A Change in this year's Spirit of FIRST?

[Patrick Wang]

I have grown up through High School in the FIRST program, and I have seen dramatic changes in its spirit and the feel of the competition since I was a freshmen.

In my 4th year in FIRST, I have noticed something different in the spirit of the newer teams, many of them seem not to see the true intent of FIRST.

I think this largely the result of the shortened kickoff, while Dean and Woodie made their speeches concerning FIRST yet again this year, it has changed greatly from those hour lectures of yesteryear.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed not having to sit through a 3 hour kickoff, but the only reason I could really make out Gracious Professionalism was because I have heard Dean and Woodie's speech in the past years.

It seems to me that the burden of bringing newer teams, (and even some members of older teams) to see the values of Gracious Professionalism, (namely in the threads discussing robots) lies more firmly with the veteran teams sharing their views of gracious professionalism.

Has anybody else noticed this shift in the nature of the people posting on the chiefdelphi boards (certainly not the whole FIRST community)? And can you see that perhaps the reduced emphasis this year on the true point of the competition may have resulted in such behavior?

[Dave_222]

yes i agree and like you eluded too the job will lie in the example of vet teams to relay the purpose of first. I personally am not looking at this as a bad thing I am willing to accept the challenge as part of Dean's "homework"

[Jeff_Rice]

I think I know what you mean...

People trying to subvert the rules and such, all those discussions about using disable to control the robot during autonomous, or getting in those our robot is better than yours arguments.

It seems to me that g. p. is the same thing as common decency. You help other people, play by the rules, and compete in a sportsmanlike manner.

[rees2001]

Patrick,
I agree,
Boastful, overconfident, arrogant, RUDE, disrespectful. These are the terms that come to mind when I read through some of these posts. I can’t remember when Dean said, “build a Battle-Bot & talk smack,” but he must have because that is what I seem to be reading.
Most people feel good about what they have done. That is the foundation of FIRST. I have no problem with people thinking or knowing their robot is better than somebody else’s. You are supposed to. Please just try to imagine your grandmother reading what you have to say. As my grandmother used to tell me, “if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all.”
Please try & use constructive critisizim when looking at somebody else’s design.
As far as I can remember in my 4 years, nobody has gone undefeated in every match. Even last years National Finals went to 3 matches.

[soezgg]

Boastful, overconfident, arrogant, RUDE, disrespectful.

I agree and I even take part of it.

Its called COMPETITION. Think about it.


stuff like that can still take a great part in gracious professionalism.

realize also, this is ON THE INTERENT. people can be more rude here than in real life because they dont directly affect them.

i can be a real ? online, because i dont have to look you in the face.

in real life however, im usually quite nicer.

but...anyway.

[Stephen Kowski]

I presonally haven't seen this great change in philosophy of veteran or rookie teams. 2001 people couldn't wait to tell you how fast they could balance two goals, but in reality some of it was true, but most was fiction. This is just one example I can think off of the top of my head.

Mainly I believe it is a lot of misinterpretation and mind games to try and get you hyped about a person's robot. The way I see it no one really knows anything yet unless they have been to a scrimmage, and even then nothing is set in stone. So are people talking "smack"? yes. Has anything ever really come of it in any year? not really.

[Wayne C.]

there has always been a lot of braggadocio surrounding the competitions. That's the result of lots of hard work and pride in accomplishment. As long as it is not degrading the efforts of others it is just talk.

The change I see is the move away from the competitions being a fun social event. No more giveaways, music, friday party- sounds like the fun is drained somehow. What will the losing teams get out of this year's events? At least if you lost in the past you still had fun with the friends you made on the way. I wonder what the 75% of the teams not winning will remember from this year's events? I hope it is positive.

I know our guys will have a good time. Hope you all do too.

WC


:cool:

[miketwalker]

I personally have noticed that lots of people seem to be focusing on the "We're gonna beat you" aspect this year through posts and such. I mean, yes it is a competition... but I'm not there to win. If we win, that's great, but if not.... I learn from other teams for next year and in turn still win. I mean you go to a competition, and as a rookie I met TONS of people who I'll see again this year. The competition teaches you, and if you lose, you just simply cheer for the teams that one and say good job. Last year at nationals, we were in 42nd place in our division and we knew we were outta it, but we didnt complain or anything, we just shouted as loud as we could "WHO DAT BBAT?" I just think too many people are worried about dominating others and saying they're "better" which isn't what this is all about at all. I'm there to learn, have fun, and see the various ways everyone went. Then to cheer on EVERYONE. If a team breaks down, you go over to their pits and help them, not laugh and say "we rule". That's my 2 cents.

[f22flyboy]

Well I'm prepared to be the scape-goat (or flame-goat) for Battlebots, so here's my opinion.

From what I've heard, although BB is a competition, there is a lot of "gracious professionalism" that goes on behind the scenes, and even in front of the cameras. It is a competition and the object is to win, but you don't win any more by obliterating your opponents bot after it has been disabled. Also, rumor has it that the same level of assistance, part sharing, etc. is found in the BB pits as the FIRST pits.

My definition of gracious professionalism is knocking someone down during a match, but being the first to help them up once the match is over.

