East Coast, West Coast, and Midwest FIRST

[Aaron Lussier]

Hi All,

I haven't really started a good thread in a while so here goes.

While at IRI in the OMNI hotel lobby, Ashlee Snodgrass, JVN, myself and a few engineers from team 308 became engaged in a conversation about how East coast FIRST, West Coast FIRST and Midwest FIRST, are different from each other, this also includes stuff I talked about with DJ Fluck later the next night. Here are something things I picked up about the conversation.

West Coast FIRST teams are practically family, often for them it does not matter who wins the regional, it just matters that they had fun doing what they love doing, with organizations like the WRRF, SCRRF, and competition such as the OCCRA the entire west coast seems to be one giant family with all teams helping out other teams in need

Midwest FIRST teams are piratically the same way as the West coast teams, but the problem with the mid west is the amount of teams spread over such a large area, its hard to keep close with some of the teams, however this is not the case with the entire Midwest, Organizations like Indiana FIRST are beginning to bring Midwest teams together to a place where they can all talk about things that they need to make there team successful, </Shameless plug> and plus they have got IRI </Shameless Plug>
From what I have heard and seen it seems Midwest teams are very in to trying to invent new ways to do certain tasks and different ways to do things that everybody does all ready i.e Mighty Mouse.

East coast FIRST seems to differ greatly from both West coast and Midwest FIRST. Teams from the East coast seem to have more of a desire to win, they like taking something that they know works and use it every year (the MAJORITY of the teams) a good example is team 173 R.A.G.E they have used the same drive for the past 4-5 years I believe. This is why from what I have witnessed at East coast regionals, the East coast Powerhouse teams try so hard to win.

So... anybody have anything to comment on? This is not meant to single certain teams out or to bash them, this is simply things that I have noticed taking with others and being on a FIRST team for three years.

Post Away.

[Kristina]

Wow, Ken L and I were just talking about this last night. Well I guess I can only comment about what I'm pretty familiar with and that's the West Coast teams. I'd say the assessment is pretty right on. There's no denying the fact that there's competitiveness but I don't think it's as aggressive from what I've heard of at other parts of the country. There's something about it over here but we usually seem really "kick-back" about everything in life, and it holds true with robotics.

California being a pretty large state with lots of teams and organizations like WRRF and SCRRF to me seems really disconnected from everyone else, which can be good and bad at times. Less drama, but sometimes boring. There's always lots of camraderie and helping other teams but that seems aparant nation wide. And of course in California you have the mini North and South rivalry which is always fun.

Sidenote: practically, not piratically. Sorry, 6 weeks of being an English major and you develop little pet peeves.

[Bill Gold]

Originally posted by Tytus Gerrish
its hard to post when i have to read an essay first
Then maybe you shouldn't post. Let someone who actually read it reply...

Getting back to the main topic of this thread... Aaron, that description is pretty much in line with my conclusions. Although, another characteristic that I think belongs to Midwest teams moreso than East or West coast teams is the "flashy robot." There seems to be, on average, more anodizing, powder coating, and other decorative features on their robots (and carts for that matter [i.e. Truck Town Thunder ;)]).

[Dan Richardson]

Originally posted by Bill Gold
Then maybe you shouldn't post. Let someone who actually read it reply...

Getting back to the main topic of this thread... Aaron, that description is pretty much in line with my conclusions. Although, another characteristic that I think belongs to Midwest teams moreso than East or West coast teams is the "flashy robot." There seems to be, on average, more anodizing, powder coating, and other decorative features on their robots (and carts for that matter [i.e. Truck Town Thunder ;)]).

more of this where?

east coast or west coast.. I'm kinda confused on which one you meant I know our team sometimes cocentrates on making the bot look good than how it performs ( however all we have to show for it are a couple of voted by peers best looking robot awards )

I actually wish there was more comradery down here in florida.. except for a few friends we are all just kinda spread apart and go our merry ways.. there are attempts such as the robot rodeo and the failed seaside squabble to bring together many of the local teams but there just doesn't seem to be enough.. we are on our own little penninsula ( goodness I hope I spelled that right with kristina up on this thread lol ) and there doesn't seem much to go on.

However I heard that a few members of some teams in our area were trying to convince the school board to make it manditory for all broward ( and mayb dade ) schools to have a FIRST team.. that would mean like 8 new teams in the area and would be great florida.

The more the marrier since its hard for many of us to get anywhere except for regionals in orlando or mayb the occasional peach tree ( crosses fingures for next year )

::edit :: also we have a new drive train every year we have competed, never used the same one, sometimes a good and sometimes a bad thing :: edit ::

[Ashley Weed]

This seems right on as how I have perceived FIRST over the past 4 years. The West Coast has always seemed to be together... and almos on their own with their sub-organizations. As you migrate east to the midwest, some follows, however... you start to pick up traits of teams who have been around for a while, and are international powerhouses. As for the east coast, right on the head with your statement - many teams have been established for a long time, and using the same drive system for 5+ teams.

