10 pt. ball into/out of play

[Lil' Lavery]

Do you think its better to design a device to bring the 10 pt. ball into play or just one to knock it out. Knocking it out is simpler, but reduces the matches score. Which do you think is better.

[Cory]

It doesnt really lower the score. I figure that if you can get 2 balls into the goal, youve got the 10 pt ball. If you knock it in, great. If you dont, great. Even if you get it in, youve still got to get it to the human player. Even after you get it to the human player, the human player has to get it into a goal. If you can move the mobile goal close, then it's fairly easy. If the mobile goal is full or you cant get it close to the player stations, then youve got to shoot for the fixed goal, which is going to be harder.

The bottom line is, whether its on the field or not, you've got 18 balls more than if it's on the tee.

Cory

[KenWittlief]

this is a good example of how you can spend a lot of time money and resources trying to make a very small improvement in your score - its not worth it

knocking the ball off buys you 45 seconds of playtime with the balls on the floor

gathering 5 point balls has a potential value of 90 points (for the 18 on your side)

being able to cap a goal has a potential value of 120 points, if you have all 24 of your 5 point balls in a goal

hanging has a potential value of 50 points

are we going to spend effort going after something with a potential value of 10 or 20 points?

No.

[Levaman]

this is a good example of how you can spend a lot of time money and resources trying to make a very small improvement in your score - its not worth it

knocking the ball off buys you 45 seconds of playtime with the balls on the floor

gathering 5 point balls has a potential value of 90 points (for the 18 on your side)

being able to cap a goal has a potential value of 120 points, if you have all 24 of your 5 point balls in a goal

hanging has a potential value of 50 points

are we going to spend effort going after something with a potential value of 10 or 20 points?

No.

You don't have to pick up the ball to put it into play. Just a cylinder with a shroud on it and to knock it in.

Remember though, you'll probably be in auton mode if your going for it. The Phrase KISS sums up what I'm trying to say. :D

[kjohnson]

But its a whole lot easier to knock the ball out and be done with it than to take your sweet time and reach around it to bring it back in.

[Ryan Albright]

Yes trying to bring it into play will just take to much time i mean shure 10 points is nice but there is other things you can do wiht your autonmous time. I know last year autonmous became very important last year but i think this year is even more critical cause most likely teams are gonna go knock that ball off but i mean wiht a good ai that will take what like 3-6 seconds that you stil lhave alot of time to set up for your next move or bring back the goal.

[kjohnson]

Yes trying to bring it into play will just take to much time i mean shure 10 points is nice but there is other things you can do wiht your autonmous time. I know last year autonmous became very important last year but i think this year is even more critical cause most likely teams are gonna go knock that ball off but i mean wiht a good ai that will take what like 3-6 seconds that you stil lhave alot of time to set up for your next move or bring back the goal.

exactly

[KenWittlief]

its not just the 3 seconds on the field - its the hours and hours you will have to spend to get the more complex retrieve subsystem to work, instead of the no-brainer 'set it flying' subsystem

take a carefull look at the field boundary and the pipes you have to reach through - knocking the ball onto the field is not trivial

and if your bot is standing right there, it will probabally bounce off your bot and go off the field anyway.

[Ben Mitchell]

You could just make an arm with an L shape to it to knock the ball to the side rather than out - or at least give a greater chance of knocking the ball inwards rather than pushing it out.

If you can score a ten point ball, it's half the time for twice the points rather than make two shots with the normal balls.

I say do your best to keep them in play.

[Lil' Lavery]

You could just make an arm with an L shape to it to knock the ball to the side rather than out - or at least give a greater chance of knocking the ball inwards rather than pushing it out.

Thats exactly what i was thinking. A PVC L, just a quick wrap-around and a tug will bring it in. If you have an extra motor you could make swing free of the robot if you wanted. Real simple design that takes you maybe an hour to build. That is if you have a swing motor, otherwise 10-15 minutes.

