*4 multiplier? *8!??!? [Archive]

Mike Rush

10-01-2004, 17:41

Trinora

10-01-2004, 17:44

...Yes.

GregTheGreat

10-01-2004, 17:45

in 4.3.1 Definitions
CAPPING – A LARGE ball is considered to be CAPPING a goal if it is SUPPORTED by the goal poles and/or SCORED SMALL Balls.

in 4.4.1 Scoring

<G02> a LARGE ball CAPPING a goal doubles the SMALL balls SCORED within that goal.

Does this meaan if you can support the three large yellow balls on one goal only supported by the goal poles and/or the scored small balls that it would be a 8 multiplier??

I think that as of now the rule states that this can be done (I haven't looked at the manual throughly enough to make a full judgement).

HOWEVER...

FIRST will probabally state that the maximum multiplier can be 2X.... If not I think that every team will be trying to stuff all the "big balls" in the goals.

-Greg The Great

353Pobots

10-01-2004, 17:57

I do not believe the goals are large enough to hold a larege ball inside of them. During kickoff they showed a goal with little balls but still covered with the large ball. Also in the manual section 3(the arena) it has a picture of the goals toped with the large balls. The goals are empty so i figure the goals must be around 25 inches in diameter. So you are not able to have more than 2x multiplier in one goal. Also I believe the 2x multiplier only works once in multiplying the small balls.

BandChick

10-01-2004, 17:58

i think if this were allowed then, yes, it would be possible, but not propable. from the video feed it's pretty obvious that once a few smaller balls are in the goals it's hard or near impossible to fit more than one BIG ball in the goal.

abeD

10-01-2004, 18:05

I interpreted it as that if you have small balls in the stationary goal with a 2x ball on top the points in that goal get doubled, and if u have a 2x ball on top of the movable goal the points in there will be doubled.

353Pobots

10-01-2004, 18:08

If you have a 2X multiplier on 2 different goals...then the points in one goal is doubled, and the points in the other is doubled. Not both of them added then quadrupled. Still the large ball doesn't fit inside of the goal, even the stationary ones with the lowered front.

Squeaky

10-01-2004, 18:13

Im pretty sure that this isn't possible. I've read the manual and the goals have a diameter of 28" whereas the 2x ball has a diameter of 30". Yes the pvc is a little bit flexible but you aren't going to be able to balance a second 2x ball on top of the first without touching it (which it wouldn't count anyway). I don't think there will be a rule that says anything about it being considered a 4x or 8x goal, but i don't think it's possible.

Munkaboo

10-01-2004, 18:15

353Pobots

10-01-2004, 18:18

If you did hold it so it balances ontop of the first 2x multiplier, the one you are touching becomes a part of your robot, for the time being. If I'm not mistaken this would in turn make the other 2x multiplier a part as well, and if this is the case, both 2x multipliers become non-countable. Also, the pvc is only flexable at the top, you cant flex it where it is held in place, so the pvc is only flexable for about a quater of it. It isn't even flexable enough for the ball to go in.

GregTheGreat

10-01-2004, 18:21

Here might be a way... I have not checked the exact demensions yet so if it is "measurably impossible" just ignore this.

Note: I did it in paint in less then 2 minutes.... no time for photoshop in this fast paced day of ChiefDelphi.

Lil' Lavery

10-01-2004, 18:21

My team had a discussion about this earlier today, and we came to the conclusion that it isnt possible. The yellow bals must be supported by the goal and SCORING purple balls. In order to be scoring it must be supported by the goal or other scoring purple balls. So you couldnt have purple balls on top of a yellow ball then other yellow balls on them. Plus Yellow Balls can only be supported by 1 goal, so you cant "bridge" them to double 2 goals. In order for the yellow balls to be counted as capping it can only be supported by 1 goal and scoring purple balls, so therefore you cant get a 4,6, or 8x mult.
Note:FIRST will probably release a rules change that clarifies this.

Lil' Lavery

10-01-2004, 18:23

Also the yellow balls do NOT fit into the goals without causing them to flex outwards. Anyway, i think even if it were possible the wording would mean it would be 6x mult not an 8. It doubles the balls scored not the points of the balls scored.

Lil' Lavery

10-01-2004, 18:26

4.3.1 Definitions
SCORED – A SMALL ball is SCORED when it is contained within a goal or SUPPORTED only by the goal and/or other SCORED SMALL balls. A ball is not considered SCORED if it is touching a ROBOT of that alliance or is SUPPORTED by a structural part of the field other than the goal.

