Its getting to be RIDICULOUS! [Archive]

Marygrace

19-01-2004, 13:30

Jeremy

19-01-2004, 14:02

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you I have been waiting to hear that since the new game was announced and ppl started to down FIRST

lilszek24

19-01-2004, 14:06

i totally agree w/ u...FIRST does so much for kids involved in it and all this year its totally being bashed...and u all say u love FIRST! come on now!

Aaron Knight

19-01-2004, 21:55

Threads have been popping up, i can think of two in particular, where people are complaining and whining about the job that FIRST is doing. <snip> Instead of complaining about it, everyone needs to start working with what they are given, and start appreciating FIRST, not complaining about what they think FIRST is doing wrong.

My sentiments exactly. I'd like to see some of the complainers pull the kind of stuff off that the FIRST staff pulls.

Just to nitpick, of course, proper spelling (corrected in the quote) is appreciated ;)

Aignam

19-01-2004, 22:05

I think most FIRST-ers, or at least most that I know of, do appreciate FIRST. Because some of them might complain or whine once in a while doesn't mean that they don't appreciate FIRST's efforts. This is a forum, and one that I would like to think is meant for discussion. As long as the posters aren't being completely unruly, obnoxious, or acting otherwise out of line, these threads should continue. Maybe you can sway their opinions and make them all that much more grateful. Maybe the FIRST staff will get some good ideas. Not all negativity is a bad thing. Think of some of it as constructive criticism. This is not to say that some of the posts aren't out of line. FIRST-ers should be grateful. Heck, they should be more than grateful. But they should also be allowed to have thier own opinions.

Crop-Circles

19-01-2004, 22:14

Rather then complaining, shouldn't people be asking what they can do to fix the problem? What's the point of posting something that can't be helped? If you don't ask for or present a possible solution, then why are you posting?

Ryan Dognaux

19-01-2004, 22:22

There is a difference between flaming FIRST and giving them constructive criticism. Some people need to figure out the difference.

KenWittlief

20-01-2004, 08:48

the complaining is a good example of human nature.

Being on a FIRST team entails a lot of stress - its very demanding.

When someone does something that causes us pain or discomfort, or makes us angry we dont like feeling that way

for some reason the normal human response it to inflict pain back in the direction from which it came - to lash out at the source - to punish that person for making you feel bad.

We do it all the time, without realizing it. It seems to be instinctive. We do this when we are infants and unless someone points it out you may do it for the rest of your life.

Whats the solution? If someone has caused you grief, or thrown you a curveball then its perfectly ok to vent, to say "FIRST did this and that and I am SO ANGRY RIGHT NOW I COULD SPIT QUARTER TWENTY BOLTS THROUGH THE WALL!!!!"

Anger is normal, anger is ok - it gives FIRST the chance to come back and say, "Yes, we know this is causing problems and we're sorry for the grief its causeing"

funny thing is, as soon as someone else acknowledges your anger, acknowledges that you have a good reason to be upset, that you have been put in a difficult situation - as soon as that happens your anger melts away in seconds, and its gone for good!

but whats not OK it to attack FIRST, to insinuate that they are incompetent, or that they dont care.

If you are angry, then be angry, but in your anger do not 'sin' :c)

maybe CD should open a new forum section - the scream room, where frustrated posters can vent their anger, find some symphatic shoulders to lean on for a few minutes, and then get back to work?

Aignam

20-01-2004, 15:07

maybe CD should open a new forum section - the scream room, where frustrated posters can vent their anger, find some symphatic shoulders to lean on for a few minutes, and then get back to work?
And disable bad reputation for that section. ::shudders at the nightmare that might ensue...::

tribotec_ca88

21-01-2004, 07:27

I agree...if people aren´t satisfied with what FIRST is deciding to do, the solution is simple: LEAVE. Nobody´s making them participate!!!

shyra1353

26-01-2004, 21:28

I completely agree with everything that has been said in the thread so far.

