Was bored yesterday...

[Matt Hallock]

Was sitting around pretty bored on Friday, decided I'd model a little architecture. Took around three hours to complete, minus render time.

http://atrax.goatpower.se/pubup/upload/TableDone.jpg
http://atrax.goatpower.se/pubup/upload/TableDone2.jpg

[sanddrag]

Very very impressive. When I first saw this (only the top half of the first picture, I thought, "That's stupid, he just took a picture of his hotel room at a regional" Hehe.

[Raven_Writer]

I second what sanddrag all the way.

I wish I could pull stuff off like this.

[ThetaDot]

you can
fancy renderers today can hide so much
i'd rather see things done with traditional lighting
where you actually had to put some thought into it and do it by hand

[kcy88]

the lighting on the chair outside on the deck doesn't make sense,
it is a day scene and ur goal was to have the sun shine into the room right?
Try decreasing the amount of light being absorbed by the chair padding.

but overall, really nice.

[jonathan lall]

Very very impressive. When I first saw this (only the top half of the first picture, I thought, "That's stupid, he just took a picture of his hotel room at a regional" Hehe.
"That's not a picture?"

Impressive.

[Matt Hallock]

you can
fancy renderers today can hide so much
i'd rather see things done with traditional lighting
where you actually had to put some thought into it and do it by hand


However, you're no longer forced to do it by hand, and that's what can be wonderful about Vray, Mental Ray, POVray or whatever you use. The lighting itself is pretty unrealistic, if you look at the angle of the shadows the brightness of the sky in the back is unrealistic. The chairs do absorb too much of the light.

Photon mapping is not just plug and go, when I was in class I carefully though for a few hours (It was Friday, I was doing nothing the whole day) the situation of lighting, how much it should generate, how much it should bounce, light color, material absorbtion and so on.

[Cory]

Who the hell cares? Stop being so nitpicky. He said he was bored, not that he was making a professional rendering of a hotel room.

I like it. It looks EXTREMELY good, I am stunned that anyone could do such a thing in such a short amount of time.

Cory

[ThetaDot]

Listen man I've been in this for a while.
The changes in the programs over the years have allowed the gap between truly talented artists and not so talented artists to close.
It might LOOK neat but consideration will still be taken over the piece as if the nice renderer wasn't there. I'm only telling you how it is.

Frustrating to see most people today missing the basics.
At this point i'd say forget the renderer and work on your modeling and texturing skills if you want to be recognized. Lighting is no longer an area of expertise - it's now done for you. Hopefully we'll never see a program that does everything for you. What is the fun or challenge in that?
i'm sure all of you would just eat it up


PREDICTION OF THIS FORUM IN 5 YEARS:
---------------------------------------
POSTER A:
sup guys i was bored so i decided to model a street. Took me 10 minutes minus render time (of 3 seconds). I love max 11!! It's all automatic!

http://www.wisdom.weizmann.ac.il/~yakov/album/argentina-99/paris-new-york.jpg

--
POSTER B:

WOW very very impressive.

--
POSTER C:

EXTREMELY GOOD

-------------------------------------------


Get my point?
All the guys who have worked hard learning things over several years are being over run by kids who have nice new programs that do the same thing in 5 minutes. If all of you worked hard over the next five years and saw a post like my hypothetical one above, you'd be mad, too.


word

[ThetaDot]

ignore me i'm such a scrooge

[dlavery]

This all sort of makes me wonder if the following conversation might have ever taken place:

Fletcher #1: Geez, I'm really getting sick of all these kids. They just don't know what it takes to be a really good fletcher any more.

Fletcher #2: Yeah, it is like they don't even want to know what it takes to perform the craft. All they want to do is just use those new-fangled "guns" or whatever they are called, when we go hunting. They don't even make the danged things - they just "use" them!

Flecther #1: I tell ya, they just have no appreciation any more for good fletching - most of them wouldn't even know if it they saw a good fletching job. And don't even ask them to try to do it themselves! Ha! No way! They don't even know the basics!

Flecther #2: Yeah, these kids nowadays, they just don't get it. Hey, I'm gettin' hungry. What should we have for lunch?

Fletcher #1: I don't have much. I was hunting all day yesterday, and only got one rabbit. There doesn't seem to be much game about right now.

Fletcher #2: But the young gunsmiths next door seem to have a lot from yesterdays hunt. I wonder why? Hey, maybe we can work off something with them in trade.