CAPPING – A LARGE ball is considered to be CAPPING a goal if it is SUPPORTED by the goal poles and/or SCORED SMALL Balls. A LARGE ball is not considered to be CAPPING a goal if it is touching an alliance ROBOT (of that goal’s color) or is SUPPORTED by more than one goal or a structural part of the field.

iCHiMaHoCV

10-01-2004, 18:27

353Pobots

10-01-2004, 18:32

The stationary goals are has a diameter of 28 inches. The pvc piping is 2 inches thick. The has the 28 inch diameter as well.(3.2.2.2 and 3.2.3). Now the large ball is inflated to 30 inch diameter. That doesn't fit in the goal.

iCHiMaHoCV

10-01-2004, 18:35

Yes, but the back three or four pvc pipes are taller then the front three and they appeared to have been able to bend more easily, you could then have the robot "stuff" the 2x multiplier into the goal, thus causing the taller pvc piping to bend backwards, but it would require a lot of strength and it probably wouldn't work too well.

tkwetzel

10-01-2004, 18:35

You could place two large balls on the stationary goals, because the pvc is of two different lengths. One ball in one of those goals will stick out, but not as far as the 8" tall pvc, so you could support a second and possibly third on the first tellow ball and the 8" tall pvc. However, a capping ball may not be supported by a large ball, so it would not count for extra points.

GregTheGreat

10-01-2004, 18:35

I think that you wouldn't be able to put the 2x multiplier ball in any of the goals because if you noticed in the kick-off video the 2x multiplier ball stuck out a LOT when it was capping the two goals. Unless you can find a way to squash it with a lot of force into the larger goal then it might be possible, but that would probably be more trouble then its worth.

I just try to analize every possibility.... the more knowelge the better.... You never know a magic ball stuffing machine might be seen at a regional... especally with how many teams there are this year.... and so so many aspects of the '04 game.

-Greg The Great

353Pobots

10-01-2004, 18:36

I don't believe the piping will bend as much as you think. 2 inch pvc doesn't bend as easy as you think.

tkwetzel

10-01-2004, 18:39

iCHiMaHoCV

10-01-2004, 18:40

Maybe you're right, but I'm just going off of what I saw on the broadcast. Because when the human players were shooting at the stationary goal those 5 point balls were making the pvc pipes flop around quite a bit...who knows, maybe some teams will take this direction and we will see this at regional. It will be interesting if it works too! Except it would limit the amount of points the opposing team can get...

Lil' Lavery

10-01-2004, 18:43

It doesnt matter if you can stuff it in there or not, it doesnt count as capping, therefor wont score you more points. Look at the definitions.

353Pobots

10-01-2004, 18:44

The PVC does not need to bend to support all three large balls. The rear PVC on the stationary goals appears to stick out about 3-4" above one large ball capping that goal. This means you could place the other large balls between this PVC and the first large ball capping that goal.

The stationary goals have a 8 foot back and a 6 foot front. Now the ball is a 30 inch diameter(2 1/2 feet). If the ball is 6 inches more than the difference of heigh in the pvc, then the pvc can't stick out above the large ball, even if it bends a little.

Jake177

10-01-2004, 18:48

Originally posted by 353Pobots
If you did hold it so it balances ontop of the first 2x multiplier, the one you are touching becomes a part of your robot, for the time being.
When I read this rule I couldn't help but think that it came out of something that happened to us at the New England Regional in 2001. Our bot was in the endzone, holding onto a large ball. We then fell over and the end of our arm crossed over the pipe on the perimeter of the field. :ahh: Fortunately the ball supported the end of our arm so that we were not touching the floor outside of the field. After about 5 minutes of looking through the rules, the judges decided that we weren't out of bounds, since no part of the bot was touching outside of the field, and they awarded us the 10 points for being in the endzone. Of course, now the ball would be considered part of the bot and we wouldn't have received the points.

tkwetzel

10-01-2004, 18:56

The stationary goals have a 8 foot back and a 6 foot front. Now the ball is a 30 inch diameter(2 1/2 feet). If the ball is 6 inches more than the difference of heigh in the pvc, then the pvc can't stick out above the large ball, even if it bends a little.

353Pobots, You have not accounted for the amount of the ball that sits inside the goal when placed on top.