I just want to add this:

First off, its been said before, but FIRST is doing the best they can, and personally i think they are doing a great job.
but whats not OK it to attack FIRST, to insinuate that they are incompetent, or that they dont care i agree 150% with this. FIRST is awesome and they do care. FIRST is one of the greatest organizations out there and when you think about it, they care a great deal about what happens to each and every team there is.
I know that the Canadian Regional Director (Mark Breadner) was helping my team find sponsors in early-to mid November when we still had no money. It is people like him and the rest of the volunteers that make FIRST such a great thing to be a part of and make it so that each team is taken care of.

Second off, Chiefdelphi is a great forum and Brandon has done an awesome job in making it this awesome. However, I must say that peoples complaints about FIRST do NOT belong here. Maybe if a thread was created for members only to see .. but thats besides the point.

When you go to a company to ask for sponsorship, you give them the link to www.usfirst.org (obviously). well usfirst.org links to Chiefdelphi and why in the world would a company want to get involved in something where the participants are not happy with the organization. Granted not everyone is complaining, but when you see a few threads with complaints, from a company's perspective, FIRST is not making its participants happy.

Bottom Line: FIRST is awesome, sure they have minor problems, but they do their best to sort them out as soon as possible and I do not think that Chiefdelphi is the place for these complaints.

IMDWalrus

26-01-2004, 21:59

maybe CD should open a new forum section - the scream room, where frustrated posters can vent their anger, find some symphatic shoulders to lean on for a few minutes, and then get back to work?
That forum would be a nightmare... :ahh:

I've always thought that the CD users were polite and well behaved. That would go right out the window if we had a Scream Room forum... :)

ShadowKnight

26-01-2004, 22:26

in my oppinion, if people seriously have issues with FIRST, they should take it up with people who actually have some power to maybe fix the problem. I can garuntee y'all that FIRST is not trying to ignore its participants. But like it has been mentioned before, the organization only has like 100 staff members and the rest of the organization is built off a volunteer staff, one that I hope to be a member of in my freshman year of college, after I'm done as a participant so that FIRST can continue to improve upon the level of excellence I believe they have already achieved.

Please, if you can't help fix the problem, then don't become part of it by discouraging corprorations from funding FIRST and limiting even more their cash flow. God bless FIRST, CD, and what both organizations are trying to do.

Andy Grady

26-01-2004, 22:29

Unfortunately, as long as there is FIRST, there will always be "monday morning quarterbacks". It is human nature to complain, to vent, to let out frustration...and no matter what we do, its going to happen on these boards. There are a few givens that everyone should understand, and I'm sure most do...

1. FIRST works very hard to try to make a game that keeps us captivated while opening up to a crowd of interested sponsors, promotion opportunities, etc...

2. No matter who you are, no matter how much you think you know FIRST, the game will always be hit or miss, and there is no way to make everyone love the game.

3. In order to keep the game interesting and creative, and to assure that there is no "answer", FIRST has to take chances with rules. Many people will not like the rule changes, but they are in essence what will make or break a game.

I realized a few years back that when FIRST releases a game, it is easy to jump to conclusions...and then be wrong later. Perfect example was in 1999 when alliances were introduced. Many people didnt like the idea of joining with other teams. In the end, it was probably one of the best moves FIRST has ever made.

With this, I remind everyone that though you may want to vent...and this is America, we have the luxury of freedom of speech (within Brandons allowance of course on these boards), you might want to hold off about a couple more months before you start flaming FIRST for game changes.

To those who are a part of FIRST staff who view these boards and have to listen to the harsh criticisms...thank you. You are patient, you do more than just make the game, set up regionals, and all the other administrative details. You live these games with us, and for that, EVERYONE on this board is very lucky. It shows how much you care about FIRST and the futures of the many young minds who will go through the program.

