**IMPORTANT FIRST EMAIL BLAST**/Game Tip and 2004 Competition Manual Information!!

[Travis Hoffman]

Ryan Curry gets a cookie for picking both of these diamonds out of Dave's posts.

Speculate forth, o' anxious children of FIRST!

************************************************** ****

Greetings Teams:

Four days and counting!

First, we want to give the official hint to teams concerning this year's game, so here it is:

"Vmax = 10 ft/sec

Yes, there are two paths you can go by
But in the long run
There's still time to change the road you're on."

This should be enough to get you all started!

Secondly, we have some important news for participants regarding the 2004 Robotics Competition Manual.

As a first step in moving to an online manual system for 2005, the 2004 manual will only be made available online in the form of '.pdf' files; which means there will not be a printed manual or CD in this year's Kit of Parts.

To accommodate timely distribution of the manual, here is our plan:

Encrypted copies of the first eight sections of the manual will be posted on the FIRST website at 5:00pm EST on Thursday, January 8th. Instructions for handling these files appear at the bottom of this message.

Anyone may download these files starting at that time. The decryption password, which will allow you to open these files, will be announced at Kickoff.

Teams are encouraged to download these encrypted versions ahead of time to help alleviate downloading delays on the 10th. The non-encrypted versions will be posted at noon on Saturday January 10th. There is no difference in the content of the encrypted and
non-encrypted versions.

Individuals traveling to a Kickoff site that wish to have a manual to read for their ride home are encouraged to bring a portable computer with these files saved on the hard-drive.

In order to be sure that you have the capability to decrypt the files at the appropriate time, a test file is currently posted on the FIRST website -- see the instructions below.

(Note that if you wish to get yourself a binder and/or tabs, there are a total of twelve sections to this years manual)

FYI, the method used to encrypt these files is secure. It is called 128-bit RC4 encoding, and is a current standard considered by the US Government as completely secure for short (weeks) periods of time.

================================================== ==========

INSTRUCTIONS FOR DOWNLOADING (and TESTING) ENCRYPTED MANUAL:

================================================== ==========

-- Users may download these files beginning at 5:00pm on January 8th. The files will not be readable until the decryption password is released at kickoff on Saturday.

-- Adobe Acrobat Reader Version 5 or 6 will be required to decrypt these files. If you do not have it, you may download it for free at http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html (http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html)

-- Kickoff attendees who want a manual to read on the way home are encouraged to bring a computer with these 8 files and Acrobat Reader installed.

-- To ensure that you have everything necessary to decrypt these files, a test file is currently available at http://www2.usfirst.org/2004/comp/2004DecryptTest.pdf (http://www2.usfirst.org/2004/comp/2004DecryptTest.pdf)

You may download this file now and decrypt it with the following case-sensitive password (without the quotes): "2004DecryptTest" Acrobat will prompt you for the password when you try to open the file.

If you get to see the message "Congratulations! You have successfully decrypted the test file", then you have successfully decrypted the file and have everything you need for Saturday.

-- Non-encrypted copies of each section of the manual will be posted on the FIRST website at noon on Saturday January 10th.

Let the game begin!

[Mark Garver]

Well with a clue like that my guess is that there are stairs. The reason being isn't that clue from an old song? Maybe Led Zeppelin - Stairway to heven

Well i guess it is just an educated guess... Your thoughts?

[Rich Wong]

Greetings Teams:

Four days and counting!

First, we want to give the official hint to teams concerning this year's game, so here it is:

"Vmax = 10 ft/sec

Yes, there are two paths you can go by
But in the long run
There's still time to change the road you're on."

This should be enough to get you all started!

Secondly, we have some important news for participants regarding the 2004 Robotics Competition Manual.

As a first step in moving to an online manual system for 2005, the 2004 manual will only be made available online in the form of '.pdf' files; which means there will not be a printed manual or CD in this year's Kit of Parts.

To accommodate timely distribution of the manual, here is our plan:

Encrypted copies of the first eight sections of the manual will be posted on the FIRST website at 5:00pm EST on Thursday, January 8th. Instructions for handling these files appear at the bottom of this message.

Anyone may download these files starting at that time. The decryption password, which will allow you to open these files, will be announced at Kickoff.

Teams are encouraged to download these encrypted versions ahead of time to help alleviate downloading delays on the 10th. The non-encrypted versions will be posted at noon on Saturday January 10th. There is no difference in the content of the encrypted and
non-encrypted versions.

Individuals traveling to a Kickoff site that wish to have a manual to read for their ride home are encouraged to bring a portable computer with these files saved on the hard-drive.

In order to be sure that you have the capability to decrypt the files at the appropriate time, a test file is currently posted on the FIRST website -- see the instructions below.

(Note that if you wish to get yourself a binder and/or tabs, there are a total of twelve sections to this years manual)

FYI, the method used to encrypt these files is secure. It is called 128-bit RC4 encoding, and is a current standard considered by the US Government as completely secure for short (weeks) periods of time.

================================================== ==========

INSTRUCTIONS FOR DOWNLOADING (and TESTING) ENCRYPTED MANUAL:

================================================== ==========

-- Users may download these files beginning at 5:00pm on January 8th. The files will not be readable until the decryption password is released at kickoff on Saturday.

