Critical and picky - here I go again. [Archive]

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Andy Baker

16-02-2004, 22:27

OK, it's time for uncle Andy to get on his soapbox and dish it out a bit.

*takes deep breath*

OK, there are some know-it-alls who are posting some critical crap about other people's robots need to stop (I'll give you the reason why below). When a team puts out a picture of their robot, there seems to be a growing group of people who say things like this:

"it looks good, but does it work?"
"that part looks too heavy, you need to lose weight"
"that ratio looks way off. you should try... (yada yada)"

Everyone has the right to post what they want, but you need to realize that what you write here may impact your team when it comes time to competition. I have seen many times where there is a person giving out criticism left and right, and then they are suprised that their whole team is ignored at a competition.

Plus... you are being downright rude. If you are trying to just knock someone's design that they have worked on for the past 5 weeks, then you are just being mean. If you are honestly trying to point things out that you feel will help this team out, then save it for a PM. My guess is that many are doing this just to be clever and you think you are funny. You're not.

Also, I am guessing that many of you who are being critical have not posted any pics of your 'bot yet. When you do, I don't think that you would enjoy people asking "does that work?".

So, think before you post. If you have constructive critiques for the image poster, they why don't you PM them instead of trying to embarass them in front of the CD community? What is the point of trying to point out their mistakes? If you are truly trying to help them, just send a PM. If you just want to knock them down, save it for the playing field. Soon, you will realize that your critical opinions are a minority in FIRST. If you are not understanding what I am saying, wait a few weeks and experience a regional... I assume that it will be your first.

If you disagree with me, flame away... I can take it.

Andy B.

Crop-Circles

16-02-2004, 22:36

Too true.
However, I don't think that all posts like this are meant to be critical. I know that when our team experiences a problem and I see another team that accomplished what we could not, I would like to know how. I'm not disagreeing with you, I just wanted to point out that not all of these posts are meant to bash robots. Sometimes people just need to be carefull how they word things.

OneAngryDaisy

16-02-2004, 22:42

wait a few weeks and experience a regional...

This is not just true for rookies, but also for veteran teams. I myself know last year the majority of my team believed that the game would be all about stacking. But hey, look at what happened, stacking was minimal.

The robots that get bashed the most might be the most successful ones. I see it this way, you're commenting on something when you don't really know what the game is. Nobody knows what the game will be like until the first set of regionals actually starts.

Overall, I like what Andy is thinking.. I sometimes am guilty of this, we all are, but we should either keep our negative thoughts to ourselves or find a 'nicer' way to express them..

Tyler Olds

16-02-2004, 22:46

:::Claps hands:::

Couldn't agree with you more Andy.

No robot will ever be 100% perfect (no matter how great you think your bot is), so please commend the people that have posted pictures.

I think a lot of the problem is wording. Like Andy said, "think before you post". Saying something like (using example from team 1067 awesome marble wheels) "Wow! That’s truly amazing, how's it handle the carpet?" Is a heck of a lot better than saying "Those marble are not going to get any traction, you should use something else". Note: I am just making a general example, and not actually commenting about 1067's wheels at all (though they are really cool).

So please think before you post, it will give you, your team, and the FIRST community a much better reputation.

- My 2.56487 cents.

Joel Glidden

16-02-2004, 22:50

It's a pretty good post, Andy, but how much does that thing weigh?!

Tom Bottiglieri

16-02-2004, 22:57

andy = 11 green boxes
you = 1

Joe Matt

16-02-2004, 22:59

I have seen many times where there is a person giving out criticism left and right, and then they are suprised that their whole team is ignored at a competition.

Oh so true. But I guess I can say I'm part of that group. I'd admit this, I can be a pain. I know. Sorry guys. But back onto the topic.

If you have the time and energy to critique another team's robots parts and it's weight, etc, then I think you might want to work with your bot now. Lets keep our little noses out of other teams till the ship-date, then we can have REAL fun. Tehehehe :cool:

JVN

16-02-2004, 23:03

flame away... I can take it.
Flame, flame, flame, flame, flame...

Seriously though.
Baker's 200% right (a rare occurance, I know ;)).
This exact topic has been bugging me for the past few weeks.

It's one thing to be inquisitive:
"Wow, how much does that weigh? How did you get that to work!?"

It's another thing to be degrading:
"Too heavy. That'll never work unless you blah blah..."

And something Andy left out, my favorite is always:
"We thought of that... but decided it was stupid/heavy/not for us..."
If you ever find yourself typing those words, or similar words... unless they are immediately followed with "But this is awesome! We couldn't have done it this well!" just stop.