Good Luck to all,
Andy Grady

KenWittlief

27-01-2004, 08:31

That forum would be a nightmare... :ahh:

I've always thought that the CD users were polite and well behaved. That would go right out the window if we had a Scream Room forum... :)

why not set it up so you cant post your screaming fits of anger there, but they never appear on the forum - maybe only let mentors read them, offer back a few encouraging words

that way, the venting wont get spewed on the general public - or maybe nobody reads them at all?

c-squared_2006

27-01-2004, 12:04

At times things could get a little much for people to handle, they maybe just mad or discouraged. Some words of encouragements maybe needed. ;) I personally propose a room where they can go to let off some steam, maybe not necessairly the 'anger' room but more like the 'I need to complain' room. Often people do things that are not exactly the smartest things to do or say, but mostly it's the spur of the moment type of thing that they regret later. That way everyone doesn't necessairly need to read other's complains, rather people who chose to be uplifting could chose to read the complains and perhaps offer some calming words. :)

Bharat Nain

27-01-2004, 14:57

It was one mans dream to make this thing big.

Thats all I have to say

dlavery

28-01-2004, 23:20

I agree...if people aren´t satisfied with what FIRST is deciding to do, the solution is simple: LEAVE. Nobody´s making them participate!!!

I don't want to pick on this one response, but it will help me illustrate a slightly different point than many of the comments so far.

I really want to hear from all those that are not satisfied with FIRST and the way things have gone so far (and may continue). I think that we should welcome the complainers, the "whiners" (yes, I have used that term), the agitators and the malcontents.

FIRST knows that there are problems with the implementation of the competition this year (as there have been in every prior year). The fact that there are areas in which to improve is a surprise to no one. But it is harder to understand the relative importance of these items from the perspective of the teams, and sorting the items important to the teams from those important to the internal operations of FIRST.

This is where the feedback from the "complainers" become critical. It is largely because of that we are able to figure out where the most aggregious errors may lie in how things are implemented, and provide meaningful information and constructive suggestions back to FIRST. I don't want you to leave - I want you to keep writing!

My only request is that everyone provides their feedback ("complaints"? "whines"? "kvetches"?) in a CONSTRUCTIVE manner without personal attacks, diatribes, massive flames, late-night rants, or tantrums. Talk to FIRST the way you would like someone to talk to you. You can disagree, but be courteous. If we all act like adults, then FIRST will be able to respond to us as adults, and we will all help build a better program. But definitely keep the feedback coming!

-dave

ChrisH

29-01-2004, 12:13

.....

This is where the feedback from the "complainers" become critical. It is largely because of that we are able to figure out where the most aggregious errors may lie in how things are implemented, and provide meaningful information and constructive suggestions back to FIRST. I don't want you to leave - I want you to keep writing!

My only request is that everyone provides their feedback ("complaints"? "whines"? "kvetches"?) in a CONSTRUCTIVE manner without personal attacks, diatribes, massive flames, late-night rants, or tantrums. Talk to FIRST the way you would like someone to talk to you. You can disagree, but be courteous. If we all act like adults, then FIRST will be able to respond to us as adults, and we will all help build a better program. But definitely keep the feedback coming!

-dave

Better yet, while telling FIRST and others how things might be done better, VOLUNTEER to help make it happen and then DO what you said you would. Help once or twice and show you're good at whatever it is, and the next thing you know, you'll be in charge and you can do it your way.

Now there's a scary thought....

Mark Pettit

14-01-2005, 09:44

Rich Kressly

14-01-2005, 10:08

I posted an alternate solution with an example for those who need to vent before the kickoff happened:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=312940&postcount=1

Now, when you're ready to work on solving problems and move forward .... that's what CD is all about.

Erin Rapacki

14-01-2005, 10:17

I think this all goes back to the "think before you post" concept. Its OK to be displeased with FIRST because that's how they know to improve certain aspects of their organization. However, it's in the method and context that one notes they are displeased that matters:

- Find appropriate thread to note the problem.
- Post the problem frankly; try to avoid using emotion or personality.
- Framing the request as constructive criticism would be best.

There are two people involved in a communication: the writer and the reader. Many readers here are complying with build-season stress and might misunderstand a writer's message as overly negative. It's up to the writer to post ideas and criticisms as clearly as possible.

Joe Johnson

14-01-2005, 10:58

...
The problem is that overzealousness abounds in FIRST....
Mark,

I see your point and I agree. BUT... ...it is possible to point in a better direction without getting flamed.

