The Manuall will be cracked in... [Archive]

Stu Bloom

07-01-2004, 09:28

wouldnt it be great if the manual was encoded in such a way that, there were more than one keys that would give you readable output

bot only one would give you the correct output

so a team might hack the manual and THINK they can read it - but what they are reading is all wrong?
B-E-A-utiful ! :D

But I am wondering why only 8 of 12 sections are being released. If there is a security concern then why release anything? Otherwise why not release it all ? Also, the timing stinks - I will be traveling to KO on Thursday evening, as I suspect most of the other attendees will also. Anyone know if SNHU has a wireless network?

Mark Garver

07-01-2004, 09:31

I think the reason for only having 8 of 12 sections on Thursday is because what is the purpose of encoding parts of the manual that are not relavent at all to the game this year. Meaning the part for scholarships and such. Just a guess here, as is everything else at this point... :confused:

Stu Bloom

07-01-2004, 09:37

... what is the purpose of encoding parts of the manual that are not relavent at all to the game this year...
I never thought of that ... good point!

That actually makes sense - which is why it probably is NOT the "right" answer ... (sorry I've been around big business too long)

kmcclary

07-01-2004, 10:57

wouldnt it be great if the manual was encoded in such a way that, there were more than one keys that would give you readable output [but] only one would give you the correct output
so a team might hack the manual and THINK they can read it - but what they are reading is all wrong? LOL! Funny idea!

Gee... IMHO, this close to the contest it really doesn't matter. Even if someone DID crack it, you can't do much with only an extra 24 hours of "advance notice", and most people (at least those of us with a life!) wish to go out and have a nice Friday night! :)

Seriously though, any password will either generate garbage, or the real output. But it IS true that many DIFFERENT combinations of characters CAN potentially unlock it, and most analysis software simply generates the very first key it finds that does the job. Therefore, if someone DOES manage to open it that way, go ahead and PROVE you did it (AFTER the manual has been officially released) by posting an ALTERNATIVE key to unlock it. That would be a good wakeup call. BTW, commercial services charge big bucks and may take up to 25-30 days to return your opened PDF file, so if you want to wait until the middle of the build for it, go ahead! :)

Personally, I think it's a tactical mistake to release the manual over one day in advance. After all, you've sponsors from EVERY industry, and many have some SERIOUS supercomputers at their disposal for things like finite element analysis work. For example, I used to work in the building at an automotive supplier, with an ARRAY of supercomputers at my disposal for just that. I don't THINK they had "forgotten password" software loaded on it, but I never checked. There ARE legit uses for that, such as opening vital internal company documents to keep your own business in operation when an employee quits or suddenly dies. Given the right sponsor in the right position with the right computers at their disposal, it may be able to be opened VERY quickly. Therefore, if *I* were in FIRST's position, I'd simply make it a policy of releasing the encoded version no more than 24 hours before the true unveiling.

- Keith

Stephen Kowski

07-01-2004, 11:29

frankly i haven't seen any cracker that can get through 128 bit encryption (most are 40 bit) plus it would take a few days (most likely more than the two days we will get) to brute force crack the documents anyways (unless you have some server farm working together), either way it is probably just easier to wait.

Chris Hibner

07-01-2004, 11:41

Jeremy_Mc

07-01-2004, 11:54

Matt Attallah

07-01-2004, 11:57

Not that I would be stupid enough to do it, but with a P4 it would take about a week to crack a 4 character password, somewhere in the neighborhood of 7 weeks to crack a 5 character password, and it just gets incredibly large after that. Employing a "supercomputer" really won't help because anything that could crack that fast enough probably isn't running Windows which is what most "password recovery" programs run on.

It's pointless...just wait a day.
Exactly. Plus - what is the REAL advantage? When you find out - it's not like you can call your whole team togther. I say just wait the day - and just be shocked and have fun like the rest of us will! :)

KenWittlief

07-01-2004, 12:18

the only reason they are releasing the encrypted files early is so their server is not swamped at 10:01AM on saturday

950+ teams all trying to download 10 or 20MBytes of files at the same time

actually I dont need the manual for the first couple days anyway - our team will spend the first meeting or two analysizing the game, how you score points, to determine what our robot needs to do to score the most points under the worst case conditions

all we need for that is the description of the game, and how to calculate the score at the end.

swando

07-01-2004, 16:21

sure it could be cracked (in more than a few days with a supercomputer.), but so what? a 2 day advance on the rules? you still havent seen the game played, so you'll be confused as heck, and whats a 2 day gain on strategy? not much.
not to mention its not in the spirit of FIRST to get an unfair advantage on the rules.

khwoodside

07-01-2004, 16:26

its a short term encoding used by the goverment at one point in the past... of course it can be cracked, but unless you have 72hrs straight free time... doubt you're gonna crack it before saturday :D

Clark Gilbert

07-01-2004, 16:29

So by now some of you have no doubt heard that the manual will be avalible Thursday Night on the First site in Encrypted form. (RC-128) Here is my question how long will it take for some industrious FIRSTers to break into it?? ;-) I could probable secure a beowulf cluster for the effort.
I'm not trying to be a butt or anything, but isn't this thread against forum rules?