[Cory]

I agree with all the statements made so far. It feels sort of lonely out here in California since were all so spread out. we have to drive at least 4 hours in any direction to see a significant number of teams that arent in our area, whereas in the midwest you can drive four hours and be in another state, or close to it. even though California has the most FIRST teams of any state, it seems as if midwest and east teams have more contact between other teams. Dont get me wrong, we have plenty of contact between our local teams, but we just dont get to see many more teams than the ones right where we live. When you talk about the west coast, you generally think of the newer teams, which isnt really true, some of us will be going into our 8th, 9th, or even 10th seasons. When you think of the midwest, you think of the older teams, as with the east. I agree that most of the "powerhouse teams" can be found in the midwest/east. Overall, I just have the opinion that the west coast is more isolated from the midwest/east.

On a sidenote: where does Canada fall into the west/midwest/east classification?

Cory

[Brandon Martus]

Originally posted by Cory
On a sidenote: where does Canada fall into the west/midwest/east classification?

Technically, they could fall into all three. But, if I'm not mistaken most teams are in the Ontario area. There are 38 in ON, 2 in Quebec, 1 in Newfoundland, and that's it. So a majority of Canada would fall into mid-west, I think.

note: numbers found using the interactive map on usfirst.org

[Jeff Waegelin]

There is a definite increase in concentration of teams in the Midwest. Just look at the metro Detroit area. There are over 30 teams all in a very small area. While California has the most teams, Michigan has more per-capita than any other state. The difference is obvious, when you have 3 teams in one school district, and there can easily be 5 teams within 10 miles of your home.

I would also agree with the tendency of Midwest teams to be more concerned about robot appearance. We don't focus on that to the point of hurting performance, but we like our robots to look as good as they play.

Finally, the Midwest teams seem to form an informal association, too. When you see the same teams at two or three different regionals, you get to know the names well. There's so many teams and events in the Midwest that the teams here tend to stick together, often picking alliance partners from within their ranks. There's no formal organization (yet), but there is a definite grouping of the Midwest teams.

[Dave_222]

If you have ever seen our machine or ever talked to most of our team members you know we don't fit the typical east coast mold. Those of you who saw us or talked to me at IRI know winning didn't mean much too us and that next year we will have a totally revamped drive system. I do have to agree with the overall synopsis of this thread though.

[Madison]

Well, for the most part, wouldn't you all agree that this West/Midwest/East distinction mirrors what exists in practically every other facet of our culture?

The West is a center of liberal thinking, is laid back, and is otherwise a bit more utopian than most other places. The frontier spirit lives on in people, even today.

The Midwest hasn't ever had time for a free spirit. They're farmers and industrialists at heart. The work hard for their keep, they do things "the right way," and they take immense pride in themselves and their work.

The East, finally, has always been the business center of the country. Business and capitalism thrive on competition. FIRST is a corporate-driven organization that manages to maintain lofty ideals. Still, in the East, I think we see that the fierce competition among corporations trickles down to our teams.

[WernerNYK]

I was thinking that same thing as M. Agreeing with most everything said above, there isn't much left for me to post without repeating what has already been said.

When we travelled all the way out west to the Seattle regional this year, I was able to notice a lot of these differences. I also think that a lot of the teams there noticed our difference being from the East. I think they were able to notice our increased competitiveness and such. We always had people crowding in our pit checking us out -- at the Manchester regional it almost seems as if teams try to check out from a distance -- almost trying not to show TOO much interest. All the western teams were very welcoming and most would love to have us back, whereas there were a few teams I think that did not like our competitiveness and more or less made comments that we should tone it down, or take it easy.

Hmm, this is quite an interesting discussion indeed.

[AdamT]

Originally posted by M. Krass
Well, for the most part, wouldn't you all agree that this West/Midwest/East distinction mirrors what exists in practically every other facet of our culture?

The West is a center of liberal thinking, is laid back, and is otherwise a bit more utopian than most other places. The frontier spirit lives on in people, even today.

The Midwest hasn't ever had time for a free spirit. They're farmers and industrialists at heart. The work hard for their keep, they do things "the right way," and they take immense pride in themselves and their work.

The East, finally, has always been the business center of the country. Business and capitalism thrive on competition. FIRST is a corporate-driven organization that manages to maintain lofty ideals. Still, in the East, I think we see that the fierce competition among corporations trickles down to our teams.

I tend to agree with this comment, although I come from a fairly isolated area of the East Coast.

To add to this idea, I present my team. The most brethren feelings our team has are toward the two teams in which the original mentors came from, one team we helped mentor, and one team in our general region of Virginia. This is similar to the relations of businesses and their relationship to their parent corporations.

At the same time that there is the stated overall feeling from the different regions of the country (and Canada), I do know there is a small voice from many of the East Coast teams that wishes to fraternize with more teams and for more bonds similar to the West Coast teams.

The problem in creating this atmosphere begins when looking at basic geography and concentration of teams. If you look at the Northeastern US, there is a high concentration of teams. Within this region, I get the feeling there is much more fraternizing between teams (even if competitive fraternizing) when compared to further down the Eastern Sea Board.