If you read my history of posts (not really recommended as brevity is not my strong point ;-) there are a LOT of "FIRST has really screwed up here" posts.

Even so, I try to temper things and to remain as contructive as I can given the points I feel need to get made.

As to humor and negativity, I basically called 99% of the readers of ChiefDelphi.com swine (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32456) and got away with it without a single negative reputation point coming my way. A body of work that is generally positive and contructive plus humor builds up good will.

Joe J.

Rocketboy

14-01-2005, 11:04

My first FRC was the best thing that ever happened to excepting one thing: and that was my first ever solo flight as an airplane pilot.

dhitchco

14-01-2005, 11:44

Folks,
this is a GREAT thread.

I suspect I'm a lot older (but maybe not wiser) than most people posting on ChiefDelphi. I very much liked Dave Laverty's response, especially

My only request is that everyone provides their feedback ("complaints"? "whines"? "kvetches"?) in a CONSTRUCTIVE manner without personal attacks, diatribes, massive flames, late-night rants, or tantrums. Talk to FIRST the way you would like someone to talk to you. You can disagree, but be courteous. If we all act like adults, then FIRST will be able to respond to us as adults, and we will all help build a better program. But definitely keep the feedback coming!

Some thoughts about "real world" FIRST:
1) Be thankful that we all have a GOOD, robust set of written rules and guidelines. Much of what you do in the "real world" has no rules. You have to look yourself int he mirror and make them up as you live; knowing that what you do WILL come back to haunt you sooner or later.
2) If you don't like it where you sit today, change it! We are the most "empowered" people in the entire world. We have a voice, we have a unified (somewhat) democratic, capitalistic society. We CAN change things CONSTRUCTIVELY.

So, with that said, I'd like to challenge every member in this forum (BTW; my first year ever in FRC) to do the following:
1) Put something constructive and positive in your chat signature; there's way too much garbage (or worse)
2) BEFORE you post, count to ten before you press the "submit reply" key and put yourself in the place of the thousands of readers
3) Read the FRC manual from the back to the front (twice)

LASTLY, take a deep breath and HAVE fun.....the real business world is nowhere near as much fun as FIRST......

Zanella BR

14-01-2005, 11:55

I agree, it's hard to find a technology competition as good as FIRST.

dlavery

14-01-2005, 16:34

You know what? I try to tell it like it is. I love FIRST as much as anyone. They do 99% of what they do better than what I would ever expect. However, if one of the members of my team or if I have a gripe about something FIRST-related, CD is the first place I come to vent and see if other people have the same or similar issue.

The problem is that overzealousness abounds in FIRST. I get flamed regularly when I make even the slightest criticism of FIRST, and God forbid if I should use any hint of facetiousness in my post because every zealot and his/her team knows that FIRST only lends itself to the most serious gracious professionals.

I believe that a forum should be open to all schools of thought and means of expressing them. If my tongue is in my cheek at times then that should be alright. Please don’t pop me in the chin to make me bite it off just because you disagree with me.

I’m as into this stuff as most of you, I can assure you, but then there are some of you who are just over the top that really need to step back, take a deep breath, and lighten up.

FIRST makes us all feel really good about ourselves the majority of the time, but that doesn’t make FIRST perfect!

I would just ask that you consider the following two points.

There is a world of difference between true "constructive criticism" and "coming here to vent." The former makes an observation about an issue in a manner that is intended to educate, enlighten, inform, and lead to a solution. It is designed to respect both the seriousness of the issues, and the dignity of the other party. Done properly, it results in a problem being recognized and acknowledged as an issue worthy of discussion, and hopefully of resolution.

The latter does nothing but expose others to the content of someone's spleen, and frequently results in an ugly, smelly mess. The only person to walk away from the experience with any satisfaction is the venter, while the "ventee" and all innocent bystanders have the feeling of being crapped upon. Personally, I find it very difficult to make any effort at all to see someone else's point of view if they start the conversation by doing this to me. I have always found that this is the least effective manner available to get a problem resolved.