Andy--
You're gearbox will never work. We thought of a ball drive, but decided it was impractical. Techno-wang? we can do it better. ;)
*salutes*

JVN

Andy Baker

16-02-2004, 23:04

It's a pretty good post, Andy, but how much does that thing weigh?!

andy = 11 green boxes
you = 1

FYI, Joel told a joke. It was pretty funny too.

AB

Amanda Morrison

16-02-2004, 23:04

Things have been so negative on these forums lately... your grandmothers would all CRINGE. Can you believe what we've heard so far?

Comes down to this:

-Please follow the guidelines of 'constructive criticism' if you have criticism at all.
-Say what you would only say to your own team. If you are going to question someone else's ethics or team skills, you should be able to question your own.
-If you have something particularly biting to say that you think NEEDS to be said publicly, feel free to confront a team at a regional. If you would have trouble saying it to their face, don't say it here.
-THINK before you SPEAK. Don't overreact. Come back to the forums an hour or two after you read a thread, and make sure you consider all arguments or comments when posting.
-It'll never hurt to say something privately to a team first before saying it publicly.

and last but not least: STAY POSITIVE!

We're all in this for the long haul! We like this program, we like what it's doing. We like helping. We like inspiring. We like playing with power tools, stripping wire, or just stripping for alliance partners... We're all students, mentors, parents, peers, people. We all have things in common. If you wouldn't like it said to you, don't say it.

/edit: I didn't say I was the one stripping for an alliance partner! That all came from what I read in this thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=104825&postcount=8) ... before my time. :rolleyes:

ZACH P.

16-02-2004, 23:24

I highly agree with you Andy. Besides being downright mean, a lot of things are said here just to boost ther poster's ego by hurting others it seems. That is definatly not the way to go. I mean if you dont have something postive or useful to contribute, then why waste you energy to post it?

We like playing with power tools, stripping wire, or just stripping for alliance partners...

That last part is intruiging... :yikes:

Heretic121

16-02-2004, 23:43

I personally think that some of the critical statements are over taken or taken the wrong way and or blown way out of poportion. i am not in any way shape or forum dissagreeing with the big man andy on his post, i agree with it =D, but ithink that someof it some of what is said can be just taken the wrong way. i still do think though some people can tone down the way they come out from thier posts...

and i completely agree with zach p... that last part is VERY very intriguing =D

*edit* also... by the way... i do not want to sound mean, or arguative or anything... but why does one individual impact a team? i mean it could be some freshman trying to make a joke and trying to act cool, and most of the time a team does not agree with one another also... so... can someone clairify this for me please...

abeD

16-02-2004, 23:52

just learned about it in psychology (knew that class was good for somethin), and its really just about having the support of your peers means more to most people than anything else. Having one person on these forums say something bad about their robot can be very demoralizing and the opposite is true.

Not that much on topic but in a study when canadian college students were asked what was the most tramautic event in their childhoold only 9% mentioned their parents while 37% mentioned something peer related. (from the psych book lol)

Rich Wong

17-02-2004, 00:05

True.

Actually, I've seen less negativity this year than last year. (maybe I have not been reading enough...)
I felt last year was the worst. I remember it got really ugly at some moments.....

Even KenL had to criticize some of the CD members for virtual mud slinging.
:rolleyes:

Gary Dillard

17-02-2004, 10:26

OK, I'm taking the opposing view (how stupid can I be to oppose Andy Baker) - I value Andy's opinion more than my own but I need to chime in on this.

If it's a question of the tone or the manner the criticism is presented, I agree - need to be careful in word selection. Unfortunately one of the limits of written critique is you can't tell what's a positive comment and what's negative since there's no voice inflection or facial expression.

However - I have been a design engineer for over twenty years and lead engineer for the past several. There is one point I hammer home to young engineers when we go into our design reviews both at work and on the team - don't become emotionally attached to your design. The intent of a design review is to improve the design, not to tell you what a great job you did. Sometimes that's a tweak; sometimes it means start over.

You should look at this as an opportunity to defend your design in a positive manner (without getting defensive), but don't be afraid or embarrassed to say you don't know or you didn't consider something. Here's some ways to respond:

"it looks good, but does it work?"

We built a prototype and it moved (pulled, turned, etc.) better than we expected.
It was a little slow but we changed the bearings and it's running very well now.

"that part looks too heavy, you need to lose weight"

My budget for this part was 6.5 pounds and I'm under that.
We needed this part to be robust because it's right in the front.

"that ratio looks way off. you should try... (yada yada)"

I checked my calculations again and we're operating well down on the power curve.
I checked my calculations again and it was a little high but the next size wouldn't fit in the envelope.

At the end of the process I frequently have changed the entire design because I liked someone elses ideas, and just as frequently I have considered all the critique and decided I was correct and pressed on. Either way, when you get to competition and something works well you can be proud of it.

