View Full Version : Reputations. Do they deserve more careful thought?
You can't be that bad; you've got positive rep! :):):):):)
Alright this post gives me occasion to rant on something that has been building up for a long time now. I've been a member of these forums for quite a while now (almost since the begining) and I to am probably on a few people's lists, although I'm proud to say it is by my own doing :-P. I watched as the "old forums" gave way to the "new forums." I was here for, as some may remember the post count scandal. For those of you who don't remember this first happened back when the post counts were first turned on and people discovered that if you posted a lot you got a cute little nick name like "Frequent Contributor" or "Bow before me FIRST community," etc. this was proceeded by a period during which everyone was posting like mad with useless one word posts in order to try and jack up their post counts.
However I think that this idea of reputations is even more troubling. I think I understand how they are supposed to work but I think that the community has taken it way to seriously. I understand if it is in fun and all of that. However the idea of negative reps and people get pretty vindictive with these things, worse than that I think it encourages people to judge one another whether posatively or negatively when you see all those green bars you think "wow" and when you see a single gray dot you wonder what is up with that person. Is this the way in which we aim to change society? I understand that we're trying to police ourselves and such but when it gets to the point that the moderators need a moderators forum perhaps things are pushing the threshold of just a little to far. To often I think people get to caught up in this and they fire off a bunch of negative reps, report a post, or perhaps even make a post like this one.
However I wonder if encouraging people to judge others is a road we really want to travel down.
-Justin
MikeDubreuil
06-04-2004, 15:36
My only concern about the system is that people are mush more likely to receive a negative point then a positive one. Everyone makes great posts everyday. To get a positive rep point for a post, it has to glow, it has to be something that you can dedicate a novel to. Where as at least for myself, I've recived negative rep points for some pretty frivelous reasons.
I also feel that you're more likely to receive a positive rep point from an internet friend. Not suprisingly, the "popular people" as indicated in the People I want to meet at nationals (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27411) thread have a ton of rep points. Reading that thread made me relive some not so nice parts of high school :rolleyes:
Well, I don't like the reputation thing, for one. Does this surprise anyone?
Tom Bottiglieri
06-04-2004, 15:39
i think the repuatation system is perfect the way it is.
You can tell who knows what they are talking about and who doesnt by looking at their rep. I mean just look at posters like Andy Baker and Joe Johnson. They have really high amounts of rep, but that is to go along with their high amount of knowledge. These people are to be bowed down to.
The people with medium amounts of rep (3-5 boxes) are given respect by others also. I mean, when i see someone with a a few green boxes, i make sure to take the time to read their post thouroghly. Also, i believe it is right to give bad rep to those who abuse these forums, posting needless and disrespectful stuff. These forums are a highly helpful tool to everyone, so the rep system gives us a chance to protect this valuable asset, as well as recognize those who go above and beyond to help FIRST.
shyra1353
06-04-2004, 15:45
i think there should be a maximum number of bad reps you can receive for one post ..
Thanks for picking on me. :) I'm not that serious about the rep points. It was more just in fun that I said that.
everyone was posting like mad with useless one word posts in order to try and jack up their post counts.
That's... special. :)
when you see all those green bars you think "wow"True. As was pointed out by someone else, it is hard to earn positive points. Actually, I have noticed that, even if someone says thanks for your help, they often don't add to your reputation.
and when you see a single gray dot you wonder what is up with that person.For whatever reason, I don't care if all they have is a grey dot. It doesn't invalidate what they say. Same with the positives too. They could still say something really stupid. :)
--EDIT--
I hope you get what I'm saying. I couldn't figure out exactly what to say. :)
Stephen Kowski
06-04-2004, 15:53
Oh man ppl relax....it is a forum and people are always going to do silly things....
It is just a feature of the forum, but it is the people that interpret it that does something....if you do not care about reputation it won't effect you....plz don't take it so seriously we are not voting for a king of FIRST with these points....
I must have gotten five negative rep hits by mistake. I can tell because the accompanying comment was actually positive. A reminder: if you are going to give out rep make sure the right rep is chosen before you hit enter. After all , reputations are at stake. ;)
That is all. :DAt least you can afford it. Some of us down at the bottom don't want to risk going to the 'grey' side. :)
Does it ever get to red?
--EDIT--
Oh, yeah. And, once I recieved a rep point that was grey (not green or red). How's that happen? There was no comment with it either. :confused:
In case any of you saw this eariler post of mine, this too was all said in good fun. As the last guy said, most people don't go, "Oh, look. He has a grey dot. What a loser. I'm not gonna read his post." :)
MikeDubreuil
06-04-2004, 16:01
Oh man ppl relax....it is a forum
Stephen, I don't mean to pick on you because many people tell others to relax. However, I hope to stop the madness... Nothing makes me more mad, than seeing someone post "relax" in the forum, followed by a post which hardly contributes to the discussion.
This is an Internet forum- if you want to relax, sit next to a pool and sun bathe. However, the rest of us will have a mature discussions and debates on the CD forums.
pludodog
06-04-2004, 16:02
I dunno, overall the idea of reputation isn't a bad one, but I know some of my fellow team members have certain people who seem to follow them around, marking them negative on everything they post (I've seen the screens :) ). Flattering, in a way, but it seems like replacing any sort of moderation with plain abuse...
....plz don't take it so seriously we are not voting for a king of FIRST with these points....
That's what you think...
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/pictures.php?&action=single&picid=7390
In seriousness, though, there is something of a valid point. I think the biggest problem is the discrepancy with how people view the point system. Some people will give postive rep for anything and everything, but I think someone else had a point when he/she (dont remember who it was) said that people are less likely to give out positive rep. You have to say something *really* good to get positive rep. Plus there are some people that will give negative rep for really silly reasons.
The point is, the way other people give rep may not match what you feel is deserving of rep (negative or positive). So the way I see it, we should all maybe look at people's reputation, but take it with a grain of salt because they are being "judged" by people in a way that you yourself might not judge them.
...Erm. I hope that made sense.
