View Full Version : Soccer Throw or Basketball Shot?
I'm trying to find out which is the best way to shoot for both the large goal and mobile goal. I find I'm a little more accurate by using the soccer throw on the large goal. On the mobile goal, however, the basketball style shot is much easier because of the lack of a large backboard.
What are other teams doing and any thoughts?
Basketball would be better....more arc is better....the soccer through might go through...the best way we've found, it will be difficult for competition though, is a one bounce approach. We can make 75%+ of our shots easy. We have a 11 foot ceiling where we practice so we have been using the one bounce and the soccer throw. We need a higher ceiling so we could do more of a basketball shot. We've already hit the ceiling tiles several times and since our building is borrowed and ceiling in good condition we're careful not to try and hit it.
OneAngryDaisy
10-02-2004, 23:47
I still say toss it underhand like Rick Barry.. I mean, hey, the man is one of the all-time leaders for NBA free throw shots...
That is true, but how far back would you have to stand to throw it underhand and get it over the barrier?
easiest answer: do what you feel you're most comfortable with.
randomtask108
11-02-2004, 10:11
Our team's field is in a closed room so we can only throw socor style intill we bring it out doors, other wise we hit a fire alarm or two :p but i would most likley presume that basketball style with an arc is excelent for the four foot by far, but we have no choice to throw soccor style.... and only few pop out the back, but we have trained people for both....
Liz Smith
11-02-2004, 10:33
I've been practicing with soccer style throws and have been pretty successful... probably because I've been playing soccer for 10 years and basketball never. But other shooters on our team have been equally successful with basketball throws.
Sachiel7
11-02-2004, 10:49
Soccer for the stationary. We have 2 soccer players on our team, they didn't miss a single shot. As for the mobiles, we're mainly bringing them back and dumping them over. If you wanted to shoot it from a distace though, I'm not sure. Is the PVC flexible enough (like zone zeal) to get a ball through if tossed hard enough? If so, just do a hard soccer shot at the mobiles.
Otherwise, do something (maybe granny shot?) that uses 2 arms for good control.
Shot put. Higher arc and greater ability to come straight down into the goal versus a flatter trajectory.
Soccer for the stationary. We have 2 soccer players on our team, they didn't miss a single shot. As for the mobiles, we're mainly bringing them back and dumping them over. If you wanted to shoot it from a distace though, I'm not sure. Is the PVC flexible enough (like zone zeal) to get a ball through if tossed hard enough? If so, just do a hard soccer shot at the mobiles.
Otherwise, do something (maybe granny shot?) that uses 2 arms for good control.
Really, you can do a soccer throw. You must have a taller ceiling than we do, 11 feet. When we try soccer throw, especially when the goal is over half full, we put them easily through the pvc and bouncy all over the shop near sharp pointy metal, luckily we haven't popped one yet. You must have more height to work with if they didn't miss a shot.
Matt Adams
11-02-2004, 11:40
Definitely discus style. Get a full revolution going to wind up, and you can get it in all the way across the field, so distance is irrelavent. It's the obvious choice from a physics standpoint.
We have our high schoolers training between 3 and 4 hours a day on doing this, and have 5 track coaches from local high schools perfecting their steps. They're shooting about 95% from 24 feet into the mobiles
Stand back when 461 come out to play.
Matt
Gabe Salas Jr.
11-02-2004, 11:46
easiest answer: do what you feel you're most comfortable with.
I have to agree with pras870. Although personally I feel that there is better control of the ball with the soccer style throw. But I have been practicing more often with the basketball style throw because its a bit easier to throw at a higher arc.
On an interesting note, I have been trying to imitate a throw one of girls on our team has been practicing and with good success. Since she is a bit short, she tends to hit the top of the lexan barrier. So what she would do is hop once (I guess to build momentum or rhythm), and on her second hop, toss the ball soccer style (while in the air) and balance her weight by lifting up her left leg (sort of in a fashion that a girl would do when she is on her tippy toes and would bend there knee backwards at a 90 degree angle) then land with both feet. I think that sounds right. I wish I could be a bit more articulate. Regardless. So yea... I have been practicing at throwing like a girl. Ha ha.
