Leaning against vertical bar

[353Pobots]

Are you allowed to lean against the vetical bars while hanging off of the horizontal bar? I know the manual says you are not allowed to attach yourself to the bar, but says nothing about leaning or touching it.

[generalbrando]

I would say as long as you aren't supporting yourself on the bar they won't have a problem with it. It's not that the side bars are sacred. They just aren't meant to handle large side loads (notice how it's not really supported for this kind of load). So I would say go for it, but you should probably ask them on the Q+A section of the FIRST site to find out for sure.

[Adam Shapiro]

You can't use the bar for any support, including leaning against it.

[KyleGilbert45]

Under Definitions:

HANGING – A ROBOT is considered HANGING from the Pull-Up Bar if it is directly SUPPORTED by the horizontal bar and is not touching the carpet, platforms, or goals.

It says directly supported by the horizontal bar. Since FIRST said to use some common sense I would say leaning against the vertical bars would fall under the category "is not touching the carpet, platforms, or goals." But hey thats just what I think.

[Adam Shapiro]

I would say leaning against the vertical bars would fall under the category "is not touching the carpet, platforms, or goals."
Agreed.

[generalbrando]

I disagree. Supported is defined and it reads that you're supported if you would not be hanging if the supporting object were removed. Remove the side bars and you're still hanging (cough...assuming the bar would stay there. I'm thinking they were trying to clarify the fact that supporting means that the object carries the load, not something else). Anyway, I'd like to see this posted and clarified.

[Adam Shapiro]

Brando you might want to post it on the official FIRST forums to get a clarification. If you get one, we'd love to hear it!

[Jedi Padawan]

So let me get this right you basically cannot "touch the sidebar?" so if a team say had a mechanism to climb the sidebar and attatch a hook so they could use a climbing mechanism they couldn't??

[Adam Shapiro]

So let me get this right you basically cannot "touch the sidebar?" so if a team say had a mechanism to climb the sidebar and attatch a hook so they could use a climbing mechanism they couldn't??
According to what we have determined, they would be able to so long as the "climbing mechanism" didn't remain on the side bar at the end of the match.

[Solace]

i would say that you would be allowed to lean against the side bars. First most likely made the rule saying that you cannot be directly hanging on the side bars because those bars were not designed to handle the kind of side loads and strains that would happen if you were to hang from it. Also, they do not want robots to be able to cheat directly attach to the vertical poles low to the ground, picking themselves up without going to the trouble of reaching 10 feet in the air.

Basically, if you are clearly attached to the horizontal bar in some way, and the horizontal bar is bearing all of the load of your robot, you will be fine. as dean said, we are not lawyers here. although the wording is a little vague, the reasoning behind the rule is more readily apparent, and as long as you don't hurt the bar or gain an unneccessary advantage from touching the vertical poles i doubt that the refs will care.

[generalbrando]

Brando you might want to post it on the official FIRST forums to get a clarification. If you get one, we'd love to hear it!
I would, but I can't! I don't have the password. If someone else can - please do ask this. We can debate all we want, but what they say goes.

[Ken Loyd]

Let us suppose that robots A and B are hanging from the bar. At the last moment robot C attaches itself to the bar and rises off the floor pushing robots A and B against the pole. Common sense dictates that since robots A and B are hanging, they would each earn 50 points eventhough they are touching the poles. They did not use the poles in any way to achieve "hanging". If on the other hand robot D climbs up the pole (which I consider wrong), attaches itself to the bar but still stays in contact with the pole, I feel they schould not receive the points.

Ken Loyd
Team 64

[Gadget470]

imagine the field in this fasion:

| |
| |
| |
'-^x^--------'
|
|
[ROBOT]
' '

______________
PLATFORM

if the bars along the side were to be removed (in picture, hanging from the cieling) would your bot stay up?
in the case of the bot pushing the others against the bar:
| |
| |
| |
'--^x^^x^----'
/\/ |
.\ \ |
.\/[ROBOT]
' '

______________
PLATFORM

Without the bar, the pushed bot could still stay up.


Since we must try to understand the intention of the rules.. when finding all of these loopholes... determine the intention of your question.

Intention of chin-up bar rule:
To have robots hanging from horizontal bar. (when doing chin-ups do you do one hand on the chin-up and one on it's support?).

Intention of grabbing the side:
To avoid having to be hanging just from the horizontal bar.

