update 8 clarification, drill motor and blue wires

[pryoplasm]

update 8 mentions something that if i cannot desolder the blue wires on the 1/2" drill motors, or at least have the wires 1.5" long, can i cut it short if i use solderless connectors?

[Biff]

update 8 mentions something that if i cannot desolder the blue wires on the 1/2" drill motors, or at least have the wires 1.5" long, can i cut it short if i use solderless connectors?
The issue is that you have to have professional level soldering skills to desolder the blue wires and resolder larger wire to the brush holders. So just don't go there. The brush holders are flimsy to say the best about them. You can shorten the blue wires to 1.5 inches and solder number 10 or larger to the shortened blue wire. First has had way to many drill motors get broken by trying to unsolder and resolder larger wire to the brush holders.

[pryoplasm]

The issue is that you have to have professional level soldering skills to desolder the blue wires and resolder larger wire to the brush holders. So just don't go there. The brush holders are flimsy to say the best about them. You can shorten the blue wires to 1.5 inches and solder number 10 or larger to the shortened blue wire. First has had way to many drill motors get broken by trying to unsolder and resolder larger wire to the brush holders.

thanks, i understand that, but i was talking about solderless terminals, the kind that you simply crimp on.....

anybody?

[kpugh]

From FIRST:
"Caution advised regarding the ½” drill motors.
You may not replace the blue wires, however, you may shorten them such that there is a minimum of 1.5 inches still attached to the motor and solder heavier gauge wire to their cut ends. Do not attempt to unsolder the blue wires from the brush housings.The plastic brush support housing will distort if exposed to soldering temperatures and the alignment of the brushes will be affected, which can permanently degrade motor performance."

This is a caution to benefit you so that teams do not accidentally destroy their motors or cause them to not perform as well. You can solder or crimp or do anything else to the blue wires as long as those blue wires are at least 1.5 inches long and still attached to the motor (having never been tampered with). This update is for our benefit!!!!

[EIROBOTICS86]

we took them off before this update so what is gonna happen

[ShadowKnight]

our team actually did the same thing, before the update regarding the wires. In order to fix the problem, we simply re-soldered the wires to the electric connects. We've run the motor qutie a bit and nothing seems to be wrong with them. We were stuck and so we just don't plan on letting the inspectors know about the little re-wiring. The rule is there to keep rookie teams from melting their motors and there realyl is no way to tell the difference between the way you soldered on the wires and the way the corporation soldered them. I would be quite careful though re-soldering those wires on...using some needlenose pliers as heatsink would be such a bad idea.

[Alavinus]

To clarify ShadowKnight's post regarding team 1123, we were going to have one of the electrical engineers on our team replace the wires to help dissipate heat to the motor (thinner wire=more resistance=more heat) Anyway, we had the wires off of one motor and then the update was issued. We then soldered the wires back onto the motor. Since FIRST did not issue this as a rule until now, we are just going to use the motor as is. We were well within the rules when we did this.

[Joe Ross]

from FIRST Q/A Section: 5.2.7 Status: Answered Date Answered: 2/5/2004
Q: Last year we SUCCESSFULLY replaced the blue wires on the drill motors under a controlled soldering process. Is this now ILLEGAL or just not advised due to the potential damage,if temperature is not carefully controlled?

A: Not illegal but ill-advised for the well intentioned novice.

[Cory]

The rule is there to keep rookie teams from melting their motors and there realyl is no way to tell the difference between the way you soldered on the wires and the way the corporation soldered them

Sorry, but youre wrong. Ive seen many many veteran teams screw up their drill motors by desoldering them. It has nothing to do with how long a team has been around, or even to some degree the skill of the person soldering. The reason they want you to avoid it, no matter how good you are, is because the extreme heat required will very easily destroy the brushes and the brush holder. It's for the same reason they tell us not to run the drill motors at their stall point. Sure, you can use a heatsink and blah blah blah blah blah... but why take the chance?

Shadownight: just because something wasn't illegal when you did it doesnt matter. Illegal means exactly that. Illegal. For example, team 68's robot last year was legal for awhile, then FIRST declared it illegal. They didnt try and put it out on the field and use it, because they knew it was illegal, even though it was legal when made.

I do agree that FIRST probably wont care if you already desoldered them and you redo the job, but that general philosophy isn't too great.

Also, new drill motors are only like 28 bucks. it might be a worthy investment, both to conform to the rules (if FIRST doesnt allow you to use your current ones) and to have as spares.

Cory

[Joe Ross]

Shadownight: just because something wasn't illegal when you did it doesnt matter. Illegal means exactly that. Illegal.

That would matter if it was illegal, but its not, see above.

[NoRemorse]

Ummmm... we ran ours, and our clamp broke free, the wires hit the table and flew off..... can we use solderless in this case?