Basically, form your own opinions. (See, I can be coherent...)
BandChick
06-04-2004, 16:08
i agree that reputation is not taken seriously enough. though there are members of the chiefdelphi forum that have a high reputation that they have earned, there are too many points being awarded for silly things. i know even for myself, i have gotten positive reps from chit-chat posts, and i don't think that's fair. is there a way that can be disabled brandon? but honestly, i feel that too much of the reputation system is given out friend-to-friend on chiefdelphi.
Stephen Kowski
06-04-2004, 16:10
However, the rest of us will have a mature discussions and debates on the CD forums.
Not suprisingly, the "popular people" as indicated in the People I want to meet at nationals thread have a ton of rep points. Reading that thread made me relive some not so nice parts of high school.
Ok well you keep worrying about mature discussions and the "popular people" bud....lol I'm going back to sunbathe in sunny Tampa....ttyl ;)
Matt Adams
06-04-2004, 16:32
... I've been a member of these forums for quite a while now (almost since the begining) and I to am probably on a few people's lists, although I'm proud to say it is by my own doing :-P. I watched as the "old forums" gave way to the "new forums." I was here for, as some may remember the post count scandal ... everyone was posting like mad with useless one word posts in order to try and jack up their post counts ... However I think that this idea of reputations is even more troubling. ... However the idea of negative reps and people get pretty vindictive with these things, worse than that I think it encourages people to judge one another whether posatively or negatively when you see all those green bars you think "wow" and when you see a single gray dot you wonder what is up with that person.I'm new to these forums. I've only been here since late 2003. I think I actually joined almost right at the time this reputation system started with a switch to VB3. I'll be the first to admit, the reputation system is interesting, and I'm not exactly sure what causes some people to throw some rep at you, and what doesn't.
However, I think that everyone should be willing to admit that a reputation system, voted on by your peers, should be a system that's infinitely better than looking at a sheer number of posts.
The truth of the matter is that green dots don't determine your human worth or dignity. They're dots! However, I'm somewhat of a green dot junkie. I get a little ego boost after posting something well thought out with a little research, and having give me rep, writing "Great post, thanks for answering my question."
It's encouraged me, personally, to either post something worthwhile, or not at all.
If you're truly concerned about getting green dots next to your name, (which I plead you really don't worry about) all you have to write informative, worthwhile, and proof-read posts. Reputation will come, either in the form of dots, or hopefully more importantly, in the form of actually respect by your peers.
Not suprisingly, the "popular people" as indicated in the People I want to meet at nationals (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27411) thread have a ton of rep points. Reading that thread made me relive some not so nice parts of high school :rolleyes: I think the relationship is actually better correlated to forum join date, posting frequency, and respect (read: not reputation dots). I am a case in point example. I'm not on any of the lists, but happen to have a bunch of green dots. I'm not at all surprised about not being on the list - I'm a newbie!
Maybe you want to take some time to appreciate that you've outgrown the popularity contests of high school! :)
However, let me plead again to everyone that you don't base your self worth, or prejudge others' by green dots or lack-thereof. There are more to people than reputation dots on a web forum!
They're just dots!
Matt
I am with matt on this one THEY ARE DOTS! I try to not look in the upper right corner while i am in these forums as much now due to the whole rep point issue. I have seen some people on these forums get rep points just for being known, while i have seen others get ignored completly cause they have one box. I mean i wont bring up the thread but person a posted the same thing as person b did but about 3 hours prior. Later i went to check that thread again and saw that poster a was completly ignored with one green rep box, while poster b with at the time 6 green rep boxes was praised. I mean if you are going to judge someone by how many rep boxes they have then i am going to have to avoid you. This whole reputation scoring box deal is just a pain in my.... yeah and i remember when the whole post scandel occured with repititious posts just to get their own post count up to get a personal title and now everyone gets them automatically, i think we may have been better with out the whole rep point system... Oh and if you want to know what im handing out at nationals, its Rep Point pins...(jk)
NoRemorse
06-04-2004, 16:57
i think there should be a maximum number of bad reps you can receive for one post ..
I'd have to agree on this. Ive gotten 3 negative points for one post. And it was because I had a small part of bad information. It's not lik ei was intentionaly hurting someone. And hardly anyone recieves a good point for what they do. I got a few from sharing some files, but most things by people go unnoticed. I really think it is kind of a bad thing to have negative rep points really. All for the good ones tho. This is FIRST, we don't put people down when they make mistakes, we help them realize what they have done and correct it.
Brandon Martus
06-04-2004, 16:58
Basically, form your own opinions. Exactly. The reputation system is just there to help you form your own opinions, not form them for you.
Okay...
I'm not really sure how to respond to this thread.
I've got a whole pile or rep, and I'd like to believe that most of it was earned, and not (as accusations have implied) simply given to me by my online friends.
I've got a few questions to ask:
Do you really judge the worth of a person's response by the number of dots next to their name?
I don't. Not at all. I judge them based on the quality of their posts, and by the way that they "act" in these forums. Yes, I know you can't really judge a person online, but I'd like to think these forums make for a good "first impression".
Do you judge me by my dots?
I certainly hope not.
How do you decide where you give reputation?
I give it based on respect, and based on post quality. If I respect someone highly, I am more likely to give them rep, simply because of the large amount of respect I feel for them, I believe they should have a high reputation. I also give rep to someone when I see a "good" post. I give negative rep rarely, and only in instances when I feel the individual is out of line.
I receive negative rep, more frequently then you probably imagine. Usually for the same kind of posts I get lots of positive rep for. Yep, that's right. I speak my mind, and I sometimes take the gloves off. Lot's of mixed red/green dots for those posts...
Do you feel the reputation system is overall, working?
Yes... I do. Strongly.
I think the actual rep-list reflects my individual "rep list".