Now.. what do you think your answer should be?
You don't need to go to Law school to be an Engineer.

[353Pobots]

The rules do say attach, im not talking about climbing, im talking about reaching the horizontal bar from the floor(on the side of it) lifting up and just leaning against the bar. If you remove the vertical bar we would still be hanging, but if we can't swing around and are leaning on the outside with our robot hanging still, does that count? That's what i was trying to ask before.

[psycho7]

As long as the robot is only using the vertical bar to keep its self from swinging and is not attached then it should be okay. But you never know when you may get a really annoying ref. (you know what I mean here)

[iCHiMaHoCV]

Because the manual DOES say that the Robot is considered hanging ONLY if it is DIRECTLY supported by the horizontal bar and because Dean did say something like, "Lets not interpret this like lawyers..." I should think that you cannot touch the vertical bars. However, if your bot is touching the vertical bar, but it could be supporting itself just fine without touchign the vertical bar then it should be legal because it isn't relying on the vertical pole to lift itself. Thats just my interpretation of the rule.

[Elgin Clock]

I have to throw something else in the blender now!

What do you think of the legallity of using the side vertical posts as leverage for just pulling your self up onto the step, but not using it to hang from?

Kind of like a kid climbing one of those big playground slides, you use the side rails of the steps (almost vertical) to achieve a "boost" to pull your self on to the platform(s) but not grabbing the vert pipes during the actual hanging process.

What do you all think of that?

[Raul]

Come on folks, do you not think FIRST intended to allow 4 robots to hang at once? Don't you think Dean and Woodie want to see this happen in some rounds - how exciting is it when at the last few seconds all robots get on the bar?

Assuming that, and since the horizontal bar space is less than 8 feet, is it really likely that 4 robots can hang from the bar without at least one touching or leaning against the vertical post?

I am willing to bet that they will not call a penalty if a robot is hanging and is leaning against the vertical post.

On the other hand, they want to protect that mechanisim that raises and lowers the bar. So, they do not allow attaching to the vertical posts. And they will not likely allow you to use it as leverage to climb to the horizontal bar.

That's what my common sense tells me.

[George1902]

Are you allowed to lean against the vetical bars while hanging off of the horizontal bar? I know the manual says you are not allowed to attach yourself to the bar, but says nothing about leaning or touching it.

We have an answer from FIRST. According to their Q & A System (http://my.usfirst.org/frc/qas/FMPro?-db=web_frcqa.fp5&-lay=web&-format=main_menu.htm&-error=error.htm&-view):

Q: Please define what is meant by "Attaching". It is not clear if we are allowed to touch, or lean against the vertical supports as long as we are hanging from the horizontal bar.

A: Refer to the definition of "supported." Incidental contact with the vertical poles of the Pull-up structure is allowed.

[Adam Shapiro]

I'm glad that this has finally been resolved. What I now want to know is why would somebody ask:
From the Q&A system (search for "Vertical"): what do you mean by "not directly supporting a vertical component of the load"?
Isn't that an obvious answer? Simple physics, my friends...

[Zach Purser]

I'm a little slow so can someone explain to me, if you are hanging on the horizontal bar from the opposite side of the vertical bar and your gripping mechanism is in the corner where the two bars meet, is this legal or are you using the vertical bar?

Attempt at a drawing:

..........|x____
........../
........./|
..robot.|
..........|
..........|

[Cory]

A little off topic, but unless youve asked FIRST a question via the Q&A Forums, or you read a response on there, or it's a clearcut answer (In this case, it obviously is not) why throw out the "In my opinion, I think, We have decided, etc" Everyone of those statements makes it very clear that you dont know the answer.

Why waste space if you just want to contribute your opinion?

It took 18 replies to get an answer that wasnt an opinion.

When you build your robot, do you go and say "I think this part should be xxx in length" while another team member says "No, it should be xxx long" and yet another says the same thing, until you have 20 people all saying what they think is the right dimension? No! you get a tape measure, and you measure it. Or in this case, ask FIRST.

Cory

[TomWx]

As long as the robot is only using the vertical bar to keep its self from swinging and is not attached then it should be okay. But you never know when you may get a really annoying ref. (you know what I mean here)
A recent Q&A post expanded on the "swinging": A robot can "swing" for approximately, but no more than, ten seconds once a match has stopped. The requirements for the points stay the same, that a robot can be touching and ONLY touching the horizontal bar at the end of a match. IT may not touch another robot, pole, ball, carpet, goal, or any other part of the playing field.

