Beantown Blitz game change?

[Erin Rapacki]

Hello ALL!

Well... Beantown Blitz is still in the air, but it's looking more and more optimistic by the day! Final confirmation should be out soon. Can't rush perfection!

It has occured to me that it might be fun to change the game a little, and I'd like to know if any of you have suggestions?

Keep in mind that we must use the same field layout and robot designs. Anything that would change the overall strategie to make things more interesting is the kind of thing I'm looking for.

I figure by August many of us might be a littel tired of the old routine, so it'll be nice to spice things up a bit!

Don't bother mentioning having elimination rounds be best two out of three... we will probably end up doing that anyway.

I hope to be recieving full confirmation about the Blitz soon from NEU. About 150 teams have made the priority registration list but it will not be published until event confirmation has been recieved. Teams given priority registration will have a one or two week head start on registering for the Blitz, the event can hold 36 teams, so if there is a mad rush to register... it will be a VERY competitive event.

Remember, Blitz will be held Aug 16, 2003 in Boston (pending event confirmation.) Email me at erapacki@coe.neu.edu if you have any questions, would like to help or volunteer, or want to know if your team has made the priority registration list.

Remember... game ideas! What would YOU like to see?!


ByE

erin

[Yan Wang]

- Getting on top needs to be worth less.
- Stacking needs to worth more... may consider making stacks be worth points or perhaps knocking down a stack will result in a penalty or such, etc.

Just balance the game more.

[Kyle]

A rematch of the stacking challenge at PARC maybe..

E.Rap, if u need help with the web site you know how to reach me.

[GregTheGreat]

I agree stacking need's to be worth more. King of the hill, maybe 10 points. I think that they should of changed the game in the beginning of the season. A little more thought next time maybe.

[Madison]

Originally posted by GregTheGreat
I agree stacking need's to be worth more. King of the hill, maybe 10 points. I think that they should of changed the game in the beginning of the season. A little more thought next time maybe.

Dave L.'s going to come beat you down if you don't watch yourself ;) ...plenty of thought goes into the game.

Erin;

If you have your heart set on changing the game, there are only two things I'd touch -

1. - Change Elimination Rounds to be a 2 of 3 format. This won't have an adverse effect on robot function.

2. - Reduce the value of the ramp points. Because, through the season, so many robots have been modified to do things other than stack, I would try hard to avoid swinging the pendulum too far to the stacking end of things. You'll notice the two other replies are from stacking teams. I think that, by making the ramp points 15 rather than 25, there's still incentive to battle for the top, but stacking has more potential to play a role.

In the end, though, I think that if you do change that point value, the net result will simply be lower scoring rounds. I don't anticipate that stacking will become any more important that it's been for the past two months.

...and, likewise, if you need any help with things, I'd be more than happy to do what I can.

[SarahB]

If Erin announced a change swinging more towards stacking ahead of time, any teams that removed their stacking mechanisms would have plenty of time to reattach/improve it for the competition. I think doing something to increase the value of stacking(maybe by giving additional points for stacks or something like that) would make the matches a lot more interesting. Even if she just lowers the value for parking at the top, I think stacking will play an increased role. The teams that can stack well(MOE and Code Red come to mind, but I’ve seen some others with lots of potential) would definitely stack more and thus become more valuable.

[KevK]

yeah, make the ramp worth less, stacking worth more, that way 121 will have to use their stacker, instead of thier evil wedge.




we need to use our stacker more anyway

[Clanat]

Another potential is making stacks add to points of robots on the ramp, e.g. 25+(stackheight-1)*5 or something.

[Madison]

Originally posted by SarahB
If Erin announced a change swinging more towards stacking ahead of time, any teams that removed their stacking mechanisms would have plenty of time to reattach/improve it for the competition.

...and, in the process, bias the game toward the other end of the robot spectrum.