Adam Y.

17-02-2004, 11:06

"it looks good, but does it work?"
"that part looks too heavy, you need to lose weight"
"that ratio looks way off. you should try... (yada yada)"
Those were the same questions we were talking about our robot and yet you didn't even see it yet.:) Anyway I usually ask the first question when I don't know how something works. Im not trying to be critical. Then I usually ask design questions just to see why those choose to go one way or another.

KyleGilbert45

17-02-2004, 11:14

I see there being criticism and constructive criticism. Most comments I have seen are criticism, as they do not give very much thought or reason into a questin they are asking about a picture/robot.

It seems like everytime a robot picture or teaser gets up loaded it is the same 2 or 3 people asking questions about it too. If you wanna know information I see that PM'ing the uploader of the picture to be the best option that way you do not clog the portal page with threads says "Ohhh I like" or "Yeah, but i dont like..." etc etc etc.....

I totally agree with Andy on this matter and feel PM's should be used when responding to most images uploaded to this site.

Matt Adams

17-02-2004, 11:35

"that ratio looks way off. you should try... (yada yada)"
I'll be open and say that I've tried to help out some teams in the past few weeks by showing some quick math to help adjust some gear ratios.

Last year was VERY painful for us because our gear ratios were so poor. We were tripping breakers left and right, and we couldn't figure out why. It was incredibly embarassing.

I wish somebody would have just pointed and said, "Hey Matt, that's geared wrong! Switch those sprockets to 25 tooth and you'll be all set. Here's the math to support it."

Figuring out the right gear ratio is something that's so important, I try to help teams avoid the heartache we had last year- by saying something before the competition starts. I believe for many teams, the $60 or $70 in sprockets they'll need to replace so they can compete at a reasonable level may be worth a little ego bruising. I try to show math that would help support other teams that may have the same trouble, so everyone can learn, and avoid this sort of engineering mistake.

Often, these teams are either student run, or engineer light, and I think it's in the best interest of everyone if somebody napkin-sketches out a gear ratio corss check when it sounds funny.

However, maybe it is best left to a PM. I'd just hate to see teams go without this sort of information.

Matt

Andy Baker

17-02-2004, 11:45

People have good points on this thread. Gary and Matt's counter-points are excellent.

So... my plea to those of you who want to give advice or ask questions - follow the example that you see on these forums by having some tact and grace when you wonder if something works or if it is overweight.

It is tough to not put emotions into a design that you've worked hard on for the past 5 weeks. While being non-emotional about a deisgn is the correct thing to do, it is extremely difficult.

Andy B.

Matt Leese

17-02-2004, 11:46

I'm going to go on record as agreeing with Andy (well, there's a surprise). However, I think the problem is generally bigger than simply criticism of other team's robots. For those who've been on Chief Delphi for many years (now I feel old), the same sorts of activities have been going on for those years (I seem to remember quite a number of fights in 2001).

In my opinion, a lot of these hard feelings and fights are related to misunderstandings. It's much more difficult to convey a message in text than it is spoken. There's a lack of voice inflection; a lack of body language. It's much more difficult to tell a joke in text than it is out loud. This is doubly so when you're attempting to tease someone.

In another direction, it's important when giving criticism to give constructive criticism. Criticism is useless unless there's somewhere to go with it. It's not required that you have a solution for a problem but it is required that you phrase the criticism in such a way that the actual problem is targetted and not the person.

I think I have to disagree with Andy over the idea that all criticism should be sent through PM's. I think we all can learn quite a bit from good criticism and there's something that we can all contribute to it. The opportunity is lost if it's not constructive criticism.

Matt

D.J. Fluck

17-02-2004, 16:54

IMDWalrus

17-02-2004, 18:32

Maybe it's just me, but I think that the negativity is due (in a very LARGE part) to the end of the season rush. Even though I love being involved in FIRST, there have been a few times this week that I've wished that I had the entire week to myself...a chance to relax, instead of rushing to finish a project. As a result of that, I've been a bit irritable at times, especially when I realize just how much work is left for us to do. I know I'm not the only one that's in this boat, and that might be part of where the negativity has stemmed from.

Then again, that's just my two cents...

ngreen

17-02-2004, 19:34

I agree with that to an extent. We all can learn from criticism. Last year Matt Reiland of 226 (I think it was him) saved our butts because in one of our teasers we had a pneumatic cylinder held in place illegally, if it wasn't for him we probably wouldn't have realized it and it would have caused quite a bit of embarrassment if an inspector caught it at a regional or at the championship. Also, just this last week Paul Copioli from 217 pointed out a flawed assumption about a CVT design. That will probably save headaches and pain for that team because of that. Another good example of good criticism. I agree that certain criticisms should be posted, but again with everything you have to draw a line somewhere. As everyone else before me said use your head before you post it and if you are in doubt, I say go ahead and PM, if something good comes out of it or a problem is solved the team you helped will let you know. You all have them, so use your brains.