Fletcher #1: I dunno. We can give it a try, but I am not sure we have much they will want. Have you noticed that business has really dropped off recently? I don't know if I am going to be able to stay in the trade. I'm telling you, nobody really appreciates a good fletcher any more...


So how many fletchers have you all seen around lately? (or wheelrights vs. tire factories, or hand typesetters vs. laser printers, or FORTRAN programmers vs. C+ programmers, etc.) :)

-dave

[rowe]

The changes in the programs over the years have allowed the gap between truly talented artists and not so talented artists to close.
It might LOOK neat but consideration will still be taken over the piece as if the nice renderer wasn't there.
i would tend to agree with you that the programs are doing more and more of the work. but as this happens you wont be able to see the uniqueness in the artists. for example, today renders take care of most of the lighting, but it all looks the same, the more you see, the more boring it gets. but someone who actually knows how to setup the lighting can still make very interesting lighting that could distingush him from the mass production that were used to seeing. or lets switch to another medium altogether: photography. anyone can go buy a camera an snap a few pictures, not hard to do at all, but to truly excellent, you must know how to make your scene interesting (lighting, placement of objects, etc). the same goes for the us today. in a couple of years, you're probably right, you will be able to make a scene in 10 mins because the program does everything for you, but trust me, there will be a differece between the mass produced and the true art.

[Matt Hallock]

It's not like I couldn't create lighting the hard way and have it look the same, because that's how I did it before these, 'new fangled rendering systems came out.' Lighting is becoming a lost art if people skip the basics and just go straight to photon mapping, however, since I spent time on the setup of lights long before, I don't see any reason why I should set it up when something else can do it for me if I already know how.

How is it you are able to question my integrity as a '3D artist' for lack of better words. I've gone from program to program over the last four years and it is pathetic to see people go into some program and turn on skylight and call it quits.

[ThetaDot]

I don't see any reason why I should set it up when something else can do it for me if I already know how.

I guess then it rests on your "integrity" or your character.
Kind of like the samurai who keeps to his sword instead of picking up a gun... like the Jedi who keeps to his saber.

Really when you look at it, this situation has gone on for thousands of years in nearly everything. Some always welcome the "new and improved" and some remain where they are and mourn (hello mindset of elderly people).

How often does the new and improved really improve things?
I have no doubt on the larer scale that many of the new things have been and are genuinely good additions to the world (hello indoor plumbing)... but there are always those small group of things where you just wish they had been left alone.

We must have pride in our old lighting ways!
WWJD?
(what would a jedi do) ;)

[Matt Hallock]

Well, I was going to make the point that I'd take a finely tuned automobile over a horse and buggy, however after reading your post I think you'd agree with that as well. This is probably just one position we disagree on, where I think some of the things these new renderers have to offer is great and exciting, whereas you think it lacks skill. I guess we'll just agree to disagree, I don't think you'll change my opinion, or mine yours.

[Lev]

There is just one flaw with the whole "good old ways" argument - if you think that there is no challenge in creating a photorealistic artwork with newer software - why aren't you sticking with trusty MSPaint?

[Thadanator]

so then why were you complaining, ThetaDot?

I would have to say Lev has a point, everything is supported by something else, or maybe I should be typing on a computer running on vacums, which were hand-pressed and forged in a rock.

[Eric Bareiss]

I was planning on sending everyone this post by pony express...but I figured I might as well post it online using my computer. I guess that's why they invented this thing.

[rowe]

I was planning on sending everyone this post by pony express...but I figured I might as well post it online using my computer. I guess that's why they invented this thing.
ok, i think you completely missed ThetaDot's point, hes not saying that he is opposed to technology, or advancement in anything for that matter. what he is saying is that wen the computer starts taking over the thought, something is lost. in some areas, it is insignificant but in areas such as art (3d art included) that something lost is huge.

[Koko Ed]

I am far better at using traditonal art methods than I am with computer programs but I wish to get better because the potential is so great.
I think an artist unique style can come through with computer art (you can even make art look abstract if you so wish). For the longest time I have been longing to create an independet comic but when looking at the immense cost of creating, printing and distributing such an endevour and the need to sell X amount of books just to break even that dream died on the vine. But now with the opportunity to produce such things electronically has rekinled my enthusiasm about my book and the mean which I can create it.
Now I just have to get better using 3D Studio Max (perhaps I should use flash or Shockwave instead).