[miketwalker]

Originally posted by f22flyboy
My definition of gracious professionalism is knocking someone down during a match, but being the first to help them up once the match is over.

Well said.

[Ken Leung]

This thread reminds me time this summer when I was completely silent and didn’t make any post on the CD forum, and a post I did about it. It’s buried in the forum some where, and it was so nicely called a “novel” by JosephM :P.

Anyway, here is some part of it:

I used to read threads, and usually ended up shaking my head from time to time thinking, “Why are people doing this?” At the end, after months of frustration and disappointment, I took the easy way out and ignored most parts.

But then I start thinking, how can I believe in the benefit of the forum when I don’t even go in there anymore? How can I recommend them to fellow FIRST participants when I don’t even want anything to do with those places anymore? As a mentor in FIRST, am I really doing others any good by introducing them into such a hostile environment where they only learn to talk the same way with the same attitude?


I remember the good old times when I was eager to go into the forum and see people talking about interesting issues. I was too afraid to post replies, and was silently reading posts after posts learning whatever I can to prepare myself to enter one of the most exciting places in FIRST community, arming myself with basic knowledge of just about everything, and making sure I sort out my own line of thinking/feeling before I form my voice. And it was a wonderful experience. I ended up posting 2nd most at the 2001 season, and made lots and lots of friends here and there online or at competition. I heard many similar comments from lots of those friends. And I thank all the other posters on the forum for showing me how wonderful the CD forum is.

But now… somehow, all of those seems to have faded away. Well, I guess I can’t say all, but definitely a lot of them.

I start thinking about the role I want to take in FIRST and in other places, and I remember how much fun it was to inspire people, and teach them new things. It was truly exciting when I show the students the competition, the robots, the forum and chatroom, and maybe other neat stuff in FIRST. I really believe education and inspiration is the path of life I want to take.

Believe it or not, when we register for this forum, and posted the first word in one of the forums, we took on a little of the responsibility of showing others what’s the right thing to say. Lots and lots of viewers who come in here to read the forum look up to us for good ideas and data, because when we started showing our voices in the FIRST community in the forum/chatroom, we became sort of a role model, for newer members to come in and see, what’s the proper way to have intellectual discussions about something we are really excited about. The newer members look at what’s posted/said in the forum/chatroom to see how people are supposed to expression opinions and communicate. In a way, we are all teachers from the beginning we stop being a reader and start being a poster.


So start posting and show a good example to others ;-). We have a job to do, if we want something to happen the way we want it to. I always though, “if you want something bad enough, you can work hard to make it happen.” Talk to people, have interesting discussions, show your voice in the good ways you are supposed to. Make an example, and start influencing and inspiring others. There are lots of teams out there waiting to benefit from the CD forum just the way we benefit when we started.

It is an important task we are taking on right now, whether you realize it or not. The subtle ways in which we express ourselves form a voice in the FIRST community that others look up to and learn from.

Its going to take a while… But, I really do hope we can restore this forum and the chat room to what they are supposed to be… Places for intelligent discussions about this competition, really good ways to meet others with similar passion, and a fun learning experience where we can learn, share, and inspire ourselves and others.

And that continue to be my wishes…

Please note that, it is not up to yourself and yourself only to make things better. After all, the forum and chat room are formed by many people when they wanted to share their experience with others. Not anyone of us can be expected to change the way everybody acts… But get this: if EVERYONE of us want it enough, it will happen.

[Amanda Morrison]

I agree fully.

Something has gone awry this year in FIRST. I think more teams are concerned with winning and their robot that they don't even stop to think about the kids on their team, or the learning experiences of others. While ChiefDelphi Forums have an incredible amount of information to pass along to teams, they have somehow been infused with comments that should never be said under the influence of the spirit of gracious professionalism (no fault of their own).

What went wrong? How can we stop this?

[Koko Ed]

The thing I find so ironic is everyone talks about how things have changed in FIRST and ever since I have been on these boards I always see poster listing in their sigs how their team did in what regional, what their seeding was, and how many awards they got.
So what is so different this year?

[DanL]

Yeah, about a year ago (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4040&highlight=first+too+big+gracious), I posted something kinda like this (although in a completely unrelated thread).

Summarized, although not sounding as elitist (which I didn't mean):


FIRST wants what may be a contradictory set of goals: expand to every high school in the US, and still keep its unique flavor (epitomized by "gracious professionalism").
If you expand to every high school in the nation, you're going to bring in the bad as well as some good. The mere existence of this thread proves that despite Dean's and Woody's best efforts, this is unfortunately the case.
If you don't bring in new people, you become a exclusive society of elitists (think popular snobbish-society or ivy-leage-school stereotypes).


So, the question is this:
how do you strike a balance?


I think the problem is the veterans are looking for FIRST to be a utopia, while the word 'Utopia' literally means 'nowhere.'

[Ken Leung]

Originally posted by amandabean
What went wrong? How can we stop this?

The best way isn't to say "no please don't do this anymore", but to set an example of what's right.

There are plenty of us making posts that say "this is what Gracious professionalism is all about", and "you shouldn't critize others needlessly" (Andy Baker write the best of them, in my opinion), but those post themselves doesn't teach others what's appropiate.