In cases where criticism is needed, it is important to post it to the thread and not PM for everyone can realize the design flaw and learn from it. Teams that robot get criticized in a positive manner appreciate it more than they are embarassed by the bad assumption they made. Just be careful with everything you post. It is easy to not sometimes but posting positive criticism helps everyone reading that thread.

Joe Matt

17-02-2004, 19:37

In cases where criticism is needed, it is important to post it to the thread and not PM for everyone can realize the design flaw and learn from it. Teams that robot get criticized in a positive manner appreciate it more than they are embarassed by the bad assumption they made. Just be careful with everything you post. It is easy to not sometimes but posting positive criticism helps everyone reading that thread.

I think Andy is saying that the 'That sux' and other posts like that need to stop. CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is needed. It's the one-liners that add nothing to the disucssion that needs to end.

Andy Grady

24-02-2004, 19:01

I think I have to disagree with Andy over the idea that all criticism should be sent through PM's. I think we all can learn quite a bit from good criticism and there's something that we can all contribute to it. The opportunity is lost if it's not constructive criticism.

I have to agree with Matt on this one. Though I feel it is important to be constructive when opinionating on a design, I feel that in some cases it is important for those criticisms to be made public. Especially in a case where a robot may be overlooking or breaking a rule put out by FIRST. For instance, earlier this week there was a robot picture posted on Delphi of a robot that the team had said was "hanging". Now, with the Q&A forums as they are, it can be very easy to overlook certain things. I looked at the picture and realized that according to an answer that FIRST posted in the Q+A forum, the robot pictured would not be hanging. My team didn't even realize this rule until the last week themselves! In a public post I let the team know that according to the FIRST ruling, the robot pictured would not be hanging. I kept it public because I know there are probably quite a few people who didn't realize that if your hook is touching the side bar, they are not hanging. I think this is a solid case for the opposite of what Mr. Baker says. I can see similar cases where this could happen. For instance if a robot has a certain type of wedge to herd balls that looks like it may be in danger of breaking the human player coral area (loss of 10 points), I would certainly want to bring that to a teams attention, and do it in public so that other teams would realize exactly what can happen. Other than that, I would agree with Andy...try to keep it positive and constructive.

Good Luck!
Andy Grady

Chris Fultz

01-03-2004, 23:26

As I have looked thru some of the picture posts tonight I have seen some awesome robots and the efforts of great students and mentors that have produced a machine to play this game.

I have also seen some comments and criticisms of thise machines that are not constructive criticism or helpful - the machines are built - they are shipped - they are ready to compete - and the negative comments can do nothing but bruise a team.

Please Go back and read the first post in this series and apply the intent before you post about someones masterpiece.

Good Luck to all teams and I hope everyone's robots perform exactly as intended!

Stina236

04-03-2004, 17:18

Gracious professionalism... need i say more? lol

as long as we remember the words of woodie... what could possibly go wrong? but honestly, i think that as a majority the entire FIRST robotics "community" is kind, helpful, and supportive.

kmcclary

09-03-2004, 10:51

Good grief, I'd be AFRAID to criticize someone's strategy! Which team was it a few years ago with the simple bot in the "trough game", that had the ONE ball gripper and a chinup rig, but nothing else? Everyone laughed, because THEY all had big capacity ball handling machines, conveyor belts, giant container dumpers, etc... They stopped laughing when the little bot went over at round start, did a chinup, locked on, then proceeded to steal every 10 point ball from their opponent's trough and put it in their own...

IMHO, it's the most brilliant strategy I've seen to date... That simple idea swamped that game, by turning their opponent's efforts against themselves.

Similarly smart, was the tiny "ramp assistance/manager" machine that helped the other teams in Co-Opertition FIRST (a simple wedge, which held the teeter totter level, while other robots ran over it's back). Two years ago there were some VERY brave teams that said "to heck with QPs, we're owning ALL of the Zone Zeal goals and will just be CHOSEN for the Elimination Tournament".

Little things can have BIG effects, and NO ONE KNOWS until you see how the game WILL be played what IS smart, and what ISN'T.