-- Adobe Acrobat Reader Version 5 or 6 will be required to decrypt these files. If you do not have it, you may download it for free at http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html

-- Kickoff attendees who want a manual to read on the way home are encouraged to bring a computer with these 8 files and Acrobat Reader installed.

-- To ensure that you have everything necessary to decrypt these files, a test file is currently available at http://www2.usfirst.org/2004/comp/2004DecryptTest.pdf

You may download this file now and decrypt it with the following case-sensitive password (without the quotes): "2004DecryptTest" Acrobat will prompt you for the password when you try to open the file.

If you get to see the message "Congratulations! You have successfully decrypted the test file", then you have successfully decrypted the file and have everything you need for Saturday.

-- Non-encrypted copies of each section of the manual will be posted on the FIRST website at noon on Saturday January 10th.

Let the game begin!

[Mark Garver]

Well with a clue like that my guess is that there are stairs. The reason being isn't that clue from an old song? Maybe Led Zeppelin - Stairway to heven

Well i guess it is just an educated guess... Your thoughts?

[IMDWalrus]

Well with a clue like that my guess is that there are stairs. The reason being isn't that clue from an old song? Maybe Led Zeppelin - Stairway to heven

Well i guess it is just an educated guess... Your thoughts?
How do we know the game won't involve zeppelins? ;)

[greencelery115]

stairs, a way up on both sides (similar to past games..) ? i'm trying to figure out what has two roads...and how it is connected with a long run ...and changing the road...(something spinning? a change of direction? a moveable part of the field?...

something definitely happened to the time.. :yikes:

and with a max velocity? the top speed for what? the robot? the field parts?
*i'm going to look it up and see if there's any poems or something related to this...(what would first people create/ insinuate with this type of clue...)
i'm glad that i'm getting a headache over this. this rox. :cool:

"Vmax = 10 ft/sec

Yes, there are two paths you can go by
But in the long run
There's still time to change the road you're on." :ahh:

[IrisLab]

*Yes there are two paths you can go by
but in the long run
There's still time to change the road you're on
And it makes me wonder.

*lyric by LED ZEPPELIN from Stairway to Heaven

[greencelery115]

yes- got the same result here too :D

wonders what led zeppelin has to do with this...heaven? zeppelins? rock(s)?
rock and roll (i.e. the oil barrels)

still pondering

[greencelery115]

song lyrics...* just for interest (album Iv) *four?

Stairway To Heaven
There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold
And she's buying a stairway to heaven.
When she gets there she knows, if the stores are all closed
With a word she can get what she came for.
Ooh, ooh, and she's buying a stairway to heaven.

There's a sign on the wall but she wants to be sure
'Cause you know sometimes words have two meanings.
In a tree by the brook, there's a songbird who sings,
Sometimes all of our thoughts are misgiven.
Ooh, it makes me wonder,
Ooh, it makes me wonder.

There's a feeling I get when I look to the west,
And my spirit is crying for leaving.
In my thoughts I have seen rings of smoke through the trees,
And the voices of those who standing looking.
Ooh, it makes me wonder,
Ooh, it really makes me wonder.

And it's whispered that soon if we all call the tune
Then the piper will lead us to reason.
And a new day will dawn for those who stand long
And the forests will echo with laughter.

If there's a bustle in your hedgerow, don't be alarmed now,
It's just a spring clean for the May queen.
Yes, there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run
There's still time to change the road you're on. And it makes me wonder.

Your head is humming and it won't go, in case you don't know,
The piper's calling you to join him,
Dear lady, can you hear the wind blow, and did you know
Your stairway lies on the whispering wind.

And as we wind on down the road
Our shadows taller than our soul.
There walks a lady we all know
Who shines white light and wants to show
How everything still turns to gold.
And if you listen very hard
The tune will come to you at last.
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll.

And she's buying a stairway to heaven.

[gsensel]

Both have been discussed here. Because Dave leaked them before the blast was sent out.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23371
My thoughts are similar to what many have said in the other thread but with 3 ways up 2 stairs or ramps and 1 stair or ramp depending on what the 2 are. This will be able to be rotated. Plus balls or something to roll down them will be on the platform above it

[Will Hanashiro]

OH MY GOSH!!!! "stairway to heaven" lyrics!!!!!! STAIRWAY... STAIRS.. there are gonna be stairs in this years game. completely have to redesign our drive train now... somehow first managed to shorten our six weeks once again! last year they shortened it with autonomous, this year stairs! amazing, i'm so excited now!

[Greg Needel]

OH MY GOSH!!!! "stairway to heaven" lyrics!!!!!! STAIRWAY... STAIRS.. there are gonna be stairs in this years game. completely have to redesign our drive train now... somehow first managed to shorten our six weeks once again! last year they shortened it with autonomous, this year stairs! amazing, i'm so excited now!


whoa!!!!!!!! hold your horses nothing is sure for now


but i am not sure if that 128 bit encryption is the best way to go about it...with pdf there are many holes and programs that can get rid of that easly

[Jeff Waegelin]

Well with a clue like that my guess is that there are stairs. The reason being isn't that clue from an old song? Maybe Led Zeppelin - Stairway to heven

Well i guess it is just an educated guess... Your thoughts?