I don't see the point in that. The game needs balance. Stacking robots don't deserve to put at an advantage as ramp-dominating robots and stack-destroyers were during official competition.

[Jeff Waegelin]

Originally posted by M. Krass
I don't see the point in that. The game needs balance. Stacking robots don't deserve to put at an advantage as ramp-dominating robots and stack-destroyers were during official competition.

I agree. As much as stackers may wish for justification of their ideas, you can't change the game radically. It puts the teams that modified their robots to fit the "real game" at a severe disadvantage. If you swing the balance towards stacking, it puts the non-stackers in the same position the stackers were in during regionals. You may think it's fair, but as the saying goes, "two wrongs don't make a right." Wronging the non-stackers to benefit the stackers won't help anything.

[Erin Rapacki]

Thank you all for your input... this is what I have contrived so far, with help from a few others ;)

Total field layout will remain the same, it has been thought of to remove the 14" bars... but that supports the ramp structure so none of that

Robots on ramp will = 15 pts

There will be 3 colored bins on the field... at the start of the match they will be located at the 3'd stack height level in the two end stacks and one in the middle stack of the wall on the ramp (I'm aware that i've said 'stack' too much, but bear with me... it's late)

A colored bin is worth 10 additional pts if located anywhere on a alliences colored carpet (if on the floor or in a stack)

So 2 colored bins is worth more than a robot on the ramp! There will be a lot more fighting... and those stack stealing/carring robots can benifit by being able to steal colored bins more easily, but the other robots still have a chance of getting to them too.

Tell me what you think...
constructive critisism and/or support for this idea welcome


ByE

erin

[Solace]

sure, don't screw it up too much, but think about this - just include the number of bins in a stack with the number that are multiplied. If you allow the ramp to remain at its same value (25), but count the bins in a stack along with the bins on the ground, then you could go a long way towards evening it up. the nature of the game itself wouldn't change much (it would still be a bit biased towards smasher bots, seeing how it is would still be easy to knock the stacks down), but it could give some of the teams that focused primarily on stacking a running chance.

[Solace]

ok, sorry, simultaneous post.

sounds cool, but slightly complicated. This version of the game would be extremely biased towards those with excellent autonomous modes. i mean, it is kinda difficult to move individual boxes back to the other side of the field as it is, and if someone is trying to block you it would be almost impossible. basically, if you hit the wall first, you have it made...

[Erin Rapacki]

what I have noticed with AI modes is that they either hit one side of the wall or the other

so it'll benefit teams will excellent AI modes who can knock over the entire wall... fair enough

but still.... makes it more interesting, its not impossible to steal a box and it won't really make it too complicated, just add on 10 pts like we did for the 25 pt robots on the ramp

[Solace]

Originally posted by Erin Rapacki
so it'll benefit teams will excellent AI modes who can knock over the entire wall... fair enough


not necessarily just them - most robots with good auto modes will take out at least 2/3 of the wall, and that would put them at a distinct advantage as it is. And, since it is always easier to sweep stuff away than keep stuff in, and seeing that the ramp is worth a lot less, a team would basically be forced to completely destroy the other alliances score to ensure a victory.

still, the idea is a lot better than the game as it is. We're hoping to attend the blitz (if we get invited, that is), and I know that it would make the game a whole lot more interesting.

a guess basically the only gripe i would have with it is that people who aren't necessarily first addicts, yet know the basic rules of the game, would be extremely confused upon watching this new system.

[Erin Rapacki]

Yea... with the three colored boxes, this is what the 'wall' would look like;

[ColleenShaver]

I think the most important things about 'changing' the game is you don't want to create a change in the game that would render some team's robot or initial strategy useless... team's put in much time and effort into their robots and many may not want to do any changes, especially for one competition.