Last year for Stack Attack, we built a "transformer bot" with wings and a stacking lift, that could fold into a 14" high package. We busted our butts to package our entire bot into a 30"x36"x14" package! What happened? We never had to stack one bin to score. We never went under the bar, not even once. Instead, those two light 8020 "wing sticks" we stuck on at the last minute just to push some bins around were the most valuable thing we had. In addition, our complicated forklift stacker turned into a "stack slicer / opponent bin stack size manager". It ended up maximizing QPs by karate chopping the opponent's stacks at a level of OUR choice, and helped to give our alliance a Top Ten Round score at one regional. That use was something that never occurred to us until we started playing others!

Yes, I definitely agree with everyone here that we learn from ANY feedback, even critical stuff. You bet I would bow down and kiss the feet of ANYONE that saved our bacon by pointing out something that would disqualify our robot! And yes, there's a difference between criticism, and put downs stated trying to make the commenter feel superior. (There's NO excuse for that!)

But we must all be CAREFUL about PRE-JUDGING a robot's APPROACH. This is a battle ground of ideas, and they ALL INTERACT. It'll all depend on what everyone ELSE'S image of the game. Had the little trough lockon robot been up solely against clones of itself, there would have been no one out there collecting balls to steal, and they would have been in an arm wrestling match over one or two balls!

THIS game has a LOT of "scoring zones". We asked for a Rock/Paper/Scissors game, and boy oh boy did Dean, Dave, Woody, and crew take a good shot this year at delivering one! I'm FASCINATED by the possibilities. WHAT will everyone be focused on? Will we see entirely different games at different Regionals?

But who knows? There may still be a "game swamping move". There are thousands of smart people out there working on this one! And, depending on their OPPONENTS' aproach(es), a "dumb machine with obvious design weaknesses" that CAN be beaten easily ("had we only known what they were planning") may turn out to be the STRONGEST one there, just because their approach was SO DIFFERENT from everyone they face, who didn't expect to have to counter it!

And THAT possibility is what makes going to the contests so much fun! :D

I can't wait until I see how this game is REALLY played. The arena will quickly show all of us how strategically smart or dumb we all actually were, and where our efforts truly paid off.

Bottom line: The Field</> will be the ultimate judge of our efforts. Just learn what you can from the comments on your design. Don't sweat the critics and nay-sayers. Go out, and have some fun. After all, we'll soon see whose bot is going to be kicked... I can't wait to see some strategies AND designs out there that WE never would have thought of in a million years, and devices WE thought were dead ends made to work! :D

Good luck to ALL of the teams. May YOUR design be victorious, and all of your hard work richly rewarded!

- Keith

dmellich

14-03-2004, 11:56

"Critical and picky..." I think not!

Andy's message can be summed up in two words...

Gracious Professionalism

If I recall correctly, Dean made a very strong statement about this at the kickoff. I have beat this into my students heads. They have bought into the message.

Keep going Andy!!

thewizard16

14-03-2004, 23:39

Hello again,

Well, I'm going with Andy on this one as well. People need to be careful with what they say, myself included. There's a little trick to ensure that you don't say anything mean or overly critical... Have brain intercept mean/overly critical thought before it reaches mouth. I did that a couple times. What helps me is to remember that just because it didn't work for us doesn't mean it can't work for them. When I was talking with a coach from a different team in our pit the other day he was discussing our design with me, and asking some questions. He asked me why we didn't do a certain design of ball holding idea. I knew their robot happened to be based on this idea, and knew the question could mean one of two things. One- he wanted to know if we'd discovered something better, or Two- he wanted to know why the heck we did what we did. Well, to be honest, we'd tried something similar to what he was discussing, and it didn't do at all what we wanted it to. But, I reminded myself that just because we didn't make it work, didn't mean they were incapable of making it work, and told him that we felt that we accomplish more of the goals our team members set out by using a broader, less specific, design.
Remember people- appearances are everything, and the things you say go a long way on the gracious professionalism track. (in other words, don't talk bad about the other teams till you get to the hotel. And if they're in the same hotel, talk quiet. those walls are thin.)
Later,

Ryan F.

04-04-2004, 00:52

Hello,

I realize this is a little late, but it's something I wanted to point out. helpfull criticism of robots is great, but watch how far you go with it..because people spent so much time working on these robots. The thing is that I've noticed a sort of elitist attitude on these forums when robots are being criticized. It looks like some people believe that they post a lot here, or that they know a lot more than someone else that they can go overboard on the criticism, or maybe just try to make themselves look good by being picky with someones robot. That's probably not the case with a lot of people..but sometimes it definetly looks like that.