On the second point, we must remember that it is very difficult for others to discern when reading a text narrative if the author is typing the message with tongue planted firmly in cheek, flailing madly at the keyboard in emotional distress, or even sitting around in their underwear while typing, unless the author makes it abundantly clear. If we are having fun with a topic, that is perfectly acceptable - as long as it is very clear to those on the other end of the forum that that is what is occurring. Properly expressing humor, or sarcasm, or serious concern, through just the use of the written word is difficult. Authors must remember that they cannot make use of vocal intonations, facial expressions, verbal cadence, or any of a huge number of verbal and non-verbal cues that we use to communicate emotion and tone. As authors of a message, it is our job to ensure that the proper message gets through to the reader. If the average reader cannot identify wondrous prose as a great example of fine wit, and instead decodes the narrative as bilious babble, then is the fault with the reader or the author?

-dave

Jaine Perotti

14-01-2005, 17:47

FIRST does many many wonderful things. It has inspired, motivated, and changed the lives of many adults and students for the better. For me, the FIRST experience has transcended above all of the other extracurriculars I've ever been involved in. In fact, I don't even consider FIRST to be an extracurricular anymore; it is a way of life.

However, as with any aspect of life, FIRST grows and changes. FIRST's mission has always been to inspire young people to have a greater appreciation and understanding of science and technology. So far, they have been quite successful in that mission. But in continuing to provide these wonderful opportunities, FIRST must try to implement better methods of doing so. Just as we try to improve our robots every season, FIRST tries to improve the experience that it gives to us every year.

In designing robots, we make hypotheses about what mechanical, electrical, or coding system will work the best. We use all our knowledge of these disciplines to help us take an educated guess at what will give us the desired results. But we can never really know what the outcome will be, until we test the robot in competition. Sometimes robots will perform beautifully, and do what they were expected to do without a hitch. But other times (and we have all experienced this), our design hypothesis turns out to be flawed, and we must start back at square one to reflect on what went wrong ...and consequently redesign.

Analogous to this is the 'design' of FIRST itself. All of the dedicated individuals who are a part of FIRST want to make it even better than it already is. They come up with a 'hypothesis' for success, just as we come up with a 'hypothesis' for our robot design. FIRST tries to improve yearly, and often FIRST is successful. But other times, FIRST may make an incorrect hypothesis, and things may not turn out as smoothly as we would all like them to be.

When a team's robot turns out to have an unsuccessful design, one thing I never see at competitions are people being negative toward that team; no booing, no ridiculing, no negative comments. This is because of the spirit of gracious professionalism: an underlying element of the FIRST experience. I see people willing to reach out to the teams who have been unsuccessful. People who understand what it means to be constructive and give advice to improve their robot 'hypotheses'. People who recognize the importance of making the FIRST Robotics Competition more dynamic, inspiring, ...and fun. People who we should try to emulate.

If only more people could have the same attitude toward FIRST as they do toward their fellow teams!
Just like we give constructive feedback to those who are less experienced at robot design, we should be giving constructive feedback to FIRST! Just as it is unacceptable to be negative and demeaning to the less outstanding teams at a competition, it is unacceptable to be negative and demeaning to FIRST when they turn out to be wrong.

We all know that nothing gets done when all you do is trash talk another team. We should also realize that we will not help to improve FIRST by dismissing something as "stupid" or "bad" without offering a better solution. It is time we start applying the principles of GP found at competitions ...to our own conduct outside the competition. Be constructive! Offer input that will help FIRST improve! Let them know what they are doing wrong in a respectful manner; that way they will be even more willing to listen to you. This is what we do when we help each other... so lets start doing this when we want to help FIRST!

-- Jaine

Adam Y.

14-01-2005, 17:59

Personally the one thing that I hate is that some of the critisism has been really misguided. Smeone said that the competition is an old rehash of other competitions and no self respecting engnineer would want to reinvent the wheel. This is fairly scary because I can cite about a million reasons why this isn't true and is a gross misrepresentation of the field.

