Ball or Bar

[LBK Rules]

Well, we haven't decided wich one we will do.

So, how about you people?

[HolyMasamune]

from our discussions so far, our most popular robot is going to be one that can hang on the bar at the end while having some sort of bulldozing arm that can easily gather balls

[kevin.li.rit]

From our 3 hour discussion yesterday we seem to be leaning on a ball collector and a 2x ball graber.

[Cory]

hang+grab 2x

[KenWittlief]

figure out how many points each function on your bot can potentially earn you, or how much 'time' each function can buy you in auton mode

and the priorities will JUMP OUT at you

triggering the ball release - gathering for your HP - controlling the 2X - moving the porta-goal - climbing the stair and hanging

^ how much time, and how many points for each function?

(you do the math :^)

[Enslaved]

Hmm...Well, the Diamond Eagles will be done the deciding by Tuesday
But I'm in for hanging on the bar!
50 points= 10 5-point balls!
That is a huge amount, however, as I do see it, not everyone is going to have the capability to incorporate hanging their robot in their design!

The 2x ball is also important, bearing the fact that you have something in the basket..LoL!

Well...let's see what we decide, but I do hope we come up with something about hanging on the bar!

[Jessica Boucher]

figure out how many points each function on your bot can potentially earn you, or how much 'time' each function can buy you in auton mode

and the priorities will JUMP OUT at you

triggerind the ball release - gathering for your HP - controlling the 2X - moving the prota-goal - climbing the stair and hanging

^ how much time, and how many points for each function?

(you do the math :^)


I agree that there are certain priorities, but not every team can and should be doing the same thing. The beautiful thing about alliances is that the robots should compliment eachother....and having complimentary designs will yield higher scores than a robot that has all its priorities straight.

It's all about perception. :)

[KenWittlief]

Jessica has a good point

during the qualifying rounds getting high scores on both sides will be important

but during the elimination rounds, winning is (almost) everything - and for these rounds the top seeding teams get to choose their alliance partners

so if you dont think you can build a complex machine that will place you high in the qualification rounds

you might want to focus on building the perfect alliance machine, that will complement the ones who are most likely to win those top 8 spots.

Its all about strategery! :^)

[Aignam]

Jessica has a good point

during the qualifying rounds getting high scores on both sides will be important

but during the elimination rounds, winning is (almost) everything - and for these rounds the top seeding teams get to choose their alliance partners

so if you dont think you can build a complex machine that will place you high in the qualification rounds

you might want to focus on building the perfect alliance machine, that will complement the ones who are most likely to win those top 8 spots.

Its all about strategery! :^)
Like I've said before, there are 2 types of robots. The ones that will score high but not win every match because their means of winning is far too risky, and the robots that will win every match, but win it with a low score. The former will be the ones picking their alliance partners. The latter will be the ones being picked because they ensure victory.

[KenWittlief]

...robots that will win every match, but win it with a low score. (These) will be the ones picking their alliance partners.

dont be too sure - if you take a trash and burn approach, and you lose only one match, then you will be near the bottom of the second tier - probabally not in the top 8

and if many teams take the trash and burn approach to the game, then there will be more than 8 teams inthe top tier, esp at larger regionals or the championship

if you shoot for a high score you have a good chance of winning all your matches - and if you are busy scoring you wont have time to prevent the other team from scoring.

[tatsak42]

He said "former" meaning the robots that can score a lot, some of the time..

[KenWittlief]

that isnt right then, cause if you can in fact win all your matches, you will be in the top tier, and teams the get high scores, but lose a few matches, wont be.

If you can guarentee you can win every match, then you will be in the top tier - but you dont know where you will be in it, depending on how much you deprive the other team of scoring

I guess we were saying the same thing - Im just brain dead today :^)

For this season focusing on being able to score appears to be the winning strategery. If you can score for your alliance, you can also score points for a weak opponent.

[Aignam]

My main idea there was that if you have a robot that will win every match, even if by a relatively low score, then scores and standings do not matter, because you will certainly be picked for the elimination rounds. And if you do win every match, you will probably be one of the first picks during the elimination rounds because what more valuable a partner than one that can guaruntee a victory?

[Joe Matt]

My lips, are sealed by a NDA (j/k :p ), but this year we are focusing one two things.

