Anyone using other tools?

[djcapelis]

We used wings3d in our last animation.

I'm thinking of using blender, wings and cinelerra for this next one... anyone else using apps that aren't 3ds max? If so which ones have you found most helpful?

[Kevin A]

Team 481 used Hash's animation master and Maya to compliment 3dsMax for our animation. It was mainly because our animators are more used to Hash and Maya, not because they are stronger programs.

[...............]

Maya!
The people-in-training used 3DS Max becuase it was the simpler solution. The Video was edited in Premiere 6.5 last year.
This year we plan on using Maya 5 and Shake 3 - Both running on Red Hat 8.

[djcapelis]

Heh, how's the price on Maya these days anyways?

I'm thinking I'll try and do blender still, but I suppose Maya might be worth looking closer at... just don't think it's worth the price for the features, I mean, you should export the rendering to aquasis anyways... so why not use another modeller.

Anyways, would be interested to know what a robotics team can get them down too in terms of price.

[Tyler Olds]

Hey its free if you use the educational version!

[djcapelis]

I disdain crippleware. Moving watermark? Ug... export restrictions? (read: no external renders... can't use aquasis...) limited res? (no matter for this competition I suppose...) Propriatary format?

Give me a break...

Especially when I can get better tools that are Free and free... (using both forms of the word for those of you who differentiate.)

But then again, I did ask about other tools than 3ds, I suppose I shoulda thought about maya. I was kinda aiming to see if anyone else was using an open-source solution.

[Salik Syed]

hmm.... deep paint 3d... Adobe premier... PhotoShop, Combustion

I can't think why u'd want to use wings or blender they are both fairly lowend applications altho if u are a master at them and not max then my props 2 u!
Maya: it's not that much better than 3ds max ... at least not for the level of the animations made here (at FIRST) many people probably don't use Mayas higher end features.

What does SHAKE do???

[djcapelis]

Originally posted by Salik Syed
hmm.... deep paint 3d... Adobe premier... PhotoShop, Combustion

I can't think why u'd want to use wings or blender they are both fairly lowend applications altho if u are a master at them and not max then my props 2 u!
Maya: it's not that much better than 3ds max ... at least not for the level of the animations made here (at FIRST) many people probably don't use Mayas higher end features.

What does SHAKE do???


Bull! Wings and blender are quite nice! They are not lowend! Max is horrid, and for that matter, photoshop isn't great either! I'd never pay for it!

As for saying Maya isn't better then 3DS max, you've got something else coming toward you if you think that...

Please, educate yourself about the utilities before you judge them... have you even ever used them before?

[Sachiel7]

I've been using anim8or, you can get it free from Anim8or.com.
It doesn't entirely measure up to the big wigs out there, but if you get used to it, and it extremely easy to use, you can get some pretty realistic results. I use it for 90% of my modeling. You can output your robot models from inventor to a 3ds file, and open it in anim8or. Just add some good-quality textures, environment mapping, and ray-trace settings, and you'll get good results.

[Salik Syed]

okay okay... i've never used Wings3d b4 but i have used blender although it was a few years ago i wasn't impressed... maybe it has improved... as for me saying 3dsmax IS BETTER than MAYA ... didn't say that i said for our purposes there isn't that much of difference between the two... infact i said it isn't THAT much better... i.e it is still better but not by that much...... come on do you guys really program your own effects... shaders etc.... i'm pretty sure not but hey maybe you do ...

[Salik Syed]

oh and another thing about maya : If you get 3dsmax w/ the kit is it really worth 600$ to buy Maya???? or does some one at your school know how to use Maya or something...

[djcapelis]

Almost all the good animators on our team use Wings3d for modelling... it's worth trying, it's perfect for it's nitch. If you've used nendo it's similar.

As for blender, don't judge it on what you found a few years ago. It leaps forward dramatically with every revision.

I believe it's the only tool which can safely say that it has a built in sound and video editors.

Premire? I don't need it... it's just all right there with everything else in blender. That's one of the (many) great advantages to it.

[...............]