JoeXIII'007

14-01-2005, 19:51

I definitely agree, it is getting rediculous. I'll be honest, there are many things that I believe have gone wrong, but does that mean I should EXPECT that it gets fixed immediately, or blast FIRST for it, no. For I fully understand, that even though that FIRST is a 14+ year old organization, the number really doesn't matter. FIRST has been and will continue to be a work in progress as all other things in life are.

Dave,

Thanks for opening the door for criticism, just as long as you aren't the only one taking it. :)

My team has come to the general consensus that FIRST's holy grail, Gracious Professionalism, has been literally put to the side in this year's game. The rules proove it.

<G25> Strategies aimed solely at the destruction, damage, tipping over, or entanglement of ROBOTS are not
in the spirit of FIRST Robotics Competition and are not allowed. However, Triple Play is a highly interactive
contact game. Some tipping, entanglement, and damage may occur as a part of normal game play. If the
tipping, entanglement, or damage occurs where it is not a part of normal game play, at the referee’s discretion,
the offending team/ROBOT may be disqualified from that match. Repeated offenses could result in a
team/ROBOT being disqualified from the remainder of the Regional or Championship competition.
Examples of normal game play interaction include:
•Pushing low on another ROBOT.
•Blocking or pushing on a TETRA that is in possession of an opposing ROBOT.
•Establishing ROBOT position to block access to a GOAL by an opposing ROBOT.
•Using an arm or gripper to prevent an opposing ROBOT from placing a TETRA on a GOAL.

It is in the opinion of myself and other members of my team, that even pushing low, blocking, etc. is a bit questionable. As an example, at nationals last year in a Curie Division qualifying match, there was a robot (who I will not reveal any information about) that kept on pushing us to the point we were driven out of bounds. Sure they were pushing low, not ramming, but the point is this: 'pushing low on another robot' has very broad meaning, such as the example above. Try and get even more specific. Your video showing a sample match for this game is a great example of how the above could happen.

I really hope that this doesn't repeat anything, or sound a bit weak, but these are just the thoughts of my team and I. Thanks.

M. Hicken

14-01-2005, 22:31

since im no vetran to FIRST ive been afraid to say anything. But $@#$@#$@#$@#, you people should be greatful, first has changed my life in so many ways, i could write a book on it. While i agree with a few, IMHO this is not the most chalanging year. BE GREATFUL, WHAT WOULD YOU BE DOING IF YOU DIDNT TAKE PART IN THE GREAT ORGANIZATION.

Petey

14-01-2005, 23:48

Threads have been popping up, i can think of two imparticular, where people are complaining and whining about the job that FIRST is doing. FIRST is working their bum off to keep this thing moving. You try and make something as diverse as FIRST robotics, and expensive as FIRST robotics running. The stress is probably multiplied when about 1000 teams are depending on FIRST to keep things running smoothly and to keep it off the ground. FIRST is doing an awesome job. Just because they aren't serving your every need, giving you the parts you want, having to change the Chairman's award submission the way you dont like. Instead of complaining about it, eevryone needs to start working with wut they are given, and start apreciating FIRST, not complaining about wut they think FIRST is doing wrong.

Let me preface this by saying that I have an enormous amount of respect for FIRST, the organization. They put in tremendous effort and pull off an amzing feat every year. I can't thank them enough for creating a system like this.

Now that that's said--

It is preposterous to declare a moratorium on constructive criticsm. While I think there are individuals who do little but whine and think unreasonable thoughts of FIRST, I think there is a greater number of individuals who spot problems or holes in the game and attempt to bring these to the attention of FIRST. They cannot work within the system, so it is their duty to bring concerns to the attention of the people in the system. I can't make a law, but I can bring my case to my congressman.

I've noticed that threads and posts have been deleted--threads or posts that seem to question or--god forbid!--criticize the FIRST organization. And I ask this: how do you expect the problems of FIRST (and make no mistake that there are problems) to be addressed and solved if they are not brought to the attention of FIRST.