Some where along the line, we got tired of posting like the way we used to, and all the new members doesn't have anything to look up to. At the same time, a lot of old members either quit FIRST, or stop visiting the forum like they used to, which amplified the problem even more.

Anyway, done with analyzing the reason. Onward to the problem solving part.

As I said, the best way is still to set a good example of good posts. Whatever we say will teach the new members what's good and what isn't. Once they see a lot of good posts with interesting discussions challenging people to think and learn from each other, they will get addicted and will never turn away.


Replying to soezgg:

It is too bad that you cannot see beyond the COMPETITION part of FIRST, and understand some of the truely amazing thing that's going on. Over here at Bay Area in California, we have an organization where the teams come together as a group, and figure out what we can do to help each other out, and make the experience much more worth while.

All the WRRF teams got so much more out of it because they see pass the COMPETITION part you so dearly hold onto, and share and learn from each other. We hold workshops for all the teams about fundraising, drive train and motors, robot designs, team building, rookie advice, and we put together post season competitions. Can you say you've done similar things?

Also, I disagree that because this is the internet, you can disregard other's feelings and say whatever you feel like. This forum happens to be one of the most valuable part of FIRST, and if you don't feel like respecting that, then please post your comments else where.

[Jeff_Rice]

I must agree with Ken L.

Though many variations of this statement have been said, I will say it anyway.

FIRST teaches us about life, and how to better it for ourselves and others.

Why does NASA donate so much to FIRST teams? Because in bettering the lives of the participants, many of the participants will eventually better the world.

FIRST is much more than a competition. It is a program to make ourselves better, and in the process, make the world a better place.

[MBurr-Mecum]

In defense of soezgg, there is a similar thread to this in robot showcase in which similar views were expressed and then recanted. This overwhelming reaction to negative posts has sent a clear message on what will and will not be accepted in the FIRST community, and I congratulate you all.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Originally posted by Ken L
I remember the good old times when I was eager to go into the forum and see people talking about interesting issues. I was too afraid to post replies, and was silently reading posts after posts learning whatever I can to prepare myself to enter one of the most exciting places in FIRST community, arming myself with basic knowledge of just about everything, and making sure I sort out my own line of thinking/feeling before I form my voice....
I start thinking about the role I want to take in FIRST and in other places, and I remember how much fun it was to inspire people, and teach them new things...
Believe it or not, when we register for this forum, ...we took on a little of the responsibility of showing others what’s the right thing to say. Lots and lots of viewers who come in here to read the forum look up to us for good ideas and data, because when we started showing our voices in the FIRST community in the forum/chatroom, we became sort of a role model, for newer members to come in and see, what’s the proper way to have intellectual discussions about something we are really excited about. The newer members look at what’s posted/said in the forum/chatroom to see how people are supposed to expression opinions and communicate. In a way, we are all teachers from the beginning we stop being a reader and start being a poster.

So start posting and show a good example to others ;-)...Make an example, and start influencing and inspiring others. There are lots of teams out there waiting to benefit from the CD forum just the way we benefit when we started.

Nicely said, Ken.
I don't believe there has been that much of a change in spirit, it is pretty much this way every year. New members (not necessarily rookie teams) are overloaded with this new concept of gracious professionalism. They hear about it on this forum and others and certainly from the FIRST docs and staff, but can anyone really know this concept from just reading about it? It doesn't hit home until it is experienced. Those who know what I am talking about have seen it firsthand. That time when you explained your robot design or strategy to a competing team member who didn't expect it. That incredulous, almost double take look, when you explained that you are required to give them that info. That look that said "what planet are you from?" until they realized you were serious. I see it at every event I attend, and not from students but adults as well.
Keep up the good work, it is making a difference out there.

[Redhead Jokes]

Originally posted by Ken L
Believe it or not, when we register for this forum, and posted the first word in one of the forums, we took on a little of the responsibility of showing others what’s the right thing to say. Lots and lots of viewers who come in here to read the forum look up to us for good ideas and data, because when we started showing our voices in the FIRST community in the forum/chatroom, we became sort of a role model, for newer members to come in and see, what’s the proper way to have intellectual discussions about something we are really excited about. The newer members look at what’s posted/said in the forum/chatroom to see how people are supposed to expression opinions and communicate. In a way, we are all teachers from the beginning we stop being a reader and start being a poster.

It is an important task we are taking on right now, whether you realize it or not. The subtle ways in which we express ourselves form a voice in the FIRST community that others look up to and learn from.


To me FIRST is a microcosm of real life. There are difficult people everywhere. Each person learns about Gracious Professionalism or not at their own pace. I certainly learned from others' examples in my life outside of FIRST, and now inside of FIRST. Life can swing back and forth, and so can the Gracious Professionalism displayed on the forums. I am in control of myself. I can practice Gracious Professionalism myself, no matter what others around me do or say.

My daughter, captain of our team, keeps remarking that our team hasn't had ANY fights this year. A HUGE improvement over last year. The improvements were a process, not an arrival at a sudden destination of Gracious Professionalism. We can continue that process on these forums, even thru the appearance of backward steps.

I in particular have experienced this year the FIRST camaraderie and Gracious Professionalism I'd heard about from teams other than our own. I'm experiencing a better experience in FIRST than our family experienced last year. *shrug* I'm not experiencing the negativity that others are experiencing and expressing on this thread. I'm very grateful for the difference FIRST makes in our family's life.