My team is from an area where the closest team is 45 minutes drive, the next being 3 hours away. While I know this is a bad excuse with the levels of technology in communication, it is much easier to fraternize and work with teams if you can easily drive part of your team to another team's meeting place. I believe there are many similar situations all along the mid to southern Eastern Sea Board with exceptions to urban and metropolis areas.

The ideal thing would be to of course spawn more teams, and be closer to teams. This, unfortunately, is not readily implemented because of sponsorship situations in the area. For example, the area of Southwest Virginia that 401 is from is basically at maximum capacity when it comes to finding money to fund teams. The teams in the area have no corporate sponsors and fundraise using other methods. At the same time, 5 hours drive southeast and the Robodawgs sponsored by IBM have had funding to spawn several teams, plus mentor and sponsor Lego League teams.

So the question is, how do you replicate the West Coast "utopian" ideal in a region that is far from similar in a geographic and socio-economic standpoint?

[Wayne C.]

Originally posted by Aaron Lussier
Hi All,

East coast FIRST seems to differ greatly from both West coast and Midwest FIRST. Teams from the East coast seem to have more of a desire to win, they like taking something that they know works and use it every year (the MAJORITY of the teams) a good example is team 173 R.A.G.E they have used the same drive for the past 4-5 years I believe. This is why from what I have witnessed at East coast regionals, the East coast Powerhouse teams try so hard to win.

Post Away.

Aaron-
Wow- I don't know how to take that. And we even gave you dinner!!

Boy have you got that backwards. At least in our regional. True, the teams play to win but who doesn't? I don't know if my guys are one of the "powerhouse teams" you mention but speaking for them I can state that winning is nice but not everything. I know of a few teams that are "win at all cost" oriented and a bit rude about it but isn't that the same in all competitive events?
I do recall seeing drivers of Midwest teams in the past crying at the control station when they lost if that counts for something.

I see no difference in how innovative the regions are. There is nothing wrong with reusing a design that works and improving on it. Teams also learn from each other because many east coast teams actually help one another. The nature of the game tends to have a "convergent evolution" of sorts after a few years. If there is a reuse issue it might also be the artifact of many poorly supported teams with limited resources trying to stay in the program by doing that they know.

What I do see in the east coast teams I didn't see as much of recently in the midwest is an abundance of spirit and enthusiasm. This includes crazy mascots, bands, cheerleaders, Moesticks and noisemakers- glitzy stuff that makes the event raucous and fun. In our regional we cheer for EVERYBODY and try to make outsiders welcome.

Another big difference seen in the Northeast as opposed to other regions is a greater diversity of sponsors. I could only dream of having a Kleiner Perkins, NASA or similar major sponsor core group to help us build teams in the Northeast. So as the result there are a number of smaller groups thrown together and that may lead to a "business pride" and more competitive atmosphere.

More decorative robots in the Midwest- possibly. If the number of racing trailers I saw on the way back from IRI is an indication I think I can see where it is coming from. Looks like the automotive industry influence to me.

To be honest, recently at IRI, I too noticed a difference in the "FIRST culture" comparing home (East) and the Midwest. I was rather uncomfortable about some of the experiences I had. It definitely changed MY view of FIRST for the future. And some of MY observations are diametrically opposite yours. Come out to our regional next March and maybe we can change your mind.

WC:cool:

[Aaron Lussier]

Originally posted by Wayne C.
Come out to our regional next March and maybe we can change your mind.

WC:cool:

I'll be sure to make it out there:D

[Mark Hamilton]

Originally posted by Aaron Lussier
piratically

ARRRRRR!!!

Now being serious, I think this division isnt surprising at all. It reflects a lot of differences between the different regions of the county in all other matters. Add to this the fact that as FIRST originated in the North-East, most of the oldest teams are on the East coast. Older teams, imo, are more competitive. When you have been around since the start, there is more pressure to win. Just from my personal experience I can attest to this. As a freshmen, the experience in itself was satisfying. As a senior, with responsibilities to the whole team, I found myself really wanting to win. I think this is natural. As a team develops and establishes a system and routine, more attention is paid to the sport aspect.
Speaking as a member of an East Coast team I'd also like to say that a lot of cooperation goes on away from competition, that you might not have seen. I think in most cases we have struck a balance between the competitive spirit that drives us to improve and cooperation and friendship.

[Mike Schroeder]

i dont think that the east coast is truly its own division in my experiance, the eastcoast, is more like the North East, Mid atlantic, and then the south east, i am not sure how the south east works, but i know that the north east is a VERY competitive reagion, where as, i dont think that the central part of the east coast, is as competitive, but instead are more for spreading FIRST throughout the region. but i cannont speak about the south east area, i have never seen/attended a regional there

[AlbertW]

it's funny. alot of the east coast teams i've heard of all have ONE parent company (delphi, GM, ford, whatever)

out here we're all scrambing for money from any company that can spare it, mainly because of the tech downturn.