Look, I've managed quite a few things in my high school career. Nothing on the scale of FIRST, but enough to know a bit about organization and people management. One of the key things you need, as a manager, is other people to do small tasks for you. One of those tasks is quality control. And the best way to do quality control is to have other people bring complaints to you. You listen to the complaints, assess them, and take all measures possible to serve them, if that service would also serve the greater good. You do not silence them, or cow them by berating them about the head with tantrums of how busy you are.

Sometimes, I think the latter is happening a bit on the CD forums, and in the FIRST world in general. Not all the time, but sometimes. And I would urge those who seek to strangle all reasonable criticism to stop: you are doing a greater disservice than you may know.

--Petey

DukesAZ

15-01-2005, 12:38

Thank you Petey.

I think the "criticism of the critics" posts need to stop. Its a waste of time. Stop worrying about your reputations and what other people think about FIRST! Get back to building your robot!

I feel I need to defend Mr. Pettit against some of the attacks made on him. Mr. Pettit has spent five years now in FIRST and he has poured blood, sweat, and tears into it. He has spent thousands of hours running both a FIRST and Lego League team in addition to helping organize this year's Arizona Kickoff. When ASU couldn't host the event, Mr. Pettit stepped up and convinced our school to allow us to use our blackbox theater and classrooms to host the Kickoff and seminars. I can safely say without the work of Mr. Pettit and the Arizona Regional Planning Committee there would not have been an Arizona Kickoff. If Mr. Pettit didn't love FIRST, he wouldn't participate. I don't think anybody has any right whatsoever to question Mr. Pettit's dedication to FIRST or likewise accuse him of being "ungrateful" towards FIRST. Quite frankly, some of the behavior I have seen on this forum towards people who criticize FIRST is bordering on McCarthyism.

Is Mr. Pettit blunt? You bet he is! He doesn't have time to dance around the issue or sugarcoat things. None of us do. Mr. Pettit doesn't have the time to sit there and say "Gee, will this offend any of the zealots on CD?". Mr. Pettit's bluntness gets things done too. When Pettit says to me, "Hey, you're screwing up, shape up!" I shape up really quick. Other people would subtly attack the issue hoping things would change. Blunt doesn't automatically me you are cruel or mean, it just means you get to the point quicker. More people in FIRST need to be like Mr. Pettit if you ask me.

The sprockets thread was over and done with in my opinion when the solutions to the problem were posted. There was absolutely no need for the comments following the post made by Mr. Neun. The comments like "GO OUT AND BUY A 16MM DRILL BIT BLAH BLAH" where completely unnecessary and I think an apology is owed to those teams who dared post criticism on the matter.

In closing, criticism (or "whining" as particular posters would say) is what changes things. Those on this forum who believe there should be a ban on criticism all together are wrong and in my opinion dangerous. If they would have had their way, we wouldn't have any gotten this year's tranny kit because it was criticism of the poor quality of previous years' drive system that led to those changes. I hope that our criticism of the sprocket problem will convince FIRST to rethink how they issue sprockets in the kit. Remember guys, we spent 6 grand on this kit, I think we have every right to scrutinize what is in the kit.

I am done. I am going to take my own advice and go back to actually caring about important things.

Dorienne

15-01-2005, 12:51

First off, I have to make one point here before I begin my say in this. FIRST is purely for educational purposes. This program is to educate students in a variety of fields, ranging from engineering to business. It is like a big business, there will be criticism on how it is run, but guys, like it's been said before, think about it. 100 volunteers versus about 1200 teams. That's quite a big ratio. 1 volunteer per 12 teams.
These volunteers are working extremely hard in helping us all and serving us as quickly as we can. We should not be complaining about anything, considering FIRST has teams in other countries to worry about along with all the teams in the United States and Canada.
Notice how I emphasize volunteers. They are volunteering their time to help all of our students, and mentors, learn and get the best experience out of this. FIRST is an amazing program, and sometimes there are setbacks. It's a part of what the real world is like. This stuff happens. All we have to do is make the best of it and find how to come up with the best solution possible to solve our dilemma.
If you want to vent about it, put it in a journal or diary or just punch a wall. But just know that it won't solve anything.