[Redhead Jokes]

Originally posted by SuperDanman

FIRST wants what may be a contradictory set of goals: expand to every high school in the US, and still keep its unique flavor (epitomized by "gracious professionalism").
If you expand to every high school in the nation, you're going to bring in the bad as well as some good. The mere existence of this thread proves that despite Dean's and Woody's best efforts, this is unfortunately the case.
If you don't bring in new people, you become a exclusive society of elitists (think popular snobbish-society or ivy-leage-school stereotypes).


So, the question is this:
how do you strike a balance?


I think trying to strike a balance is trying to reach utopia.
I don't think Dean and Woody wants to "keep out the bad". They want to spread the experience - including the experience of learning about Gracious Professionalism.

[Redhead Jokes]

Originally posted by amandabean
While ChiefDelphi Forums have an incredible amount of information to pass along to teams, they have somehow been infused with comments that should never be said under the influence of the spirit of gracious professionalism (no fault of their own).

What went wrong? How can we stop this?

I've experienced that kind of thing outside of FIRST, and those experiences helped me learn how to stand up for myself, sometimes how to stand up for others, when to let go and not do something, when to speak up, how to speak up for myself with more graciousness...FIRST is an arena to learn about Gracious Professionalism and how to apply Gracious Professionalism in all of life.

[Todd Derbyshire]

I think ever since you have to qualify to go to Nats that's when alot of teams developed this new form of gracious professionalism. "Yah we will be there to pick you up...after the match." Dean wanted F.I.R.S.T. to become a sport a consequence is that you have this attitude coming in. Personally I don't mind it as much because through my experiences in sports its how I play. So FIRST to me is like a sport be kind and polite off the field and leave everything on the field. Many times however, the kind and polite part isn't followed through. It happens I'm victim of it myself. Its just human nature for it to happen. When you work on something for six weeks its hard to accept defeat and you look for excuses. You lash out on people on forums it happens: I can go on I'm a psychology major lol;). To conclude I think the new form of gracious professionalism is fine and its healthy for the competition.

[f22flyboy]

Originally posted by Ken L
This thread reminds me time this summer when I was completely silent and didn’t make any post on the CD forum, and a post I did about it. It’s buried in the forum some where, and it was so nicely called a “novel” by JosephM :P.

Anyway, here is some part of it:

I used to read threads, and usually ended up shaking my head from time to time thinking, “Why are people doing this?” At the end, after months of frustration and disappointment, I took the easy way out and ignored most parts.

But then I start thinking, how can I believe in the benefit of the forum when I don’t even go in there anymore? How can I recommend them to fellow FIRST participants when I don’t even want anything to do with those places anymore? As a mentor in FIRST, am I really doing others any good by introducing them into such a hostile environment where they only learn to talk the same way with the same attitude?


I remember the good old times when I was eager to go into the forum and see people talking about interesting issues. I was too afraid to post replies, and was silently reading posts after posts learning whatever I can to prepare myself to enter one of the most exciting places in FIRST community, arming myself with basic knowledge of just about everything, and making sure I sort out my own line of thinking/feeling before I form my voice. And it was a wonderful experience. I ended up posting 2nd most at the 2001 season, and made lots and lots of friends here and there online or at competition. I heard many similar comments from lots of those friends. And I thank all the other posters on the forum for showing me how wonderful the CD forum is.

But now… somehow, all of those seems to have faded away. Well, I guess I can’t say all, but definitely a lot of them.

I start thinking about the role I want to take in FIRST and in other places, and I remember how much fun it was to inspire people, and teach them new things. It was truly exciting when I show the students the competition, the robots, the forum and chatroom, and maybe other neat stuff in FIRST. I really believe education and inspiration is the path of life I want to take.

Believe it or not, when we register for this forum, and posted the first word in one of the forums, we took on a little of the responsibility of showing others what’s the right thing to say. Lots and lots of viewers who come in here to read the forum look up to us for good ideas and data, because when we started showing our voices in the FIRST community in the forum/chatroom, we became sort of a role model, for newer members to come in and see, what’s the proper way to have intellectual discussions about something we are really excited about. The newer members look at what’s posted/said in the forum/chatroom to see how people are supposed to expression opinions and communicate. In a way, we are all teachers from the beginning we stop being a reader and start being a poster.


So start posting and show a good example to others ;-). We have a job to do, if we want something to happen the way we want it to. I always though, “if you want something bad enough, you can work hard to make it happen.” Talk to people, have interesting discussions, show your voice in the good ways you are supposed to. Make an example, and start influencing and inspiring others. There are lots of teams out there waiting to benefit from the CD forum just the way we benefit when we started.

It is an important task we are taking on right now, whether you realize it or not. The subtle ways in which we express ourselves form a voice in the FIRST community that others look up to and learn from.

Its going to take a while… But, I really do hope we can restore this forum and the chat room to what they are supposed to be… Places for intelligent discussions about this competition, really good ways to meet others with similar passion, and a fun learning experience where we can learn, share, and inspire ourselves and others.