I think it's a great guess. I think that would be a pretty good chance that we have stairs in this game. There will probably be some form of alternate path other than the stairs, too, that will get you to the same place. However... there's always a chance that this is a bit of a red herring, and means something else entirely. Remember ax^2+bx+c? Don't get too hung up on stairs like people did with projectile motion. You never know what devious schemes FIRST has concocted for this year's game.

[IMDWalrus]

OH MY GOSH!!!! "stairway to heaven" lyrics!!!!!! STAIRWAY... STAIRS.. there are gonna be stairs in this years game. completely have to redesign our drive train now... somehow first managed to shorten our six weeks once again! last year they shortened it with autonomous, this year stairs! amazing, i'm so excited now!

For all we know, the line could just be referring to two different paths in the playing field...sure, the line is from "Stairway to Heaven," but that doesn't mean that stairs are guaranteed.

Hold on until Saturday - we'll know then... :)

[Will Hanashiro]

OH MY GOSH!!!! "stairway to heaven" lyrics!!!!!! STAIRWAY... STAIRS.. there are gonna be stairs in this years game. completely have to redesign our drive train now... somehow first managed to shorten our six weeks once again! last year they shortened it with autonomous, this year stairs! amazing, i'm so excited now!

hehehe... sry guys, maybe i jumped to conclusions a bit too early!!!!! its just that i was so excited at the posibility of stairs, it'd be so neat. anyways, i really hope that there are gonna be stairs.
:D :) :D

[Alexander McGee]

Well with a clue like that my guess is that there are stairs. The reason being isn't that clue from an old song? Maybe Led Zeppelin - Stairway to heven

Well i guess it is just an educated guess... Your thoughts?

Mark,

You beat me to it!

Thats the first thing I thought when i read it. Just an old Zeppelin fan i suppose!

Remind me to hit you at kickoff.

PEACE

[Bcahn836]

It's a maze It's a maze.

That's my guess anyway.



Always the kid in the red hat.

TEAM 836

[Caleb Fulton]

It should be an F1-style road course (with a 10 ft/sec speed limit) :)

[Kevin Kolodziej]

No no no...you've got it all wrong! The robots are going to have to PLAY "Stairway to Heaven" on the guitar! That has got to be it!

That, or maybe some part of the field will be really high up so that we take a half hour setting and resetting the field =)

Although...now that I think about it, maybe the robots play a verticle game, hanging from a grid or wall....nah.

I tried!

Kev

[Jessi357]

"Vmax = 10 ft/sec

Yes, there are two paths you can go by
But in the long run
There's still time to change the road you're on."

I was looking at the 10 ft/sec and maybe 10 ft is the diagonal the stairs make. when i thought about it 10 ft/sec seems to fast to be the optimum speed. Also autonomus mode could be lengthened by 10 seconds. Well i dont know those are just my thoughts. What do you think??

[KenWittlief]

Vmax might be the top speed of some new motor/gearbox they are going to give us.

there were 'two paths you can go by' last year - over the ramp or under the bar

I think what they are really trying to tell us is:

"If theres a bustle in your hedgerow
dont be alarmed now
its just a spring clean
for the may Queen!"

BTW - isnt 'Stairway' the song, if you play it backwards, the chorus says 'I live for Satan'

?

[KenWittlief]

Ooooooooh!

It makes me wonder!

[Alexander McGee]

Another thought...

I know about <-this much-> Calculus .

But isn't Vmax a caculus function?

Hmmmm. anyone??

[Aaron Knight]

Ooooooooh!

It makes me wonder!

Bad, bad, bad KenWittlief! :D

Very bad!

[IMDWalrus]

I think what they are really trying to tell us is:

"If theres a bustle in your hedgerow
dont be alarmed now
its just a spring clean
for the may Queen!"
Nice to know it's not just me that's thinking that way. For the past hour or so, I've been wondering...

If there's a bustle in our hedgerow, what does it mean for our robot?

:D

[Steve782]

The 10 ft/second reminded me of the terminal velocity in physics-is that how fast the robots can go because of what FIRST will supply us? Maybe our robots will only be able to go up to 10 ft/second this year.

[byrne159]

Some of our team's mentors hypothesized that the field will have some kind of platform that can be reached via stairs or a ramp. They also think that autonomous mode will either be lengthened and/or put at the end of the matches.

[Mark Garver]

Could Vmax be a clue on how tall the steps are? It would mean that the steps are just over 18 inches each.... :confused:

[Ryan Foley]

The 10 ft/second reminded me of the terminal velocity in physics-is that how fast the robots can go because of what FIRST will supply us? Maybe our robots will only be able to go up to 10 ft/second this year.

Hm, well FIRST would have to impose a speed limit. Technically, if FIRST just gave us slow motors, we could all gear them up and make them much faster.

Although that would be an interesting rule.

Perhaps it is FIRST's way of saying that going to fast this year will be a problem, maybe danger of running into an obstacle or something.

[VinceT]

does anyone happen to have a 128-bit RC4 decrypter? ;)

[sonicimpulse99]

This is probably worthless, but I used a physics formula here.