IrisLab

10-01-2004, 21:49

At the Man. Kickoff today after the NASA telecast, a few mentors stuffed three yellow (30") balls into one scoring goal. Enough room at the bottom for about 4 small balls. If those at the bottom are yellow (4x10=40) and you have a (6x or 8x) multipler, the score would be 240 or 320 respectively.

We asked Woody about this situation and he was unable to clarify. Essentially, FIRST will need to issue a clarification on this issue.

The 30" balls will squeeze into the goals but they flex the tubing.

Ken Loyd

10-01-2004, 21:50

Dear Readers,

I rank Mike Rush right behind Dean and Woodie and 1 step ahead of Dave. If it is made legal to get three yellow balls in a goal, Mike will find a way!

Ken Loyd
Team 64

iCHiMaHoCV

10-01-2004, 21:51

Was there a lot of pressure when trying to push to balls down that deep? I would imagine there was...

Bduggan04

10-01-2004, 22:00

Why would would you want to put all three of them in a single goal. 3 Large Balls = 90" into a 96" goal (assuming you could get them there). Then say you could even manage to get 4 13" 5pt balls in that 6" space. You would have a score of 160. It seems much easier to get 16 little balls in and put one large ball on top. It also seems like you would be more likely to do it (or come close) in the time frame given.

Dave...

10-01-2004, 22:15

The FIRST manual and Dave Lavery both mention to look more at the intention of the rules and not so much the nit picky details. From that perspective, my interpretation is that the game designers wanted a single 2X ball to cap a goal. The 30" ball is larger than the 28" diameter of all the goals, and would normally allow for only 1 large ball to be placed on top.

"CAPPING - A LARGE ball is considered to be CAPPING a goal if it is SUPPORTED by the goal poles and/or SCORED SMALL Balls. ..."

This part of the definition would stand to reason that a large ball touching another large ball would not count.

Yeah, yeah, I know that a large ball could be stuffed in the goal, several more small balls placed above it, and then a second large ball could be placed on top. Technically this second ball isn't touching the first large ball stuffed in the goal, but it certainly is not what the game planners had in mind.

Common sense approach should help in determining this year's game and objectives. At least this year we don't have to deal with "What constitutes a STACK?" :D

353Pobots

10-01-2004, 23:18

Now here's the big thing, what happens if they allow this to occur, and while your pushing a big ball into the goal and times runs out while touching the large ball...according to the rules, the ball is an extention of your robot...does this mean anything touching after that is an extention?

Aignam

10-01-2004, 23:31

I think we should all use common sense and interpret the FIRST rules how they were meant to be interpreted rather than looking for obscure means of cheating the system.

Rickertsen2

10-01-2004, 23:43

I think we should all use common sense and interpret the FIRST rules how they were meant to be interpreted rather than looking for obscure means of cheating the system.

The FIRST manual and Dave Lavery both mention to look more at the intention of the rules and not so much the nit picky details. From that perspective, my interpretation is that the game designers wanted a single 2X ball to cap a goal. The 30" ball is larger than the 28" diameter of all the goals, and would normally allow for only 1 large ball to be placed on top.

"CAPPING - A LARGE ball is considered to be CAPPING a goal if it is SUPPORTED by the goal poles and/or SCORED SMALL Balls. ..."

This part of the definition would stand to reason that a large ball touching another large ball would not count.

Yeah, yeah, I know that a large ball could be stuffed in the goal, several more small balls placed above it, and then a second large ball could be placed on top. Technically this second ball isn't touching the first large ball stuffed in the goal, but it certainly is not what the game planners had in mind.

Common sense approach should help in determining this year's game and objectives. At least this year we don't have to deal with "What constitutes a STACK?" :D

I completely agree with both of you. Anyway, not only is this ridiculous, but not really possible. We had a "budget field" at our kickoff, and i will tell you that will simply not fit. The PVC will snap long before you stuff two balls into one of those goals.

Amanda 179

11-01-2004, 10:00

we discussed this last night also and from the video and a little mini playing field we bult last night it seems like you wouldnt be able to fi more than one on a moveable goal,but the stationary goals have that extra two feet of back board and if the fist yellow ball (the one placed first) was fit the right way then just maybe a second ball could be placed, i dont se the third ball being able to fit with out altering it or the goal in the way where it would be against the rules. its more of a blancing act then.

353Pobots

11-01-2004, 10:06

It still doesn't matter. The big ball multiplier only multiplies the small ball score...not the small balls multiplied. Two large balls in one goal will do nothing.