By clicking the Agree button, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-orientated, racist, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws. THIS INCLUDES THE DISCUSSION OF WAREZ, FILE-SHARING PROGRAMS, CRACKING, AND ANY OTHER WAY OF STEALING SOFTWARE OR ANY OTHER COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL. You also agree not to post the same message in multiple forums, or use the forums as a real-time chat, continuing a 2-3 person conversation on for numerious posts in a short period of time.
:confused:

swando

07-01-2004, 16:32

[QUOTE=Clark Gilbert]I'm not trying to be a butt or anything, but isn't this thread against forum rules?[QUOTE]
eh i would say technically yes, but in reality no. i doubt it would be illegal to crack the manual password, this is more of an intellectual challenge.

D.J. Fluck

07-01-2004, 16:35

eh i would say technically yes, but in reality no. i doubt it would be illegal to crack the manual password, this is more of an intellectual challenge.

All cracking/hacking is an intellectual challenge, but rules are rules, so I'd say yes that is against forum rules.

So just chill out and wait...

kevin.li.rit

07-01-2004, 16:38

I plan to use a ouiji board to get my best guess for the manual. Not like I have anything better to do on a Friday night.

Joe Johnson

07-01-2004, 16:52

To be honest, I don't really like this poll or this thread.

But... ...I decided not to delete it.

Basically, I think that FIRST has enough technical savy to encrypt the files in a way that is for all intents and purposes unbreakable in time for it to be any use.

In light of that, I decided that it wasn't worth quashing.

But... ...I still don't like a lot of the tone of what's going on here.

I hope that this is not an indication of how things are going to go when we are all reading the rules and figuring out whether this or that strategy is allowed or not.

The term "Gracious Professionalism" is used a lot around here.

It is my hope that beyond spicing up our messages with the word we will all choose to put the ideal into practice at every opportunity in the 2004 Season.

Joe J.

kevin.li.rit

07-01-2004, 17:06

I have no intention of decrypting it prior to saturday afternoon. I think for must of us we're just really anxious to get started so we're dreaming about decrypting the manual which probably won't happen.

intx13

07-01-2004, 17:10

Noone is trying to get any special benefits by getting the manual early, its just a challenge. Programmers are pretty much all the same, tell us you're releasing secrets, but noone can look at them, and we'll all want to try. Just like after we do (if we manage to) we probably won't tell anyone. But you can bet we'll gloat!

Noone means FIRST any harm, I'm sure.

Joel Glidden

07-01-2004, 17:23

sanddrag

07-01-2004, 18:40

How about if it's just for fun you all try to hack the test file? I know you have the password but your the computer hacking into it doesn't so wouldn't that satisfy you all just the same?

OneAngryDaisy

07-01-2004, 19:16

Trying to figure out what the game may be from the low cost BOM or the emailed clues is essentially the same thing as trying to decrypt the manual. It's a puzzle, a problem, a challenge. I very seriously doubt anyone involved in this thread has any intent of trying to cheat by reading the rules early. Its just that some of us are simply enticed by the challenge of a good puzzle. Also, anyone with the tools and the knowledge it would take to decrypt the manual would also know that cracking it before 12pm EST 1/10/2004 is about as likely as ... something very unlikely.

-Joel

I really have to disagree with this post and a lot of other similar ones.. FIRST was doing something thoughtful releasing this manual early, i remember having to smack my computer last year when it refused to download the manual thanks to a overdose of other FIRSTers downloading it. Lets not turn something 'nice' in something that FIRST would regret. If it was a simple code, not a complex encryption then sure go ahead and take a hack, but because they put such a elaborate encryption in i think its a hint to be patient. Let's just thank them for thinking of us instead of trying to cheat..

sorry if i came off a bit harsh-

Ryan Albright

07-01-2004, 20:20

I think we all hear believe in fair advantage and i hope that no one cracks it. but if you want to waste yoru time and break Gracious Profesonlism (sorry butchered that) then go ahead but remeber you are lowering respect with others casue FIRST is all about having fun why bother cracking it part of the fun is waiting till saturday

Wetzel

07-01-2004, 20:21

actually I dont need the manual for the first couple days anyway - our team will spend the first meeting or two analysizing the game, how you score points, to determine what our robot needs to do to score the most points under the worst case conditions

all we need for that is the description of the game, and how to calculate the score at the end.

Thats excatly what the manual contains. Physical limits (field description) and scoring rules. Throw in a few other offlimit things, and you have a game shaped around what FIRST says you can and can't do.

Just watching the kickoff can be misleading. I recall in the past where people said, "but Dean said x durring kickoff!" as justification for something that didn't wasn't in compliance with the rules. The written rules are Law.