[ngreen]

I thought that they would put the the 10 pt balls back into play so it wouldn't matter... Did they say something different?

[tkwetzel]

Only the large balls will be put back into play this year. If the small balls leave the field, then they stay out of the game.

[Enslaved]

Hmm....
Just knock it out...
There's already enough complexity in all our robots, performing mutiple task
Yes, I agree with the L-shaped idea, it is simple, but chances are you migth just knock it off
But, it's not worth brainstorming for hours and hours, and having another moving mechanism

Ask yourself....all that, is it worth the 10-points?

[Ben Mitchell]

Hmm....
Just knock it out...
There's already enough complexity in all our robots, performing mutiple task
Yes, I agree with the L-shaped idea, it is simple, but chances are you migth just knock it off
But, it's not worth brainstorming for hours and hours, and having another moving mechanism

Ask yourself....all that, is it worth the 10-points?

Depends on if you can gather and shoot more balls into goals.

I know if I see a ten point ball on the field, I'm going for it. Same amount of work to shoot a 5 or 10 point ball - but the 10 pointer is worth twice as much.

Add in a 2x multiplier, and it's worth 4 times as much.

Sounds worth it to me.

[tkwetzel]

"Add in a 2x multiplier, and it's worth 4 times as much"

It would still only be worth twice as much, because the 2x would double the 5 pointer as well. So if you put a 5 point ball in that goal instead of a 10 pointer and still capped it, it would be worth 10 points instead of 20.

[Ben Mitchell]

"Add in a 2x multiplier, and it's worth 4 times as much"

It would still only be worth twice as much, because the 2x would double the 5 pointer as well. So if you put a 5 point ball in that goal instead of a 10 pointer and still capped it, it would be worth 10 points instead of 20.

If you put a ten point ball in a goal and cap it, it's worth twenty

20/5 = 4

At that point, it is worth four times a normal, uncapped ball.

[tkwetzel]

"If you put a ten point ball in a goal and cap it, it's worth twenty

20/5 = 4

At that point, it is worth four times a normal, uncapped ball."

The game is not equal at this point, and the 10 point ball might make a difference. But when you strategically look at this, you should assume the same events happen, except that you put a 10 point all in the goal instead of a 5 point ball. So if you cap it or not, the 10 point ball is twice the point vvalue of the 5 point ball.

[ShadowKnight]

I see very little reson to push the ball out of play unless speed is absolutely critical. Otherwise, it's like another ball only worth more points. Granted it's not worth anything to you if you miss and could hurt you if the other team gets a hold of it, but that's why you go to the gym and practice making swish shots...that shoot up past the mental barrier of where the wall would be...before the regional ;) . Human player this year will be almost as critical as driver this year imho, if not more so

[KenWittlief]

but thats the thing, the ten point ball is not like any other ball

the 5 point balls will either be on the floor, or falling in mass from the overhead bin

the ten point ball is sitting there on that tee, several inches outside the playfield

any mechanism you design to collect the 5 points balls off the floor will be useless for getting the 10 point ball off that tee and onto the playfield

so you have to design a special subsystem JUST to get that ONE ball

its not worth it - its not worth the design build test debug and its really not worth the extra time in auton mode, when you could be going after something really valuable, like the 2X ball, or your moble goal

its REALLY not worth it because a mechanism that tries to capture it instead of simply knocking it off will be more complicated and therefor more likely to fail - and if you fail to knock it off the tee you have lost 45 seconds of collection time.

in fact, if a 10 point ball is on the floor during driver mode time, it would be a mistake to go after it while there are 5 point balls on the floor

when you sweep through a field of several balls with whatever collection mechanism you have design, you will get some and some will scatter

to chase one ten point ball around, while there are several 5 point balls right infront of you, by the time you get that 10 point ball you could of had several of the other ones.