Mark Pettit

19-04-2004, 13:28

At L.A., the inspector that was going over our robot was incessantly telling us what was wrong with our machine. He would point at a part and tell us how we should have done it instead. We all kind of knodded and umm-hmm'd at him in agreement so as not to upset him and keep him from passing us on inspection but when we got back to our pit we all commented on what a jerk he was about it since our robot works just fine, thank you. Especially since none of us believed that he could build one better.
Our bitterness escalated all the more when we saw that he was actually a mentor for one of the local L.A. teams.
Yes, Andy, et al., I agree! We should all be in awe of each others' creations and we should all see them as the personal objects that they are to each of us who have put so much into them.
My team is constantly telling ourselves that, "If we had more time, we could have done this. . . " or "Wow! That part would have been better if we would have built it this way. . . ". We respect other teams creations and would never think about telling them how they should have done it.

kmcclary

19-04-2004, 18:53

At L.A., the inspector that was going over our robot was incessantly telling us what was wrong with our machine. He would point at a part and tell us how we should have done it instead. [what a jerk]

In this case, not seeing the incident in question, its hard to judge... If it was safety related, listen up! But if it was simply HIS opinion for a "better way", well, he can have his opinion, and you can have yours! :D

Please be conscious that there's a fine line all inspectors have to walk, between trying to be helpful, "mentoring", and perceived as being "overly critical". OOH, he has no reason criticizing a well working system.

OTOH, there's a disabling concept rampant among businesses, called "NIH Syndrome". (Not Invented Here... IOW, "If WE didn't come up with it, it CAN'T be any good") If your own pride deafens you from absorbing some cool ideas "for next time" which may have made your job easier, THAT in and of itself CAN be a problem.

His experience may have been dearly won, with pain, suffering, long hours, dead robots, or simply some lousy round scores. You never know... Just take notes, and try not to take his comments personally. Look them over LATER, once you've cooled off. If it turns out to be SOUND advice, add it in your bag of tricks for another year.

Hey... I'll admit to ANYONE that *I* am not an expert in everything. I have no crying need to suffer needlessly. If ANYONE wishes to offer me "a better way" to do ANYTHING, I'm all ears! I'll just take the data, and decide LATER if I'll take the advice or not the NEXT time I'm faced with the same choice! :D

But then, it doesn't mean we're going to tear apart a legal, working robot just to satisfy HIS vision of OUR robot... :D

Bottom Line: To heck with other's opinions... RESULTS ARE EVERYTHING. If your robot is LEGAL, AND it does what you wanted it to do, it's FINE... The Field will determine if your approach was sound or not. BUT, don't succumb to "NIH Syndrome" and tune them out whenever someone tries to offer advice!

Sounds like you handled it well, and your bot worked out, and that's ALL that matters. Keep up the good work, and Build More Bots! :D

- Keith

Redhead Jokes

19-04-2004, 19:20

OTOH, there's a diabling concept rampant among businesses, called "NIH Syndrome". (Not Invented Here... IOW, "If WE didn't come up with it, it CAN'T be any good")

That's so funny. I just heard about NIH about a couple of weeks ago from a mentor on another team who described how she'd experienced that in running her own business. She was contracted to provide CEO's with a business report that was very expensive. The CEO would love it. If the CEO took it home to his wife it was often subjected to the NIH Syndrome and picked to pieces.

She and I commiserate about the people who don't appreciate all the work involved, the process, and what was accomplished, and prefer to criticize and blame, point out what SHOULD have been done, plan what should BE done, and expect others to put in all the time and effort to put those plans in place, without offering their own time and energy.

KenWittlief

19-04-2004, 19:29

RyanMcE

21-04-2004, 05:00

If you are honestly trying to point things out that you feel will help this team out, then save it for a PM.

I have to disagree with you here. One of the nicest things about a public forum is that people who don't even ever post get questioned answered just by reading becasue someone else took the time to ask the question already. So when something doesn't seem quite right with a design, or a question comes to mind, it makes much more sense to me write about it publically. Then everyone can come up with ideas to fix the problem or make the design better, and all the lurkers are enlightened as well. If we wanted to PM people all the time, then there wouldn't be much use of the rest of the forums.

As for your other comments about being tactful when critiquing, as you may all know by now I suck at tact. So, is it better for me to simply say nothing when I think something could be improved because I might offend someone, or is it better for me to go ahead and speak my mind, and hopefully somebody will learn or some robot will get better because of it?

RyanMcE

21-04-2004, 05:02

but sometimes it definetly looks like that.

Why do looks matter? Oh wait, this is FIRST.

Andy Baker

21-04-2004, 09:54

I have to disagree with you here. One of the nicest things about a public forum is that people who don't even ever post get questioned answered just by reading becasue someone else took the time to ask the question already. So when something doesn't seem quite right with a design, or a question comes to mind, it makes much more sense to me write about it publically. Then everyone can come up with ideas to fix the problem or make the design better, and all the lurkers are enlightened as well. If we wanted to PM people all the time, then there wouldn't be much use of the rest of the forums.