Hrm.
i find maya MUCH more intuitive and many more features, but its not so much the program as the person.
As for shake http://www.apple.com/shake/ it is one of the best video editing/compositing solutions out there, (I can not think of any better...) unless you have an inferno,flame,flint lab available .;)

[djcapelis]

Or you go and download cinelerra which is another professional video editing environment.

Yes, it's open-source.

Here's the requirements to use it if you think it's one of those small piddly programs that isn't made for much:


RECOMMENDED FRONT END SYSTEM

Now Cinelerra is by no means a lightweight program. You'll need something slightly less sexy than a handheld organizer to run it most effectively.

Dual 2Ghz Athlon.
1GB RAM.
200 GB storage for movie files.
Gigabit ethernet

RECOMMENDED RENDERFARM NODE:

Single 2.4Ghz Athlon.
512MB RAM.
No storage.
100MB ethernet with boot ROM


As you can see, it doesn't bother mentioning something that isn't a renderfarm for the requirements... however, if you aren't taking full advantage of what it can do and are doing a low res low quality project. (Like this... as in the world of video editing this is pretty light stuff) Then you can just use it as normal.

Unfortunatly, the UI isn't exactly the most intutive thing I've ever used, but still... worth looking into. Sure beats Shake on price.

[...............]

:D - yeah free beats anything.
btw- just because it requires alot of cpu power doesnt mean it beats the rest:
Shake 3 Linux

* 550MHz Pentium III, Pentium 4, or AMD Athlon processor
* Red Hat Linux 7.2
* 256MB of RAM or more
* 1GB of available disk space for caching and temporary files
* Workstation-class graphics card, such as NVIDIA Quadro2 or Quadro4, ATI Fire GL 8700 or 8800, ATI Fire GL2, or ATI Fire GL4
* Display with 1280-by-1024-pixel resolution and 24-bit color
* Three-button mouse

I just can not stand cinelerra's awful UI its just like Premiere/AFX.

[djcapelis]

No usually a lot of CPU power required is a bad sign... but the point it is the software isn't being built for Joe Bob, it targets studios. And it's nice to see what they use.

As for the UI, compared to Cinelerra's Premire's is quite pretty. Lol. But it's still good quality at what it does if you need high-end. If you don't then there's really no need for it and it's possible that you can get away with the built in video editor. (If your tool has one rather...)

[...............]

eh- if cinelerra had the same skin as premiere they would look pretty similar. btw- do you know where to find some cinelerra skins? It is supposed to be skinable..

[djcapelis]

It is, but I think no one's deved one up for it yet...

[stevek]

OK, SOOOOO.... Is my team the only one that uses 3DStudio Max (like it states in the rules)

I'm not against using other stuff, but you guys are talking about using them in the competition. Not sure thats what Autodesk requires.

As far as editing, I want you guys to check out AVID FreeDV or somthing like that. I dont know the limits of it, but its a scaled down version of Express DV. Almost every post production facility has AVID systems. Corporations, TV Networks (Like NBC) have tons of them. If you get an introduction to the software, then there are more opportunities out there for you.

MAYA is the best 3D software out there. If you dont know that then you need to look at the highend pros at places like pixar. But to keep the playing field even for the competition, you need to use 3D Studio. If you have a problem with that, then go knock on Alias's Door and get them to donate MAYA and provide all the resources and dedication the Autodesk provides. Then we can all use it. Before anyone goes and dis's Autodesk, they are commited to making this a great experience for you. There are huge logistics that are involved and they arte trying to make it all work.

In the professional work I use Lightwave, because based on Budget and time, and the fact that I started using it 10yrs ago, its the best product for my clients needs. When they need higher end stuff I'll use Maya.

BTW: Things are free for a reason, its not becuse they are better, there is no way these free products have the features that the other software has that cost several thousand dollars. Its not because it cost more that makes me say that, its because the compaies can hire the best programmers to to the work. I dont know about you, but I couldnt afford to spend all my time and energy developing a product that wasnt going to support my family. So these products dont have nearly the same resources dedicated to them.