Marygrace

15-01-2005, 13:11

I am not going to make this long, because i had just worte the whole thing, then when i pressed submit, i was logged out, ugggg.

Okay, first off. When i wrote this thread, it was in response to the threads posted in the season of 2004. For example the thread, "Is First Moving backwards"

The title itself is attacking FIRST. If you want to make constructive criticism, you politley make your point across and suggest ways in which whatever you thought was wrong could have been done better. You have to respect those that will disagree with you. If someone "Flames" at you, you cannot flame back, what is the point in that? You are never going to please everyone, so please do not hold back your opinions because you are afraid people will not agree. If everyone did that...i don't think Chief Delphi would be this big.

There is a world of difference between true "constructive criticism" and "coming here to vent." The former makes an observation about an issue in a manner that is intended to educate, enlighten, inform, and lead to a solution. It is designed to respect both the seriousness of the issues, and the dignity of the other party. Done properly, it results in a problem being recognized and acknowledged as an issue worthy of discussion, and hopefully of resolution.
Mr. Lavery ALWAYS says it best. You must respect the 'other party'. If they give a reaction you don't like, just calmly defend your opinion, that is all you can do. And if you are going to post on Chief Delphi please keep an open mind to the fact that you may not always be right. And, before you decide you don't like that something that FIRST does, think about why they did it. How the way they did it benefits FIRST.

Petey,
I know full well that in order for an organization, or a team, to improve upon itself, it needs constructive criticism. If someone outright tells you that what you did was wrong, and they didn't even look into the reason as to why it might be benficial to the team or organization AND they don't even give a suggestion an dhow they think it could have been better, you tend to not want to listen. My family was big part of running Beach Cities Robotics for two years, and we heard a lot of complaining. And we hear a lot of constructive criticism, the second, we tended to listen to with more heart, and with more open minds then the out right complaining.

So here is my Constructive Criticism on Constructive Criticism.

1. Do exactly as Mr. Lavery says.

2. Respect the party that may not agree with you, and keep them in mind.

3. Do not 'flame' back at them when they 'flame' at you.

4. Suggest ways in which you thought the thing that was done poorly could have been done better.

5. Choose an apropriate title. Ex. I could have used a better title on this thread, with less emotion and more...Gracious Proffesionalism than i did.

Which brings me to my next point:

6. When you are trying to make a point, try not to use emotion. The first thing we learned in school is that when writing a persuasive essay, you cannot use emotion to get your point across. You need facts.

7. Keep an open mind to others opinion about your opinion, they might point out things you didn't realize. Always keep an open mind on Chief Delphi.

8. On CD be as proffesional as you can about any post you make. It will come across better to everyone earning you respect.

I had some other ideas, but i forgot them. Just keep in mind, that everything that FIRST does has a reason, and it might not make things easier on you, but FIRST might do things to make things better for the FIRST organization so it can keep on growing, or things might be done to benefit teams that are less fortuant then yourselves.

9. LOOK AT DATES, i started this thread a year ago.

Marygrace

15-01-2005, 16:25

10. And if you disagree with someone else's opinion, do onto others what you would have them do onto you. React to them the way you would want them to react to you if they didn't like one of your opinions. Giving them bad rep and telling them not to make any more of those kind of threads is not the appropriate way to react, just because you don't agree with it. Only moderators have the right to do that.

BlazinFire47

15-01-2005, 19:43

I agree with everyone on that note. This is my second year on FIRST and even though the game is more difficult why should people complain. FIRST is doing all they can to keep vetern teams in the mix and bring aboard new teams to compile the frenzy were all in. I can understand the change in the Chairmans award submission, but it is all done to get more teams into the hall of fame and more teams to participate. Just try to look at it from FIRST's point of view. They want all the teams they can get because they love to see the dedication put in by teams and parents, but the students is what really gets them going. Seeing the students is why they do these things. Don't get down because of the changes, it's done to prepare us for the future ahead of us and that's why I continue to strive. Everyone just think of how FIRST would feel if you complained to them bout the game and other stuff, just don't do it. It's not worth the time to complain to them, just do as you always do, do your best!!! :D