[Cory]

Joe: that question was answered on the 5th, the update was put out on the 6th. Im inclined to believe the update, especially when it says

"You may not replace the blue wires, however, you may shorten them such that there is
a minimum of 1.5 inches still attached to the motor and solder heavier gauge wire to
their cut ends. Do not attempt to unsolder the blue wires"

Cory

[KenWittlief]

does anyone know for sure about replacement motors? I would be REALLY surprized if you purchase just the motor and it came with those same blue wires.

[Joe Ross]

Joe: that question was answered on the 5th, the update was put out on the 6th. Im inclined to believe the update, especially when it says

however, FIRST had been answering questions with that answer since January 26th. Thus, the not illegal part was already a clarification of their policy.

If someone were to ask that question again, I would strongly assume they would get the same answer. However, if someone wants to do it, they should ask that question again.

Ken, if you order the motors from MMH, they will have the blue wires, since they are just a distributor for FIRST. I do not know if they come with the blue wires if you order them directly from Bosch, but I would guess so also. Remember, it is small wire, but with very high rated insulation.

[ShadowKnight]

I phrased my previous post somewhat badly, and for that I apologize. We followed the rules as we read them. Dean said that this year we're to use common sense in order to interpret the rules, following the spirit and not so much the letter of the law. It was asked in the Q and A if we could do what we did and it was confirmed at that time that we could re-solder the wires on. I will ask again and if we were in error, I will personally fork over the money to purchase new drill motors and will personally re-install them. However, I still do not believe that we were in error and that we are following the rules as designated by FIRST.

On a side note, I did not intend to indicate in anyway that it's ok to re-solder the drill motors simply because inspectors would have a hard time telling the difference and would probably pass by inspection. Doing such an act would violate the spirit of FIRST and would be wrong.

[Joe Johnson]

does anyone know for sure about replacement motors? I would be REALLY surprized if you purchase just the motor and it came with those same blue wires.
I bought motors right from Bosch. They come with the blue wires.

Joe J.

[philipprogramer]

ok, i'm still in the dark... Is it legal or not to desolder the wires, first they say it isn't then it is now i'm confused

[fox46]

Ahem.. Um....well.. you see, they sorta- "desoldered" themselves... We were running ours, and they melted the solder and fell off, so we've been using our own solderless connectors- what would be the ruling on this? Should we risk destroying our motors by resoldering them? Personally I would consider using the stock blue wires FIRE AND SAFETY HAZARDS :ahh: As the can get extremely hot. 12Gauge wire will NOT handle 40 Amps of current!! This seems a little "non-engineer like" of FIRST, :confused:

[sanddrag]

12Gauge wire will NOT handle 40 Amps of current!! This seems a little "non-engineer like" of FIRST, :confused:Just like 50 Amp battery connectors will not handle the 120 amps that can pass through the breaker.

[Adam Y.]

As the can get extremely hot. 12Gauge wire will NOT handle 40 Amps of current!! This seems a little "non-engineer like" of FIRST,
Do a little search. There are discussions about how the blue wires will carry the current of the motors. The wires I believe are designed differntly from normal gauge wire. Also if you wires are desoldering themselves then you have more serious problems then those two wires falling off. The drill motors possibly may be damaged internally. They never got that hot for our team.

[Wetzel]

FIRST really made a mess when they titled that paragraph 'Caution advised regarding the ½” drill motors.'

They then proceed to say "You may not replace the blue wires," and "Do not attempt to unsolder the blue wires".

Is it a cautionary advisory, or a rule?

All the QA has been that it is a strong advisory, but I guess the next update will clairify.

Wetzel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Do, or do not. There is no try.

[Dorsk65]

Last year we de-soldered the wires from both the motors (I'm not sure why, the originals should have handled) and came out with one working motor and one horribly screwed up one. I can't really describe the problem, but it was definitely because of the soldering, so I strongly reccommend avoiding soldering the wires back on.

[Andy A.]

It seems to me, a better option then soldering/desoldering would be to just take the blue wires off, file off the exsisting solder and use some crip on connectors. You avoid high heat so there is no way you can kill the motor, you eliminate the 12 gauge (yes, i know the insulation is rated high, but still...) and you keep everything on easy to swap quick disconnects.

I realize, that if the update is to be taken as a rule, this is illegal. However, if FIRST had meant this to be a rule, it would have been put into the manual through the team update. Instead, it was issued as an advisory.

My take on it is thus: You may do what ever you please to the wires short of replacing them with smaller wires. However, you have been warned, and don't expect FIRST to be sympathetic when you complain about the new motors not being robust.

I plan on testing some crimp on connectors on last years drill motors. Assuming I can get the solder off with out trouble and the connections are good, I'll consider doing the same on this years motors. Unless some one can convince me that FIRST is going to consider that advisory a rule, it seems the best route to go.

-Andy A.

[Mark Pettit]

On the FIRST Q&A System, there have been many, many (did I say many) questions regarding the blue wires and the update. Many teams had already altered their blue wires by shortening them, removing them, resoldering them, and/or replacing them with quick connects. Most of them asked if the motors would pass inspection since they were altered prior to the update.

In ALL instances, FIRST says that these teams will still be in compliance with the rules but that such alterations to the blue wires are not recommended.