[ChrisH]

I am far better at using traditonal art methods than I am with computer programs but I wish to get better because the potential is so great.
I think an artist unique style can come through with computer art (you can even make art look abstract if you so wish). For the longest time I have been longing to create an independet comic but when looking at the immense cost of creating, printing and distributing such an endevour and the need to sell X amount of books just to break even that dream died on the vine. But now with the opportunity to produce such things electronically has rekinled my enthusiasm about my book and the mean which I can create it.
Now I just have to get better using 3D Studio Max (perhaps I should use flash or Shockwave instead).


Lord, it's been over twenty years since I weighed in on an argument about lighting, and then we were using heavy "luminaires" not this virtual stuff. Digital pictures back then were more like line drawings.

I really don't care what renderer you use or how you get your lighting effects. The only real questions are 1) do you know what effect you want, and why? 2) are you getting the effect that you want? 3) if not, do you know what to do about it?

How about this Final Exam? You walk into the room, a big black box theatre and are handed a scene number (at random) from the play you were supposed to read in advance. Your equipment is one elipsoidal spotlight, one wrench for mounting same, a box of gels and gobos, a 20 foot ladder, and a lighting tech in the booth because you can't be two places at once. Your classmates will be the actors, position them as you wish. Light that scene! you have 20 minutes .... be ready to defend your answer.

If you can pass that, you may understand enough about lighting to weigh in on the argument about what rendering technique to use. How you do it is not nearly as important as what is achieved in the end result.

[ThetaDot]

Lord, it's been over twenty years since I weighed in on an argument about lighting, and then we were using heavy "luminaires" not this virtual stuff. Digital pictures back then were more like line drawings.

I really don't care what renderer you use or how you get your lighting effects. The only real questions are 1) do you know what effect you want, and why? 2) are you getting the effect that you want? 3) if not, do you know what to do about it?

How about this Final Exam? You walk into the room, a big black box theatre and are handed a scene number (at random) from the play you were supposed to read in advance. Your equipment is one elipsoidal spotlight, one wrench for mounting same, a box of gels and gobos, a 20 foot ladder, and a lighting tech in the booth because you can't be two places at once. Your classmates will be the actors, position them as you wish. Light that scene! you have 20 minutes .... be ready to defend your answer.

If you can pass that, you may understand enough about lighting to weigh in on the argument about what rendering technique to use. How you do it is not nearly as important as what is achieved in the end result.


http://thetadot.lazyarse.net/Upload/ugly.gif


hahahahaha oh my god
you win the prize for unique word dropping

and ms paint is amazing

and some of you are putting words into my mouth
they taste yucky

and Peace @ Matt Hallock
For all artists everywhere the place to improve your skills now are now Modeling, Animation, and Texturing (but that one is iffY).
I think the nice renderers are neat and certainly nice to look at..
I guess I just don't want people to make it the centerpiece of all of their work... because most of us can see right through it. I could take the jankiest model ever and make it look awesome with a nice renderer.
I've spent a lot of time playing with GI and it's fun. I just want people to learn how to fly the falcon before using the light speed button.

http://www.jedisaber.com/SW/wallpaper/light%20speed.jpg

[jonathan lall]

Here's what I've gathered from this thread. These are paraphrases, and not exactly what was said.

Matt: Check out this 3D scene I quickly made because I had nothing better to do.

Others: Wow! You 'quickly' made that? It looks pretty good.

Theta: Shows how much skill you have; I'd face a gunman with a katana, just as I'd manually set the lighting in an image even if it made no difference in the final product.

Bottom Line: It looks good. Don't imply someone has less skill than yourself in fletching unless you can back it up. Clearly the parties involved know what they are talking about. I do not. Let's try and keep the threads civil?

[Steve W]

Great job. I at first was fooled to believing that it was a photo. As one who watches for mistakes in movies, only 1 thing caught my eye. The reflection in the glass table had trees and green in it wereas it looks like it should have had blue and sky. Remember this is coming from an old guy that can barely use his computer. :)

[ThetaDot]

http://thetadot.lazyarse.net/Upload/Indy.jpg

i heart jonathan lall

[jonathan lall]

LMAO. If you rendered that, I'd be really impressed. But the colour kinda looks off. It's like it was made in 1981 or something.

[ThetaDot]

this is really oneof my most favorite threads ever
this thread rules

[David Kelly]

Wow, the topics that people complain and whine to each other about now is insane... Nice work Matt. :]


Check out the Indiana University School of New Media (http://newmedia.iupui.edu/) My major