I don't know whether or not that would lead to more bonding between teams (desperation?) but having lots of money seems like it would make you more competitive.

[Matt Leese]

As is the problem with most generalizations, they aren't exactly true in all cases. While the West Coast has done a good job of fostering a family atmosphere, I know of some teams that are disliked by other teams on the West Coast. I also know of areas on the East Coast where teams manage to become very close and friendly; I think we do a good job of this in Rochester.

I think a lot of the difference in teams has to do with the distribution of money. There is a lot of resentment from some of the smaller teams (and usually the more rookie teams unfortunately) towards some of the "big money" teams. From my very non-scientific investigation, I'd believe most of the "big money" teams are from the East Coast or Mid-West and there aren't as many from the West Coast.

As a correction, OCCRA is run in the Mid-West (Michigan) not the West Coast) as I believe the original post pointed out. And as far as NASA sponsorship in the North East goes, it is available. The North East (basically, north of Virginia and east of Ohio non-inclusive) is the responsibility of NASA Goddard.

Matt

[Ryan Albright]

I have to agree that East Coast is somewhat competitive out of what i see,but i mean everyone has a competitive side, some show it more then others. Its like playing a friendly game of basketball, you first say that you are not gonna keep score you are gonna shoot around and just have fun with it, but when you start playing your competitve side kicks in and you step it up a knotch. I mean i have seen teams from all over with there competivitve side. I think that all this competition is very controlled, i dont see fist fights or anythign and at the end of the day no matter if a team flipped your robot to make you lose a match or a team broke your robot, everyone is still friends. Thats what i like about FIRST it promotes friendly competition. I play hockey and that is a sport that everyone is your enemy except for yoru own team. Thats why i like FIRST i could have a nice competitive competition against teams like 108,267 and then at the end be talking to 108 about networking and goign out to dinner with 267.

About teams that keep the same driver etc etc. They have found something they like and if it helps them win so be it. I mean are team has never kept the same drive, heck are team cant even decide on a team color every year we are a dif color we went from green(2001) to camoflauge(2002) to this year being grey and blue. We tried soemthing in 2002 that we liked and i mean we stuck with it this year for are robot. Sooner or latter the game is gonna require a team to change their drive but if they want to keep their drive fine it gives us another year to learn how/or to beat it. :)



Sorry if this is all nonsense, Kinda early in the morning

[Ashley Weed]

If you look at the Northeastern US, there is a high concentration of teams. Within this region, I get the feeling there is much more fraternizing between teams (even if competitive fraternizing) when compared to further down the Eastern Sea


However, not always true of the Northeast. Where we are located, the closest team from ones house is 45+ min. We have team members who tavel long distances to be a member of FIRST. In addition the closest teams (222, 284, Ithaca, and Clarks Summit), are 2+ hours away - in different directions. Probably other rural teams of the eastcoast will also have similar situations, so fraternizing can be done at a distance of each other.



I do recall seeing drivers of Midwest teams in the past crying at the control station when they lost if that counts for something.


Ohh.. so that's something found throughout FIRST? Geez, and for two years, everyone always laughed/yelled at me because some of us just have too much love for our robots.
:p

[Joe Matt]

I totally agree that teams on the east coast are more competitive than other teams. Sure, we help each other out a lot, but in our fair corner of VA, in Richmond, our county has supported and wanted FIRST teams. Not only has this increased competitiveness on the field, but off since resources are getting depleted with every new team.

[Aaron Lussier]

Originally posted by Matt Leese

As a correction, OCCRA is run in the Mid-West (Michigan) not the West Coast) as I believe the original post pointed out.
Matt

Oops, Sorry about that, I guess I should have looked in to it a little bit further before posting, sorry.

[Keith Chester]

Anyone who visits the Rutgers Regional, as my advisor said, will quickly change their mind about the central East of FIRST. We're quite possibly the friendliest people you shall ever meet, and we'll be sure to make everyone feel welcome. For example, a Brazillian team that came to our regional this year- Not only did we help them out when they needed it, but some of our members spent a lunchbreak or two playing soccer with them just to make them feel at home! Some of our members even spent a few nights after the regional hanging out with them.

[Yan Wang]

All I have to say is, East coast represent!

I wish there was a NY regional... lots of teams in this great state.

[Dan Richardson]

Originally posted by Replic
Anyone who visits the Rutgers Regional, as my advisor said, will quickly change their mind about the central East of FIRST. We're quite possibly the friendliest people you shall ever meet, and we'll be sure to make everyone feel welcome. For example, a Brazillian team that came to our regional this year- Not only did we help them out when they needed it, but some of our members spent a lunchbreak or two playing soccer with them just to make them feel at home! Some of our members even spent a few nights after the regional hanging out with them.

Yeah it did really seem like that, infact our team was kinda jealous we could not attend it. UCF is a great regional but Rutgers seemed generally just like a lot of fun

I know here in south east we are pretty competetive yet nice competetive. Even tho we had the infamous collusion-between-teams regional this year.