And that continue to be my wishes…

Please note that, it is not up to yourself and yourself only to make things better. After all, the forum and chat room are formed by many people when they wanted to share their experience with others. Not anyone of us can be expected to change the way everybody acts… But get this: if EVERYONE of us want it enough, it will happen.


brevity is the key to effective communication

j/k :p

[Elgin Clock]

This question is for all of you who have seen a change in the spirit of FIRST.

Do you think this started because of the qualifying rule that was imposed last year or do you feel it is just something that comes with the passage of time and the fact that FIRST is growing at an enormous rate??
I have to admit that when I joined 3 years ago it was nice to know that even though a team lost at an event and had extremely bad luck that they got to go to the big event anyways, but with the inception of the qualifying rule.. well let's just say that changed a little.
One of the things that I liked about FIRST was the fact that even though you did really bad at a regional, you could still make it to the nationals where the slate was cleared.
It made the event unique, I don't think there are much events do that in the world, sporting or otherwise.

I realize that the qualification rule is a financial and space saving necessity but do you think it took a little away from FIRST??? Just a thought.

As for gracious professionalism, I do think that it is lost a little on newbies (and others sometimes) but that's what our job as experienced FIRSTers is, to try and pass down this important value.

[Andy Grady]

Hi All,

I have been on these boards since their inception way back in the rookie years of team number 47. In my time i have seen 9 games come and go. I have seen FIRST grow from a competition involving one regional tornement, and one national tornement, to the massive operation you see today. I have seen the game get tougher, more complicated, and more interesting every year. I have also seen what many others have seen in the fact that the ideals of people in FIRST are changing. We live in a competitive world. FIRST is changing to adjust to the world in order to promote science and technology by making the games more TV friendly as well as more exciting. Back in the early years, the ideas were small, the community was non-exsistant. Over the years, because of forums like this one which we express and share our ideas, FIRST has evolved from the simple engineering competition that it was, to encompass not only a competition aspect, but also a personal aspect. I have made dozens of friends through FIRST as well as many others. FIRST is growing, the students, engineers, and community members are growing. Its all about growth...its all about change. The idea of gracious professionalism has never changed, though the use of the idea has become blurred from time to time. FIRST can only preach gracious professionalism so much, the rest of it becomes the responsibility of those who have been around long enough to set the example. As FIRST changes, as it has changed over the years, as it will continue to change, it is up to us to continue to promote gracious professionalism. When we speak on these boards, and when we are at competition we must remember what Woodie says..."act as if our grandmother was watching us." For FIRST to grow, and gracious professionalism to be upheld, we can't rely on FIRST to change the way they approach things to promote it, we must promote it ourselves.

Remember this when you are at the competitions, or speaking on this board...it'll make life much more fun for everyone involved...and it will make life easier on the good people at FIRST who are struggling enough to bring us a fun exciting game, and promote science and technology.

Good Luck to Everyone
Andy Grady

[Patrick Wang]

I thank everyone for posting their opinions regarding this message.

Perhaps it is in fact the high volume of new teams that seem to make the board all the more "busy" and consequently more people need to hear the message of gracious professionalism.

I'll bet that this conversation will recur year to year, as the message must be communicated in one way or another.

Thanks all, It' good to hear that the spirit is still alive and well, now we just need to make sure that we are persistent enough to make every new generation understand this message.

[Scooter]

I would have to agree with some of the comments here.

I think that the gp is infectious. If we can all think back to our freshman year, I bet many of us were more into the competition portion of it. If you were to come back in a year and talk to some of these people, I bet you would see an apparent shift toward gp. The intent of the program is to instill these values, and that is what is being done. I think that once a person has gone to a competition and seen that if you need a new motor or solenoid, that another team will give you one, this will change them. That is where the infection starts. Come back in 2 years, and they might be complaining of a lack of gp in new rookie teams. I guess what I am trying to say is that it just takes time, and if we give it time, we will see results.

OK, I am tired and it is late...Time for me to go to bed.

Bill B.

[Jason Haaga]

I would have to say many of you should take note of what Todd said earlier in this thread. It is healthy for the competition. FIRST has many facets, none of which should be discounted. The spirit of community and learning you all speak of is not mutually exclusive with competition. You'll find despite the competitive nature and trash talk that there isn't a single team out there who isn't willing to help another in a pinch. Many of us have scrambled to help get opponents ready for the next match without even the slightest second thought. Hell, we even get along with 121 when one of us needs help or we're assigned together. The fact that we've traded less than kind words makes little difference to either side; any negativity gets stowed in two seconds flat. That's what many of you fail to realize: competition strengthens the spirit of FIRST by testing gracious professionalism, by making us go against each other one round and then work together 20 minutes later. It teaches us how to compete with people we may not get along with and against those that we do. I'm not defending half the posts that have been made, but I do feel, however, the competitive aspect of FIRST has been getting a nice thrashing it definately doesn't deserve lately. FIRST is a competition; play to win when appropriate but never forget what you already won in those first six weeks.