[KenWittlief]

try some nail polish remover, and pry on your lips with a crowbar :c)

[Anthony Kesich]

The way i see it is you need to priortize. To be competitive, a robot must be fairly fast and manuverable, able to push balls, do the autonomous, and have ONE specialty which they do extremely well. Trying to grab the multiplier, grab the bar, put the multiplier back on, gather in a special way AND grab goals will net you with a complex robot that can do everything average. Which would you choose, a guy who can do everything, but not very well, or the guy that can push the balls around for the first 1:30 then ALWAYS end up hanging on the bar for the extra 50?

-Kesich

[kevin.li.rit]

Your definitely right, doing one thing well is extremely important. If you focus on doing too many things you won't be able to do anything effectively to win a match or be considered for drafting. If you do one thing well teams will probably look for two different robots each with it's own specialty or two robots that do the same thing very well for consistency.

[Anthony Kesich]

Exactly. That both destroyed us and sved us last year (yet another conundrum). WE had an arm that sucked, and we tried to use it, but it was just ignoring KISS. But we were able to take it off and become an awsome dozer with an autonomous that worked like a charm (except for when the older teams asked us to delay ours and then theirs screwed up.... uggh). But we learned that doing one thing very well pays off, when we dont runing it by adding more :-D.

-Kesich

[Korbin]

The way that I see things is this: A lot of people are going to go for the bar, and not do it well, like staking last year. but the most commmon robot will be a tank with wings that pushes balls around. so if you are looking to be a good bot to compliment others, and get picked in a good seed then you will need to consistantly be able to control the 2x balls, or always get on the bar. i am predicting that the good vets will go for the bar, and get it, and be in the top seeds, so they are going to want someone that can handle the 2x balls really well.

[Anthony Kesich]

I really think that the game is going to be won or lost based on the bar. I mean, look at the scores in the human games, they were what, in the 70-100 point range? And thats with people who can do what they want, pretend they have all the equipment and all the little gadgets on their "arms" and can throw a rope over the bar (fyi, with a max velocity of 10ft/sec (using it as initial velocity) you apex at just over 3 feet up (3 and 3/16th feet to be precise), so projectile are worthless anyways. But what I am saying is that inj this game, i believe 50 will be tremendous, like being on the ramp was last year.

-Kesich

[Korbin]

well that is what the team needs to deside when designing their robot, will the bar be like staking last year, or like king of the hill?

[Bcahn836]

Both, I have an idea and it just might be crazy enough to work.

[Anthony Kesich]

I see the doubler as more like stacking.

Bchan, could you elaborate? Unless its a probable team design, then by all mean, keep it to your team untill you can be sure most everyone has their plans set.

-Kesich

[Garrix]

I believe handling the large 2x ball can be more advantageous than simply hanging, but the score is dependant on your shooters. You can get alot of balls in your mobile goal if you push it up to the driver station, and have a tall human player to "lift" the balls over the station and into the goal. After that you can cap the goal off with a 2x ball to get a substantial score.

And you can use your 2x ball handling arm to disrupt the people who try to hang. :D As I see it, if the arm is underneath them, providing some measure of support, then their points wouldn't count.

[Korbin]

the shots are not hard to make, if the team can afford making a goal, and the human player practices then it should not be a problem

[Joe Matt]

IMHO, hanging will take time to happen. In that time many things can change.

Get my drift? ;)

[Mike Norton]

If you look at it. Auto mode is very important. Get the 2X Ball drag the goal under the balls and then wait for the 45 sec to release the balls. Balls will fall into the goal nobody can touch the balls already in the goals.

About hanging. This was fun to watch a couple of years ago when we had to hang. I would say only 30% of the people could hang the rest tried but couldn't.

This year, it is a lot higher and harder to get to. I am betting a lot of robots are going to be flipped over. Once again when we had the puck only 25% could get up onto it fast enough to be able to keep other off.

Look at when we had to get a big ball and put it onto the goal that was on the ramp. Only a few teams that could do this fast enough to be good. I would say only about 50% of those teams could do this and only 10% could do it fast.

SO after all that I would say the best robot will in the auto mode take the 2X ball push the goal to were when the balls drop the balls will fall into it. Once they get control, to be able to get up onto the top platform and control it. Then cap the goal at the end and hang.

I can see that it will come to a lot of hitting on top of the platform. Make your robot to be hit and hit often up there.

[Garrix]

In addition to having a 2x ball handling arm, having a sturdy tethering type system to use and block your opponent's ball corrals could be a beneficial strategy if you have an adequate ally. Although this won't give you much by way of scoring.