When you really start to look at the way things are regionals around the nation seem to in some way reflect the culture of the teams. Nationals is just one big cultural experience ( more and more with the teams from diff. countries )

Thats what makes FIRST so unique how culture and the time is reflected through our bots, but at the same time we all get along ( for the most part ) with no problem. People who would never had been brought together or met each other if it wasn't for FIRST. FIRST teaches many life lessons but I believe the most important is we are all different. Thats whats so great about FIRST it can bring peopel from literally everywhere to build a robot and Play a game. It sounds simple but all involved with first for a while knows its soo much more than that.

Its good to realize that some teams are more competitive than others, some are more Laid back than others. All are needed to have the greatest FIRST experience, if it was always about winning people would have a harder time having fun, if it was always about having a good time there would be no competition.

[Ashley Weed]

Originally posted by monsieurcoffee
All I have to say is, East coast represent!

I wish there was a NY regional... lots of teams in this great state.

...technically.. there are two... NYC and Long Island....

.. but I agree.. it would be AWESOME to have one in Greater New York State.... I too would love to see Cornell host a regional, and would be extremely grateful to finally have a regional close to home! :)

[Yan Wang]

Oops, sorry, I was referring to one in the Central/Upstate region closer to the Syracuse/Rochestor/Ithaca area. Lots of great teams in Rochestor, one in Syracuse (or more??), and one here in Ithaca :P

Yeah, Cornell has plenty of space but Ithaca is so small that it's hard to see it having enough hotel/boarding choices for teams. I see Syracuse University as a good place to host one... especially since it's at the center of everything.

[Andrew Rudolph]

Down here in South Florida about 4 years ago a miami alliance was formed, but then when battlebots recruited nola we lost that. All the teams from our school district helped eachother in one way or another. But we all definelty are competitive with eachother, i think the southeast has fun with its little rivalries that are very friendly. But when it comes down to it we all go to our sun bathed homes and are friends.

[Aignam]

We shouldn't be labeling FIRST teams according to their differences because we shouldn't have to. We're all united for one purpose, the competition is just what brings us together. A certain level of aggressiveness is to be expected, but regardless of anything that happens, there should be no booing at competitions, only cheers. True, many of us want to win, but in the end, all of us, each and every one, are working to expand FIRST and to promote the inspiration and recognition of science and technology through gracious professionalism.

[Keith Chester]

Many of you are wondering how the posts of pictures from "IRI" in Aignam's (and Big Mike's) very hotel room pertain to FIRST, and why they're kept on Delphi.

When 25 was at the competition, we competed as we always have- aiming to have fun over winning, and making new friends constantly.

Yet when we got back after a disappointing first day at IRI, our 4 non parental members all headed back to Aignam's room - followed by practically the rest of FIRST.
With people from the high northeast, mid east, mid west and far west all in one hotel room, we had the time of our lives simply by sitting there.

It was then that I realized something.
This easy world of friends, of people that you can talk to for hours on end without knowing one another? That's FIRST.
The robots? That's all second to this.

East? West? Mid-west? Did we even realize that we lived literally up to 1000 miles away from eachother? No, we just had fun. Did we realize that some of our teams were going to cross paths one day, only one emerging victorious? No, there was just the fun. Did any one of us even think twice about where the other came from? Nope. Just a heckuvalotta fun.

[Soukup]

hmmmm. interesting posts... indeed. I was hoping a discussion like this would come up eventually so I could share my views.

As a robotics team in the midwest division I have found many things. One, our team is very lucky. We have 4 teams within about 10 miles of each other (74, 85, 107, 141). And we have always been somewhat close. I believe that no matter where the region is, every team is close because we have the same common goal : If we win, great, but it's more about enjoying everything that you do, and having the time of your life.

There is however one major difference in the Midwest that nobody has pointed out, maybe out forgetfullness or politeness. If anyone had a chance to watch the Great Lakes Regional, or the Chicago one, you'll notice one thing. Every robot there is built like a powerhouse. There are no flimsy mechanisms or unguarded areas of the robot. We learned eraly one in my freshman year, these regionals are war. If you don't believe me, look at the way that robots are outfitted. This robots are all made to withstand the MOST extreme circumstances. Teams from the midwest know that there will be a tremendous amounted of pushing and shoving and that nobody is safe. There is a reason that Midwest regionals are statistically the hardest, because basically any team can win. It's fair to say that at any midwest regional, any part of your robot can be broken off. I know that Wildstang's wings took a terrible beating at Great Lakes and that Beatty was FLIPPED at Chicago.

Now don;t get me wrong there are a large abundance of strong teams form around the country. And many of them are incredibly sound teams that have the capability to beat any Midwest team (I know, we got beat by 3 non-midwest teams in the Galileo semifinals). There is just a very strong concentration of tough teams in the Midwest area. So do not take this as a threatening post meant to start a thread war, it's only an opinion for you to consider.