[EvilInside]

Well, I feel I have to add my two cents. I, though a veteran of FIRST and team leader, have a major focus on winning. I have a major focus on the competition, because that is where everyone who worked so hard on their robot gets to see the culmination(sp?) of their efforts. I worry about the awards, because there are a few people I've talked to that wouldn't be nice to other teams, wouldn't be helpful to other teams, if they didn't get an award out of it. Now, even though I focus on my "beloved" competition, that doesn't mean that I don't understand the spirit of FIRST. Quite on the contrary. If any of the rookie teams wanted a little help, a little advice, I would be more than happy to help. I'm not going to pretend to be this good and perfect person, and pretend that I "look past the competition" because I don't. I have a competitive attitude towards life in general, and the competition is where I feel most at home at. Now, don't get me wrong, if asked I would probably spend more time helping out in other teams pits than my own, but that is because the more competitive other teams are the more fun the competition is, and if I can help out someone else, if I can make a small difference in improving the attitude of someone else, I feel better too. Now, we all have championed FIRST in many different ways and places, but how many of us believe it? I do, to a degree, but lately when I talk to a reporter for the local newspaper, my championing of FIRST sounds pretty canned. Because it really is. FIRST is great the way it is, we don't NEED to talk about how great it is. Talking does nothing except maybe help out your concience a bit. Saying FIRST is great doesn't mean it is, just like sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken. FIRST is great whether or not people say out loud it is, because just being a part of it is tribute enough.

[adunakin]

Yes FIRST is a great experience, but I believe we DO need to talk about it and tell everyone we know how great it is. It's like a camp I went to as a kid. Everyone was always saying it was the best camp in the country so everyone believed it!

I guess the overall philosophy of our team is the same as we say in our fundraising letter, "The object of the team is not to design, build and compete a robot, it is to design, build and compete students." If after four years we have opened a student's eyes to the infinite possibilities they have in their life, it is worth all the effort. GP is a means to the end.

[Redhead Jokes]

Originally posted by adunakin
"The object of the team is not to design, build and compete a robot, it is to design, build and compete students." If after four years we have opened a student's eyes to the infinite possibilities they have in their life, it is worth all the effort.


Ooo, I like that. Mind if I use it?

[Rich Wong]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ken L
[B]The best way isn't to say "no please don't do this anymore", but to set an example of what's right.

There are plenty of us making posts that say "this is what Gracious professionalism is all about", and "you shouldn't critize others needlessly"
=======================

WELL SAID AND I AGREED.

[Eric Reed]

I've been involved in a lot of different orgnizations. Some I've joined at the beginning, others I've joined after they've already got off the ground. I've noticed that it doesn't matter at what point I join, after a couple of years I inevitably get the feeling that things aren't quite as good as they were when I started.

I have a feeling that this is not really based in reality. I think, as many have said, that it is just that new people continue to come on board. They have the same sophomoric attitude that I had, and make the same mistakes I did, but somehow I forgot about them.

So now I think I have a handle on where this feeling comes from. I take it as just a reminder that we have to be a little tolerant of newcomers, and that we have to lead them to the ideals of the group...nobody comes on board knowing what this is all about.

MY 2c

Eric.

[EvilInside]

Originally posted by Eric Reed

I have a feeling that this is not really based in reality. I think, as many have said, that it is just that new people continue to come on board. They have the same sophomoric attitude that I had, and make the same mistakes I did, but somehow I forgot about them.


Eric.

You know what? You are exactly right. When a person first joins this organization, they have that sophomoric attidtude. They don't worry about ship dates and money and competition, they just really don't care all that much. They sit around, enjoying time with their friends, and love FIRST. It is addictive. Then, as they grow older, get some experience, they start to feel the pressure of it all. Some, like myself, get thrown into team leadership and have to worry about these things, and it becomes a job. I'm not complaining, these are my moments, I love the stress and the strain of it all. I revel in it. But, to some, they just don't want to be in it anymore, because in growing "mature" they also grow more stressed and question their involvment. Now, to all of you who look down upon the immature people on your team: If these immature newbies to FIRST do even a little work each day, they are the true embodiment(sp?) of FIRST. They, in being immature and having fun with their friends, are more a part of what FIRST is supposed to be in the spirit sense. So when you look down your noses at them, remember the time when you were just like them, and you truly enjoyed the experience that your mentors, sponsors, and FIRST staff strive to give you each year.

[Joe Matt]

It's a competiton. We can brag and debate if we want. But when it gets down to the competition and Team X won't lend Team Y a tool because they are rivals, they had a fight on CD, etc, then the sprit of FIRST has changed and needs to be brought back.

[Sean_330]

I used to feel that there may very well have been a massive change in the attitude of FIRST in the past couple of years. However, I made several observations when contemplating this idea. In this thread and in general. most of what we are talking about here happens on CD. While CD is huge and has about 3,500 members, the FIRST community has more than 30,000. That means that about 10-11% of the people involved in FIRST are on CD. Of those, my guess is that only about 2% at the most are the ones causing a lot of the trouble. That means that maybe 70 people on a bad day are bashing and fighting with each other. My point is this: while the attitude on CD may have seemed to change, we should not get discouraged about FIRST in general because the actions of a few who truly do not understand the meaning of gracious professionalism do NOT reflect the views of the vast majority of FIRSTers who embrace it wholeheartedly. If we base our observations of a large organization, such as FIRST, based on the actions of a few, we miss the bigger picture, that FIRST is helping thousands of people succeed.

Anyway, that’s just my opinion!