Products dont stay in this industry if they are over priced. You may think that a full version of MAYA is overpriced, but its based on the tools it has and the power it has. If it were the same or worse as a free software package or one that is 1/2 the price, how long do you think they'd stay in business? NOT LONG.

Try to use the real deal if you have any desire to work in the field. The experience will get you far.

[...............]

woah!
i use maya for most if not all of my cg work- but "best"- definatly not!
it all depends on what you are doing.
research xsi and houdini before you throw the word "best" around

[djcapelis]

Originally posted by stevek


MAYA is the best 3D software out there. If you dont know that then you need to look at the highend pros at places like pixar.

Sure, for now... Pixar and others use many of their own tools as well, they hardly work just in Maya... it's not nearly advanced enough to support that.

BTW: Things are free for a reason, its not becuse they are better, there is no way these free products have the features that the other software has that cost several thousand dollars. Its not because it cost more that makes me say that, its because the compaies can hire the best programmers to to the work. I dont know about you, but I couldnt afford to spend all my time and energy developing a product that wasnt going to support my family. So these products dont have nearly the same resources dedicated to them.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. First of all... the blender community raised in excess of $100,000 for the release of the sourcecode and the set up of the infrastructure for blender. Second, Apache, Linux and the numerous other products which absolutely rip products which do cost money an new place to excrete in terms of quality and performance futher prove that software which doesn't cost money can and usually ends up being, better than it's competition.

Next time do some research before bashing products which cost less.

Products dont stay in this industry if they are over priced. You may think that a full version of MAYA is overpriced, but its based on the tools it has and the power it has. If it were the same or worse as a free software package or one that is 1/2 the price, how long do you think they'd stay in business? NOT LONG.

If your point was true, Microsoft would have long faded into oblivion. The fact is, overpriced products can usually survive longer than they should for very stupid reasons. Now don't get me wrong, with the current development, Maya definately has it's market. But Blender is nearly on par with 3DS, it will soon exceed it and the next thing to go after will be Lightwave and Maya. It will likely eventually exceed them in functionality as well.

GIMP is a great example of free software that goes from the ground to competing with the de facto standard and, for some people's uses, definately beat it. Linux is another thing that went from mere competition with Minix to one of the most prevalant server Operating Systems in the world.

[stevek]

I DID SAY IN THIS INDUSTRY. Corect me if I'm wrong AGAIN! but this forum is for 3D Animation!!! So this industry is not the OS industry, its 3D Software.

I'm not to familiar with Houdini, but I do know that some of the Big Guys are using it. (Like Digital Domain). The thing to look at is what are You doing with it! I stated before that I use Lightwave in the professional environment. So do places like Digital Domain and and ILM. But they still use MAYA for more complex stuff than Lightwave and 3DS is Capable of. And Correct me if I'm wrong, AGAIN! but Houdini is not Free Either. And no one mentioned that program when they were trying to say that Maya was worthless and Free is Better. You have to weigh the functions and budget of the work your doing before you can decide on what package is best for you. I know all the high end facilities use proprietary stuff, thats why I like Lightwave so much. Its one of the best complete packages out there. YES I SAID THE WORD BEST (or one of the best) I like the rendering engine and the ease of use. Alot of the others you need advanced degrees to make the thing work. Thats why there are rocket scientists and nuclear physicists working on some of the staffs of the high end production places.

And before you bash microsoft, keep in mind that there is a cause and effect for everything. If they didn't do what they did, computers may not be as prevalent today. And your wrist watch could have been the most powerful computer you own. Some narrow minded folks may not like that comment, but look at the time line of when computers took off and when microsoft was developing for them. MAC was even out way back then and they haven't developed as much impact on society as MS has. This impact has opened the door for things like linix to develop. Frankly all my stuff works fine. The only time I have trouble with Windows is when someone with no knowledge of computers messes around or doesn't do proper maintenance. I'm not against UNIX or Linux or what have you... but Until there is enough software support- for the work I do- I'm not taking a gamble with my livelihood. That might not mean anything to a High school student, but just Wait 10-15 years. By then things will be different, but you'll have other issues that you'll have to think about and weigh against your families well being.