As for your other comments about being tactful when critiquing, as you may all know by now I suck at tact. So, is it better for me to simply say nothing when I think something could be improved because I might offend someone, or is it better for me to go ahead and speak my mind, and hopefully somebody will learn or some robot will get better because of it?

Ryan,

You have good points here. I regret some of my original post and people have pointed out mistakes in my logic. Their corrections and yours are legitimate points. I was reacting to people who were being downright rude to others at the time.

Thanks,
Andy B.

kmcclary

21-04-2004, 10:11

there is another factor at work here - i dont have a catch phrase for it

its very difficult to come up with a geniune new idea - it takes a real flash of insight and brillance - and then to implement a new idea for the first time is 100% new territory

but once you have the first version of your new concept built and working, its VERY easy for someone esle to come along, take a look at what you have accomplished, and find many ways to make it better [...]

just remembered, there is a catch phrase for this: OneUpManShip

LOL!

Actually, I think you're searching for "Invention" vs "Process Improvement". Both of these classes of Intellectual Property are recognized by the Patent Office.

It's funny you mention that, as Process Improvement is MY business (I'm a "Mercenary Inventor" by trade... :D ). FIRST challenges help me keep my skills sharp, and my brain flexible.

Sometimes process improvements can be done by divergent thinking or "Ah HA"! creation, but often it can be by pulling one paradigm's concept into another area. But the easiest way to improvement of all is simply by getting a fresh or MULTIPLE viewpoint(s) on the problem. The New Guy is not INVESTED in a particular approach, nor blinded by past habitual solutions and their DETAILS. IOW, a new POV can often see the forest from the trees, and therefore has a better chance to find quicker and easier paths through the forest. That's why I love gaining new students and mentors, and brainstorming. They don't think like I do (nor does the "group mind"), and won't get caught in the same traps that I alone would.

There's an old Urban Legend of the argument between a teacher and a student in a college Engineering Class. The teacher spoke of "mature technologies that couldn't be improved further". The student claimed you could improve ANYTHING with enough thought and effort. The teacher then challenged him to improve Chopsticks, a technology that has been stable for thousands of years...

The next week, the student came back in with a bowl of noodle soup and some chopsticks. He sat and calmly ate the noodles normally. Then, to everyone's surprise, he stuck in one of the sticks and proceeded to suck up all of the soup through the long hole he'd drilled through its length, like a straw.

Point well taken... :D

I'm constantly amazed by the creative genius of many teams. EVERY time I attend, I either see something totally novel, or MUCH simpler than I expected would be needed to do a specific task... What fun!!! You could just see the "Ah HA!" and pride in their faces when they spoke of how they came up with it... :D

I swear at times I have MUCH more fun touring the pits, talking with the teams standing proudly by their machines, and seeing the non-obvious solutions or HOW their widgets and new drivetrain works, than watching the game itself.

If I wasn't such a FIRST fanatic consumed with the idea of starting up new FIRST teams to get more kids involved, and ever end up living in a place without a team possible, I'd definitely either be a Pit Groupie or Traveling Wrenchman long before considering becoming a Spectator... :D

That's so funny. I just heard about NIH about a couple of weeks ago from a mentor on another team who described how she'd experienced that in running her own business.

She was contracted to provide CEO's with a business report that was very expensive. The CEO would love it. If the CEO took it home to his wife it was often subjected to the NIH Syndrome and picked to pieces.

<chuckle> As a Process Improvement Consultant, I run into NIH *all* of the time. Some are often insulted by "an outsider" being brought in. To overcome it, it takes a management commitment FOR CHANGE. Then the MANAGEMENT will suppress NIH obstructing advancement, by overriding the stalled team's personnel. If I'm hired to change or improve something, that support is the first thing I insure I have. Otherwise, I'm wasting my time, because the changes won't be USED. Similarly with starting a FIRST team. A creation of a new team is a CHANGE in ROUTINE for a school. If you don't have both top management AND teacher approval (AND support) for it, your job of starting one is somewhere between hard and impossible.

I'm not sure I understand though. SHE suffered from NIH over her SPOUSE'S company, as in "SHE didn't think of it, so it was bad"? Or was it more akin to defense of her spouse "from attack", like "don't you dare be critical of MY spouse's company"?

BTW, another other biggie that runs rampant in large organizations (governments, companies, schools, whatever) is "Empire Building". Your friend may have inadvertently run into that one, too.