If an object were in free fall, with an initial velocity of 0, and reached a max speed of 10 ft/sec (before hitting the ground) - I calculated it to mean that the object is 1.56 ft off the ground when it started. Here's what I did:

V1^2 = V0^2 + 2*a*delta y
10^2 = 0 + 2 * 32.15 * Y
Y = 1.56 ft

Again, this is probably worthless. But... this would be the first time there's stairs in a game - nothing says they have to go very high. There could be a ramp going up to a platform and a small staircase also going up to this platform. Maybe this platform is 1.56 ft off the ground? Not that high, but high enough so a normal robot can't just drive right onto it.

Maybe my math is wrong, maybe my guess is wrong. But there's been a lot of wrong guesses, and bad theories over the years, I'm entitled to make one too.

[KenWittlief]

if you fall off a platform your speed is = A*T with A =32'/S and T= time of fall in seconds.

so a 'limit' of 10'/S = 32*T

T= 0.3125 S

the distance you would fall in a given time is

X= 1/2 A * T^2

= 16*0.3125^2

= 1.5625 feet = 18.75 inches

BTW 10'/S = 6.8 mph

tell you what I think

someone is an Evil Knevil fan and there is going to be a ramp that your bot has to jump off to get to the other side = 18.75 inches high

or you will have to go another way, like under the bar last year.

[Madison]

Vmax is also a type of motorcycle.

[KenWittlief]

does anyone happen to have a 128-bit RC4 decrypter? ;)

are there any teams sponsored by NSA? (National Security Agency)

they could bust the encryption in a matter of hours

but then again, they have rooms full of CRAY computers.

[KenWittlief]

I think either Dean or Woodie were dissapointed last year

they expected bots to be hitting the ramp so fast that they got airborne

so this year, its not an option - you HAVE to go off the 18' ramp to get to the other side

or take the chicken path

[Mark Garver]

On the whole idea of busting the code... lets not all forget about gracious professionalism!!!

[Adam Y.]

I know about <-this much-> Calculus .
Well it isn't a calculation. This is easy we are going to be dealing with an object that has a terminal velocity of 10ft/sec.

[IMDWalrus]

On the whole idea of busting the code... lets not all forget about gracious professionalism!!!
Exactly. I'm sure it can be done...but doing so would give your team an unfair advantage.

Come to think of it, FIRST would probably disqualify you for that. That's another issue, though.

At the very least, if anyone manages to crack the code, please don't post the game online. Some of us want to be surprised. :)

[Arefin Bari]

this is probably some crazy thought... but i am all confused right now ... atleast after reading these 37 different posts. what if there are two paths and both are stairs... on the top there is a platform where you have to reach and the game pieces are there which you have to grab to score points. two pathways... if the game is 2 vs 2 that means only 2 bots will be able to go by those two paths... i am going insane... :ahh:

[Aignam]

On the whole idea of busting the code... lets not all forget about gracious professionalism!!!

I'm sure it's all in good humour.

[KenWittlief]

Nice to know it's not just me that's thinking that way. For the past hour or so, I've been wondering...

If there's a bustle in our hedgerow, what does it mean for our robot?

:D

it means if your robot is getting confused and doesnt know what to do, dont worry, your SW is just going through some changes - its a part of growing up :c)

[KenWittlief]

On the whole idea of busting the code... lets not all forget about gracious professionalism!!!


Yeah! if you are smart enough to hack a governemt certified encription algorythm, you BETTER practice gracious professionalism

and share your results with the rest of us :^)

[Cory]

First off, Im going to have to agree with Raul. How many times has FIRST given us an "official game hint" and it's turned out to be nothing like what it seems? It is clear to me that FIRST wants us to focus on stairs, from the Stairway to Heaven reference. I am 150% sure that there is more than one meaning to this statement, perhaps, you can take the autonomous "path", or the human controlled path.

Why would FIRST take the chance that someone would guess the game? I doubt they would release any kind of information to help us guess. Perhaps theyre even covering for Dave :ahh:

Overall, I dont believe these hints for a second, and I am not going to waste my time pondering them. For those that do, have fun with the headache, and have fun when you find on Saturday that your guess was 180* off from the real game. Are you really going to get any insight into the game in the next four days by poring over these statements? Even if there are stairs, we have no idea what theyre to, and people are already talking about changing their drivetrain designs.

Enjoy the next four days,

Cory

[Rob Colatutto]

I wouldn't worry about people decrypting the rule book early. If FIRST was worried any bit I'm sure they wouldn't have gone with this way to hand out the rule book.

What I get from these hints are, there is a stationary rotating goal that is open on top with a curved ramp leading up the side to it so robots can drive up the ramp to put something very heavy into the goal, but there is also another level on top of that you can only reach by lifting the object. So teams who can lift the heavy object high can still score, just not as much. then the Vmax is the speed your robot would reach if it were "knocked" off the curved ramp. :D

[KenWittlief]

why would anyone seriously start building ANY type of drivetrain before this saturday?

I think I have found a video clip that gives some insite into what we are in for this year

look at the ramp in the video -its about 18" high!

http://humor.is/redirect.php?id=4480

[IMDWalrus]

Overall, I dont believe these hints for a second, and I am not going to waste my time pondering them. For those that do, have fun with the headache, and have fun when you find on Saturday that your guess was 180* off from the real game. Are you really going to get any insight into the game in the next four days by poring over these statements? Even if there are stairs, we have no idea what theyre to, and people are already talking about changing their drivetrain designs.
But guessing is so much fun! :D

Spoilsport...