Thanks:)

[JVN]

I just want to say, that while the Midwest teams might be the "toughest"... they should all come up to NH or Conn next year.

The New England teams will... open your eyes. :D

That's right... I'm challenging all your midwesterners to come up north and play! :D ;)

[Steve W]

As one from the north, a place called Canada, I wonder about what I am residing. Just new to FIRST (2 years), I havn't seen any differences in the meets I have been to. Last year I attended Cleveland and the Canadian regional. This year I was at Pittsburgh, Canadian, West Michigan and Championships. Every event I attended I saw co-operation, friendships and competition. No event looked any different to me. I made a point of visiting every team at the regionals and every team in the Currie division at Championship. Everyone was very friendly to me and always willing to talk about how their robots worked. Maybe I need to experience a little more but maybe it is personalities that we are judging not areas. Our team is looking at skipping championship next year to visit a West Coast regional. Maybe that would change my mind, I hope not. I notice a lot of posts here by Team 25. I believe that you are a East Coast team. If so then you don't seem to fill the East Coast criteria. I really enjoyed your team at Championships (I wear your shirt everywhere). Keep up the good work you are doing.

[WernerNYK]

Originally posted by JVN
I just want to say, that while the Midwest teams might be the "toughest"... they should all come up to NH or Conn next year.

The New England teams will... open your eyes. :D

That's right... I'm challenging all your midwesterners to come up north and play! :D ;)

/me agrees. Either of the New England regionals, or even any of the off-season comps -- BattleCry in particular (yea, I'm tootin my own horn there, but those who have been to BC must admit that it's good :cool: )

[Chris Fultz]

Originally posted by Wayne C.
[To be honest, recently at IRI, I too noticed a difference in the "FIRST culture" comparing home (East) and the Midwest. I was rather uncomfortable about some of the experiences I had. It definitely changed MY view of FIRST for the future. And some of MY observations are diametrically opposite yours. Come out to our regional next March and maybe we can change your mind.

WC:cool: [/B]

Can you elaborate on how the IRI changed your view of FIRST?
I am interested....

[JVN]

Originally posted by WernerNYK
/me agrees. Either of the New England regionals, or even any of the off-season comps -- BattleCry in particular (yea, I'm tootin my own horn there, but those who have been to BC must admit that it's good :cool: )

Of course...
Battlecry always draws the best from the Northeast!
You guys should expand to accomodate more teams for 2004... :D

[Al Skierkiewicz]

This is an interesting thread... I hadn't really noticed all that much difference between geographical areas. There are a lot of strong robots at Great Lakes and Midwest Regionals because they have been around a long time. Many of the teams are veterans and we have learned from each other. Remember we were on the frontier for a few years before the western and southern states started getting teams. During my first few years, the furthest west team was Baxter Bomb Squad (Mountain Home, Arkansas). In my mind we have been friends with anyone we see on a regular basis. (That should be obvious.) In years past, members of our team dated members of teams from Indiana, Michigan and even Arkansas. If you want to get to know someone in this group, you only have to hang out in their pit for a while, ask questions, talk strategy, etc. The greatest impetus for this "family" movement has been the alliance concept. Of course the belief you can ask for help, parts, even drivers from any team has helped a great deal as well.

[SaxMan701]

Well, I'm too lazy to read all the replies, but judging from the original post:
Yeah, you're probably right. But there's a reason. It's the same reason why small town folk generally seem more friendly than big city people. The west and midwest teams are more few and far between than the eastern ones, so they have no reason to compete that much. The eastern teams don't have any reason to keep close together, so they compete more.

On a closely related topic, but I didn't really want to start a new thread:
I think there are three types of teams. Of course, it may only be us easterners, but still, nonetheless.

1. Teams who do the obvious thing (this year being going up the ramp in auto, for example). These teams usually never "break through", and after years of work, never have the chance to shine.

2. Teams who do something different (stack slapper, etc). It depends, but on average, these teams are fairly well known (84, 88, etc.). In competition, they do better than the 1s, but not quite as well as...

3. Teams who do the obvious thing (see #1) and are good at it. They usually go very far, and win competitions. Examples: 25, 365, and 222's gettin' up there.

Any comments? I'm sure not every team fits exactly into one of them, but it's at least a basic outline.

[Keith Chester]

Originally posted by SaxMan701
Well, I'm too lazy to read all the replies, but judging from the original post:


No offense, but don't post then. At least skim.

And the obvious thing? Take a closer look at our bot and tell us that it is such an obvious concept that the first week was a breeze when it came to planning.

Oh, and we stacked too. So not like boxkilling is the only thing we did.

[Mike Schroeder]

Originally posted by Steve W
I notice a lot of posts here by Team 25. I believe that you are a East Coast team. If so then you don't seem to fill the East Coast criteria. I really enjoyed your team at Championships (I wear your shirt everywhere). Keep up the good work you are doing.