For the human player, just recruit your school's Varsity point guard. :D

[abeD]

The shooting gaurd is probably gonna be better :D hehe

[Chris Fultz]

If you look at it. Auto mode is very important. Get the 2X Ball drag the goal under the balls and then wait for the 45 sec to release the balls. Balls will fall into the goal nobody can touch the balls already in the goals.

We need a rule clarification, but the book says small balls can only be scored by a human player. It also says small balls cannot be scored by a robot. There is no clarification of what happens to a ball that ends up falling or bouncing into a goal as it leaves the storage box.

It might be considered OK if it is unintentional, but not acceptable if a goal is placed so that balls fall directly into it.

[Garrix]

If you look at it. Auto mode is very important. Get the 2X Ball drag the goal under the balls and then wait for the 45 sec to release the balls. Balls will fall into the goal nobody can touch the balls already in the goals.

About hanging. This was fun to watch a couple of years ago when we had to hang. I would say only 30% of the people could hang the rest tried but couldn't.

This year, it is a lot higher and harder to get to. I am betting a lot of robots are going to be flipped over. Once again when we had the puck only 25% could get up onto it fast enough to be able to keep other off.

Look at when we had to get a big ball and put it onto the goal that was on the ramp. Only a few teams that could do this fast enough to be good. I would say only about 50% of those teams could do this and only 10% could do it fast.

SO after all that I would say the best robot will in the auto mode take the 2X ball push the goal to were when the balls drop the balls will fall into it. Once they get control, to be able to get up onto the top platform and control it. Then cap the goal at the end and hang.

I can see that it will come to a lot of hitting on top of the platform. Make your robot to be hit and hit often up there.

Putting the goal underneath the balls is a very good idea, but remember, they are like kickballs, and are very bouncy, so not all of them will make it in.

I see hanging as two challenges within itself. First you actually have to get onto the platform successfully which would require a modified drive system and possibly some size limitations to get past the stationary goal, and then you have to hang from the 10ft bar, which is an even greater challenge.

Hanger bots won't be as effective as ball bots because a hanger bot will need time to maneuver onto the ramp, it will have to fight other bots, and then intiate the hanging process. That'll take perhaps 30-40 seconds, that could be better spent herding balls to the human player and placing 2x balls on the goals.

If you had a 2x ball bot, I would suggest to avoid the ramp area completely and focus on a good auto mode, an excellent 2x ball arm, and perhaps some device that could double as a bulldozer or ball corral blocker.

Has anyone ever considered pushing your opponent's small balls out of the playing field?

[srjjs]

Everyone uses the same small balls, so that wouldn't help too much. I think the best way to keep your opponent from scoring is to block their corrals.

[Solace]

why is everyone assuming that you have to be on top of the platform in order to grab the bar?

[that1guy]

are team has an awesome idea so we can do all of them relativly easy. :cool:

[MichalSkiba]

The bar will always yield 50 points IF your robot can latch an has consulted Jenny Craig prior to your regional. Shooting gaurds can only shoot as many balls as they are fed, and they can do it in bursts. We estimated that it will take 5-6 seconds to fire, aim and reload.

Bots that can place 2x multip. ontop of the goal will only win if they have [many] more balls in then thier bar grabbing opponents. They will require more time to manipulate and place thier target then bar grabbers would require to latch and pull up. This means less time to gather balls.

Well, we'll have to wait and see [Team 854's solution :D ].

[M. Hicken]

we are not 100% sure yet, but each of us is theorizing. I have a design that can do all 3, this way, if out partner can only do one, we can do the other
but we have to keep weight and time of operation involded

[KenWittlief]

it takes a lot more horsepower to lift your robot than it does to lift the 2X ball, so you can move the 2X ball around faster than you can lift your bot

if you have at least 11 of the 52 balls on the field in your goal - then you will get more points by capping your goal than you will by hanging yourself

plus you can uncap your opponets goal with the same device

[roboticscom13]

Bottom line all of the games in the past (this one is no exception), comes down to one thing.....consistancy. If you look back at the past games the teams that won, (championchips, regioals, etc.) were robots that were consistant every time. Wildstangs were consistantly on the ramp right after autonomous and controlled the basic end result of the game. If your robot is not consistant then you will be playing the games by the skin of your teeth. I have learned this throughout the four years i have been involved.