And comment for Ken: seeing the shape that car was in after it landed, I don't think that would be very good for our robots...

[KenWittlief]

but it was still running!

[swando]

i dunno, would they really pre-release an encrypted preview of the rules if they didnt want us to have a go at cracking it? cmon, this is robots, a good percentage of us are hackers, and pdf encryption is a bit shaky...

[Rickertsen2]

Nobody export the rulebook! (if you get this then you truly are nerdy.)


RC4 is pretty secure. I assure you that nobody will crack this rule book in time, unless they are really really really lucky. If you try to argue this point then i would say you don't have a very god understanding of RC4. Yes a few helpful vulnerabilities do exist, but these only reduce the time needed, and even then unless you have some $@#$@#$@#$@# powerful computers, it will still take to long. RC4 is actually pretty interesting. There are many good papers about it on the internet.

While RC4 is rather secure, the adobe implementation is poor, and not nearly as secure as it could be. Its almost as bad as the WEP implementation.

[Sachiel7]

Hmm. Lots of interesting ideas here. I think that yeah, stairs are likely. Especially for all that wood in the BOM. Also, remember that that is the "cheap" BOM, so if there are "goals", it may only include one, hence the 3 casters.

There were ideas about some sort of pyramid...
My point towards that: Anyone look into the Mars landings?

I doubt it's anything too crazy, but it sounds really sweet already. The one thing we can be sure about is there is definitially a big structure somewhere in there. My other guess is we're going to see goal(s) similar to 2002, hence the pvc, casters, and wood. I wouldn't doubt that the steel pole is for pivoting something, or grabbing.
Also, no actual scoring components are included, which means they must be a somewhat common off-shelf item again. My guess is balls are back. I know everyone gives the old been there done that, and balls got old, but I think if they find a rather unique type of ball, with a unique scoring method, that everyone would be satisfied.

As for the Vmax = 10 ft/sec...
Not much speculation has been put into that. What's the V? Velocity? Vertical? Not sure, but 10 fps will play a role. I doubt they'd limit our bot's speed. through, it would level some vets with the rookies...
But I doubt it.

Vmax is used in Kenetic equations alot...

If V is velocity, maybe each bot will be armed with a cannon? The cannons can shoot a maximum of 10 fps. Maybe they shoot tennis balls? Perhaps that's what's in the 12" cube?!??!
Oh, just frothing at the mouth. Heh.
Anyway, i think launching or swinging something is likely. V sounds like Velocity, and if it is, I doubt it applies to the bots.

[Cory]

Also, no actual scoring components are included, which means they must be a somewhat common off-shelf item again. My guess is balls are back. I know everyone gives the old been there done that, and balls got old, but I think if they find a rather unique type of ball, with a unique scoring method, that everyone would be satisfied.


They dont include a list of scoring items because they dont want us to know what they are. FIRST didnt tell us we would need to buy totes last year, or soccerballs the year before.

Cory

[danielkitchener]

Simple Physics:
2as = vf^2 - vi^2
from a rest, vi=0
vf = vmax = 10 ft/sec
a = accel of gravity = 32.174 ft/sec^2
s = distance
thus, distance = 1.55 ft = 1 ft, 6.6"
Standard stair size = 4-8"
Assuming stairs are average, this means 3 6" stairs, 5 4" stairs (about) or 2-3 8"stairs, though the 6" ones fit the equations so much nicer.
So, 3 6" stairs is my guess
****
As for paths, possibly a choice between autonomous or user mode for at least a small portion of time. User is easier, but autonomous might give more points/time. Reference to "time to choose" might mean you do one autonomous mode (at start, probably) and then get to pick whether to go back into it or not further on (middle or end of game).
But, again, these are just my theories

[Mark Pettit]

. . and what about the Vmax thing?
There is a motorcycle called the Vmax.
Two wheels or Four????
Maybe they'll give us a Segway as part of the kit?

[UlTiMaTeP]

Nobody export the rulebook! (if you get this then you truly are nerdy.)


RC4 is pretty secure. I assure you that nobody will crack this rule book in time, unless they are really really really lucky. If you try to argue this point then i would say you don't have a very god understanding of RC4. Yes a few helpful vulnerabilities do exist, but these only reduce the time needed, and even then unless you have some $@#$@#$@#$@# powerful computers, it will still take to long. RC4 is actually pretty interesting. There are many good papers about it on the internet.

While RC4 is rather secure, the adobe implementation is poor, and not nearly as secure as it could be. Its almost as bad as the WEP implementation.


– four characters: 22 minutes– five characters: 9 days– six characters: 42 days– seven characters: years

-unless I can get my hands on japan's 20 gigaflop supercomputer vault....

alpha x characters x # = 36^#

ohhhhh that could take a while

[Winged Globe]

As for paths, possibly a choice between autonomous or user mode for at least a small portion of time. User is easier, but autonomous might give more points/time. Reference to "time to choose" might mean you do one autonomous mode (at start, probably) and then get to pick whether to go back into it or not further on (middle or end of game).