[...............]

but Until there is enough software support Red Hat AND SuSe both have professional support and a large user base...
they were trying to say that Maya was worthless and Free is Better
I dont think anyone said that maya was worthless... I believe that they were commenting on powerful alternatives to high-end software...
And your wrist watch could have been the most powerful computer you own.
wait, what did m$ have to do w/ japanese microprocessors?

[djcapelis]

Microsoft has never pushed innovation.

I was simply making the point that you had absolutely no idea what you were talking about when you said basically that free software was worthless.

I think that in many different arenas free software has shown that it can be quite successful. Even, as the GIMP example is shown free software can gain success in the Graphics Industry. Which, as you can see, is closely related to these forums.


I'm not against UNIX or Linux or what have you... but Until there is enough software support- for the work I do- I'm not taking a gamble with my livelihood. That might not mean anything to a High school student, but just Wait 10-15 years. By then things will be different, but you'll have other issues that you'll have to think about and weigh against your families well being.


Before you ever say something like this, seeing as you like to look at what the professionals use... It's only fair that you know that they would never use Windows for their rendering. One of the limitations of Maya's Personal Edition is they won't release a version for *nix because they know that a *nix version is actually useful for work. So please tone down your it-is-not-good-enough for me attitude.

[stevek]

My statement never said its not good enough for me. I think you proved my point. The companies like maya don't release their AFORDABLE versions for Unix- which means the support of AFORDABLE INDUSTRY STANDARD software is not there. I said I have nothing agains UNIX. Even though you quoted my entire statement your responce takes coments out of context. So go back and read all the posts in this thread. Then make more complete arguments. From what I can see, most of you are students, or you selected the wrong Title for yourself. If thats the case, is it too much to assume that you only read about the industry and you are not a working professional. I do work for major corprations, TV Networks and large production compaines. I have been in the industry for 10yrs. I see whats being used first hand. The stuff you talk about is being used for some feature films and national TV commercial work. These are 6, 7, and 8 figure budgets (thats 100k and up incase you dont know the financial terms) You will find that only a select number of production companies deal with this level of work. So if you read all my posts you will see that I talk about the type of work and budgets that you work for will determine the tools that make sence. With this in mind. I feel that there is not ENOUGH software to produce a FULL project at the price thats AFORDABLE based on the BUDGETS I work in. I also feel that there is not enough FREE stuff out there to do the trick either. That's not to say that there is not a program here or there that is good. Its definately not cost effective to have different computers and O/S's running just to run one or two pieces of software here and one or two pieces of software there. Unless you have some of these endless budgets to afford the systems and all the upgrades for multiple platforms of the same software.

I'm not even going to adress the Microsoft issues here- Call me when you have a better understanding of business and economics. And the understanding only comes from real world experience and study as a business owner- not as an employee and not from a High School teacher or Colege professor. Which expliains why of all the Multi-millionairs I know most don't have a college degree. Most of the billionairs Iv'e met and or read about- Are not colege graduates. I say to help you understand that business is not learned in school and untill you understand business you wont understand what I am talking about in regards to microsoft. How the heck would the microprocessor companies have enough capital to further develop their technology if there weren't any computers that were user friendly and floodiung the market? Its a simbiotic relation ship.

[djcapelis]

*yawn* I'm not impressed, so please cut the patronizing attitude. I have plenty of ground to stand on and just because you've worked in the industry for 10 yrs doesn't mean you know your $@#$@#$@# from a hole in the ground. Not that you don't... but it in itself doesn't mean much. There are plenty of clueless people in every industry. Again, I'm not saying you're one of them, just that I don't know you're not.

I yes, I think we can all figure out what an 8 figure budget is. (We can count you know... and I'm sure we've all heard those terms before. *rolls eyes*) Kinda light for the industry actually... I was more refferring to what higher 8 and 9 figure projects do. They render on Linux.