Collin Fultz
11-02-2004, 11:57
on another note but kind of similar:
has anybody tried herding those balls into the chutes? i don't have our field done all the way yet, but i'm close, and i think it's gonna take a lot of control to put the balls in the chute. you only have 3" vert. clearance minus whatever that lip ends up being. it seems to me like it would be very difficult to do. so: a good human player can get you points, but a good robot is needed too.
as per the question at hand...soccer it to me.
an answer to my question...it's a lot harder than i think most people were thinking it would be to herd balls. they have to be rolled quite slowly and with about zero bounce to go in the chute...good luck to all the ball herders!
maddaleeni
11-02-2004, 11:57
I think that a basketball shot work better. Because we have been practicing in a gym and it has a high roof. I have bben finding that a basketball shot is easy to through over the barrier and if u put a back spin on the ball it doesn't go through the back. Also if you put a high arc on the ball it help it stay in the goal because u can get it in both goal because you dont rally need the back post.
Heretic121
13-02-2004, 00:10
i dont think ive posted on this before hahaha
personally i have been playing soccer for at least 8 years, and its just so natural to throw soccer style... the past week or so i found a way and point to let go earlier than normal to give the ball more arc and a little spin to make it drop down off the pipes...
also in the end its going to depend on how STURDY the pipes are at the Comp. if they are tighter than our fields are i can easily drain them without a hitch... so far ive got up to 33 in a row, but i barely help w/ the bot (i think today was the first day ive helped for more than an hour hahaha been doing animation too =/)
*edit* also!!! when you are throwing the first 2 or 3 balls in w/ the basketball throw i have seen some of my teamates to BOUNCE the ball back out of the pipes!!! kinda wierd and funny to =D
on another note but kind of similar:
has anybody tried herding those balls into the chutes? i don't have our field done all the way yet, but i'm close, and i think it's gonna take a lot of control to put the balls in the chute. you only have 3" vert. clearance minus whatever that lip ends up being. it seems to me like it would be very difficult to do. so: a good human player can get you points, but a good robot is needed too.
as per the question at hand...soccer it to me.
an answer to my question...it's a lot harder than i think most people were thinking it would be to herd balls. they have to be rolled quite slowly and with about zero bounce to go in the chute...good luck to all the ball herders!
Yeah, It's not an easy task to get the ball into the corrals. They short, narrow and the aren't very deep. Any bounce misalignment or too much speed can throw your chance of sucessfully keeping it in the goal off. The two best ways I've seen to have maximum control of the balls is either gather them in a hopper of sorts and release them straight into the goal or use some type of pool stick device. I'm very interested in the second way but haven't found a successful way to make this happen. It relies on more speed than the cyclinder can give and I haven't figured a good mechanical way to do this yet. If anyone is using this way to so call kick the ball into the corral I would be interested in how. One of the most interesting ideas I've thought of is a octagonal crab drive robot in which each side plate pops out 4-6 inches. I would call it the puffer fish bot. The ultimate ball controller. Maximum mobility and barring no obstruction it could make shots from the opposite corral. And it could make 45 degree angled shots to. Oh I would so have loved this robot.
Sachiel7
13-02-2004, 11:21
If you want to shoot the balls, why not try a paddle?
Just set up a small piston at the top of a paddle, with a pivot close to the piston. Smaller pistons are quicker, and if you set it up right, it could give the balls enough snap to roll them in.
If you want to shoot the balls, why not try a paddle?
Just set up a small piston at the top of a paddle, with a pivot close to the piston. Smaller pistons are quicker, and if you set it up right, it could give the balls enough snap to roll them in.
Yeah
The piston are to slow. I tried a 3/4" bore, 4" stroke piston (fairly small) and it wasn't quick enough.