Without overanalyzing it, I think this auton/driver mode switching is a more reasonable guess for this hint. Maybe we *have* to switch to auton mode for certain tasks.. puts those touch sensors and limit switches to good use.

[Adam Collet]

Returning to speculation on Vmax ... remember, FIRST official hints are obscure and try to get us thinking somewhere different from what the game actually is, though you can always figure the hints out in hindsight. Thinking along these lines, I highly doubt that it will be a maximum speed, and it is more likely but still improbable that it is giving us the height of the stairs. I'd think in totally different directions ... my mind doesn't really work this way, but for example, like (someone) mentioned not too long ago, Vmax, for one thing, is used a lot in kinetics stuff. So think along the lines of kinetics. Kinetic engergy. As opposed to potential energy. So constantly moving is important. Or you can get stuck somewhere and be trying to move but not going anywhere. Who knows. It's not very likely that we'll crank it out. Point is, it's more likely that it'll be something way off of the obvious. And besides, it's more fun to think about the clues this way.

[danielkitchener]

. . and what about the Vmax thing?
There is a motorcycle called the Vmax.
Two wheels or Four????
Maybe they'll give us a Segway as part of the kit?
V is the physics symbol for Velocity - speed with direction
I'm guessing 10 fps is down, given that they cannot control our robots in other directions due to the differences in drive trains
Vmax means maximum velocity, or the fastest velocity at which the robot or object will travel

[UlTiMaTeP]

spec·u·la·tion - Reasoning based on inconclusive evidence; conjecture or supposition.

[Matt Leese]

are there any teams sponsored by NSA? (National Security Agency)

they could bust the encryption in a matter of hours

but then again, they have rooms full of CRAY computers.
Team 1111 out of Maryland is sponsored by the NSA. I believe they only get financial support however.

Matt

[KenWittlief]

I like the idea that someone posted in the BOM thread

maybe the equation Vmax = 10 ft/sec is for scoring

maybe the V is for Value

and f and t are the number of objects you obtained, like floppies and tires

so to score points in auton mode you have to get at least one of each

and the /S means the sooner you switch off auton mode, the higher your score: 10/10 is a multiplyer of 1, 10/5 is a multiplyer of 2, 10/1 is a multiplyer of 10...

maybe we will choose WHEN to end auton mode this year.

Value max = (10 * F * T) / Seconds ?

why the max? maybe this will establish the max score you can get in the rest of the match, what you can score in manual mode?

[Coco the Monkey]

Exploration of Mars is popular this year in Science news and FIRST Lego League, so . . .

The height an object at rest needs to be on Mars to achieve 10 ft/sec
velocity SOLELY due to Mars gravity is 4 feet. This is the width of the
plywood sheets in the BOM. So a platform 4 feet high, terraced on one side
and on Mars would satisfy both the velocity tip and the "Stairway to
Heaven" tip.

Just something to think about. :D


1) Lyrics from "Stairway to Heaven"

2) Vmax = 10 ft/sec, but the clue does not say Vmax is on Earth.

Acceleration on Mars is 3.73 meters/sec/sec, or 12.23 ft/sec/sec.

Velocity(f) = velocity(o) + [acceleration(g) x time]

Velocity(f) = final velocity = 10 ft/sec (from clue)
Velocity(o) = initial velocity = 0 ft/sec (body at rest)
Acceleration(g) = Mars gravity = 12.23 ft/sec/sec
Time = 0.82 seconds

To determine the height an object would need to be to achieve this
velocity, you would use the distance equation:

X(f) = X(o) + [V(o)t] + 1/2[att]

X(f) = final distance
X(o) = initial distance = 0 (starting point)
V(o) = initial velocity = 0 ft/sec
t = time = 0.82 seconds
a = Mars gravity = 12.23 ft/sec
tt = time squared = 0.6724

X(f) = 4 feet (approximately)

[Bruce C.]

Exploration of Mars is popular this year in Science news and FIRST Lego League, so . . .


X(f) = 4 feet (approximately)

I was thinking along the same lines. Mars is the hot thing right now in robotics, and that 4 ft is a nice approximation to a sheet of plywood.

Another thing I was thinking was one of the "paths" having a sliding gate or portal mechanism that would require a Vmax of 10 ft/sec to clear.

I also like the Evil Kneviel jump idea!

Bruce C.

[computhief263]

I was thinking along the same lines. Mars is the hot thing right now in robotics, and that 4 ft is a nice approximation to a sheet of plywood.

Another thing I was thinking was one of the "paths" having a sliding gate or portal mechanism that would require a Vmax of 10 ft/sec to clear.

I also like the Evil Kneviel jump idea!

Bruce C.

0.o Hrmm...never thought of that. I was thinking that Vmax somehow related to the speed controllers or robot speed.