Empire Building is where people instead of being paid on profitability or service effectiveness are instead either paid proportionate to the staff size under them, or worse, are only allowed to advance by building a larger group beneath them. A HUGE motivator and IMHO one of the biggest causes of overbloated bureaucracies. Consider: If your pay is proportional to bodies, WHO CARES what they do, or if they do anything at ALL? In fact, any suggested improvement based on increasing effectiveness, which in the end may even POSSIBLY cause a staff shrinkage, is fought tooth and nail without regards to its merit. Governmental agencies often fall into this class. No profit motive for service efficiency, and large Empire Building forces. (Ever go into the DMV, or any major govt building and try to get something done quickly???)

Of course, they won't say their REAL reasons for fighting the suggestions. Instead, they'll attack or quickly try to "discredit the messenger". I once was on a three man team with the unenviable task of having to decide which of three competing over 100 head departments' separately evolved approaches were to be chosen by the parent company to be used for the future. That meant two department's Empires were at risk of being dispersed into other tasks. Not a problem for the employees as they'd be reassigned, but a BIG problem for two of the three managers, who'd lose their Empires, and may suffer a pay CUT. So, ALL THREE of them simply "played the odds" and started attacking our credibility even before we started.

That was a big reason OUTSIDE consultants were brought in to make the evaluation. Imagine an EMPLOYEE trying to politically survive THAT level of "NIH criticism" later after being charged with evaluating three powerful and politically connected Centurions' ways of doing business!

The bottom line is that there are MANY reasons people don't like to hear advice or criticism. Many of the reasons have NOTHING to do with the advice itself (pride, ego, hidden financial motivations, etc.), and people will often DEFLECT it with anger or resentment against the person.

OTOH, there are a lot of jerks out there, too... :D

The key to keeping sane in that environment is not to take "NIH retribution challenges" personally.

I hope this gives some insight that "being ticked off about criticism is NOT only a school age problem. Adults have to deal with it too. In fact, if anything, reactions may be even WORSE, as their pride, egos, political standing, status, mates, or even their livelihood at times may be perceived to be threatened by criticism from another.

- Keith

Ryan F.

21-04-2004, 10:22

but sometimes it definetly looks like that.

The problem is that if it looks like it, that's all you can tell. When someone gives a harsh response etc. how do you know they meant different??

kmcclary

21-04-2004, 11:34

The problem is that if it looks like it, that's all you can tell. When someone gives a harsh response etc. how do you know they meant different??

It can often be hard. Sometimes if it FEELS inflammatory, you'll have to go off an evaluate the data later, after cooling off.

IMHO, a few of the best ways to tell is: via the information itself, the motivation for saying it, their word choices compared to the audience (is it audience appropriate?), and the non-verbal communication of the person WHILE they are saying it.

Look at the information DISPASSIONATELY. Yes, this is "your child" you wish to defend. Try to put that aside for a moment. (Yes, that can be VERY hard.) Now, without being defensive about it, do they have a POINT? If so, note it FOR THE NEXT TIME.

But even if they DO mean well, WHY are they saying it? Look at their motivation, and nonverbal posturing when they tell you. Are they REALLY trying to be helpful, or are they simply trying to stroke their OWN egos?

If there is more than one person present, are their words and postures playing childish "pecking order / status games" by stating things in front of OTHERS just to make THEMSELVES seem more important than you?

Are they RUSHED? Sometimes, harried inspectors who have a lot to do aren't as tactful as they might otherwise be in calmer circumstances when they have more time.

If you DO believe they are seriously trying to mentor, ACCEPT their motivation, regardless of audience.

A Mentoring Individual will have a serious expression, speak in plain tones, and will LISTEN BACK. Regardless if you WILL take their advice or not, at least listen politely, discuss and explore the options with them, and don't blame them for honestly trying to help you.

OTOH, if they're in a haughty attitude about it, or broadcasting it loudly ONLY for the embarrassment factor or to put you down for trying, that's totally uncalled for, and unprofessional.

Another factor to consider is the speaker's normal "team dynamic and culture". Some people (and teams) have the habit of talking roughly, or calling each other blockheads all of the time, and no one thinks twice about it. (Our teams mentors are VERY creative, but have a humor style such that at times they often roll their eyes at each other's wild suggestions and tell 'em to go jump in the lake or say "thanks for sharing"...) ;)

If you can, before judging a critical speech, try to find out something about the inspector, so you can judge if it is simply their normal interpersonal style. People come in a wide range between "brutal honesty" and "world class negotiator tactfulness". That doesn't mean anything about their INTENT.

But sometimes they may simply forget they're NOT talking with people with the same working culture, and thickness of skin as they're used to. Now that's THEIR problem. Let them know politely whenever they're starting to cross the line with something like: "Hey, be NICE... [We/I/Our Students] all worked HARD on that approach..."

If they STILL don't get the hint and monitor their word choices a bit more, they ARE jerks...

Does that make sense?

- Keith