mentor involvement

[Gabriel]

This is my first year as a team leader and a group of us are trying to plan for next year. This year we've pretty much had students design and build everything, but we're wondering how much mentor involvement is acceptable as we plan for next year.

Is it okay for students to talk about strategy and the basic design and for mentors to essentially build the robot off of that design?

How about for students to come up with the basic design for a particular subsystem (say an arm) and then for mentors to go build it without student involvement?

How about for students to come up with very specific plans (say a very accurate CAD drawing) and then for a machine shop to build off of those plans?

I know that there sometimes is a trade-off between the quality of the final product and what the students get out of the project. It seems fair that when its absolutely down to the wire and you have to ship a robot in order to fulfill your commitments to your sponsors student involvement takes a back seat, but what if a team were to plan up front that engineers were to build either one subsystem or the entire robot in order to create a better quality product? Does it matter whether its a rookie team or a team that's been around forever? Are there any possible sanctions against that team?

I have some experience on teams that were fairly repressive (and successful - at least with the robot) but I only have a very limited experience and I'm the only member of my team who is a FIRST veteran - I'm curious what others have experienced and what advice both students and mentors can offer a rookie team trying to figure out how to organize itself for next year.

[NateBot16]

528's bot is entirely student built. Our mentors (teachers) help with prototyping and pointing out possible problem areas, but everything else is ours. From design to construction, its all on us. The only thing that is not done by us is the CNC things that we have made, but we supply the drawlings and such. Our mentors basically make sure we don't cut our fingers off, but seriously, they are a great resource for information.

[KenWittlief]

I have found over the (seven) years that you need to start out with new students, with the mentors doing everything, showing how its all done - and at whatever level they can most students will pickup on what you are doing quickly, and you can then step back and let them finish

this is true for all the subsystems, mechanical, electrical wiring, writing the SW, the pneumatics

there will always be some things that mentors need to step in and check, or fix (for some reason last year most of our students were afraid to tighten screws and bolts up like they needed to be, and we were constantly finding loose fasteners)

its a balance that you have to re-discover with your team every year.

Just remember the #1 rule for mentors "Dont let your team fail - dont let them show up with a bot that wont pass inspection or wont run - even if you have to spend the last 4 days before shipping there to make it happen".

there is no penalty for having the adults build the whole machine, and letting the students just watch - in fact, I know of one team several years ago where one adult built the WHOLE robot behind closed doors, then handed it over to the students a few days before the ship date

and there are also teams where the adults never touch the bot at all, and the students do everything - most teams are somewhere in the middle.

[Kevin Sevcik]

*dons fire retardant suit and climbs into bunker to shelter from the coming holy war*

This issue is one of high contention in the FIRST community. You'll find teams that run the gamut from 100% student built to 100% engineer built and everything inbetween. So to answer your original question, any level of engineer involvement is "acceptable."

I think the real question here is how much involvement is right for your team. Every team is different, and everyone on that team have different reasons for being there. I think the most productive thing you could do in this area is to sit down with your teammates, mentors, and sponsors if at all possible and have a nice long discussion about why you're all their and what you want out of it. Especially the sponsors, they pay the money, so they should have some say. If you can get in touch with a high up person in any company that sponsors you, I think you'll find they have rather well considered opinions on the issue.

In any case, all that matters is that your team is happy with the amount of involvement. You're there to be inspired and possibly learn something about engineering. This can't happen if large parts of the team (students or mentors) are sulking because of this arrangement.

[ngreen]

Mentors are there to inspire the students in whatever way they can. If the team is unexperienced a mentor may be more of a teacher by showing the students how to do something. This was the case with our programming last year. We had a mentor who was well qualified and students who were unexperienced. If students have more confidence in a skill they complete the task while the mentor supervises. Both our chassis have been welded by students. When it comes to design decision, everyone on the team gets a vote and gets the oppurtunity to offer design ideas. In some cases the students offer an idea and mentors build off if. Sometime a mentor will have an idea and the students will make improvements to it. By all having a say in the final product it creates a sense of pride within the team. We all designed and built this. This sense is even extended to the parents. I think a good mix builds a strong team. You can build a really good robot with only students or only engineers but a mix of people creates the sense of community that is present throughout FIRST, in both these forums and the competitions.

[aaronbr28040]

The mentors on our team are great, I dont know where we would be without them. They believe that we should design the robot and come to them with the problems and when we need help. They also keep an eye on us to make sure that our designs are feasible since they are the ones with the engineering degrees. This past weekend the school that I attend (its a statewide magnet school and we live on campus) had an extended weekend and the rest of the school went home but some of us decided to stay to work on the robot. It ended up that one of the engineers was sick the entire weekend, I dont know where we would be now without his calls everyday with what his thoughts were and where he thought we should be. Having someone there who has project management skills is essential to building a reliable robot and putting together a good team.

[pras870]

Personally, I disagree with either 100% student or engineer/mentor designed/built robots. FIRST is all about cooperation and working with the students, the engineers, and the entire community for that part. Engineers are there to guide the students and help with problems that they're expertise, education and experience. Students are there to learn from whoever can help them in achieving their goals (whether it's design, machining, programming, or even fund raising). If the students do all the work, then they're not getting the experience from the engineers (they may have a basic idea, and the engineers can expand upon and better that idea). If the engineers do all the work, then the students simply sit around and watch what is happening and don't get a lot of interaction or experience. The key to first has always been cooperation between these two medians to build the best machine possible, and for both sides to benefit.

Most engineers sit around all day designing and thinking. Students don't get to meet engineers everyday, and if they do, many don't get to know what it takes to be an engineer and the work that is involved. FIRST lets the engineers react with the people that will be replacing them in the not so distant feature, not only that, but they get to see the joy on the students faces when they see what they accomplished. Students get to meet the people they may one day become, and have a chance to see if that is really what they want to do with the rest of their lives, after 1 on 1 interaction day in and day out.

Lastly, I'd like the thank our engineer/machinist Ron for all his dedication to our team the past 3 years. Without him, many of our idea's would not come to life. He is a true inspiration to me. After seeing everything he's machined for us because we don't have the equipment is truely amazing (a lot of it he does personally himself). No idea is ever shot down, and if it is not good enough ro wrong, he calmy explains why. He is truely what FIRST is about, and I thank him.

[Ken Leung]

I disagree, FIRST is about Inspiration, and as long as you are inspired it doesnt matter.

this topic is overly beaten to death.

As I said in another thread:

Please be careful about turning this thread into "should robot be built by 100% student", then to "there shouldn't be engineers on FIRST team building the robot", and finally "the point of FIRST is supposed to be... "

We have been through that thousands of times +1 before, among different topics. Most of them ended up becoming accusation and bashing. There is no need for that. Tell people how successful your team is, demonstrate how it is effective for YOUR school, and learn to listen other's point of view. And understand that no one way will work for every team. OK? ;-)

I ask that everyone rain negative rep points to anyone who is going to be completely negative and disrespectful in this discussion.