Wetzel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hacking is terrorism according to the Patriot Act.

pauluffel

07-01-2004, 20:29

DanL

07-01-2004, 20:50

I think everyone needs to stop being serious and realize this thread was supposed to be humorous, much like how all of us are taking wild and shot-in-the-dark guesses to the game in other threads (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23371)...

Jeremy_Mc

07-01-2004, 21:19

I think it would be more fun to try and guess what the password would be, because it seems most likely that it would be something logical, rather than a random string of characters becuse 128 is so secure (I mentioned it to my CS teacher and received a skeptical look and the reply "large prime encryption? you could maybe crack it in a month or so" [and she's been playing with computers for quite a while, but if a month is wrong, cool] ).

I doubt I'll have the time to try out fun phrases (and if I did, I would close the file rather than reading, because cheating is no fun) but it would be fun just to see that creativity is more powerful complex encryption.

My guess is that the password is this year's game name (like ZoneZeal in 2002, et al.).

Yeah...the encryption they used is really secure. I'm sure they wouldn't use a short password that would be crackable within any conceivable amount of time. I'm positive if they were doing this they'd release it with a password that's going to take a month+ even with a 'supercomputer.'

Suneet

07-01-2004, 21:46

I did some research, and from it I estimate that it will take 100 P4 @ 2GHz computers about 24hrs to check every possible password for the 128 bit RSA encryption. Two or three graphics people with access to render farms could get enough processing power to break it fast enough, or one could use a small distributed computing project. Hehe, no I don't think any of us are going to... unless... ;)

Andrew Rosselet

07-01-2004, 22:06

I seem to be missing something...Why are we spending so much time and energy for a frivelous *day* (if that) of extra time when we could be working on more important issues such as programming or fundraising? :confused:

I see why FIRST has decided upon this solution and it does make sense! ;)

echos

07-01-2004, 22:12

For those of who still think its worth it to try and find the password here are sum numbers to crunch.

I got these results from trying the test document.
Computer:
Dual Athlon MPs 1800+ 1.53GHz processors
PC2100 DDR ECC Reg. 512MB
Windows XP Pro

Software:
*Name of software used will be posted after the official kickoff password is given.

Stats:
The method used was Brute-Force with the following set of charactors [A-Z] [a-z] [0-9] with a range 1-15 charactors long.

14,000 passwords per secound average

781,514,782,079,074,318,856,775,914 Possiable Passwords

692,872,793,493,106,442,870,877,008 Passwords before "2004DecryptTest"

In other words for those of you that have bothered to read this far it would take several years just to figure out "2004DecryptTest".

Some more numbers to crunch for you. 62 the number of charactors per chractor length, with the total lenth of 15

62 nPr 15

Stu Bloom

07-01-2004, 22:13

Rickertsen2

07-01-2004, 22:45

Actually I would have to agree with Clark Gilbert regarding the "appropriateness" (is that a word?) of this entire thread. As I am sure the manual is "copyrighted material" and FIRST obviously does not intend for the information to be distributed before Saturday at kickoff.
Heh stupid DMCA.

Honestly, does this thread really look like a serious attempt at cracking the rules? No, its a discussion of the security of RC4 and PDF. Have you seen one person post saying they are tryign to crack the thing? I think not. Really, come on now, if you don't agree with this thread then don't waste your time posting in it.

generalbrando

07-01-2004, 23:02

For me, one of the best moments of the build season is that rush you get sitting there waiting for them to reveal the game :). If anyone cracks it, don't tell me.

Cory

07-01-2004, 23:19

Alright guys, 128 bit encryption is totally secure, at least given the time we have, so stop even discussing the possibilities of cracking it. If anyone actually even tries, in my eyes, that is a disgrace to everyone who participates in FIRST. yeah, most of you probably are joking, but why even joke?

:confused:

Cory

Wetzel

08-01-2004, 00:10

Heh stupid DMCA.

Honestly, does this thread really look like a serious attempt at cracking the rules? No, its a discussion of the security of RC4 and PDF. Have you seen one person post saying they are tryign to crack the thing? I think not. Really, come on now, if you don't agree with this thread then don't waste your time posting in it.

If everyone agreed with each other, it would be a very boring place.
Last year there were threads about weather or not collusion was good or bad,
but no one said that if you didn't agree that you shouldn't speak up.