[camtunkpa]

I think I have to agree that things aren't very gracious anymore, the other day myself and another member from our team were browsing through the forums. We saw a discussion on a rookie robot. This team butsed their butts just as hard as any team out there, but the veteran teams instantly tore them apart. I mean it's the team's first year and they were obviously proud of their accomplishments, but there was not one good post about their machine. Everyone was commenting on how sloppy it was or whatever. I just think it was very rude! Things like that are what is going to kill FIRST! I hope alot of teams read this post and maybe think to themselves about the real meaning of FIRST! I have been involved for 7 years now and I would have never thought I'd be reading such nasty posts about a machine!

Cliff
Team #222

[gsensel]

Yes it is in the bitter end a competition, but it is about much more than winning. It is about learning science and technology, and developing a group in to a team that can work and have fun together. For one team to refuse to help another because they are "rivals" is wrong. (at least in the pits on the playing field it may be different) In 2001 when Beatty Hammond (team 71) beat us and went on to win, sure I was disappointed that my team couldn't have that glory again, but still I was happy for them that they found a way to play the game so elegantly. Also earlier in the year we were in the same hotel, and happened to have a joining room, my door was open until probably 2-3 in the morning talking to them and having a good time with other participants.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Originally posted by camtunkpa
I think I have to agree that things aren't very gracious anymore... We saw a discussion on a rookie robot... I hope alot of teams read this post and maybe think to themselves about the real meaning of FIRST! Cliff
Team #222
I think all members who read this forum need to keep in mind that the opinions of a few do not a trend make. Everyone of us in their rookie year, had a robot that is a far distant relative of what we have now. Therefore all rookie and struggling teams for that matter need our support. "Gracious Professionalism" in it's purest form means we are all on the same team. As such we are obligated to help when needed, offer help when the occasion arises, cheer for others, and compete to the best of our ability with all teams, rivals and friends alike. We have told teams that we have helped in the past "don't hold back if we come against you in the future." The one rule that showed that up that has changed is the ability to call time outs. When an opposition robot was broken, the competitors frequently tacked on their timeout to the broken teams timeout to have all help get that robot back into competition.

[Steve W]

This is my second year in FIRST. Last year I volunteered to help at the Canadian Regional. To help with our organizing a new regional I travelled down to Cleveland to observe my first event. I was hooked! Why? I was really amazed by the kids at the event. Here I was a 48 year old being approached and helped by everybody I met. I saw teams helping other teams and sharing ideas. At the Canadian Regional I took a week off work to help. The attitude from day one with setup was great. Everyone was willing to role up their sleeves and help. During competion one teams battery was dead in finals and the opposite alliance provided a charged battery so they could continue. Is GP dead? I don't think so. I was so moved last year that I joined a team this year as a rookie mentor and have learned a great deal. This year I will be announcing at 3 events and observing at 1 more. I believe that FIRST has a lot to give but a lot more to offer. As in life you get out of something what you put into it.

[Ben Mitchell]

So it isn't just me that noticed this.

Rookie teams/rookie people are bringing a computer game mentality to FIRST: the trash talking, the lack of grammar and punctiation: if anyone here has played computer games on the internet, you'll instantly see the comparisons I draw here.

It's up to veteran teams and mentors to help keep the original spirit of FIRST alive.

I will make my contribution: one post per day, at least, to spread the FIRST spirit.

I remember back in the days when I used to meet people here and talk to them on AIM. I'm going to start IMing people again.

I agree with Ken L. and the others about what has happened, and I don't think it is anything we can prevent...only correct with time and patience.

If these people don't fit in on these MB's, they will change thier attitudes, or quit. It's up to us to make these boards exemplify the FIRST principals in every post.

--Ben

[Adam Y.]

Rookie teams/rookie people are bringing a computer game mentality to FIRST: the trash talking, the lack of grammar and punctiation: if anyone here has played computer games on the internet, you'll instantly see the comparisons I draw here.
Yeah but you can chalk that up to the internet. People all over use elite slang, haxor, and short hand. People come here and they think things are the same here but they are not.

[Mark Hamilton]

This is also my fourth year, and I have to say I've seen a noticeable change, especially at nationals. FIRST has gotten so big I think a lot of teams are losing sight of the real goal. Add this in to the fact the pressure is on to qualify for nationals for roughly half the teams. The slow economy is also making life a lot more difficult for a lot of teams. I feel FIRST is going through some pretty strong growing pains right now. The way I see it is the exponential growth we've been seeing will have to slow down a lot eventually (only so much money and high schools to go around). Hopefully the veteran teams (although some of us veteran teams can be taught a lesson or two by the rookies) will be able to help the newer teams get it.

[Elgin Clock]

Originally posted by Mark Hamilton
[B]The way I see it is the exponential growth we've been seeing will have to slow down a lot eventually (only so much money and high schools to go around). [B]

Speaking of.. Something I've thought about every time Dean says "Bring more schools to FIRST".. In just the U.S., what would happen if every single high school in the country had a FIRST team??? It would be great exposure because the public just couldn't escape us and a lot of peopl would learn from a good set of expereinces, but on the other hand, would there be enough sponsors to fund us???
As a team with limited to no support from our school's administration financially or otherwise, would sponsors alone keep us or other teams like us afloat??? Or would we see more teams join FIRST for a year or two and then disappear from the robotics radar completely?