With a few minor exceptions (people left off), the top of the "rep-list" is a veritable list of "people who JVN respect". (If only a few people would move up, and that #2 person would drop down a few dozen spots, then all would be right with the world.) I'm always glad when I get the opportunity to throw some rep to a (great) guy like Paul Copioli who has taught me so much through his posts in these forums. I'm glad to see the top of the rep-list has many of my personal heroes on it. (Again... what is up with that #2? ;))
Do you genuinely feel the reputation system is causing harm?
No. I don't.
I largely ignore rep when reading the boards. It doesn't affect my respect of individuals, and it doesn't cause me to ignore someone. If anything, I think it only serves as a benchmark for self improvement. My rep is high, so obviously I'm doing something right. If my rep was low, I'd work to change. This isn't high school, no one is judging you by your dots (if it was HS, would the enginerds from Delphi, and NASA, be on top?).
Don't sweat the rep you get.
Just try to give rep in as positive a manner as possible.
Think of it as a tool for self improvement, and constructive criticism of others.
I am not the "cool kid".
John
Kris Verdeyen
06-04-2004, 17:45
So who else thought he was being funny and original by giving Justin plus rep on this post? I've noticed a new green dot next to his name, and there's now a spectacular aura about it.
That is not to say that Justin didn't deserve the rep - the post was well thought-out, with no obvious spelling or grammar errors (i.e. I could read it), and it sparked a thoughtful discussion. I just sort of chuckled to myself while clicking the button, amused at my own ironic gesture. You have to take amusement where it comes.
Feel free to spotlight that last sentence.
Mike Heinowski
06-04-2004, 17:48
I fell the rep system is fine. My only problem is not with the system but with the fact that some people will abuse the system and put a lot of negative rep on one person. I am a member of a lot of forums and most of the time they have a goofy atmosphere, it works because I'm a goofy person. The problem is when you type a message you tend to lose your tone of voice, and even the smillies don’t always help :D. People tend to take me the wrong way a lot but I just don’t let it get to me.
I hope this makes any sense, because I don't really think it does. :D
KenWittlief
06-04-2004, 18:08
I think a lot of people need to stop and read the text next to the little box before they give someone rep points
it doesnt say "I agree" or "I disagree"
is says "I approve" or "I disaprove" of what you have posted
thats a world of difference that many people miss.
I use the rep system alot to send one sentance messages to someone for many reasons - its better than having several "me too" posts show up in a thread that dont really contribute anything to the conversation - but it allows you to acknowledge a simple fact
its a act of courage for someone to go on a public forum and communicate information, feelings, opinions, or even something as simple as a joke - to post a message you have to believe that at lease one person out there is interested in what you have to say
the rep system is a great way to tell someone, hey I read your post and it connected with me on some level - thats a pretty cool thing
as for negative reps? think about the quality and character of most people involved with FIRST teams - you would have to search pretty hard to find anyone who really deserves to have a 'bad reputation' in this virtual community
I have popped off a few - you gotta really be dragging the forum into the mud to get a neg rep from me - hopefully if someone starts getting a few for a post they will seriously consider going back and editing what they said, that others are finding unacceptable.
I have also given people pos rep when I disagree with what they have posted - we can have opposite opinions on something, but I still approve of your posting your side of the issue, and I appreciate you taking the effort to do so.
and since I am human myself, I have received neg rep from several people - when its someone I really respect it makes me stop in my tracks and reconsider what I have posted - we all get out of line once in a while and need a little 'negative feedback' to get back on track. Much easier than someone having to compain to the forum monitors, have the monitor look into the situation and play babysitter.
Greg Ross
06-04-2004, 18:22
How do you decide where you give reputation?
I very rarely give reps.... Period. A post has to be exceptional before I will give positive reps. And if the poster already has lots of green, the post must be above and beyond what they normally post. :)
(Now you see why I count myself among the ranks of curmudgeons. ;))
As to negative reps: Occasionally, I have started to ding a post, but thought better because the person is new to the forums, and probably just hasn't acculturated himself to the Chief Delphi community yet. (I don't want to make a bad first impression on the newcomer.) However, if he has a history of exhibiting bad behavior, and should know better, then I will ding him.
(See, a curmudgeon can still have a heart. :p)
Ken Leung
06-04-2004, 18:49
Don't sweat the rep you get.
Just try to give rep in as positive a manner as possible.
Think of it as a tool for self improvement, and constructive criticism of others.
The great thing about the little button on the top right corner of your post window is the fact that I can leave a little comment to the poster without having to reply to the thread or start a PM. Than I can tell the poster if I like their post, or if I think they can make it a little better.
The only thing I don't like about it is I have to give positive points or negative points. A lot of times I feel really reluctant about giving neg points when I see the poster just need to tweak his message. I've always hated teaching by punishment, and negative rep points is a form of punishment.
Therefore I have no choice but to give him positive points.
I figure, the best way to teach is by example. If you want others around you to post better, you have the responsibility to show others you are capable of the same thing. Then others can see what's good and what's not, and improve their writing accordingly.
Also, I would've LOVED the new rep point system if I am given the option to give no points to the poster, and the ability to leave him a little comment. I figure if I am not too harsh in those little comments, people might actually listen once in a while.
As far as the overall rep system goes, I look at a person and decide if he/she deserve my respect based on what they wrote in their messages, not what others tell me if they are good people or not by the count of green dots.
Seriously, if you want to get to know the people behind online messages, you have to do the hard work to get to meet them face to face. A lot of people like Libby Ritchie, Paul Copioli, Erin Rapacki, and Don Knight I got to know well only because I met them at off season competition or at regionals, and spent time chatting about different things. As far as I am concerned, thats the best way to meet people. Then you can form your opinion on these people based on your experience with them. Besides, its rather pleasant getting to know the real person who is sleep deprived and totally stressed out at competition time ;-).
IMDWalrus
06-04-2004, 19:00
Also, I would've LOVED the new rep point system if I am given the option to give no points to the poster, and the ability to leave him a little comment. I figure if I am not too harsh in those little comments, people might actually listen once in a while.
Who's to say that Brandon couldn't add this one in? :)
I'm with Ken - I'd love to be able to add comments without affecting reputation.