*fails to finds words to express the validity of opposing views/thoughts*

Wetzel
~~~~~~~~~
Variety is the spice of life.

dlavery

08-01-2004, 00:53

I'm not trying to be a butt or anything, but isn't this thread against forum rules?
eh i would say technically yes, but in reality no. i doubt it would be illegal to crack the manual password, this is more of an intellectual challenge.

Whoa. That sounds suspiciously like the standard excuse that virtually every serious hacker has used over the years - even when committing blatantly illegal acts. "It was just an intellectual challenge - I didn't mean to do anything wrong" is no excuse for breaking the rules or violating the law. Joking or not, I think you are trying to walk a very tight line with that attitude.

In our society we have come to accept "I didn't mean to" excuses as a rationale for irresponsible behavior. Some famous sports figures have refined it to an art form. Pete Rose bets on baseball, in full, knowledgeable violation of the rules of the league, and then basically says "I didn't really hurt anyone, and besides I am so good at the game that I deserve to be in the Hall of Fame anyway." And a whole lot of baseball fans say he is right! Mike Tyson bites off Evander Holyfield's ear, and uses the excuse "I just got caught up in the moment - twice." He admits on national TV that he hit his wife hard enough to throw her across the room, calling it "the best punch I ever threw." But it is OK "because she made me mad," and nothing happens. The governor of Texas gives his OK to pay amateur players at SMU because "it would be good for the state" - despite the fact that it was blatantly illegal. Clem Haskins has his staff write literally hundreds of papers for his basketball players to submit as their own work at the University of Minnesota, and then obscenely refuses to admit that there was anything wrong with the practice, as if the very concept of "plagiarism" didn't even exist.

Somehow we have come to think that wonderful performance ON the field justifies bestial behavior OFF the field. But at some point, you have to stand up and say "wait a minute - you guys are all adults, and you all know better. You want to be treated like grown-ups (and paid grown-up salaries), then you better start behaving like grown-ups. YOU are responsible for your own behavior, and no one else. If you screw up, then YOU are the one at fault. And just saying 'I didn't mean to' doesn't cut it any more."

So why do I care at all about this? Because the quote above says that, on OUR playfield - the environment of the FIRST competition and the community of teams that define the FIRST culture - some may think that it is OK to bend or break the rules, as long as it is covered by the "I'm not trying to break the law, I was just curious" rubric. I am only speaking for myself, but I do not think that is acceptable behavior. I am not satisfied with the attitudes that society finds acceptable. I believe that the best way to change those attitudes is to change society. And one of the best ways to do that is to raise the standards of "acceptability" and then live by them. I would hope that within THIS community, we are trying to do that.

[/end soapbox]

-dave

Matt Leese

08-01-2004, 07:52

So why do I care at all about this? Because the quote above says that, on OUR playfield - the environment of the FIRST competition and the community of teams that define the FIRST culture - some may think that it is OK to bend or break the rules, as long as it is covered by the "I'm not trying to break the law, I was just curious" rubric. I am only speaking for myself, but I do not think that is acceptable behavior. I am not satisfied with the attitudes that society finds acceptable. I believe that the best way to change those attitudes is to change society. And one of the best ways to do that is to raise the standards of "acceptability" and then live by them. I would hope that within THIS community, we are trying to do that.

This is going to change the subject a bit but it's the first thing that I thought of after reading this. I should start off by saying that I completely agree with you. My main concern is that FIRST itself doesn't really seem to follow such guidelines. Except, in FIRST case, it's okay to break the rules because the teams spent time designing and building the component. There were major incidents of FIRST allowing teams to overrule FIRST's initial judgements simply by being stuburn occuring in 2002 and there was at least one incident I'm aware of last year.

Consider this a bit of a request to FIRST to hold the community to a high level of standards as far as following the rules of the competition go.

Matt

Joe Matt

08-01-2004, 08:43

Well, Dave, while I agree that breaking rules is bad, the simple fact that FIRST wants us to be creative in our decisions and robots sometimes requires us to find loop-holes in the rules. Now, I'm not saying totally illegal stuff, but I mean like the teather idea in 2002. Simply put Dave, I think this whole discussion has gotten out of controll. More hurt feelings and bad reputations will come from this than any more discussion.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23313

Ken Leung

08-01-2004, 09:31

I posted this in another thread, but I feel like I should repeat it in here. If moderators want to delete this double message, feel free to do so. :-)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Curiosity is a good thing. It drive people to use their imagination and problem solving skills. But do that justify what you are trying to find out? Well, it depends. It is great that you have good intentions, in this case, trying to learn something. But sometimes good intention isn't good enough. History told us a lot of people had great intentions when they wanted to do something, but their action were not approved by everyone else because of the consequences of those actions, not because they had good intentions.