/me thinks this game could get real interesting real quick!!!

and that whole earth mars wutever velocity thing just confused me more *ponders* :confused:

[Sachiel7]

Ooohhohh...
I like some of the thinking here, don't assume that the ft/sec is feet per second. Sec could also be "Secondary". ft... maybe feet, but my guess is that its something else, like "Full Time", or...OH! Your Full Auto Time divided by the secondary scoring method?!? Ah, who knows.
I wonder what that FT is. Hmmhmmh. Ideas, anyone?
and the 10...
How does the number 10 play into FIRST's games? Usually it is a large scoring method, like KOTH, or having a goal in a zone type thing. So, focus more on the 10, think of how that number might be used in the game, and then use the rest of the phrase to try and clarify it.
I doubt the Vmax phrase has do do with the stairs, which I'm quite sure is what the second hint is about. So, It's probably about a scoring method, because they had one for obstacles already.

[DaSpyder]

http://www.heavenr.com/faith/twopaths.html This site contains those exact words, im thinking stairway to heaven!

[Caleb Fulton]

http://www.heavenr.com/faith/twopaths.html This site contains those exact words, im thinking stairway to heaven!


Are you saying the robot has to get baptized?






J/K, btw...

[swando]

http://www.heavenr.com/faith/twopaths.html This site contains those exact words, im thinking stairway to heaven!
as are 42 other people in this thread. the general consensus is that stairs will be involved. then again, everyone may end up wrong.

[Joe Matt]

Nobody export the rulebook! (if you get this then you truly are nerdy.)


RC4 is pretty secure. I assure you that nobody will crack this rule book in time, unless they are really really really lucky. If you try to argue this point then i would say you don't have a very god understanding of RC4. Yes a few helpful vulnerabilities do exist, but these only reduce the time needed, and even then unless you have some $@#$@#$@#$@# powerful computers, it will still take to long. RC4 is actually pretty interesting. There are many good papers about it on the internet.

While RC4 is rather secure, the adobe implementation is poor, and not nearly as secure as it could be. Its almost as bad as the WEP implementation.


Our state has the 3rd fastest supercomputer in the world, the G5 'Big Mac' Teracluster. Frankly, next year, I'm going to be making a trip to Blacksburg to have some fun cracking.... :p

Man, I'm disappointed that there won't be any real manuel (sp?) in the Kit o' Parts. I wonder if they'll give out the code before or after the field unvailing..........

[Rickertsen2]

Man, I'm disappointed that there won't be any real manuel (sp?) in the Kit o' Parts.unvailing..........

Where did you hear this?

Looks like i'll be ripping off the school or office printer agian

[Madison]

Where did you hear this?

Looks like i'll be ripping off the school or office printer agian

Read the first post of this thread ;)

[Buster]

Nice job w/ the lyrics, but according to AC/DC there's also an opposite to a STAIRWAY TO HEAVEN, there's also a HIGHWAY TO HELL. so in my opinion, there's probably a highway as well as a stairway or som'n

[Joe Matt]

Nice job w/ the lyrics, but according to AC/DC there's also an opposite to a STAIRWAY TO HEAVEN, there's also a HIGHWAY TO HELL. so in my opinion, there's probably a highway as well as a stairway or som'n


Howabout an Interstate to Manchester?

[MOEmaniac]

[SIZE=7][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Impact]where do u get stairs from Vmax = 10 ft/sec

[RogerR]

where do u get stairs from Vmax = 10 ft/secwe don't get stairs from Vmax=10 ft/sec; we get it from the cryptic reference to the led zeppilin [<---edit: oops..] song 'stairway to heaven', but, as some of my team mates are arguing, this reference could be taken as proof that there are not stairs at all, since the 'stair' reference in 'stairway to heaven' seems too obvious for FIRST.;)
I personally am hoping for stairs (or stair-like objects).

[Eric Reed]

My theory, with 2% confidence:

10 ft/sec represents the max velocity of an oscillator, such as a pendulum, ball on a curved surface, skateboard on a half-pipe (!). I think (again with 2% confidence...I didn't actually do the math, but 'adjusted' an example I found) that a 100 lb object starting at a 10ft altitude down an arc would be somewhere around 10 ft/sec at the bottom of the arc.

All right, I'll be bold. 3% confidence.

Eric.

[KenWittlief]

we get it from the cryptic reference to the AC/DC song 'stairway to heaven'...


[bangs head against wall] AAAAAHHHHHHHGGGGGgggg!!!

Pete Townshend must be spinning in his grave right about now!

[/bangs head against wall]

[KenWittlief]

My theory, with 2% confidence:

10 ft/sec represents the max velocity of an oscillator, such as a pendulum, ball on a curved surface, skateboard on a half-pipe (!). I think (again with 2% confidence...I didn't actually do the math, but 'adjusted' an example I found) that a 100 lb object starting at a 10ft altitude down an arc would be somewhere around 10 ft/sec at the bottom of the arc.

All right, I'll be bold. 3% confidence.

Eric.

excellent idea, but you REALLY didnt do the math

an object rolling down an arc'd incline would be going 10ft/S after loosing 18" of height - and it doesnt matter how much it weighs

but I think you have hit on something else - maybe there will be a rotating platform, or goal - lets say... 8 feet in diameter, and its outer surface will be rotating at 10 ft/S.

you have to either get your bot onto the rotating platform, or place scoring objects onto it?