I like the reputation system that's in place and, so far, am comfortable with how it's being used.
Like John, the members with the most reputation are people I admire and respect, and I believe that they are deserving of their many little green dots. I believe this system is working because, when I see a member with higher reputation than I'd have anticipated, I often go back and find meaningful contributions from them that I had previously missed.
When I'm given negative reputation, I often initiate a private conversation to discuss what about my post people feel negatively about and decide whether or not it's something I'm interested in changing. I probably don't do the same for positive reputation nearly enough and maybe it's time that I showed more appreciation to the people who take the time to recognize the contributions I try to make.
The system's not broken and nobody with high reputation is undeserving of the accolade. Maybe it's time I looked at who has low reputation and investigated if they're deserving of that.
Salik Syed
06-04-2004, 19:40
High Scores 03-22-2004 02:39 AM KyleGilbert45 not for this post..... but ok
High Scores 03-21-2004 08:08 PM tkwetzel You should PM someone with that type of message.
3D Model Showcase 03-11-2004 12:42 PM dlavery Posting that image, without making it clear right up front that it wasn't your work, borders very close on plagarism. *
3D Model Showcase 02-29-2004 02:53 AM jacob_dilles dont be an ignoramious
3D Model Showcase 02-28-2004 11:41 PM M. Krass edit one post instead of making three.
USFIRST Simulator 2004 ... 01-20-2004 07:55 PM KyleGilbert45
some new graphix..for t... 12-27-2003 12:14 AM M. Krass please write properly.
* these actually make sense
Okay these are some negative feed backs i've received...and some of them have a point .... but a lot of them are just plain stupid...and i thought bad reputation is for actually do something bad ...not just posting too many times or using ur instead your???>... i mean do you think badly of a person / give them a bad rep because they might mess up a few insignificant things in real life....NO only if they say something mean or stupid.... not for using bad punctuation....
I'm not sure if i should a censored the names but hey...you said it...! not me
Greg Perkins
06-04-2004, 19:51
Salik, what was said i believe you, however..the way you react to them is much worse. i would've censored the SN's due to common courtesy, and not to retalliate against them. i myself have had a lot of ridiculous reps, but i dont show them and gloat them over here to make the writer look bad. so, next time, please out of common courtesy, think about what you are posting.
Sorry..if this is a little off....and hopefully you won't give me bad rp's for it ;) . But..I haven't recieved many reputation points, and I'm trying to figure out if some of them were negative or positive because the people don't write comments.....and I don't know how to tell the difference. So if someone know's an obvious way..it would be great to know..is it the difference between the box color ??
Anyways...I'm against rep points. Gives me bad thoughts of a popularity contest. Lets see who can get more reputation points!!
Kris Verdeyen
06-04-2004, 20:00
i mean do you think badly of a person / give them a bad rep because they might mess up a few insignificant things in real life....NO
Do I think less of a person who can't express himself to me? Absolutely. Being able to communicate is not an "insignificant thing".
shyra1353
06-04-2004, 20:00
Sorry..if this is a little off....and hopefully you won't give me bad rp's for it ;) . But..I haven't recieved many reputation points, and I'm trying to figure out if some of them were negative or positive because the people don't write comments.....and I don't know how to tell the difference. So if someone know's an obvious way..it would be great to know..is it the difference between the box color ??
Anyways...I'm against rep points. Gives me bad thoughts of a popularity contest. Lets see who can get more reputation points!!
on the left hand side of where it says what post you made, there is a box ... if it is red than it means that it was a negative rep .. if it is green than it was a positive rep .. if it is grey that means that it could be either but the person who gave it to you has a negative rep or not enough experience on cd and that rep will not affect your overall points ..
hope this helps
MikeDubreuil
06-04-2004, 20:00
Alright, let me stir the kettle.
I see a general trend here, those who are fully supportive of the system all have rep points higher than 3 dots. Many even say they aren't all that big of a deal, they don't really look into them. However, some say that the people are the dots are the ones they respect.
If Bill Gates said, he doesn't really care about money. Would you believe him?
I am perfectly content with my two dots. (Though if anyone will give me more, I won't complain.)
Marygrace
06-04-2004, 20:17
For me, the reputation system is more of a way to show someone u agree, or disagree with out having to clutter the forums, then they can carry out the discussion through ...PMs if needed. Some do take the system a little too seriously. I left my account signed on by accident, and i guess my sister gave someone bad rep through my account, they got angered, PMed me asking why i gave them bad rep then gave me bad rep and in the comments wrote "see the first ammendment", before giving me a chance to explain.
Maybe people do see this as a popularity contest, that is their choice, u wanna worry about people giving you bad rep, go for it.
I dont think it is that big of a deal, I never really worried about what others thought of me, just said what i thought needed to be said, and i hope everyone else on this forum does the same. If you have something that you feel needs to be said, say it, dont worry about Bad reps, u will always have people that dont agree with you.
If i got good rep pts, w00t (<---that one is for tom), if bad, well, that sux, i read the comment and move on. It isnt that big of a deal, i think its meant to be a check and balance kind of system.
From my experience, (which is limited :)) and what has been posted in these rep threads, most rep points, good and bad, are given out to posts that have a strong opinion, or at least some sort of opinion on a hot topics. The people who recieve the most positive points are the ones that are able to post and make a point, while being sensitive about what they say.
And, I got distracted and forgot how I was going to finish that. Oh well, half my point is there. :)
Alright, let me stir the kettle.
I see a general trend here, those who are fully supportive of the system all have rep points higher than 3 dots. Many even say they aren't all that big of a deal, they don't really look into them. However, some say that the people are the dots are the ones they respect.
If Bill Gates said, he doesn't really care about money. Would you believe him?
Mike,
I think money and respect are a little different.
Bill obviously cares about the money, he worked hard to get it.
I obviously care about being respected, I work hard to be a positive role model, and a positive voice in this communitty.. Do I care about the green dots that come with it.... not really, but it's always nice to see I'm appreciated.