However- here are some suggestions I made for changes to Battlecry when the staff asked for suggestions from all participating teams. The only change being made so far for BC4 is making the elims best 2 of 3 (the right change I think, worked well at Rally this weekend as well):

- Instead of a reduction of points for KOH: Maybe rather than lessen the points for the top, offer a 'Zone Zeal' twist to the game:
Robot in gray carpet: 5 points
Robot in colored carpet: 10 points
Robot in mesh area: 15 points
Robot in HDPE: 25 points

It encourages teams to always get their robot out to the field (5 pts for not moving), plus it gives incentives to teams to build and guard stacks as opposed to just dominating the hill. It would also create some other interesting scoring scenerios (for instance, trying to move into a colored zone at the end points vs. the amount of points you would negate for any bin you were touching) while offering alternative strategies. Of course, the manner of scoring would have to be kept in line with this year's game (as opposed to Zone Zeal) where if you were touching the gray and colored carpets you would get 5, rather than 10, points [You get 25 for the top and none for touching the mesh at all this year, in 2k2 you got the benefit of higher scoring zone if you were touching both]. It would offer stackers, guarders, and OH's some new opportunities for score increases.

- Switch the robot starting positions such that one red and one blue start on each side of the field (rotate robot start positions 90 degrees basically). Obviously, warning teams ASAP would be appropriate for autonomous mode designs, but it could add some excitement to the game. Teams could choose which robot lines up in which position/side of the field.

- Move the 10 seconds of HP time to the end of the match. Would force a new and interesting on-the-fly strategy capability of the students. Change the penalty for not getting off the field in 10 seconds to HP bins not counting (any stacks or points from those bins placed by alliance HPs would be ignored), and the penalty for not being off in 20 seconds a score of zero (rather than robot being shut off). All other human player rules would stay the same including entering and exiting the field through gate, stepping only in colored areas, placing only in colored areas, no throwing of bins, and no contact with robots.

Just some new ideas to consider. Make sure any thing that may affect rules is clearly thought out before and the rules appropriately cleared up to avoid and issues that wouldn't be covered in the regular FIRST rulebook.

[Kevin Kolodziej]

While I will not be attending the Blitz (most likely), I think this will definitely add to the game. It certainly can't hurt it. I have a couple more suggestions though.

What if the two outer bins were worth slightly less than the middle bin, say 5 and 10. This would make those robot that do take out the whole wall or the middle have a slight advantage...but that one bin could also be stolen or equaled by the other two bins. Just a thought.

My other, crazier thought, is that these colored bins should count at 10 bins, not just an additional 10 points. Say, if you have a stack of 4 bins with 10 on the floor, you would normally get 40 points. If one of those on the floor is a colored one, you would actually get 76 points (4 x 19). If you had a colored one in the stack, you actually get 130 (13 x 10). This would really ramp up the scores and cause some major defense of the colored bins.

In both cases, its still way too easy to push bins out of the zones...but just think...if in the last second you have no stacks, but can put a colored one on top of something else...and you have a mess of 20 bins...you just got yourself 220 points instead of 30.

Think about it everyone.

Kev

[Madison]

I hope you're going to have many, many extra odd-colored bins ;)

[JVN]

Throw a "hanging bar" above the ramp!

It would certainly be a new spin on things.
25 points to hang.
15 points for the HDPE
10 points for the mesh

:D ;)

[GregTheGreat]

Originally posted by M. Krass
Dave L.'s going to come beat you down if you don't watch yourself ;) ...plenty of thought goes into the game.

Erin;

If you have your heart set on changing the game, there are only two things I'd touch -

1. - Change Elimination Rounds to be a 2 of 3 format. This won't have an adverse effect on robot function.

2. - Reduce the value of the ramp points. Because, through the season, so many robots have been modified to do things other than stack, I would try hard to avoid swinging the pendulum too far to the stacking end of things. You'll notice the two other replies are from stacking teams. I think that, by making the ramp points 15 rather than 25, there's still incentive to battle for the top, but stacking has more potential to play a role.