Amanda 179

11-01-2004, 10:15

say if you had 3 purple balls in the stationary goal, with 1 multiplier ball on top
2 * 15 = 30 but if you had 2 multiplier balls then this could be counted twice. making it 60, because it would still be on top of the point balls, I'm not saying this is what my team is planning on doing I'm just curious on how the other teams are thinking because the game always ends up being defensive

353Pobots

11-01-2004, 10:17

The rules say that caping is the large ball being supported by only smaller balls(purple or yellow) and the pvc goal. It doesn't say it can be supported by the other large ball. Also it says that the 2x multiplier ball only multiplys the score of the small balls. It doesn't say it can multiply the small balls already multiplied again.

Amanda 179

11-01-2004, 10:24

but it would be supported by the pvc, you cant balance one large ball on top of the other without the support of the pvc, and yes the rules dont say it could count the balls twice nor does it say it will, this is what i have been questioning from the start.

RBrandy

11-01-2004, 11:03

"CAPPING – A LARGE ball is considered to be CAPPING a goal if it is SUPPORTED by the goal poles and/or SCORED SMALL Balls."

"The rules say that caping is the large ball being supported by only smaller balls(purple or yellow) and the pvc goal. It doesn't say it can be supported by the other large ball. Also it says that the 2x multiplier ball only multiplys the score of the small balls. It doesn't say it can multiply the small balls already multiplied again." -353Pobots

I completly agree with 353Pobots. The 2X ball serves as a CAP, meaning you cannot put more in, unless you took the cap off. Remember, they said use common sence. I asked the same question in our teams meeting, and the idea was shot down quickly.

353Pobots

11-01-2004, 11:06

I feel they are using words to their real meaning this year as they pointed out with straddling the line at the start. They intend to mean by caping is covering off, stopping anymore points from being scored in that goal. Like you put a cap on a bottle, would you put 2 caps on one bottle? No you wouldn't. This game isn't as deep as most people are hoping for to play around with.

Wetzel

11-01-2004, 11:55

For people who are asking why bother. Because it would be cool is a good enough answer for. Also, because it is hard.

For those who are saying it can't be done, people also said that 4 balls couldn't be done in 2001.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/pictures.php?s=&action=single&picid=438&direction=DESC&sort=date&perrow=4&trows=3&quiet=Verbose.

As for the rules, I think the intent with the term "capping" was closing it. When you cap something, you cover it.
To apply the finishing touch to; complete
To cover, protect, or seal with a cap

It also is specificly said that it can not be supported by more then one goal.
SUPPORTED – If the “supporting object” is removed, the ball would not remain SCORED or CAPPED and/or the ROBOT would not remain HANGING.

So I would make the intent to be stick them on top to finnish it, but nothing about 2 caps. But if you remove the first large ball, if the second would not be scoreing, then it dosn't count. So if you shove one down with another on top, they both have to be supported by the goal. As to what the score would do at that point, I think we will need either an update from FIRST, or wait to see what the refs at the first regional this happens at do.

Wetzel

Jake Lewis

11-01-2004, 13:47

the diameter of the goals is 28", and the diameter of the 2X balls is 34". Since the goals are made of pvc, and it can bend, you might be able to shove one big ball down into the goal, and balance another on top, but it could be hard to get the first ball down into the goal far enough. also, this wouldd leave less room for purple balls in the bottom...

Amanda 179

12-01-2004, 17:22

even if they dont count it, it would be a good tatic becuase the way the stationary goals are placed, i just want to know the final rule so i can figure out what other teams might do during the game. last year First clearly stated that you could not break the boxes and my team designed for this, and as anyone who went to any competion knows that the box breaking was over looked, i dont want this to be a repeat.

Lil' Lavery

12-01-2004, 17:32

Note that even though it doesnt say that it cant be supported by a large ball it says the small balls it is supported by must be SCORED small balls, therefore they can only be supported by other SCORED small balls and the goal, so you cant sandwhich them between the yellow balls. If you did you would get 2x(4x...)0, which is still 0. Also the balls are 34" diameter inflated to only 30". so they might be squishy enough to be forced into the pvc, although it wouldnt matter because it doesnt count as capping. And to all those who rate dave below any1 other than dean and woody.....
well my opinion may be biased because im his son and the more glory he has, the more reflective glory i have. :D :p