The paddle might work somewhat but it also might lift the ball so it bounces instead of of rolls. I would prefer a straight out linear quick 4-6" movement instead of any rotational force.
Creating sometype of spring system might work but if you got that much force and speed they might think it is dangerous.
To see what my thoughts are first take a pole or plate and use it like a pool stick or a plate evenly moving out at about 6"-7" inches off the ground (mid-ball). After you've done this hold it perpendicular to the ground, make a pivot point with one hand and rotate the bar and hit the ball. If is too easy to ride up on a ball or get one stuck in the mechanism. As you change the angle of the mechanism you'll hit the ground, ride up on the ball, or make the ball fly.
The reason this is my dream robot is because it take care of these problems but I can figure a good way to make it happen.
Great in concept hard to implement. But that's engineering sometimes.
Collin Fultz
13-02-2004, 12:02
Yeah, It's not an easy task to get the ball into the corrals. They short, narrow and the aren't very deep. Any bounce misalignment or too much speed can throw your chance of sucessfully keeping it in the goal off. The two best ways I've seen to have maximum control of the balls is either gather them in a hopper of sorts and release them straight into the goal or use some type of pool stick device. I'm very interested in the second way but haven't found a successful way to make this happen. It relies on more speed than the cyclinder can give and I haven't figured a good mechanical way to do this yet. If anyone is using this way to so call kick the ball into the corral I would be interested in how. One of the most interesting ideas I've thought of is a octagonal crab drive robot in which each side plate pops out 4-6 inches. I would call it the puffer fish bot. The ultimate ball controller. Maximum mobility and barring no obstruction it could make shots from the opposite corral. And it could make 45 degree angled shots to. Oh I would so have loved this robot.
i agree that the hopper would probably be the best idea...however, these balls behave unlike any object i've seen in a FIRST game as of late. the soccer balls were fairly reliable and the crate were...well...crates. unless you're rolling them with some tig ole wings, i'm not sure if anything else is gonna be that successful. but i don't know...i haven't experimented that much. i guess we'll see. as for the pool cue...too unreliable...you'd have to be lined up perfectly which is much easier said than done.
Lil' Lavery
19-02-2004, 22:37
Do whatever the human player is the best at. Ours does a jump shot, soccer hybrid thing. Also, note that bouncing isnt reliable, cus their will be balls and robots running around on the field, so it might hit something. Plus the flexability of te goalposts allows shots to go in from the front. In other words, PRACTICE, and find which one is the best.
Beth Sweet
19-02-2004, 22:44
If you can do basketball, its better, more accurate, but if you can't get the power, you gotta stick with the soccer throw.
Lil' Lavery
19-02-2004, 22:55
f you can do basketball, its better, more accurate, but if you can't get the power, you gotta stick with the soccer throw.
We've found it to be quite the opposite. The basketball is more pwerful, the soccer more accurate. The best of all is just heaving it with one hand, LOTS of power, good accuracy IF you can keep it centered on your hand. Most of the time it will roll off the side or the top while you throw, sending spirling off in a random direction. Oh yeah, punting has power, not nearly enough accuracy, plus it endangers the field, jusdges and spectator(well the ones at arena side anyway), so youll probably get DQed for it.
Yan Wang
19-02-2004, 23:24
Our best human players have all thrown it with soccer throws... Nathan, Casey, and I were testing it and soccer-style is the only consistent way for the stationary goal. We got 20, 18, and 18 in a row consecutively with that (haven't tried any more). Then when we tried shooting 12 in 30 seconds (been practicing speed now), the soccer dominated even more because it didn't require as much time to get the feel of it before shooting. The basketball shot was only useful for the mobile goal when you actually needed an arc.
i agree that the hopper would probably be the best idea...however, these balls behave unlike any object i've seen in a FIRST game as of late. the soccer balls were fairly reliable and the crate were...well...crates. unless you're rolling them with some tig ole wings, i'm not sure if anything else is gonna be that successful. but i don't know...i haven't experimented that much. i guess we'll see. as for the pool cue...too unreliable...you'd have to be lined up perfectly which is much easier said than done.