I think your analogy is slightly flawed.
Though I guess, you don't have to believe me...
John
MikeDubreuil
06-04-2004, 20:48
Mike,
I think your analogy is slightly flawed.
Though I guess, you don't have to believe me...
Bad analogy here's another one...
It would be like asking John Kerry what he thinks of the democratic nomination process.
Slightly better analogy.
I didn't mean to call anyone a liar. It's just I don't think anyone could say that they are neutral feeling about the rep system, especially if they say they enjoy receive positive points.
Yan Wang
06-04-2004, 21:00
To answer the question of this thread, I believe that more thought does need to be put into clicking that little button in the top right... I agree with the Kens - make sure you're deciding whether you approve/disapprove and NOT whether you agree/disagree. Most ridiculous negative rep I got was for "What's in your CD player right now?" - I don't care whether you like my CD or whether you don't.
... and in the case that you are trying to give rep, don't be a fool like me and accidently take it away from someone ;)
Astronouth7303
06-04-2004, 21:03
For me, the reputation system is more of a way to show someone u agree, or disagree with out having to clutter the forums, then they can carry out the discussion through ...PMs if needed.
Oh, I think of them as saying "Good job!" when someone writes something eloquently and conveyingly. On the flip side, you can also use them to tell some one that they stepped out of line. The PMs are for, I think, to tell someone something that doesn't need to be said in a forum. (Agree/disagree, minor point, etc.)
Some do take the system a little too seriously. I left my account signed on by accident, and i guess my sister gave someone bad rep through my account, they got angered, PMed me asking why i gave them bad rep then gave me bad rep and in the comments wrote "see the first ammendment", before giving me a chance to explain.
Yikes. I do NOT agree with someone giving someone else rep based on rep. So much for "Gracious Profetionalism."
I am perfectly content with my two dots. (Though if anyone will give me more, I won't complain.)
Ditto. See my signature.
(but I am a little surprised. I'm a rookie and already have 8 rep comments. Of course, I'm averaging 4.96 posts a day! That's 392 posts. Do the math.)
Brandon Martus
06-04-2004, 21:05
As usual, Ken gives a great idea. Wouldn't be too hard to put a 'Neutral' just so you can give points. It would count towards your 'X per day' and 'X per person' and such, but I don't think thats too much of a problem, is it?
Astronouth7303
06-04-2004, 21:05
I accidently did that once. I just gave them 2 pluses. (one to cancel it, one to add rep)
Tom Bottiglieri
06-04-2004, 21:08
As usual, Ken gives a great idea. Wouldn't be too hard to put a 'Neutral' just so you can give points. It would count towards your 'X per day' and 'X per person' and such, but I don't think thats too much of a problem, is it?
that would be great.. theres been alot of times i just want to make a quick, stupid comment without posting or having to deal with PM's
I personally like the rep points. I am one with few but I also don't post as much as others. When I do post I like to think that what I say is worthwhile and informative. Yes I look at my rep points. What I really like is not those who give me points but those who take time to tell me why. This is a good indicator to me that I am not just talking but how what I say affects others. If I deserve neg points then let them fly but please let me know why.
As for points that I give, they are given sparingly. I have not yet given any neg reps even though I have thought about it. My feelings are that if I give only for great posts or ones that really hit home then I don't have to give neg points. One thing that I like about FIRST is the way people encourage, help and assist one another. Should we be any different here? As for those who chase and neg points everything that someone says, they need to look at themselves and their reason for being on CD. This is a great tool that is a priveledge to belong to. Please don't abuse this and look for the good in people and this forum.
Brandon, continue your great work here and thanks for the opportunty to be a part of the Chief Delphi Forums.
Astronouth7303
06-04-2004, 21:22
Counter-Point: There is no easy way to know when you crossed a line, if someone gives you a neg rep, you better have crossed a line. I have given 1 rep point, and don't really care. But I would like to be able to revoke any rep that was given inapropriately or accidentely. (With apropriate safties of course; requiring your password?)
Joe Ross
06-04-2004, 21:34
As usual, Ken gives a great idea. Wouldn't be too hard to put a 'Neutral' just so you can give points. It would count towards your 'X per day' and 'X per person' and such, but I don't think thats too much of a problem, is it?
Would it be possible to instead of just positive, negative, and neutral, to allow us to chose how many points to give (within the range already used).
That way, I can give some points to someone being helpful, and a lot of points to someone who went completely out of their way to help. And the same things with the negatives, I can give out a few negative points for minor abuses, and big points for large personal attacks, etc.
One thing to remember is that reputation averages out over the long run. If you annoy a few people, but make many more people happy, your reputation will increase (although maybe not as fast as someone who makes everyone happy ;)). Remember, JVN stated that he's gotten many negatives, but many more positives.
Another thing to know is that the same person gives out less negative points then positive points. So, even if a person gives out 50/50 positive/negative, the overall reputation increases. I think I give out about 2/3 positive, 1/3 negative, and from what I gather, I give out more negatives then the average person. Also, I've only had one person give me negative reputation as a result of me giving them a negative (and a few nasty IMs). But, much more often, the people thank me for bringing them back to earth.
At times I am frustrated by the reputation system, because I'll put a lot of effort into a post and not receive anything for it. But then, I'll get positives for some post that I consider inane.
Currently, I think that the reputation system measures a combination of effort and popularity. It isn't perfect, but overall, I like it (and yes, I'm one of those people with more then 3 dots).
3D Model Showcase 02-28-2004 11:41 PM M. Krass edit one post instead of making three.
12-27-2003 12:14 AM M. Krass please write properly.
...not just posting too many times or using ur instead your???
I think much more highly of people who take the time write thoughtful, coherent posts on these forums than I do of people who use shorthand slang like "ur" or who aren't considerate enough to edit or proofread their posts. As Kris has said, the ability to communicate is probably the most significant thing we can have. Don't compromise it from sloth. Were I to meet you, among the first thoughts in my mind would surely be, "You're the poster who doesn't bother to use proper english." I promise. Be a bit less presumptuous about telling me what is or isn't personally important.