SO.... what it comes down to is, if you can do the SAME thing time after time, whatever your design might be, you will be successful.

[KenWittlief]

you will be successfull at doing what your bot was designed to do

but if you pick the wrong thing to design it to do, you might, for example, consistanly be able to hang in every match

and still lose every match.

[kevin.li.rit]

you will be successfull at doing what your bot was designed to do

but if you pick the wrong thing to design it to do, you might, for example, consistanly be able to hang in every match

and still lose every match.


You may get drafted though, last year the teams that crushed the other team ended up scoring low and not making it to the top 8 but they were drafted for finals.

[roboticscom13]

You may get drafted though, last year the teams that crushed the other team ended up scoring low and not making it to the top 8 but they were drafted for finals.

exactly my point :]

[MichalSkiba]

A serious point for all teams:

Don't plan for doing everything. Thats what we did last year. We were able to do everything, but not one thing well, and that became our weak point. Additionally, when teams looked for alliance partners, they wanted a bot that could perform a complementing function. My suggestion, if you are looking for a challange, is to design a bot that can do one thing VERY well, EVERY time without a doubt, and then try to incorperate additional functions.

[abeD]

You may get drafted though, last year the teams that crushed the other team ended up scoring low and not making it to the top 8 but they were drafted for finals.


Well only problem is that they are completely different games (this year much more offense than defense). In this game it isnt so easy to "crush" your opponents as it was last year. I beleive that most of good teams will all score a high number of points and play defense by playing offense...

[kevin.li.rit]

Well only problem is that they are completely different games (this year much more offense than defense). In this game it isnt so easy to "crush" your opponents as it was last year. I beleive that most of good teams will all score a high number of points and play defense by playing offense...

You'll definitley get some crushing during the finals though.

[kevin.li.rit]

A serious point for all teams:

Don't plan for doing everything. Thats what we did last year. We were able to do everything, but not one thing well, and that became our weak point. Additionally, when teams looked for alliance partners, they wanted a bot that could perform a complementing function. My suggestion, if you are looking for a challange, is to design a bot that can do one thing VERY well, EVERY time without a doubt, and then try to incorperate additional functions.

Your definitely right, doing one thing well is extremely important. If you focus on doing too many things you won't be able to do anything effectively to win a match or be considered for drafting. If you do one thing well teams will probably look for two different robots each with it's own specialty or two robots that do the same thing very well for consistency.

We seem to think alike. :)

[KenWittlief]

I agree - the is not much you can do to crush your opponent this year - you cant descore their goals (like you could descore containers last year)

you cant stop your opponent from having its 6 starting balls

its unlikely you will be able to play keepaway with all three 2X balls

you cant stop the balls from dropping at T=45

and if someone has a quick and effective ball collector, you wont be able to stop them from zipping all over the field and collecting them, or delivering them to one side or the other - soon as you make a dash for the bar, the corral will be open

in fact, once you are up on the bar, it would be hard to stop someone else from grabbing it too. its what? 10 feet wide?

[Marygrace]

We are going to...or we plan to hang on the bar at the end and pick up the multiplier ball. We aren't going to collect the smaller balls but we are goin to herd them, and we haven't really discussed picking up the 10pt ball, (Personally, i dont think it is that crucial)

[Wetzel]

The shooting gaurd is probably gonna be better :D hehe

Actually, get a halfback. At Mancester, Jason Morrella shot basketball style and missed alot, and the lady on the other side did soccer throw-in style, and made 99% of them.


As for 116, we are looking into having our robot grab two 2x balls and retain them durring autonomus time, as well as knocking 2 of the 10 point balls from one side back onto our side of the field. There will also be a herding feature so we can scour the other side of balls. We would be draging our goal behind us, and grab the other goal on the way to the other side. We would then feed the human players all the small balls, then drive and move goals some as nessicary. We would also have the ability to hang from the bar and put a 2x on top of either stationary goal.


Wetzel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Can YOUR robot do that?

[KenWittlief]

yeah but can your robot make popcorn too?

[Wetzel]

yeah but can your robot make popcorn too?

Unfortunatly, some functionality had to be sacraficed to make room for the doughnut warmer.

I wish we could have eveything, but we decided that it would be easier to just bring a microwave again.