In order words, a lot of times the rest of your action determines if you are doing something right or wrong. In this case, if you are trying to crack the pdf files FIRST released ahead of time even though they do not wish anyone to read them before the game is revealed, then you violated their trust. It doesn't matter if you keep it a secret and never say anything about it. You are the one who have to live with your action, and its consequences. If FIRST found out and stop providing the pdfs ahead of time in the future, then your action (that you thought was harmless) affected everyone else in the FIRST community. If FIRST never found out? Well, then you will have to live with it the rest of your life. You can probably brag to your friends what you've accomplished, and some may or may not approve.

You may or may not agree with FIRST in releasing these files ahead of time. What's done is done. The important point is FIRST trusted everyone to wait until Saturday morning. What you do with that trust is up to you.

Like JosephM said, this topic is probably beaten to death. Chances are, FIRST will think twice about it next year. No need to argue what's right or wrong. At the end, all of you is responsible for your own action. It is time like this when you test out who you truely are. I just hope you don't find something you dislike about yourself.

Let's take a break, go get yourself a cup of hot tea (or whatever suits you), sit in front of the fire place or TV, and relax :-). You are about to approach insanity in the next few months. Enjoy your sanity while you can.

Joe Johnson

08-01-2004, 10:02

Here is YET ANOTHER reason why this thread is a bad idea:

Perceptions MATTER!

I believe that FIRST has used a good encryption scheme -- good enough that noboby will get to the data before it is worthless to get to.

I understand that, but my MOM wouldn't (unless she asked her son).

My Mom would think, "Hey, I don't know anything about this whole encryption business, but here are these hacker guys saying they can crack the code in minutes, they are probably wrong, but they just might be right, I can't tell."

This is a reasonable thing for a lot of people to think -- even people associated with FIRST who are more techinically savy than my Mom, but still don't appreciate the implications of the difficulty of factoring large integers.

If enough people believe that FIRST's secrecy has been compromised and that the game is fixed or rigged or whatever, this is not good for FIRST.

In the absense of more reasonable folks (Dave Lavery, et. al.) telling people the real deal, I honestly believe that FIRST's reputation would have been damaged by all this talk of how easy it will be to crack the code.

Bottom line: FIRST is really important to me (and a lot of others) and we don't like it when WE have to take steps to do "damage control" so that THEY can "entertain" themselves.

Joe J.

Paul Copioli

08-01-2004, 10:27

Dave L,

After reading your post reacting to Swando's post, I had the same reaction as you. I was a bit upset and since we have our team meeting today;Mr. Swando (yes, Swando is his last name), a 3 year veteran on our team, and I were going to have a little discussion.

However,

I read his previous post (post #13, I think) and subsequent posts and I think his statement was taken a little out of context. His previous post makes it clear were he stands on the "spirit of FIRST" issue. His post you reacted to was a poor attempt to disagree regarding the rules of this forum. The Forum rules clearly state you can't post about anything illegal and Mike was arguing that this discussion should be allowed based on the fact that cracking the FIRST code is not illegal. Editorial note: while I think it is not a good idea to try to crack the code because it is in no way GP, I do not think it is illegal in this instance; but I could be wrong.

I agree that I do not like this discussion very much, but the bottom line in my post is to defend my student Mike Swando.

-Paul

Rick

08-01-2004, 10:29

if you do not heed any of the advice in this thread and decide to hack the password, dont make any info public. For the sake of you, your team, and the thread that holds first together, that would be 1000000000x worse than any thing you could ever say on these boards.

Wetzel

08-01-2004, 11:42

I got some comments, and just wanted to clairify my posts.

I support the right to DISCUSS about how to go about solving the code and the methods used to encrypt it.

I do NOT support the actuall cracking of the documents.

Wetzel

KenWittlief

08-01-2004, 11:45

people are taking this thread way to seriously.

before we inflict an absolute moral code on all the FIRST students, I wonder... what would Dean Kamen do?

ask Dean sometime about how his company got started, a little bending of the rules at a place called The Museum of Natural History in Manhatten.

Ask him about the time he send his parents away on vacation (while he was a teenager) and what he did to his parents house while they were away! (or borrow a copy of the book "Code Name Ginger" and read the first chapter.

to hack open the PDF files before saturday, you would have to be a genius. The real issue here is, IF you were able to open them, what would you do with them before saturday?

I dont see anyone here advocating hacking the files to get an unfair advantage over other teams - what I see is the natural curiosity that all geeks and nerdy people possess - put a challenge infront of them, and the gears start spinning - nobody can stop those gears from spinning

Fortunately!

we will have a much greater and important challenge infront of us on saturday, and all this will be forgotten. But if by some chance someone does have the ability to decode the files before saturday, NSA and the FBI will both have standing job offers for you. :c)

Chris Hibner

08-01-2004, 11:56

I dont see anyone here advocating hacking the files to get an unfair advantage over other teams - what I see is the natural curiosity that all geeks and nerdy people possess - put a challenge infront of them, and the gears start spinning - nobody can stop those gears from spinning

This is where I disagree with you.

If someone said, "Hey, I wonder what it would take to crack 128-bit encryption", that is one thing, but to say "I wonder what it would take to crack the manual" is different. You've added a target to your ploy, and generally, the people that are targeted will take offense to such statements.

And if you don't think that a target has been put on this initiative, just look at the subject of this thread. The subject is "The MANUAL will be cracked in..." (emphasis added); NOT "128-bit encryption can be cracked in..."