Steve, Thank you but i can tell you there are many other teams that are like us, if not MORE friendlier in the East Coast, Teams like 175, 303, 365, 11, 222,341,229,190,316 just to name a few. We are all willing to help each other anyway possible, but at the same time make an attempt to win which is what we all do, I know i am in this program to have fun, and learn about robots, not really winning, but i know that when ANYONE competes, they have a little part of them that wants to win, its called human nature. while i am intruged by the disscussion taking place in the thread, i think that everyone should just take a step back and look at the whole picture, FIRST is a family, not an organization full of regions, we all try to help each other, not cause it benifits us, but because its graciously proffesional

[Matt Leese]

As far as an Upstate NY regional goes, all I can say is that we're working on it.

Matt

[Wayne C.]

Originally posted by Chris Fultz
Can you elaborate on how the IRI changed your view of FIRST?
I am interested....

Since you asked-

1. IRI was staged on par with a regional and yet the cost was only $300 per team. I work with the local regional committee and we are talking thousands per team. I know IRI got some sponsorship funding. But the question in my mind is, where are we spending all that money for the regional and how can we be more efficient?

2. Not to offend or stir up a tempest but the local crowd at IRI was essentially cold to us. What stands out in my mind is sitting most of the day with one team we respected for years. We cheered and clapped when their machine went out and talked to the folks as we sat. When OUR machine went out the same people rooted for the other guy.
Now I know everybody has favorites but it made me feel unwelcome.

3. On the other hand a number of teams we knew from past paths crossing did reunite with us and we did have some fun. One circumstance I recall is two kids from the Huskies visited our pits and said hi. Made my day. When you spend two days in transit to attend an event it is nice to know somebody is happy to see you there.

So in essence the situation seemed to be- if they knew you somebody clapped for you and supported you, if they don't you were a threat. We went out to play the Nat. finals winners one more time and have fun- thats it. It seemed a bit too serious about winning for my taste.

So in the end the question is" would I drive 12 hrs. again to go to an event in the Midwest?". Right now the answer is probably no.

WC

[Jeff Waegelin]

Originally posted by Wayne C.
So in essence the situation seemed to be- if they knew you somebody clapped for you and supported you, if they don't you were a threat. We went out to play the Nat. finals winners one more time and have fun- thats it. It seemed a bit too serious about winning for my taste.

I think that all goes back to the tendency of Midwest teams to associate with each other. You tend to support the teams you're familiar with, and while those of us on the forums know 25 well, to the average Midwest FIRST student, you're somewhat of an unknown quantity. They may have seen you in the finals in Houston, but they don't really know you. I think that would happen to anyone outside their "home area" so to speak. I guess we all need to do a better job of welcoming outsiders. I for one was glad 25 came. It made IRI a lot more exciting.

[Koko Ed]

Originally posted by Matt Leese
As far as an Upstate NY regional goes, all I can say is that we're working on it.

Matt

The Blue Cross Arena would be perfect.

As for the generalized regions, I never cared for such things because that's painting teams in those areas with a wide brush. When I look at the comparisons of the areas teams come from I'd say the X-Cats are more Western in nature than Eastern.
We are more about inspiring our kids and spreading the word of FIRST and gracious professionalism than winning awards left and right (because if winning awards was all we were about we'd go to more than just one regional and the championships).
Each team is not a reflection of the region they are in, or even the amount of money they have really but their leadership up top. They set the tone of how a team goes about it's business. Now, perhaps in a given area, teams act in a similar fashion but there are probably teams that act otherwise as well. So these things are quite accurate.

[Ricky Q.]

Originally posted by Wayne C.
Since you asked-

1. IRI was staged on par with a regional and yet the cost was only $300 per team. I work with the local regional committee and we are talking thousands per team. I know IRI got some sponsorship funding. But the question in my mind is, where are we spending all that money for the regional and how can we be more efficient?

So in essence the situation seemed to be- if they knew you somebody clapped for you and supported you, if they don't you were a threat. We went out to play the Nat. finals winners one more time and have fun- thats it. It seemed a bit too serious about winning for my taste.

So in the end the question is" would I drive 12 hrs. again to go to an event in the Midwest?". Right now the answer is probably no.

WC

The major money difference is probably in the venue. IRI was a regional size competition with respect to the number of teams attending, but you won't see a regional held at a local high school anytime soon. FIRST pays big bucks to use the venues they use, and we help them out with our fees.

And I would agree with the second statement, because thats how it is in almost any major competitive event in this country. For example, you goto a baseball game to root for your hometown team (i.e the Brewers :p), you don't care who the people are on the other team, they are just the other team that has to lose.

I know FIRST is different than this, we are supposed to be family and all one together. But if one of your team's friends (someone you know very well) is going up against someone you have no clue about, the chances are you'll go for the team you know, Its just the way it is.

The Midwest is competitive, its our nature, we play to win or don't play at all, but if we lose we take it graciously.

[Ryan Dognaux]

Originally posted by Wayne C.
Since you asked-
2. Not to offend or stir up a tempest but the local crowd at IRI was essentially cold to us. What stands out in my mind is sitting most of the day with one team we respected for years. We cheered and clapped when their machine went out and talked to the folks as we sat. When OUR machine went out the same people rooted for the other guy.
Now I know everybody has favorites but it made me feel unwelcome.