In the end, though, I think that if you do change that point value, the net result will simply be lower scoring rounds. I don't anticipate that stacking will become any more important that it's been for the past two months.

...and, likewise, if you need any help with things, I'd be more than happy to do what I can.

I agree thaqt a lot of thought goes into the game. No one knew that the game was going to be played in the way it was. Maybe they should change the name from "Stack Attack" to "Battle Bins". LOL. It has a hard game to play, but still a lot of fun.

Good Luck To Everyone at the invitationals.

[The Lucas]

1. Here is an easy way to make stacking more valuable: Multiply the height of the stack by the number of bins in the stack and the number of bins in the color carpeted area. That way a stack of five would be worth 5*5=25 (same as a robot on the ramp) by itself and the other bins would just be a bonus:) . Opponents will of often clear the bins out of ur zone while u defend/build a stack. I think it is asking too much of a robot to build/defend a stack and defend all the bins in their zone too. It also would lessen the impact of autonomous on the game since a lower number of bins on ur side could be easily overcome with a higher stack (this should make user mode more exciting).

I always thought it was stupid to exclude the bins in the stack from the multiplier. An example of how ludicrous this scoring policy is: If have a stack of 5 but no other bins in ur area it is worth zero points (5*0=0). :eek: I thought this years game was intended to be easy to understand and score on the fly. That is rather hard to explain to a spectator (5=0). The current scoring system seems like something my math prof would give us for HW :ahh: . Try to think about this problem during the heat of competition:
Maximize the function f(x,h) = h * (x-h) where h is the height of the stack and x is the number of bins in your colored area which varies based on autonomous ability and bin pushing ability.

The new scoring function would be simple (f(x,h)= x * h), and its maximum will always be x = h. So keep stacking, it cant hurt. Go for the ultra high score of 2025 with a stack of 45 (45*45=2025):D. Achieving this nearly impossible task used to be worth 0 :( .

2. Also to decrease the effect of "descoring" by pushing bins into the gray area by counting bins and stacks in the gray area by the alliance stations as if they were in the colored area (which is small). Then only neutral area for bins would be the ramp (which is huge) and the robot starting areas (hard to fit bins there). I dont think any team really likes "descoring" even if their bot is really good at it. At PARC, our exciting Qualifying Round against 25 ended up with a whopping 9-9 tie cause both sides just tried to reduce the other's score. Every bot in that match fought hard but only got 18 QPs. Also stack defense would be easier if human players could put their stack in the corner braced by the alliance station. This would make any scoring changes that favor stacking more fair, because bots that cant stack could still easily reap the benefits of stacking thru their HP stacks.

[Gadget470]

The more functions and crazy ideas you throw in, the harder it will be for spectators, including ones who were at previous regionals.

My ideas:
King of the Hill: 20 Points
Stacking, (All Bins in zone * Multiplier)

scoring in example:
15 bins are on the blue side. 12 are scattered in stacks of 1 and 2, there is a stack of 3 standing. 2 Blue robots claim the HDPE
12 bins are on the red side. 6 are scattered in stacks of 1 and 2, there is a stack of 6 standing. 1 Red robot claims the HDPE.

Current game score:
(12 * 3 = 36) + (2 * 25 = 50) = 86
(6 * 6 = 36) + (1 * 25 = 25) = 61
Blue Wins, recieves 208 QP's
Proposed game score:
(15 * 3 = 45) + (2 * 20 = 40) = 85
(12 * 6 = 72) + (1 * 20 = 20) = 92
Red Wins. recieves 262 QP's

This would have higher scoring matches, with emphasis on TALL stacks (which we all know are very hard to keep alive). The closer the SHU : Loose Bin ratio is, the more productive it is. I intentionally had equal score, similar bin amounts because it shows the swaying of king of the hill. Play with other scenarios that real games ended with and you'll see it won't sway every match, but it will sway for some of those last second fall-offs or broken down robots.
Many a match could be swayed by 12 points and many times the above scenario has played out.

