them fluid will be very difficult.
sanddrag
03-02-2003, 11:35
I look very closely at how their fingers interact with the joysticks. Some people wrap their hands all the way around them like it's a fighter pilot game and this does not offer smooth precise control of a robot.
skrussel
03-02-2003, 14:08
It's not so much about the joysticks....it's about how the 2 communicate and react/respond to each other too. They need to not let their egos get in the way, and they need to listen to each other. No blaming when things go wrong. Calm. Grace under pressure.
You can always practice and get better at controlling the robot, even in a short time, but WHO YOU ARE right now and how you act under stress, and how you work together is already a factor.
Ryan Dognaux
03-02-2003, 16:19
This isn't necessarily how my team does it, this is just a personal view.
I believe there should be a 'try-out' kinda deal where the people who have the best ability to drive the robot should do it. I might sound kinda biased since I do animation and basically work on the robot zero of the time, but still that doesn't make a person a bad driver. The ones w/ the best skills should be the ones driving, but also the people have to have a good knowledge of the game and be able to see everything that's going on on the playing field. Oh yeah, hand-eye coordination is a biggie.
Ashley Weed
03-02-2003, 16:43
Common sense.... reaction time.... following directions... and knowleledge are big, however, I believe the 'getting-along' aspect is the biggest of any when choosing a team.
A try-out is an excellent idea..... I went through a try-out prior to becoming a driver. How would you do it without a previous robot? Maybe a team nearby would be willing to allow you to borrow one of their past robots for a day to test skills..... I know that we would be willing to help a team nearby us.
The drivers must know the game in full detail... be able to give you an accurate score in a reasonable time... and know all of the rules of the field. The driver must also be responsible for their robot, and be completely knoweledgeable of their machine.
The individual must be dedicated. The drivers are basically responsible for the outcome of a match. As a driver, they should have the knoweledge of all possible apponents and allies. They should have an excellent reaction time for working with and against teams.
Be sure that your drivers can work together. Without a well-functioning driver team, your coach will not be able to work well with them. On my team, the driver-team actually chooses their coach, so they should be able to work together. The human player should also be viewed as to how the person would work with the rest of the floor team.
A happy drive team produces a successful FIRST team.
Redhead Jokes
03-02-2003, 17:10
Originally posted by weedie
Maybe a team nearby would be willing to allow you to borrow one of their past robots for a day to test skills..... I know that we would be willing to help a team nearby us.
Our full practice field and 2001 robot are available to So Cal teams.
Duke 13370
03-02-2003, 17:45
On our team, the smart ones are the ones that don't want to drive.;) (It's just to crazy this year)
Well not all the smart ones. I still want to drive and at present I am the only one who wants to that has tried.
sanddrag
03-02-2003, 20:40
Certain parts of our robot will be very difficult to control to say it without giving a way much. To operate there are probably two qualified people and to drive probably three qualified people. We try to be as fair as posible but we broke the thing in driver tryouts last year on ship day. Try to find a driver challenge that will promote skillful pecise driving rather than quick, aggressive driving.
Kit Gerhart
03-02-2003, 22:31
I was heavily involved in the driver testing for most of my years with TechnoKats and we did several things, among them:
1) Have the candidates drive the robot for time around a course of cones. If you have a fairly fast robot, or one with gear change which is fast in high gear, this seems to be a valuable test.
2) Have the prospective drivers do things that you would do in real matches, again for time and precision. In 2001, we tested the drivers' ability to get the two goals and balance on the ramp. In '98, we tested both driver and operator for ability to do their respective jobs as would be done in matches. That year, I drove while testing operators, and Jeff Burch operated while testing drivers. I am very convinced that we ended up with the best driver and operator that year.
3) Give written tests on the rules of the game. This can be very important.
4) While testing drivers at you home base, encourage heckling and noise making by spectators to the testing. It is noisy, and the pressure is high during matches, so it makes sense to have distractions while testing (IMHO)
5) You always have to watch for the little things when evaluating drivers. A stop watch will tell you a lot, but if you have been around it, you can detect real skill when you see it, and sometimes the stop watch doesn't tell the whole story.
The use of R/C cars has been mentioned in several posts to this thread, and it should be valuable for learning to stay oriented when going in various directions and coming toward you. The steering wheel/finger throttle of an R/C car is certainly different from the way most of our robots are driven, but for learning orientation, driving the cars should be of benefit for teams which don't yet have a robot to drive.
All of what I have said is some of my opinion on driver and operator selection if you goal is to have the best drive team for winning matches. There are certainly other philosophies, including letting students drive who have "earned" the position, and there is merit to that. That can be a "tie breaker" with the TK team if there is no obvious "best" driver candidate.
While there are several students on every team who would like to be driver, operator, and human player, not everyone can have these positions and one of the most important jobs of all is to do the selection fairly so you avoid peoples' feeling being hurt.
Originally posted by weedie
Common sense.... reaction time.... following directions... and knowleledge are big
Yeah...so...uhh...how'd you get to be driver? :P *runs away quickly* Who fell asleep at the controls? Wha? You did? :D
For this year, unless you have a huge playbook, strategy is going to be a lot more important than actual driving skill. Someone who knows the game backwards and forwards with only mediocre driving skill is going to be a lot better choice than someone who can drive superbly. In the 1-2 seconds it takes to communicate info from coach to driver, a lot can happen. The semi-instantaneous travel of instruction overcompensates for the slight lag in reflexes, etc.
Kit Gerhart
04-02-2003, 07:42
Something I didn't mention in my earlier post is that, at TechnoKats, we'd narrow down our list of potential drivers and operators to two or three students per position before our first regional, and then switch people around in the qualifying matches at the regional. The actual competition is the best place to determine who is the best driver, and is by far the best practice your team will get.
The last few years, we had generally determined who our "first string" driver, operator, and human player would be by the end of the qualifying rounds of the first of our two regionals and made few, if any changes after that time.
Ashley Weed
04-02-2003, 16:36
Originally posted by evulish
Yeah...so...uhh...how'd you get to be driver? :P *runs away quickly* Who fell asleep at the controls? Wha? You did? :D
haha..... leave me alone..... I think that is a job well done.... 80 competitive matches and only one mistake???? anyone wanna challenge that???:p
The way i view drivers for the robot are like ummm... astronauts
the control center is the one that tells you the mission objective and advice on how to approach it. (This would be the coach and the human player (who is your second coach)) But ultimatly the astronauts are in controll of the space vessel.
Yes your drivers need to have the knowledge of the game they need to know the robot in and out. It is very important for them to be able to orient themselves in 3D space.
how ever there are other qualities such as being able to listen to others, being nice to others (driver coach team members).
anyways too much to say too little time
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