[danielkitchener]

Here's a link to my post on another thread with ideas about this blast:
Here (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=204194#post204194)

[Mr. Ivey]

I'm going to throw my 2 cents into the pot. Heck with everyone's 2 cents in here whoever gets the guess will have about a dollar in winnings. My hypothesis broken down:

The Song: Stairway to Heaven by Led Zepplin are the lyrics the song is from. The title of the song leads that there will be stairs, seems obvious. But as I read through the lyrics of the song there were some things that made me laugh and think... Right after the lyric that was given from the song appears the phrase: "Your head is humming and it won't go because you don't know" (in reply, yes I have a head ache from thinking and honestly I still don't know what the play is for sure). Also earlier in the song appears this phrase: "And you know sometimes words have two meanings... Sometimes all of our thoughts are misgiven". This leads to my presumption that while we are given this information about two paths that we can switch from and the Vmax=10ft/sec, couldn't it be something that we are just not thinking and it's right in front of us... Sometimes our thoughs, our imagination generates more suspicioun than needed, and could it cause us to go to far in our guess.

Vmax: yes Vmax is maximum velocity in physics, just like we went over for the millionth time in class today, but V could also mean vertical. An antonym for max is min, and if "words sometimes have two meanings" this might be true.

10: Also things in scoring that are 10 feet, basketball goal...

I just wanted to throw some observations out there, I honestly don't want to make a prediction because then I will have in my mind that, that is the play. So on Saturday we will see.
Ivey

[Eric Reed]

excellent idea, but you REALLY didnt do the math

an object rolling down an arc'd incline would be going 10ft/S after loosing 18" of height - and it doesnt matter how much it weighs



Oops...yeah, I didn't notice that the mass cancelled out in the example formula. Oh, well...I still give it 3%, maybe 4% confidence of having something to do with the competition

Eric.

[Dan Richardson]

Well My 2 cents.. I havn't really posted anything just because I've been well Thinking..

So here are some of my randomed though processes

We all know FIRST knows we are too bright to let a led z' lyric go past us, so we should know that they know that. Establishing this, we should automatically assume that FIRST wouldn't make it that obvious they want us to go above and beyond. We realise that STAIRway to heaven is the song title.. well then we think STAIRS.. but the thing is I think thats exactly what FIRST wants us to think.

Lets think outside the box. What could either be something inside the song.. or in the song title itself that could be of use to our investigation. Start thinking what else could this mean.. mayb they want to strive for perfection in this game.. take the stairway to heaven. Mayb they are combining all the best aspects of past games.. and making them into a super uber game.

I'm not sure quite yet.. how to put everything together.. but I have only 1 class tommorrow I've got to figure it out.. I just don't think it'll be stairs.. I gotta think outside this darned box

dan

[Elgin Clock]

Another even more obscure guess here...

I listened to the song in question and the verse that is quoted starts at the 4:30 mark into the song...

4:30 = 4 robots on the field, and 30 seconds of autonomous??

Well, remember how obscure the hint last year was.. umm... yeah..

[Jedi Padawan]

Ok through the combined intuitive powers of 3 years experience I derive the following clues from the BOM and the Hints.

First (no pun intended) there will be stairs and probably an obstacle of some sort that will force you to use them. (say in this case a long ramp with a gate on it (3 casters would be about right for that)) and the stairs would be the shorter way around. (what else are we doing with that insane amount of PVC and 2x12's??) I also derive that there will probably either be a lengthened autonomous or a complete autonomous with competitive edge design so that you press a go button and you can take over. This makes too much sense to ignore, It would challenge the older teams (program wise as well as mechanically) and give the younger teams a fair shot. All the older teams have pretty much figured out a universal base or some sort of method to speed up the process whereas the younger ones still need alot of time to figure this out each year and consequently don't have as much time to devote to fully programming in an autonomous mode. :rolleyes:

oh well thats my 2% confidence


P.S. by the way my team as an idea submitted the idea of a spinning octagon in the center of the field last year, go figure if it's a spinning item with stairs I can see this suddenly becoming problematic... :ahh: :ahh:

[rees2001]

Here are some random thoughts on the clue...
10 = ten is a little obvious.So Binary 10 = decimal 2.
Vmax could mean max velocity, again it seems a bit obvious. like stated above it could be the vertical limit.
The Stairway to Heaven idea = Stairs, again obvious. (Or first just doesn't think we know any music). From what I've been told if you play Stairway to Heaven backwards you get a satanic message, so there will be fire & brimstone in this years game.
So in conclusion there will be 2ft high flames that the robots will have to drive through.

Or we can all just wait until tomorrow. :p

[scuba_sm]

Well, I'm thinking that if Vmax is truly a max, it's going to be something that is unalterable by teams, so it can't the max speed of robots, motors, etc. Anybody ever play with wiffle balls? Those plastic balls with the holes in them? Those reach terminal velocity pretty quick, maybe around 10 fps... They are also cheap and plentiful, so we don't need to worry about them being hard to find. Who knows?

[White Wolf]

Eric and I were talking yesterday where, among other things, he proposed the pendular possibility. I liked it.

He boldly gave it a 3% confidence. I think it is at least 50%. That may be foolish, but I have great faith in fools, my friends call it self-confidence.

I also could see a kind of Skee-Ball kinda game, where the pendulum periodically blocks the shot. Eric proposed the pendulum could regulate how many points you get if you score.

It was enjoyable to speculate.