Also, I think it makes complete sense that those who think the reputation system is working fine are the people with the highest reputation. These people have proven repeatedly that they are capable of examining a situation with as little influence from personal bias as possible. I don't believe for a second that any one of the people who're supporting the system are doing so because they're treated well by it.
Remember, JVN stated that he's gotten many negatives, but many more positives.
The best part is, they are mostly from the same person.
I have a negative rep-stalker... someone who I know has a personal grudge against me. It's actually kind of humorous to get -3 from them for a post, and then +20 from another person for the same post. Makes me smile. :D
"JVN, hated by some. Loved by others." ;)
John
Tom Bottiglieri
06-04-2004, 21:45
The best part is, they are mostly from the same person.
I have a negative rep-stalker... someone who I know has a personal grudge against me. It's actually kind of humorous to get -3 from them for a post, and then +20 from another person. Makes me smile. :D
"JVN, hated by some. Loved by others." ;)
John
ohh ohh ohh who is it?!!
KenWittlief
06-04-2004, 22:26
Do I think less of a person who can't express himself to me? Absolutely. Being able to communicate is not an "insignificant thing".
not everyone can put their ideas into words clearly -
and not everyone can type with their fingers - before you slam someone for their ability to communicate stop and consider, they might be strapped in a wheelchair and typing with a pencil between their teeth
or english could be their 4th language (I never correct someones english unless I can do so in their native language)
no one likes a spelling or grammer nazi :^)
Brandon Martus
06-04-2004, 22:46
What I really like is not those who give me points but those who take time to tell me why. This is a good indicator to me that I am not just talking but how what I say affects others. If I deserve neg points then let them fly but please let me know why.I'm seriously considering making the comment required. But, I know that people will just put '.' or spaces or something. Maybe a 3 or 4 X-letter-word minimum or something. :shrug:
Brandon, continue your great work here and thanks for the opportunty to be a part of the Chief Delphi Forums.Thank you for participating. It'd be a blank website without all of you. :)
computhief263
06-04-2004, 22:50
Truthfully i dont see a point of rep. Nor do i see its usefulness. Therefore i dont use it at all.
Different ppl use rep for different purposes, if you use it as a way of showing u agree/disagree w/ someone or as a way to show ur respect for some one and thier opinion...then rock on! I think thats a perfect reason to use it.
But its the ppl that use rep as a popularity contest or as a way to flame another cd member or just giving rep to a person b/c that person gave them positive/negative rep, that i dont agree w/. And b/c thats mostly what i saw at the begining of the rep system i felt no reason to use rep...and still dont
If i got good rep pts, w00t (<---that one is for tom), if bad, well, that sux
....ROFL w00t (yay mary, my master plan worked) :cool: :]
c-squared_2006
06-04-2004, 23:01
Reputation is a delicate subject. They may change the way you make friends completely. If one carries the rep for being dependent then the person will be able to gain more trust. But if another person has the rep for being a gossipy person, I'm certainly not going to trust telling them my inner most thoughts. Reputations are basically social standards, we all are going to conform some what no matter what, in order to keep things operating smoothly. Or else the person who refuses to be polite, considerate, or something is just a bug in the program. I personally like to think of reputation as being something to treasure. Because it really does affect what people think of you. My grammar is not great nor is my spelling, but English is my second language. Sorry!
Reputation is a delicate subject.
I think we can forgive you because you're new to this website, but we're discussing the reputation system of rating posts that's a part of the forums we use here; not reputation in any social sense.
Kris Verdeyen
06-04-2004, 23:41
not everyone can put their ideas into words clearly -
I understand, but that doesn't change the fact that a first impression is vital. The largest percentage of those who cannot put their ideas into words are just lazy. If I meet a person who mispronounces simple words, or calls me "dog" when I first meet him, it says something about him.
Of course, as you pointed out, first impressions are not always all they're cracked up to be, but they are how you'll judge (and be judged by) 99% of the people you'll meet in your life, and therefore aren't insignificant.
no one likes a spelling or grammer nazi
It's spelled grammar.:)
I'm seriously considering making the comment required. But, I know that people will just put '.' or spaces or something. Maybe a 3 or 4 X-letter-word minimum or something. :shrug:Please do make the comment required. I find it annoying to recieve a rep (good or bad) and then have no idea what they though was so 'bad' or 'good' about that post. I don't think it would be a huge issue with people putting spaces or random letters in. Many of the people I recieve reps from are people who are people who spend lots of time here and are helpful contributers. I believe that if you forced them to put something in the box, they would take the time to. :)
MikeDubreuil
07-04-2004, 08:45
Please do make the comment required. I find it annoying to recieve a rep (good or bad) and then have no idea what they though was so 'bad' or 'good' about that post. I don't think it would be a huge issue with people putting spaces or random letters in. Many of the people I recieve reps from are people who are people who spend lots of time here and are helpful contributers. I believe that if you forced them to put something in the box, they would take the time to. :)
Another feature I think would be benifcial is at the top of each post you indicated how many positive or negative points a post received. This would encourage people to give positive points for those that don't alway recieve them. At the same time, it would cut back on someone receiving too many negative points for a post. This could be a check and balance feature to make sure posts aren't receiving unnecessary rep points, for instance chit-chat posts between friends.
Another feature I think would be benifcial is at the top of each post you indicated how many positive or negative points a post received. This would encourage people to give positive points for those that don't alway recieve them. At the same time, it would cut back on someone receiving too many negative points for a post. This could be a check and balance feature to make sure posts aren't receiving unnecessary rep points, for instance chit-chat posts between friends.There could be your a dot (:)) next to, say, the "Add to rep." button that is either green, red, or not there. Hovering over it could tell you the number of positive/negative rep points given to that post.