[David66]

Originally posted by soezgg
Boastful, overconfident, arrogant, RUDE, disrespectful.

realize also, this is ON THE INTERENT. people can be more rude here than in real life because they dont directly affect them.

i can be a real ? online, because i dont have to look you in the face.

in real life however, im usually quite nicer.

but...anyway.

well, there is a saying that goes "True character can only be seen when others can't see you at all" I dont mean this to be a personal attack, but many people seem to feel that they can act however they want, without any reprecussions. I personally wish everyone would relax a little and try to remember another term that woody and dean brought into being- "coopertition" this means that you do everything to help your opponents, while staying competitive yourself. It doesnt mean you should only be nice whenlooking someone in the eye, you should strive to be that all the time. being rude and disrespectful simply dont fit into FIRSt in any way.

[Koko Ed]

Any team that is rude and disrespectful will find out quickly that they will not do well if everyone is against them and I think they're attitude will change quickly.
I wouldn't worry about it really.

[Redhead Jokes]

Originally posted by David66
"True character can only be seen when others can't see you at all

I like that one. Here's another one

Adversity does not build character, it reveals it.

Disagreements, arguments, losing the game...

[miketwalker]

Originally posted by Koko Ed
Any team that is rude and disrespectful will find out quickly that they will not do well if everyone is against them and I think they're attitude will change quickly.
I wouldn't worry about it really.

Our team has been around for awhile, and I mean we're quite spirited. But, from what I noticed last year... for the most part the "rude and disrespectful" teams have been around for a long time and are all secretive with what they do with their robot and can sometimes be REALLY rude when all you're trying to do is say hi. I've noticed that in the threads too. Lots of the "Wow, check out our such and such, we're better" and that happens at competition alot. Personally, I really dislike teams that do that and I mean, sometimes yea they do great, but if they don't they get mad and say they deserved it and such. That's where I think it IS changing the spirit of FIRST. I'm sure many others have seen how some of the teams that have done well in previous years can get quite snobby and secretive though and when you're just trying to go over and meet some people they act as if you're an enemy, not as if you're someone trying to accomplish the same goal as them. FIRST is all about everyone striving for a similar goal and helping everyone else out.

[Amanda Morrison]

Whose robot is so much better than others that they must inform the FIRST community? Don't we all get the same kit of parts?

There will always be teams that aren't always leaning towards the 'polite' or 'friendly' end of the continuum, but that doesn't mean that your team has to be one of them. Just concentrate on those kids, and show them all FIRST has to offer. More than likely, they'll be willing to jump out and help other teams as soon as need be. If you teach a good lesson, you'll get good feedback.

[MagicMalice]

Also, I disagree that because this is the internet, you can disregard other's feelings and say whatever you feel like. This forum happens to be one of the most valuable part of FIRST, and if you don't feel like respecting that, then please post your comments else where.

I am a first time poster, and I realize this was said a while ago, but this is so remarkably true I decided to become a poster and not just a reader. I don't know a lot about robotics. I can wire up an electrical board now, I can also machine some stuff, and have ideas for concepts which I can draw pretty well, but what really matters, and what I try to share with all the teams I meet, is as simple as this. This program lit my spark. I LOVE this program. My younger cousins are in FLL and I wish I had been in FLL when I was younger. This program really is unlike anything else. I've been on sports teams with good coaches and bad coaches, and the skills we are learning here will help guide us in our lives forever. Gracious Professionalism is a beautiful aspect that I wish all places could see.

My team mates are my second family, I love my Green Wrenches, I would not be on the path to a timely graduation without them holding me to be my best, love them all. <3 2517

[cadandcookies]

I am a first time poster, and I realize this was said a while ago, but this is so remarkably true I decided to become a poster and not just a reader. I don't know a lot about robotics. I can wire up an electrical board now, I can also machine some stuff, and have ideas for concepts which I can draw pretty well, but what really matters, and what I try to share with all the teams I meet, is as simple as this. This program lit my spark. I LOVE this program. My younger cousins are in FLL and I wish I had been in FLL when I was younger. This program really is unlike anything else. I've been on sports teams with good coaches and bad coaches, and the skills we are learning here will help guide us in our lives forever. Gracious Professionalism is a beautiful aspect that I wish all places could see.

My team mates are my second family, I love my Green Wrenches, I would not be on the path to a timely graduation without them holding me to be my best, love them all. <3 2517

Not that this isn't a good thread, but it might be worth looking at the date on that last post.

Still, thank you for bringing this interesting discussion up again. It's a cool thing that we can look back at threads made ten years ago in a forum that is still being actively used today.

[Steven Smith]

I think what I took from it as well, after failing to read the original date...

There will always be people scared to see change. The same arguments will come up year after year about whether or not FIRST is meeting its objectives, why the "new thing" will destroy the spirit of FIRST, etc. However, as a new mentor, FIRST seems to embody everything it claims to. I see excited students and gracious professionals all around me. New students and new mentors eagerly asking questions and excited about this year's competition. Looks pretty successful to me ;)

-Steven

[Uncle Paul]

I tend to agree as well, but it is on the mentors to keep us all on the same GP page!