And for your information, seeing as you have a hard time with what you first posted... this is the argument I've been consistently dispelling:

there is no way these free products have the features that the other software has that cost several thousand dollars. Its not because it cost more that makes me say that, its because the compaies can hire the best programmers to to the work. I dont know about you, but I couldnt afford to spend all my time and energy developing a product that wasnt going to support my family. So these products dont have nearly the same resources dedicated to them.

So yes, you did bash all free software. And I'm simply pointing out that it was extremely stupid to ever say that, as it's false and you should know better. The fact that you don't make me wonder in what parts of the industry you have worked in... because most of the good studios do render on an operating system which, according to your arguments, doesn't have any good programmers programming it. Many also use other open-source software in their work. Disney (who might have just a little bit of knowledge in the field) has been committing programmers on the WINE project to help the developers in their goal to create an entire re-implementation of the win32 API under linux to run apps such as photoshop. This just proves how much many studios with a lot of cash really do like free software, they are willing to hire programmers to aid in the continuation of it's development. And everyone benefits. Nice little system eh? Not something you should say only creates inferior products. This is the crux of my argument.

[...............]

stevek:
read up before you start arguing. a small place in an industry doesnt give you a perfect view.
3dbuzz.com (a 3d school)
3dWorld Magazine / Computer Arts (Major UK 3d magazine)
Even your god microsoft buys other companies computers to use and copy off.
Major Video cards makers have available certified linux drivers...
just because you've never seen linux in action and like to sit in the same old rut doesnt mean other people have to also.
upgrades for multiple platforms of the same software.
thats pretty stupid to buy the same software for multiple o/s's.. buy it for the one to conquer the rest.
Most of the billionairs Iv'e met and or read about- Are not colege graduates.
but you know what? the people they hire are.

[stevek]

Originally posted by ...............
stevek:
read up before you start arguing. ...

You have me wrong, djcapelis was confrontational with the first couple responses. So I didn't Start any argument. I was wondering why he started the thread if he doesn't want to hear the answers that people are giving.

djcapelis, you are still taking things out of context. When I talked about Free software- I was talking about Free software in THIS INDUSTRY. Not the O/S Market. It seems you keep proving my point. You talk about Disney working on rewriting win32 to allow Photoshop and other programs to run on Linux- Well these are the breakthroughs that need to be made (Not in progress) before I can safely switch over. I said several; times- it's not Linux or Unix I have a problem with. Its if I ran a Linux box I could only run a few programs on it for my needs. In the working envirenment I need all or most of my computeres to be similar so that I can jump in anywhere and get my work done and not have to render on one and be stuck ton being able to work on another because I dont have the software. I also need to have several people working on the same project at once and compatiblity/ productivity limitations can be a major hastle.

When I talk about REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE, it's not to put you down (though the thought crossed my mind- HA HA- hope you can take a joke and not take that personal too!) I Talk about real world experience because there are situations that are beyond your (and my) control. Like being COMPATIBLE with other Production Companies and Corporate Client's equipment, software, and what have you. Believe it or not, I have spent thousands of extra money (beyond what I needed to for the task) just to get compatible stuff. When you only work on your stuff- these things aren't an issue and the thought probably never entered your mind (ant thats not a put down)

As far as this quote from me:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
upgrades for multiple platforms of the same software.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------And this response:

thats pretty stupid to buy the same software for multiple o/s's.. buy it for the one to conquer the rest.

Are you telling me that you can rewrite the code of Photoshop and Aftereffects all by yourself (............)

Sorry to inform you- I can't. Ive been in situations where we ran DEC Alpha's and Intel Processors Stuff and had to purchase multiple copies of software because they don't run the same way. I'm sure unix and Windows require separate versions too. So Why would you call me stupid. If you could rewrite the code yourself, send me a copy. I'd love to use it.


As far as my background. I'll start by saying you haven't proven anything to me either. I don't know you from a Hole in the wall. So where in the same vote. I also agree there are plenty of people out there that do a better job of occupying space than contributing to the industry. I told you the kind of work I do. Besides 3D and 2D Graphics and Effects, I also Design and Program Multimedia CD & Web Stuff as well as DVD's. I have successfully been self employed since getting out of college. Try that as a hack. I know plenty of better people than me, but very few of them compete in the same market as me (at least in my area). I have clients all over the US and in Europe. So I have some Idea what I'm talking about. Besides being a graphic artist, I consult several clients on hardware and software solutions for their businesses. (And no matter how you or I feel, you have to consider the end user- many of them could never deal with Linux, they have enough trouble turing the computer on and checking email.)