[GregTheGreat]

Originally posted by Gadget470
The more functions and crazy ideas you throw in, the harder it will be for spectators, including ones who were at previous regionals.

My ideas:
King of the Hill: 20 Points
Stacking, (All Bins in zone * Multiplier)

scoring in example:
15 bins are on the blue side. 12 are scattered in stacks of 1 and 2, there is a stack of 3 standing. 2 Blue robots claim the HDPE
12 bins are on the red side. 6 are scattered in stacks of 1 and 2, there is a stack of 6 standing. 1 Red robot claims the HDPE.

Current game score:
(12 * 3 = 36) + (2 * 25 = 50) = 86
(6 * 6 = 36) + (1 * 25 = 25) = 61
Blue Wins, recieves 208 QP's
Proposed game score:
(15 * 3 = 45) + (2 * 20 = 40) = 85
(12 * 6 = 72) + (1 * 20 = 20) = 92
Red Wins. recieves 262 QP's

This would have higher scoring matches, with emphasis on TALL stacks (which we all know are very hard to keep alive). The closer the SHU : Loose Bin ratio is, the more productive it is. I intentionally had equal score, similar bin amounts because it shows the swaying of king of the hill. Play with other scenarios that real games ended with and you'll see it won't sway every match, but it will sway for some of those last second fall-offs or broken down robots.
Many a match could be swayed by 12 points and many times the above scenario has played out.

That seems like a pretty good idea. To bad it wasen't played that way. Good Thinking Gadget.

[GregTheGreat]

Originally posted by JVN
Throw a "hanging bar" above the ramp!

It would certainly be a new spin on things.
25 points to hang.
15 points for the HDPE
10 points for the mesh

:D ;)

Although it would be cool, think about how hard the game was to understand already. It was hard to explain already, think about how much harder it would be to play it with a bar over the ramp. I already think that there were to many different ways to alter scores. Add another variable, and I would probably be lost. lol.

Good Luck to everyone at the invitationals.

[OneAngryDaisy]

Originally posted by GregTheGreat
Although it would be cool, think about how hard the game was to understand already. It was hard to explain already, think about how much harder it would be to play it with a bar over the ramp. I already think that there were to many different ways to alter scores. Add another variable, and I would probably be lost. lol.

Good Luck to everyone at the invitationals.


I think JVNn was just being sarcastic.. I see his point- you don't want to change too much of the game or it won't be fun anymore.. For example, if you added two more baskets to a basketball game and threw in another ball, the game would just be utter chaos.. I agree with those who say that only the KOH score/ stack multiplier should be changed.. Keep the game simple and fun..

[Clanat]

It seems like the easiest solution that wouldn't change the game too much is just making stacks also count in the bin total. The KOH doesn't have to be changed when you have the extra points from a stack (5 stack = KOH)

[Nick Mac]

As long as you don't make things to complicated, then i think the first annual blitz is golden.

[Mike Schroeder]

Originally posted by JVN
Throw a "hanging bar" above the ramp!

It would certainly be a new spin on things.
25 points to hang.
15 points for the HDPE
10 points for the mesh

:D ;)

hehe *dusts off 2000 robot*

[Ryan Foley]

chage elimination round format to 2 out of 3

make king of the hill points worth less

include the bins in the highest stack as part of the total # of bins on that side (5 bins on ground with a stack of 3 more would be 8*3 = 24)

[Bill Becker]

2 out of 3
Colored Bins is COOOL!
Count stack bins

How about changing draft so that you can't draft other top seeds? PLEASE! I hate it when 1 drafts 2, 3 drafts 4, etc.

Then you have Battle Cry where 20 declines to draft?? and 21 (us) drafts 23 then draws 34 for our third. How fair is that? We put up a darn good fight though!

[dez250]

all good ideas so far this events going to be awesome, cant wait till August!
~Mike