To make an analogy, let's look at the two following statements:

"I wonder if I can make a 500 lb explosive."

and

"I wonder if I can blow up the White House."

Technically, these questions pose the same challenge - making a 500 lb explosive. However, ask the FBI or CIA if they would take these two statements differently, and I bet they would definitely answer "yes". It doesn't matter if the guy is really going to blow up the White House or he is just interested in the technical challenge of building a bomb - by using the 2nd statement, he is sure to be setting himself up for investigation and possible incarceration.

You can argue that the difference is just semantics or perception, which I would agree with. However, it's pretty clear that in the non-geek world, perception is usually more important than reality.

-Chris

kevinw

08-01-2004, 12:08

There would be no moral dilemma, given the cracking activity began on Sunday, January 11th. I would be quite interested in seeing how long the cracking activity took, given it did not compromise the integrity of the FIRST robotics competition. This would be an intellectual challenge with no possible unfair advantages or repercussions.

However, this does not seem to be the goal. The explicit goal seems to be cracking the manual in advance of the key being given. There is no moral question about this. It is quite clear.

If anyone succeeds in this activity prior to kick-off, please do not post anything here, so as to not involve the rest of us in your activities.

FotoPlasma

08-01-2004, 13:20

Because everyone seems to be putting something in on this conversation...

I think that if anyone is seriously interested in cryptology, cryptography, and cryptanalysis, go pick up a copy of Applied Cryptography, Second Edition (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0471117099/qid=1073585575//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i0_xgl14/104-1667065-9707124?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)
by Bruce Schneier, rather than obviously maliciously trying to crack the encryption of the FIRST manual. Or even, as another alternative, encrypt something yourself, and try to decipher it.

Not that it's realistic for anyone to be able to actually decipher the manual before Saturday, but just realize that just looking at a part of the manual would give you, whether you wanted it or not, a completely unfair advantage over all other teams in FIRST. Some people don't mind taking whatever advantages they can get ahold on, no matter any code of ethics, but I think most people would actually like to have a level playing field for this season.

Jeremy_Mc

08-01-2004, 13:49

Dave L,
Editorial note: while I think it is not a good idea to try to crack the code because it is in no way GP, I do not think it is illegal in this instance; but I could be wrong.

http://www.freesklyarov.org/

Not illegal? I know it's not exactly the same thing, but Adobe is pretty protective of their PDF format and its encryption. I understand there are programs that allow 'password recovery,' but those are sold under the pretense you set the original password (or have a legally binding reason to obtain it otherwise), thus using one in this case would be quite illegal.

I agree this is being taken quite seriously when it probably shouldn't be, but some of the replies simply don't make any sense to me. I have to agree with Chris Hibner, when you set a target it's a whole new precedent. If you want to discuss cryptography, don't mention the manual and try to crack something else. Even discussing is enough to A) rouse suspicion or B) rouse blind sentiment.

Greg McCoy

08-01-2004, 16:01

This thread says a lot about the people who have posted in it. Andy Baker reminded us in a team meeting Tuesday that a lot of people read these forums (at current count as I post this there are 2,358 views of this thread), so remember that when you post these things :)

Aignam

08-01-2004, 16:06

I think that if anyone is seriously interested in cryptology, cryptography, and cryptanalysis, go pick up a copy of...

Dan Brown books.

swando

08-01-2004, 21:13

ok, thank you to Paul for already defending me on my lame attempt to speak, but i believe ill have a go at it myself, salvage a bit of my honor.
Whoa. That sounds suspiciously like the standard excuse that virtually every serious hacker has used over the years - even when committing blatantly illegal acts. "It was just an intellectual challenge - I didn't mean to do anything wrong" is no excuse for breaking the rules or violating the law. Joking or not, I think you are trying to walk a very tight line with that attitude.
in the first place, my post did state that the thread was indeed against forum rules, but then i gave my contrasting opinion on the matter. Mr. Lavery most likely did not read my prior post, which is very understandable. i dont completely research the history of the posts when commenting. but if he had he may have seen that i do actually care for the spirit of FIRST and gracious professionalism. i have for the 2 prior years i have been on the team and i will continue; its truly what makes FIRST better than most organizations... for those who follow it.
the point i made was weak, however. that sort of cracking discussion is against forum rules and cracking the manual probably could be illegal (especially with the tight internet restrictions of today). i dont think it was completely fair to immediately lump me in with 'hackers' or blaring illegalities from the news world. nor do i think it was fair to categorize my behavior and the overall topic of this thread as 'bestial behavior' off field in a FIRST atmosphere. i think it was only the first post in this thread that referred to the actual methods of cracking the manual encryption.
i understand that Mr. Lavery did continue his discussion on a sort of tangent and i hope at least that not all of the discussion of illegal activity was aimed at me, most of his points i agree with. i dont believe that discussion of the 'bending of rules' is completely evil, nor deviant to a fantastic degree. part of growing up is exploring your boundaries and bending the rules a little bit, i believe that its part of life. personally im glad that the most awful thing found on this board is the pseudo-subversive use of mathematics and not the legality of bomb-making techniques.