Best strategy? forget about the 10 point ball- knock it off the tee to trigger the drop, then pretend it doesnt exist anymore.

[Ryan M.]

this is a good example of how you can spend a lot of time money and resources trying to make a very small improvement in your score - its not worth it
I agree, it's a lot of work to keep track of it and even if you do manage to get it to your human player, they still have to make it into the goal, which isn't a garranteed thing. So, my opinion is, get it out of play.

[Ben Mitchell]

"If you put a ten point ball in a goal and cap it, it's worth twenty

20/5 = 4

At that point, it is worth four times a normal, uncapped ball."

The game is not equal at this point, and the 10 point ball might make a difference. But when you strategically look at this, you should assume the same events happen, except that you put a 10 point all in the goal instead of a 5 point ball. So if you cap it or not, the 10 point ball is twice the point vvalue of the 5 point ball.

Let's go over it again.

A normal, uncapped ball is worth 5 points
A 10 point ball, capped, is worth 20 points

20 divided by 5 equals 4. thus, a capped, 10 point ball, is 4 times the worth of a normal, uncapped ball.

What does this mean? It means that if you gather two of these 10 point balls, and cap the goal, you have the equivalent of 8 normal balls in an uncapped goal.

So, if you are going up against a couple of bulldozers that will quickly sweep the field before you can get a majority of balls, this route will give you the point advantage.

And rather than knock them out of play, why not utilize them?

[tkwetzel]

"20 divided by 5 equals 4. thus, a capped, 10 point ball, is 4 times the worth of a normal, uncapped ball."


I do agree that your math is correct, but irrelevent to this strategy.
When you talk about strategy of what balls to get, you should leave everything else equal. IE: capped or uncapped goals. Because if you talk about capping a goal with 10 point balls verses not capping a goal with 5 point balls, then you have an extra capability with capping, that you would be able to do with either the 10 or 5 point balls, so why wouldn't you cap the 5 point goal. The strategy just about what balls to get should not concern if the goals are capped or not.

[JVN]

Let's go over it again.

A normal, uncapped ball is worth 5 points
A 10 point ball, capped, is worth 20 points

20 divided by 5 equals 4. thus, a capped, 10 point ball, is 4 times the worth of a normal, uncapped ball.

What does this mean? It means that if you gather two of these 10 point balls, and cap the goal, you have the equivalent of 8 normal balls in an uncapped goal.

So, if you are going up against a couple of bulldozers that will quickly sweep the field before you can get a majority of balls, this route will give you the point advantage.

And rather than knock them out of play, why not utilize them?
I think you are greatly overanalyzing.

A 10 point ball, is worth 2x 5 point balls.
It's pretty simple! -- 1 yellow ball = 2 purple balls
(See Ben, I can do arithmatic too!)

I do not think they will play a MAJOR factor in the way this game is played. They are only worth 2 normal balls. In 2000, Black balls were key, but they were worth FIVE normal balls (and 1/2 a hang!).

This year's "bonus balls" just don't seem like enough of a bonus to worry about. Obviously, we'll try to get them, but I'm not going to plan a strategy around them like people did in 2000.

This means, yes, I don't care if they get knocked out of bounds.
So... why just knock them out of bounds?
Because it is:
1. Easier
2. Faster
3. My robot has more important things to do during Auto-mode.

*shrug*
$.02

John

[Matt Adams]

Actually, I'm really glad that FIRST made this "mistake" in not making the 10 point ball worth more points. I think that the strategy would have IMMENSELY different had the 10 point ball really been worth 20 or 25 points.

This would have made designing a mechanism to get the 10 point balls significantly more worthwhile.

I think something that people tend to forget too is that you need to SCORE these 10 point balls. Having a strategy based around these objects which need to be shot by a human player would be VERY touchy. (Although let's admit it, many human players will be shooting 90+ %)

It's definitely fun to dream, "what if...."

Unforunately, it's game time folks. :)

Good luck,

Matt