I also think this has to do w/ the Midwest association thing. I clapped for everyone or I just didn't clap at all (at least, I think I did). Now I don't know about other teams in the Midwest... but our team generally tends to stay within our own team (with a few exceptions). I don't know if people are shy, or if they just want to stay to themselves. You and many other teams had an amazing robot, and I know I clapped for ya (if that's any compensation lol) :D

[Ashley Weed]

Originally posted by Wayne C.

2. Not to offend or stir up a tempest but the local crowd at IRI was essentially cold to us. What stands out in my mind is sitting most of the day with one team we respected for years. We cheered and clapped when their machine went out and talked to the folks as we sat. When OUR machine went out the same people rooted for the other guy.
Now I know everybody has favorites but it made me feel unwelcome.


From my experiences, I have found this to be true here on the east coast as well. Last year (Zone Zeal) was he first year 84 really became competitive and active in the off-season. After a marvelous time at Rutgers, we made MANY friends, and in return we competed in off-season events including PARC, MD Fair and Ramp Riot. By following the same general teams throughout those competitions, we became friends with several teams such as 103, 25, and 341.
To summarize - through that friendship, this year... we (84 floor team) continued our support of these new bonds. We traveled to the Chesapeake Regional not just to get a glimps of the game, but to support our 'bonds' made the previous year. This continued for us throuh the season and at the Championship Event. Eventhough our team was not out there.... we still felt that these bonds that we had made were important.... and we cheered for those that we knew... or felt had supported us through our journeys.

..... just a random thought thrown in the bucket ....

[Jeff Waegelin]

Originally posted by Ricky Q.
The Midwest is competitive, its our nature, we play to win or don't play at all, but if we lose we take it graciously.

Well said, Ricky. That's kindof the impression I've always had of teams in this area. Case in point: Wildstang at this year's Nationals. We'd just finished alliance selection, and 111's operator came up to me and wished us luck, and said he hoped one of us would get to take home the national title. When they beat us in the Archimedes finals, we did the same, congratulated them on their win, thanked them for two great matches, and wished them luck in the finals. The Midwest teams can sometimes seem standoffish and ultra-competitive, but we're always gracious about it.

[Matt Leese]

Originally posted by Koko Ed
[B]The Blue Cross Arena would be perfect.
[B]
RIT's in the process of building a rather large field house and there's interest in hosting it there. There isn't really much more to say than that though.

Matt

[T967]

Living in Iowa the midwest does kinda follow that trend. The lack of First teams is how the education systems are. Very step by step get it right the first time approach. (not bad at all, just slower.) So when we try and spread the message and get new teams started MANY teachers and principles are sceptical. Our team took like 4 years of convincing to start. As for compitition it may look laid back but it is fierce. ALOT of rookies teams are popping up in the midwest ex. Kansas, N. and S. Dakota, and Missouri. If anyone has been to the st. louis or midwest regionals, it isn't a cake walk for the vet teams at all.

Any who, I like this thread!:D

[Dave_222]

I know for my self and alot of people on my team the robot and the competition are the things that mean the least about first. Learning is #1 having fun is #2 meeting new people is #3 and wining comes in dead last. I know a few more mid-Atlantic east coast teams this applys too.

[Rich Kressly]

That which we don't know, often makes us uncomfortable and sometimes leads to this regional separation that is somewhat arbitrary and too "wide-brush" as Koko Ed puts it. I do believe that there are many very competitive teams in the east. However, in the past three years, we have attended regionals in New England, Philadelphia, New Jersey, and Annapolis and are somewhat torn as to where to go this coming year because all of these eastern experiences have been great.

All have been very competitive and emotions sometimes run very high because of the time and energy invested by the teams. However, it's been my experience, especially in NJ and Philadelphia, that it's like one big family in the end. The "compete like crazy" part Woodie Flowers always talks about has only made all teams better as we constantly strive to raise our level to match our fellow gracious competitors.

Some of our best friends and the teams we learn from the most are those who defeated us in one way or another over the years, but have also inspired us and helped us to grow. 25 is a prime example of that. So are teams from all over the east, northeast, the south, and around the country.

I expect my friends to challenge me to become better in every way possible . Friends help friends grow. If I show up at a competition ill-prepared to meet a challenge, I can expect to be beaten soundly, but within the rules. The great part about FIRST is that I can also expect those who have beaten me soundly to help and encourage me for the future. So, being highly competitive and very nurturing/giving are not necessarily mutually exclusive events.

Let's be careful not to separate a united effort. Let's celebrate the differences in a positive light, learn from our misgivings, and grow.

[Pin Man]

I agree with aaron... I don't like how we have become so competitive and agressive... But I think that the one's that have the big impact on the kids to think like this is the teachers/mentors... I wonder if there is anything I can do to change this a little...

Also I'd like to say that Rich did put a great post...