I like the idea, but I want to just state now that if you happen to think of displaying the names of people who have given reps to a post, don't. (Just being pro-active. :))
KenWittlief
07-04-2004, 10:04
The largest percentage of those who cannot put their ideas into words are just lazy.
how can you say that? esp on a forum when you cant see or hear the person you are communicating with?
there are many forms of learning disabilities and communcation disabilities that people suffer from - and for them to post on a public forum is esp couragious - then to have someone come back and say NOTHING about the content of their message, or to NOT answer their questions, but to slam them for their speeling gramer form font #of posts in a row is a real blow to their self image and confidence
if ur an intllgnt prsn u cn get the meaning fm vry crptc frms of comnction
rght?
KenWittlief
07-04-2004, 10:12
Reputation is a delicate subject. They may change the way you make friends completely....
I think your post is right on the money - whether you meant to or not, you have grasped what the rep system is about on this forum
when someone earns a bad reputation on this forum its very easy for people to go back and search that persons posts, and see the tone or attitude of the way they communcate
once someone has checked out a persons background to see why they have the rep they do it, then yes, it absolutely WILL affect the way they react to your posts.
The Chief Delphi forum IS a social interaction - its a new and unique form of human interaction too, because you cant see the persons face you are communcating with, and a ton of expressive information is missing. Its very easy for ten different people to read a post and come away with different impressions, because those visual communcation clues are absent.
Kris Verdeyen
07-04-2004, 11:23
how can you say that? esp on a forum when you cant see or hear the person you are communicating with?
Because I didn't say, "everyone", I said "the largest percentage", which is true. There are many many more people on this forum who obscure worthless, inane statements with bad grammar and spelling than those who do so when they have something worthwhile to say.
if ur an intllgnt prsn u cn get the meaning fm vry crptc frms of comnction
Yes, I can usually buy a vowel or two and throw it in the right place. But if the person who really wanted to communicate something to me had checked their spelling in the first place, I would believe more readily that they actually wanted to know the answer, which would lead me to give a more thoughtful response back. If the question looks like it took two seconds worth of thought to come up with, why should I spend ten minutes writing out a well-reasoned response?
All that said, I do understand that there are many learning and physical disablilities that can impede communication. However, I do not think that people who have the capability to express themselves should get a free pass to be lazy because someone else in the world has a disability.
Originally Posted by Brandon Martus
I'm seriously considering making the comment required. But, I know that people will just put '.' or spaces or something. Maybe a 3 or 4 X-letter-word minimum or something. :shrug:
I think that this would be an excellent idea to put in place. I said the same thing in another thread about the same subject awhile back, but making people stop and think about exactly why they are giving out Reputation points (or taking them away) will help put an end to abuse of the reputation point system. People are always more logical when they are forced to stop for a minute and really consider what they are about to do.
KenWittlief
07-04-2004, 12:34
All that said, I do understand that there are many learning and physical disablilities that can impede communication. However, I do not think that people who have the capability to express themselves should get a free pass to be lazy because someone else in the world has a disability.
I agree with you that everyone should strive for their fullest potential, and that lazyness is not something to be nurtured
but how many quiet, shy or disabled people are you willing to risk offending, or scaring off from posting here, buy creating the impression that CD is a hostile and uppidy place, just to rebuke the occassional sloppy poster?
do you do this in person? if someone is speaking to you do you stop and correct their grammer or syntax? or insist they do not use slang in your presence?
if Steven Hawkins called you on the phone, without his speech synthesizer, would you listen to him for a minute and they go "hey man, Nmm Mnnn Hmm gbym Nmmmm mum mum! I can understand a word your saying - announciate dude, AYE NUN SEE ATE!"
?! :^)
Im not trying to pick on you here, Im pushing for a kinder, gentler CD - where people can post their thoughts and ideas, without someone examining their english with a spell checker and syntax compiler. The gracious part of GP is to expect people will make mistakes from time to time, and to let them go without shining a spotlite on them.
Kris Verdeyen
07-04-2004, 12:50
but how many quiet, shy or disabled people are you willing to risk offending, or scaring off from posting here, but creating the impression that CD is a hostile and uppidy place, just to rebuke the occassional sloppy poster?
if Steven Hawkins called you on the phone, without his speech synthesizer, would you listen to him for a minute and they go "hey man, Nmm Mnnn Hmm gbym Nmmmm mum mum! I can understand a word your saying - announciate dude, AYE NUN SEE ATE!"
I think this is where our misunderstanding lies. I don't rebuke those who post sloppily. I usually just don't say anything back.
It's interesting that you should mention Stephan Hawking, because, if you'll read what he's written, or listen to what he has to say, it's always well thought out and usually phrased in a funny or interesting way. You might even think that because it takes him so long to say anything with the synthesizer (all of his words are chosen by scrolling through a list), he makes sure that what he says is worth saying.
But no, I don't ridicule people publicly (except you, Ken :) ) for misspelled words and bad grammar, but it does affect the way I think about them, especially if I have no other frame of reference.
/edit - just saw the edit
I'm all for a kindler, gentler, easier to read CD.
/edit - a funny Stephen Hawking Story, I mean, as long as we're off topic:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.05/longbets.html?pg=2
Check out the 6th paragraph...
George1902
07-04-2004, 12:58
The gracious part of GP is to expect people will make mistakes from time to time, and to let them go without shining a spotlite on them.
But it's a two-way street, Ken. I'm willing to give people the benefit of the doubt on their mistakes if they're willing to make a real effort to limit them.
It is clear when a person is making no such effort.
I agree with you that everyone should strive for their fullest potential, and that lazyness is not something to be nurtured
but how many quiet, shy or disabled people are you willing to risk offending, or scaring off from posting here, buy creating the impression that CD is a hostile and uppidy place, just to rebuke the occassional sloppy poster?
do you do this in person? if someone is speaking to you do you stop and correct their grammer or syntax? or insist they do not use slang in your presence?
if Steven Hawkins called you on the phone, without his speech synthesizer, would you listen to him for a minute and they go "hey man, Nmm Mnnn Hmm gbym Nmmmm mum mum! I can understand a word your saying - announciate dude, AYE NUN SEE ATE!"