It would be a cue coupled to a solid plate that is what hits the ball. It wouldn't have to be super accurate.
I prefer soccer style. Some people on the team prefer basketball. Do whatever you like.
Sscamatt
21-02-2004, 22:47
I have found that if you throw it soccer style the ball has a tendency to slip through the backposts on the stationary goal. Today at the UTC scrimmage seems like most people are throwing bastketball style and its working fine
I have found that if you throw it soccer style the ball has a tendency to slip through the backposts on the stationary goal. Today at the UTC scrimmage seems like most people are throwing bastketball style and its working fine
Today I was messing around and I prefer soccer style on empty stationary goals but on a full goal a single bounce method is superior. You can get at least 2 more ball in the goal than soccer style. I need more height to work with though. If that ceiling wasn't there I would assume basketball shot would work good for the empty goal but I still like the bouncing method to finish out the goal. But your doing really good if you have to do that. 15+ balls. By what scrimmage people are saying, that will be hard.
Heretic121
22-02-2004, 00:15
at quincy today... i still have not seen the potential of either shot or its advantages or disadvantages... they were all "heavy" non offical balls, and A LOT of them were going straight throught the back... and that has never happend on our own teams field with the lighter ball and the pvc is A LOT looser on our field also then it was at quincy... from the "human player showdown" we had, our team 121 won w/ 16/20... 2 HP's both got 10 shots one from each side... i went second and used the soccer throw... i was surprised only 1 went through the back when the goal was more full... and one popped out that was hanging on the edge between the PVC... we also figured that it can fit 18 balls comfortably w/o capping it
Soccer works best for me on the stationary goal, until it gets near full , then I do basketball shots. On the small goal I use Basketball only.
I prefer the soccer throw, though my brother--the other human player--prefers basketball style.
I also like baseball style...for certain...tricks...that we have up our sleeve.
:D
--Petey
Jeremiah Johnson
01-03-2004, 19:09
I personally like to mix it up a little bit. If we are on the left side, i use the basketball shot. The right is the soccer throw. You know it's just the better I feel on each side.
jacob_dilles
01-03-2004, 19:53
we started traning our team with the soccer throw, the balls were going thrugh the PVC at the top. so now its kinda bothish watever works. heh so much for techneque
Heretic121
01-03-2004, 23:38
petey... im quite intrigued on your "tricks" that you have up your selve =D i have some of my own im hoping to be able to pull if there is an unlucky coincidence of both robots on our alliance or the other alliance being DQ'ed or shut down...
Gabe Salas Jr.
02-03-2004, 06:48
...I also like baseball style...for certain...tricks...that we have up our sleeve...
I think he may have stumbled upon the ARGO-shot, named after our team's human player, who has utilized this type of throw. Although it is quite similar to the "high-jump dodgeball style throw." Those of you who go to UCF, NY, and Nationals will be able to witness this spectacle; including it's proper application. :D
camtunkpa
02-03-2004, 10:04
Our team chooses to use neither soccer throw or basketball shot. We found the most accurate shooting comes from a volleyball set. This was a good thing for us to practice too because one of our mentors also happens to be the girls volleyball coach at our high school. That's just a team 222 outlook on things.... we're always thinking outside the box. good luck to all.
Its football throw for 564. Yup Im not kidding. And yes he's the only person we have that actually plays a sport besides another person.