I'd rather be the Billionaire than work for the billionaire!

djcapelis, I don't see this conversation going any where. I followed my own advise and reread the thread. You've been disagreeing with almost every post. So I don't think your really open minded to What others are using (as you asked) Maybe you'd say the same about me- hey its your right! I will read your responses (out of courtesy) but unless you offer something new here- I'm done.



EXCEPT FOR ONE THING-
No one has touched the topic I brought forth- I thought we were supposed to use 3DS for all of the 3D in the competition. All the posts in the beginning sounded like you guys use other stuff. Everyone seemed to avoid that part of my posts. So whats up with that?

[djcapelis]

I see nothing in the competition rules to prevent the use of other tools.

You still don't seem to be getting what part of the argument I'm spefically trying to put to rest. The idea that free software does not have enough revenue to hire good programmers and all good programmers will flock to the nonfree products, which was essentially your entire argument in your small rant against free software and why you view it as useless in this industry.

I've simply been trying to get you to see that this is not the case, a fact which you've been avoiding... which unfortunately has increased my annoyance. My apologies on that.

As to my goals for this thread, your right, and as I stated in my third post to the topic (it was actually already about maya) I was more aiming to see if anyone else was planning on using open-source or Free tools for their animation. So yes, the thread may be slightly mistitled. As you see there though, other than a slight rant against the horrendous crippling done on the free student version, I was fairly open to hear of about how maya was being used as well. (I even went so far as too check the prices on Maya again to see if it was vaugely worth it compared to just hunting out the appropriate python scripts.) Besides, no features seem to be anything I need that I can't get...

The funny part is even the guy that previously discussed maya on this thread seems to have been against you these last few posts... it seems I'm not the only one who felt that you had an attitude and was making some allegations that were not true.

So yes, if your fine with it, I'm happy to leave this flamewar be and spend time calling corporations to ensure our team has the funds needed to travel this year instead. :)

Oh, and photoshop has run fine on linux for some time now... yes, the windows version.

[stevek]

The rules from 2003 (http://www2.usfirst.org/2003comp/Awards_03.pdf) Go to page 17 section 6.1; This is ablout the sofware to use! Dont get me wrong. I would love to use other stuff too. I could teach lightwave to the student much faster than 3DS. But it's only fair to keep the playing field level.


I have an Idea:
Why don't you open an thread on putting together a Linux box. complete with where to download and how to install (if there are special tips or instructions on any of it) and a list of good open-source software. And a list of other software that works on it as is. Then others can test it out and you'd be contibuting to the education of anyone that wnat to read it and follow your instructions.

I'll look at any 3D softare that you say is equal or beter than Maya. But I dont know where to get it. What do you sugest. I'd love to find FREE stuff thats that powerful. That will shut me up and will prove your point... Free stuff thats as powerful and feature packed as Maya.

BTW: Things in Maya that make it BEST in my opinion are the 3D Paint Features- both painting objects and painting ON objects, Soft Body dynamics, and detail you have for controling bone constraints (IE gradients maps) I have seen limited attempts to match these features but have not seen anything to compair. What do you guys know of that beats these and adds to the mix. I've never seen software that does it, which is why I hold it in such high esteem. (I dont even use Maya because I don't have budgets or projects to justify the cost when I already own Lightwave)

As far a crippleware: companies do this to get you to use and learn the software, but to get a working version for free... no way!!! Maya Personal Learning Addition (is not an "Educational version" as far as discounted student/school versions go) it is a free download to get you to learn and decide if you want to take the plung. You could probably learn enough to get a job if you practice enough with it. Discreet has a product for Drafting called REVIT. Their crippleware doesnt allow you to save so you can only work in one sitting and then have to start over. Very annoying. I wrote them to ask them to change the features. I'm not against crippleware (as a business owner) but as a user, I'm not going to have the time to explore all the features in one sitting. then I need to get back to the same spot in the project just to continue my exploration. As I thing I mentioned above, try the FREEDV from AVID. Its on the home page I think. Its a scaled down free download of their edit software. I have the real thing so I havent used this version.