Wetzel

[Celestial Rain]

As for 116, we are looking into having our robot grab two 2x balls and retain them durring autonomus time, as well as knocking 2 of the 10 point balls from one side back onto our side of the field. There will also be a herding feature so we can scour the other side of balls. We would be draging our goal behind us, and grab the other goal on the way to the other side. We would then feed the human players all the small balls, then drive and move goals some as nessicary. We would also have the ability to hang from the bar and put a 2x on top of either stationary goal.


Wetzel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Can YOUR robot do that?[/QUOTE]

That is actually a lot of things to do. But I am wondering wat would happen if u are on the same side that another robot will come in from the other side. plus, having a robot do all those functions is quite a lot. Shouldnt it be better to just concentrate on the ball. I have been studying the layout of the lower and upper deck. It is possible to ram the lower deck and get over it. But to reach the upper deck is quite difficult because of the 1 ft difference to the upper deck. Just something i had in mind

[Anthony Kesich]

i take it the sarcasm was missed.

[Wetzel]

i take it the sarcasm was missed.

What sarcasam?
We would like our robot to be able to do everything.


Wetzel
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Youthful optimisim.
:cool:

[nuggetsyl]

Why waste you time pickin up balls when noone will let you score them????

[Crop-Circles]

In (Zone Zeal), the (small balls) were dependent on your robots (goal) control. If your robot could control the (goals), your opponents (ball control) was meaningless. Throw in the added option of ending the game (in your home zone), and you control the entire match.

In (Stack Attack), the (stacks) were dependent on your robots (bin) control. If your robot could control the (bins), your opponents (stacking capabilty) was meaningless. Throw in the added option of ending the game (on the ramp), and you control the entire match.

In (First Frenzy), the (2x balls) are dependent on your robots (small ball) control. If your robot can control the (small balls), your opponents (goal capping) is meaningless. Throw in the added option of ending the game (on the bar), and you control the entire match.

I think people are underestimating small ball control. By controlling small balls, you essentialy control the entire match.

-Mike B.

[Ryan Dognaux]

For those still looking for ideas, I suggest the 710 match from 2001 -

http://cb2003.cyberblue234.com/downloads/2001_wild_mwr_710.mpeg

[Rasta]

Ball control. small and large. Its a winning combination when you factor in how easy it is to stop BOTH of your opponents from hanging by dominating the platform. that will screw 100 points out of your opponents without the use of any special add on to your robot. collecting small balls and capping it is good points that your opponent can't defend against too much.

[Sachiel7]

Well, I'll go ahead and post it in this thread. I'm glad to see that this year everyone's not so "Don't Tell!" and more "Let's share ideas"

We're focusing mainly on 2 things: Balls. And Balls.

We're pulling alot of our designs from last year's bot, but heavily modified, with some new additions. We're shooting for:
-Herding small balls
-Working with the 2X balls on the movable goals
-Grabbing goals (<That one's a peice of cake, it kinda goes with our 2X ball)

Anyway, we're avoiding the platform/bar entirely. We thought hard about the bar, and basically figured it wasn't worth it.
We figured the 50 points means nothing in your QP if you win. It means 50 points to the winning team if you lose. That on top of having our bot be redesigned for the platform, among other things just made it a big no-no. A simple bot with a small variety of choices works well. We have also balanced our offence and defence, the same way we've balanced our speed and torque.

[<=/cold\=>]

First post ever. From the impression that I got when we were discussing it at one of the meetings, we are going by priorities if we finish something and still have room and weight left over we will make the next peice on the list. In the order of:
1. Small Ball collector & plow/corraler
2. Big ball arm
3. bar hanger device

[ctyonthehil]

First post ever. From the impression that I got when we were discussing it at one of the meetings, we are going by priorities if we finish something and still have room and weight left over we will make the next peice on the list. In the order of:
1. Small Ball collector & plow/corraler
2. Big ball arm
3. bar hanger device

Just one thing, if you don't plan your mechanisms in the first stages of design, they probably won't get done, and if they do, they wont work that well.

Just a thought...

[Aaron Lussier]

Full Treads with double secret probatio.... a super secret* tread system attached to the front of the robot to climb the 6in lip to the bar.

Ball collector

Two hooks to hang

No 2x ball control

*not really PM me and I'll send you the link to the site we got the idea from.

Aaron

[Matt D]

I think controlling the 2x balls is more important than hanging on the bar (if you can get 5 balls in its worth the same amount as hanging). It's not that hard to make 5 balls in the stationary goal. Considering the trouble of getting up onto the platform, it's much easier to score the small balls and a muliplier.

Now what my team will actually do...