[Meredith Rice]

A recent Q&A post expanded on the "swinging": A robot can "swing" for approximately, but no more than, ten seconds once a match has stopped. The requirements for the points stay the same, that a robot can be touching and ONLY touching the horizontal bar at the end of a match. IT may not touch another robot, pole, ball, carpet, goal, or any other part of the playing field.

With the exception if a robot is pinned to the vertical poles by another haging robot but the robot is still supported by horizontal bar

[tenfour]

If you draw support vectors, you will see that if the robot is being supported by both the side and the top bar. Resulting, it would not be supported exclusivley by the bar.

Sorry, you can't do it!!

[psycho7]

if there are more than two robots hanging from the pole more then likely they will touch. as long as the hanging robots are touching nothing, besides the bar and it's supports, that is on the ground then it's okay.

[Matt Adams]

This thread needs to be clarified and closed. People need to read the rules. If it is found that I have incorrectly stated the rules in this post, I will request that it be deleted as to not add confusion.

Defintions
HANGING – A ROBOT is considered HANGING from the Pull-Up Bar if it is directly SUPPORTED by the horizontal bar and is not touching the carpet, platforms, or goals.
SUPPORTED – If the "supporting object" is removed, the ball would not remain SCORED or CAPPED and/or the ROBOT would not remain HANGING.
Rephrased for leaning against the vertical bars on the side
SUPPORTED – If the vertical bar is removed, would the ROBOT remain HANGING? If so, then it is not SUPPORTED by the vertical bar.
Incorrect Posts
If you draw support vectors, you will see that if the robot is being supported by both the side and the top bar. Resulting, it would not be supported exclusivley by the bar. Sorry, you can't do it!!THIS IS FALSE. READ HANGING and SUPPORTED.


A recent Q&A post expanded on the "swinging": A robot can "swing" for approximately, but no more than, ten seconds once a match has stopped. The requirements for the points stay the same, that a robot can be touching and ONLY touching the horizontal bar at the end of a match. IT may not touch another robot, pole, ball, carpet, goal, or any other part of the playing field.THIS IS FALSE. THE ONLY OFFICAL RESPONSE WITH "10 SECONDS" WAS:
Q:Would a hanging robot be scored if, after being powered down, it periodicaly touches the ground, but would eventually settle in a position where it would not touch the ground?

A:"Eventually" is typically about 10 seconds. If objects have not come to rest by then, the referees may disallow its score.
The last part stating a robot can only touch the horizontal bar and nothing else is not true.


The Question Everyone is Asking
..........|x____
........../
........./|
..robot.|
..........|
..........|
The way it is written, if you remove the vertical bar, your robot would swing down and be suppported by the horizontal bar. To the best of my knowledge, nothing in the rules and the definitions of SUPPORTED and HANGING exclude this robot from scoring points. However, if the robot would swing down and hit the platform (12 inches above the ground) it would NOT receive the bonus.

If someone would like to show me a response where it said you can not touch any other robots or the vertical bar, that'd be great. Every answer refers to to the definitions... please read them before you ask, and more importantly, before you answer.

Good luck everyone!

Matt

[Zach Purser]

Here's the Q and A that has me worried:

Section: 7.6 Status: Answered Date Answered: 1/16/2004
Q: If a robot is SUPPORTED only by the horizontal bar, but is
stabilized by being in contact with a vertical bar, is it attached to
the bar? No mechanism grips the vertical bar, and the robot would
still hang if the vertical bar was "removed."
A: Yes.
_________________________________________________
From the manual:
<T04> Robots may not intentionally:
• Attach themselves to the vertical supports of the pull-up bar
system;
__________________________________________________

My interpretation of this answer is that if the hook is in the corner it is being stabilized by the vertical bar and therefore considered attached which is not allowed.

[Matt Adams]

My interpretation of this answer is that if the hook is in the corner it is being stabilized by the vertical bar and therefore considered attached which is not allowed.
I just asked a question to clarify the Q&A you're worried about. I think they answered yet to attached to the horizontal bar instead of the vertical bar. The question didn't specify which bar it would be considered attached to.


I think this is an answer that should put this topic to ease:


Q:Would a robot receive the 50 points if, by design, it would be leaning on (but not supported by) the vertical bar?


A:Please read the many other answers on this topic but... yes as long as you are not in violation of HANGING or SUPPORTED.

Matt