Bye for now, I'll be looking for a new thread on a Linux graphics workstation from you. Then you can put all your knowledge on the subject to use.

LAter

[djcapelis]

Seems like they are offering 3ds max... doesn't really seem to say that they are excluding the use of other software... sounds like we should probably e-mail for a rules clarification.

Keeping the playing field even has nothing to do with it... everyone can use the tools I'm using just as easy as I can... they're free after all... as for a bunch of links of free software, I already put that up on another thread. about 3ds max licensing I believe...

Anyone have the rules clarification information to ask FIRST a question on hand?

[Clark Gilbert]

6.1 Award Overview
All FIRST teams are invited to create a submission for the Autodesk Visualization Award (AVA)
using 3ds max™. In 2003, Autodesk is pleased to announce that the AVA will be judged at both
the Regional and Championship levels. To accomplish this, Autodesk has grouped the FIRST
Robotics Competition Regionals into five “Autodesk Award Conference” areas that are listed
below. All award-winning AVA’s at the regional level will advance to compete at the
Championship

To me the terms "using 3ds max" means using it as the modeling software, why would you want to use two different programs?

It might be me, but it seems kind of rude to use other software (rather than Autodesk stuff) to win an Autodesk award...meh what do i know....

[stevek]

Thats exactly what I'm saying. (But not just modeling- Modeling, animation, rendering // That is what the software does isn't it?)

That's why its in the rules.

They want to see what you can do with their stuff. When I was new in the business I worked on a Stephen King Book of the Month Club Commercial that won a WAVEY award. The award was for best use of LIGHTWAVE in a commercial. These companies do this stuff all the time to see what people can do with their stuff (Which surprised me with last years winner- but i digress). This competition is the AUTODESK VISUALIZATION AWARD. Some could take that as them being the sponsor of the award- which they are- but this is considered a seperate competition from the FIRST aspect of it. The Engineering awards like DELPHI Driving Tomorrows Technology is a FIRST award sponsored by DELPHI. With the AVA, Autodesk handles the judging on its own (or as the rules allow- with students and the like)

As far as keeping the field even- not many teams have extra money to go buy software on top of their other expenses. The fact that the software is free in the kit eliminates the need. I dont know about you but it seemed to be the concensus that MAYA wasn't free. Except the personal training addition- which is crippleware! So I dont know where "It's all free" came from.

[djcapelis]

I wasn't talking about using Maya...

The software I plan to use is all free and can be included in the kit.

Perfectly level and even playing field. I'll have to contact autodesk to see whether they really require 3DS max use in their award. *shrug* Doesn't really seem rude to me, I'm just using software I work better with. It certainly doesn't hurt them any... Perhaps we'll develop another animation outside of the award, just because we want to. Or, I'll establish a Blender award and donate the software and handle the judging for them! What a nice guy I am... lol. ;)

[stevek]

Anything is worth a try!

[av11d]

A couple points...

Way back someone mentioned Shake for video editing. Shake is in no way a video editing tool. I'm not sure how you would even be able to edit video with shake. It's strictly a digital color grading, compositing, and painting tool. And it's $@#$@#$@#$@# good at that. I've read the Shake certification book and am profficient at it; I prefer it over combustion any day. It lacks particle effects, but hopefully we'll see it included in the next version. Oh, and to the person who mentioned running shake on linux... why? It costs twice as much as the mac version. Usually, you only run render-only copies of shake on linux farms.