i hope it isnt against forum rules to say 'bomb-making techniques'.

again, weak arguments on my part, but i had to try to defend my honor.

Dan9874123

08-01-2004, 21:21

This is really pointless anyway. Probably the only organization in the country that could crack that encryption by Saturday would be the NSA. FIRST knew what they were doing when they released this. They knew that there was a very slim chance of the PDF encryption being broken by an amateur hacker in a space of 2 days. So to anyone who wants to try and crack it, go ahead, it would be a good lesson in cryptography, but I'll bet you money that it'll take you more that 2 days to do it, so in the end, it wont be unfair to anyone.

djcapelis

08-01-2004, 21:36

Mike Schroeder

08-01-2004, 21:38

all i have to say, is, if in the off chance, and i mean a major off chance, someone out there does crack it, keep it to yourselves, The kick off is a suprise i look forward to finding out ever year, AT KICK OFF, not on Cheifdelphi forums. it just doesnt make sense that anyone would want to acctually get the manual early, it takes all the fun out of the competition in my honest opinion

danielkitchener

08-01-2004, 22:11

Okay...my $.02
FIRST is all about the frantic 6 weeks of building, the eager anticipation of Kickoff Day, the suprise when you find out what evil challenges Dean, Dave, and co. have planned for us, etc. I know people that are actually losing sleep about it. Now, to ruin this is not within the spirit of FIRST. It's like sneakily unwrapping Christmas presents before it's time. It ruins the feeling of suprise and excitement. To many of us, kickoff day is just like Christmas.

Now, for the obvious phrase: GRACIOUS PROFESSIONALISM
It is the intention of FIRST to set all teams on an even playing field with regards to the challenges. They go out of their way to make sure that no one team has an advantage over the other with regard to competability of the robot. The only thing that determines winners is the ingenuity and creativity of the team's members. For those of you who may argue funding also determines this, may I point out that FIRST offers grants to teams, and also that it is nearly impossible, if you try hard enough, not to get enough sponsors to cover the money. If a team decides to crack the encryption, this goes against the whole idea of an even playing field. Teams should not try to UNFAIRLY gain an advantage over one another. The whole point of FIRST is to educate students and inspire them. FIRST is about teams helping one another out, not teams trying to gain an unfair advantage. FIRST is about "would you like to borrow a part because one of yours broke" or "can I help you with that," and not about "haha I have the manual and you don't" or "haha I have an advantage over you."

If any of you try to break into the encrypted documents or otherwise cheat, you clearly do not belong in the FIRST program.

Dan9874123

08-01-2004, 22:15

I agree fully, however, there's always a chance of an amature hacker breaking a cryptosystem... people can think up surprising ways around these things if dedicated.

Never say never. :)

That’s true, someone just mashing their keyboard and pressing enter could break the code. It would be really cool if they developed a program that checked in with the FIRST server and made the document time released. That would make it almost impossible to break it.

Mr. Ivey

08-01-2004, 22:41

Taking what I have learned from my team's mentors, and teachers, a student that is a member of FIRST is placed to a higher standard than others. He, or she, is expected to not do just what is right by society, but what is right morally, they are susposted to take on a responsability that is not expected, but choosen by them. And in taking this extra responsability, you must be accountable to it. While cracking into the manuals may give you an edge, no matter how small, do you think your team mates and mentors would be overjoyed and proud you did such a thing, or ashamed that they failed you, for not instilling a since of what is morally right and wrong. So to the members of 384 at least, let's not let down our sponsors, mentors, teachers, and Chainsaw. I also hope to all the others, that you will do the same for those who make your team happen.

Ivey

Anthony Kesich

08-01-2004, 22:44

http://www.freesklyarov.org/

Not illegal? I know it's not exactly the same thing, but Adobe is pretty protective of their PDF format and its encryption. I understand there are programs that allow 'password recovery,' but those are sold under the pretense you set the original password (or have a legally binding reason to obtain it otherwise), thus using one in this case would be quite illegal.

Not that I'm saying the DMCA should be done away with, but this is yet another example of how it is stifling technological development in the most advanced country in the world and the sole superpower. I mean, if the government is going to hinder technology, it should think of the impact it will have on the rest of the world. Unfortunately, where America goes, the world follows.

*end rant*

-Kesich

Adam Collet

08-01-2004, 22:59

I thought I'd add my comment just because a couple team memebers / mentor have suggested that I will be trying to break the darn thing. I don't think anyone was seriously, but still. I want the world to know I am one of the most (like all of us) avid FIRSTers out there, and I would never even BEGIN to *actually* consider attempting it. I will lash out in great rage at anyone that tries it. I look down upon anyone that suggests it as a mental challenge or game. Anyone that thinks they'd like a copy of the cracked manual (if it happened before Saturday, which I highly doubt) gets a very sad, very angry frown from me. All right, I'm done ranting. Peace.

Eric Brummer

08-01-2004, 23:03