Heretic121
02-03-2004, 20:57
i have a quick question on the volleyball set... i too did play volleyball for my HS freshman year, but isnt there a lot of bounce off of the balls when there is about 12-14 in there?? i mean wouldnt they just bounce out from there? and what about the movable goal? its hard to keep the balls in there even with a soccer throw...
jacob_dilles
02-03-2004, 21:23
i have a quick question on the volleyball set... i too did play volleyball for my HS freshman year, but isnt there a lot of bounce off of the balls when there is about 12-14 in there?? i mean wouldnt they just bounce out from there? and what about the movable goal? its hard to keep the balls in there even with a soccer throw...
from our experence the balls are pretty static once they get in the goal. it seems that the elasticity of the PVC keeps them where they are. the ones that bounce the most are the first couple
camtunkpa
02-03-2004, 22:07
The purpose of the set is to get a good arc on the ball as you know from volleyball. As the goal fills our human players adjust and put less arc on the ball.....like if you're gonna make a quick and low set to catch a team off guard with your hit. We have had some great accuracy and we found our students could shoot better this way.
I think he may have stumbled upon the ARGO-shot, named after our team's human player, who has utilized this type of throw. Although it is quite similar to the "high-jump dodgeball style throw." Those of you who go to UCF, NY, and Nationals will be able to witness this spectacle; including it's proper application. :D
If you speak of what I think you do, than yes, that is one of our tricks. We had more trouble implementing it on the smaller one rather than on the larger one.
Of course, all of our practicing is somewhat moot, because the comp balls are differant than the balls we got for our team. I'll have to work today to see what is happening.
I'll give you a hint--it involves a baseball type throw and doing something to an opponent's stationary goal that cannot be done with our small-ball-manipulating-only robot. It worked during our practice at our high school...I'll see today if it still works at Manchvegas.
Cheers,
--Petey
Its football throw for 564. Yup Im not kidding. And yes he's the only person we have that actually plays a sport besides another person.
Football throw? I assume you mean a baseball throw one handing launching thing.
Hmmm...interesting. How did you accomplish that on the practice field with the heavier balls without splitting apart your PVC uprights? The back two were constantly falling apart for us, I know.
I'm interested to see the human players this year. We weren't a team three years ago with the soccer ball game, but my team went to bash at the beach, an offseason comp. Last year, the human player job could be done by just about anyone. It doesn't seem so easy this year. My (freshman) brother and I are the human players, and we both play football and baseball. He plays basketball as well. We're the closest to jocks that our team has, I suppose, although I'm not sure you can call anyone on a robotics team a jock :D
--Petey
Gabe Salas Jr.
04-03-2004, 07:22
Of course, all of our practicing is somewhat moot, because the comp balls are differant than the balls we got for our team. I'll have to work today to see what is happening.
It is difficult to pull off this shot with the competition balls. Requires precise accuracy, and a lot of power behind that ball in order to successfully pull it off. This is mainly because the competition balls is lighter, and more durable than the "spare" balls we have been using. Someone is bound to do it, or at least try to do it at one of the regionals.
Heretic121
07-03-2004, 16:55
i saw a few shot put throws at BAE but where somewhat un effective because the balls were so slippery... basketball somewhat dominated over the soccer style because they were slippery and by pushing you had more grip... with soccer, at least for me... the first day & 1/2 i had to re-adjust to the balls and then switch again for the last day or so... so you HAVE to be able to change your style due to the balls starting to rub on the carpet...
Usman - Theory6
15-03-2004, 11:37
i'm from team 1241 and shooting the balls like basketballs seemed to work really well for us.
danield710
15-03-2004, 14:59
i prefer the basketball shot, mainly because i play basketball and it just comes easier to me, but what i noticed with the soccer throw was that the ball was slipping mroe and it would go out the back of the goal, with the basketball shot u can put more arc on the shot, i shot 5/6 with the basketball shot
nicole839
23-03-2004, 14:54
i have a similar question. i'm from team 839 up in agawam mass. and i'm in charge of human players. i'm not one myself but i run the practices and work with the strategy team. we have both a movable and a stationary goal built and an 8ft wall to shoot over. i'm curious as to how i should have the human players run practice shots. most of them do throw soccer style and all of them shoot with at least 65% accuracy. but i want to do better than we've been doing as we head to WPI and Beantown for post seasons. any suggestions?
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