As for the open-source vs. commercial debate. Currently, I find commercial software much more polished and powerful than the open-source counterparts such as Blender. I think as the projects grow, we'll start seeing better releases. For now, however, commercial products are better. Maya is still the king of 3D in the professional industry, and has yet to be dethroned. However, lightwave and 3ds max are starting to make their impact in the industry more and more. All three are great programs and have their advantages. While on the open-source topic, keep your eye on Jashaka ( sf.net/jashaka ). It's shake-type compositing tool that has some very talented developers working on it.

Personally, I have no objection if you use something besides 3ds max in the competition. We used some 3rd party plugins for 3ds max, but we never used another standalone 3d app.

[Matt Hallock]

It's not really a problem that people use programs other than 3DSMAX. Most animators pick one program and become very skilled in it, some are lucky enough to have the time to learn Maya and 3DSMAX. The problem is a lot of modelling programs are far different from 3DSMAX and the same logic can't be applied to two programs. As for the animation, if you started to tell people that they could only use 3DSMAX to make their animation, then how would I make my textures? I'm good with procedurals, but I have to make my masking and bump maps in photoshop or some other program of the likes. You just can't do it any other way. Video editing can be done minimally in 3DSMAX, and honestly if you set up the scene the way you intended it to be you should only need to do color correction. Most effects could be done with particle systems.

I personally stick with Premiere, 3DSMAX 5 or 6, Photoshop 6, and I use default rendering with my own lighting. (It consists of about 25 omni light instances into sphere. Allows for great daylight and color control.)

[stevek]

The last few post sounded as if it is up to us to decide whaty we want to use. I am talking about the Rules of the Competition, not my opinion (as I've stated in the past I'm more proficient at Lightwave).

There are reasons to limit the tools- 1) this competition is sponsored by Autodesk- Maker of MAX) 2) the rules State- 3D Animation using 3D Studio Max. 3) Everyone is given the software each year. 4) Everyone is on the Same Playing Field - Different software will be better or worse at different things, makes it more dificult to Judge- One task may require more talent in Max and is simple to do in Maya.

It is obvious that you cant do Photoshop stuff in Max. If you read the rules were talking about doing 3D Animation using 3D Studio Max- Photoshop is not 3D Animation so it's not conflicting with a rule. Photoshop is not a 3D Renderer so it is not effecting the outcome of the final image. It is used to Prep the images used in the 3DS Max scene as Background Images or Texture Maps. The Post Program in Max can combine scenes and composite and such, however, if you edit the final footage in an editor, you are not effecting the 3D aspect of the project so it is not conflicting with the rules.

I dont feel we have a choice here. And it used to bother me, until I realized that this is a seperate competition sponsored by Autodesk, not a FIRST competition sponsored by Autodesk. with the difference they can write the rules any way theu want.

[Salik Syed]

we can use 3rd party renderers i just think 3/4 all work should be done in 3dsmax

[Matt Hallock]

I wasn't really aware that people used anything other than 3DSMAX in these competitions, since it was sponsored by Discreet. I feel that it is all right to use Maya or Blender or whatever you want. If you outlaw the third party programs then you also outlaw the third party plugins.

The rules are kind of hazy, especially on things like Photoshop. Photoshop or Paint Shop Pro are components to making the animation. The rules stipulate making the animation with 3DS MAX, God only knows if that means all aspects of it.

[djcapelis]

As for your 3 and 4 questions stevek...

3) Everyone can get blender too... just go to blender.org... everyone can also get wings3d, which many use...

4) Everyone is on a level playing field, some decide to use all the resources available to all teams, some don't.

[Matt Hallock]

Originally posted by djcapelis
As for your 3 and 4 questions stevek...

3) Everyone can get blender too... just go to blender.org... everyone can also get wings3d, which many use...

4) Everyone is on a level playing field, some decide to use all the resources available to all teams, some don't.

Maya is not available to all teams, it certainly isn't to mine, not that I'd use it anyhow.

[djcapelis]

Hey, take away all the pripriotary crap if you want, but leave me my blender and the rest of our animation team our precious wings3d.

They don't make the playing field uneven, I have no objections to getting rid of the things that do. But clearly those objections cannot be applied to freely downloadable software.

[Matt Hallock]

Oh, I thought you were speaking of Maya, sorry.