... the title of this post is rather.... questionable, but how many people on these forums that consider themselves above average computer users DIDN'T consider the idea that... encryption is possible to circumvent. As soon as I heard about the early pdf release, my thought was, "i wonder what they are using to protect it." FIRST is made up of people that were once just like us or still are like us. We are a community of intellectuals that generally see a challenge and attempt to overcome it. Thats the very point of every game we play. Disregarding whether its allowed on the forums or not, cause that is solely up to the admins, I was wondering when this discussion would come up. The game is the game. I wouldn't, and I dont recall reading any post before mine that directly talked about using the information to gain an advantage. There were some various good arguments, for both sides, which I won't bother quoting cause their are way to many. I don't really see somethign wrong in discussing it. Yes, the rules pdf is the target of this discussion, because everyone here is apart of a community of FIRST robotics. We aren't a cryptology group, so the idea didn't come up until we had a specific problem dangled in front of us. Obviously the manual is gonna be what is talked about in regards to 128 bit RSA encryption. I also don't think anyone could possibly do it before the data would be available to everyone. FIRST has underestimated us in the past, in the game, and i believe they vowed to try and avoid it again. They arn't going to give us something easy. Just like my first thought was.. I wonder how to overcome the security, the first thought at FIRST had to have been... how long will this document last with all of these people eagerly interested in it? It's not gonna happen. I really dont think its so much someone who is a genius that could crack it. Like many things, its about having the connections. You don't need as much intelligence as you need access to high-end computer equipment and some basic cryptology information. I know I wouldn't use the information, its just an intersting thought, and as someone else said, something definilty to brag about, especially if achieved before the code is released. It would be very satisfactory to have cracked it regardless of whether u saw a single page inside that pdf. It isn't a big issue though, since it's not going to happen. I believe, and it's rather obvious with how many people cried foul to this thread, that people here do have the moral views to not ruin the gracious profesionalism that FIRST stands for. As far as it not being able to be cracked... I doubt it, but like everything, you never know. "Never say never."

miketwalker

08-01-2004, 23:26

Recently, FIRST was gettting a little upset about some of the activity on these boards, such as people trying to circumvent the rules.

There's nothing worse than when you try to help someone out and they take advantage of you. Along those lines, how about we not try and crack the manual and keep FIRST happy with all of us so they continue to do nice things for us in the future?

-Chris

I agree with Chris 10000%. I mean, the joking threads are perfectly fine imho, but if you do know something about the upcoming game.... please keep it to yourself. I'm positive some people know some parts of the game, but if they do know something... there's a reason behind that. When people get on things like ChiefDelphi, as someone said before... alot of people will see what YOU write. That's what's great about ChiefDelphi, you have your right to be heard and express yourself, but do it with respect to each other, and the league. You can have your "intellectual fun" with the manual decryption for all I care, but if you were to find the password... keep it that way... YOU find the password, not the entire CD community, or even your team for that matter.

Yes, kickoff is very exciting for us all... and I know I personally have put alot of time into writing my little "Introduction to Programming Guide" for FIRST, and I know that the people at FIRST have put MANY hours into planning this game. Sure it's fun to guess, but keep it that way... let others experience the surprise at kickoff. When you try to "crack the code" before the kickoff... your just not giving the credit to FIRST that you should.

Imagine that your building time is coming to an end, and then somebody were to go and release ALL of the work your team had done. The teams who got this material now have an advantage on you, because it's your work. Same scenario here, this is FIRST's "final week of building" They've worked for almost a year putting together everything for all of us to enjoy, the least we can do is wait till Saturday and enjoy whatever is presented before us.

I personally think this is the right time to put in my thanks to all of the FIRST employees and all groups that help support our program... as teammates we often get too into the craze of competition and forget that this wouldn't happen without so many dedicated people. On these forums, there are so many people that we see working all of the time to try to help teams out, and just overall good people. To everyone who does that, thanks.

Anthony Kesich

08-01-2004, 23:37

Just like my first thought was.. I wonder how to overcome the security, the first thought at FIRST had to have been... how long will this document last with all of these people eagerly interested in it? It's not gonna happen. I really dont think its so much someone who is a genius that could crack it. Like many things, its about having the connections. You don't need as much intelligence as you need access to high-end computer equipment and some basic cryptology information. I know I wouldn't use the information, its just an intersting thought, and as someone else said, something definilty to brag about, especially if achieved before the code is released. It would be very satisfactory to have cracked it regardless of whether u saw a single page inside that pdf.

If you want to crack an encryption, close your eyes, and smash gibberish into the keyboard and then try to decrypt it, don't do something that may throw of the balance of FIRST. I know you are not being malicious, and nobody would really try, and that cracking RSA 128 is quite impressive, but do it in a way that will not harm anyone. Heck, the people at FIRST are smart. Maybe they embedded some sort of algarithm to notify them if it is opened before kickoff the next time the person connects to the internet. Who knows? A challenge in trust maybe?

-Kesich

P.S. You just said "never."