?! :^)
Im not trying to pick on you here, Im pushing for a kinder, gentler CD - where people can post their thoughts and ideas, without someone examining their english with a spell checker and syntax compiler. The gracious part of GP is to expect people will make mistakes from time to time, and to let them go without shining a spotlite on them.
Actually, it seems to me that the "quiet, shy or disabled people" are more likely to take their time and get their thoughts out in reasonably proper language. They also tend to improve in this ability with time. Ken Leung is a shining example of this. I used to get very frustrated trying to read his posts, until I realized that he was not a native speaker of english (then I gave him grace :) ). Now I have no trouble reading his posts, because his langauge and usage have improved, not because I became more accustomed to his style. If somebody is actually having trouble with the language, then that becomes obvious over time and we should ( and generally do) make allowances.
But it seems to me that the consensus of the members is that the language of this forum is standard american english, not IM speak. This has been discussed before in other threads. I have no problem with handing out a few negative rep points to people who obviously know better and are just being sloppy. Think of them as grammar corrections on a physics lab report. They are there to remind you to do better, but don't necessarily count against you in any real way either.
KyleGilbert45
07-04-2004, 13:33
This is my 2 cents about the system.. you can take it or leave it.....
Reputation (system)....Does it deserve this much thought at all?
While I believe this system had very good intentions at its inception, unfortunately I think its turning out to be more of a hassle than anyone wanted it to be. Even though I think the people at the top of the rep list really do belong there I fear that the system may be turning into more of a popularity contest. People shouldn’t base any opinion of the person based on how man green, grey, or red dots they have next to their name because this system isn’t perfect by any means. If anything, follow what LauraN and Brandon stated earlier. “The reputation system is just there to help you form your own opinions, not form them for you.”
I’m not sure what can be done to fix any errors with this system to make it more reputation based. Maybe a point reset with more strict rules and guidelines to giving out positive and negative points will fix the system? Maybe the system deserves a name change? Maybe we really don’t need the system at all? I’m not sure, but I don’t think that people shouldn’t be worrying this much about the Reputation System and how many colored dots they have next to their name.
computhief263
07-04-2004, 13:50
But it seems to me that the consensus of the members is that the language of this forum is standard american english, not IM speak. This has been discussed before in other threads. I have no problem with handing out a few negative rep points to people who obviously know better and are just being sloppy. Think of them as grammar corrections on a physics lab report. They are there to remind you to do better, but don't necessarily count against you in any real way either.
Granted people's ideas are easily understood if in proper english, but is it really that big of a deal if someone types part of a reply "IM speak"? I mean what if someone was typeing a reply that they felt was important but was in some kind of rush, and unconciously used some IM speak. Replacing your with "ur" or people with "ppl". Or conciously in the sake of speed use some shortcuts like "w/" for with of "b/c" for because? Or accidentlly mispelled a few words they werent sure how to spell. Does that mean that they are being sloppy? You can still understand what they are saying, right? I mean if stuff like that frustrates you that much then just stop reading the post. Give them negative rep if u wish, but that doesnt mean that they wont make the mistake again.
if ur an intllgnt prsn u cn get the meaning fm vry crptc frms of comnction
rght?
Like he said, "no one likes a spelling and grammar nazi". Especially when the spelling/grammar mistake was just that... a MISTAKE.
Yes, I can usually buy a vowel or two and throw it in the right place. But if the person who really wanted to communicate something to me had checked their spelling in the first place, I would believe more readily that they actually wanted to know the answer, which would lead me to give a more thoughtful response back. If the question looks like it took two seconds worth of thought to come up with, why should I spend ten minutes writing out a well-reasoned response?
I'll throw my support in with Ken. Some people honestly aren't that good at English. Not only are there are people who's native langauge isn't Engish and people with disablities, there are also those who parents can't afford to send them to a private school and live in the inner city, where their kid goes to a public school. They might not even have learned, at least it wasn't important, what good grammar and spelink (;)) is. If someone is trying to answer another's question or their asking a question of their own, does the fact that they use 'to' where they should have used 'too' invaidate what they are saying?
Some people honestly aren't that good at English.
Y'know, not for anything, but I don't really know squat about engineering. I'm a really, really bad math student and I didn't pay a cent's worth of attention in any of the mechanical engineering classes I took. If you really examine some of the things I post, that's patently clear.
When I make a post to these forums that has even the slightest hint of math or engineering theory in it, I check myself over; sometimes two or three times. I do pages and pages of equations to make sure I didn't miss something. I check references to make sure that my formulas are correct. Then, I spell check and reread my post to make sure that I'm communicating that hard work I just did in the best way that I can.
I don't care if you're not very good with speaking or writing English. I put a lot of work into the things I'm not very good with and I'm, honestly, quite tired of the excuses I see from people who are nothing short of lazy. If English isn't your strongest subject, work harder. If you have a disability that makes writing or understanding language more difficult, you can let me know and I'll keep it in mind as I read things you post. It's still not an excuse for sloth (i.e., ur, u, ne1, etc.) End of story.
there are also those who parents can't afford to send them to a private school
Hey, I have had the entirety of my education take place in public schools and colleges and I speak and write English very well.
and live in the inner city
Let's not even start with dumb generalizations about social classes and their intelligence, okay?
Let's not even start with dumb generalizations about social classes and their intelligence, okay?This was just my example of a situation where someone might not be afforded the greatest education. I'm not saying that this is true of all inner cities, it is just a case which may be true in some cases.
No offense intended to anyone. I'm sorry if it does.
The point of these forums is to offer a place for people to communicate. If you want to communicate with the largest amount of people you will use plain, simple English that is nearly grammer and spelling perfect. Using IM chat is okay in some area such as Chit-Chat but for the general forum it advised against. Not everyone understands all IM text while almost everyone can read English. If you choose to use IM or Slang make a note to it's meaning if it is something not known by many.
Being grammatically sound isn't as important as being sound in your content and how you present that content. I seem to use a lot of .... I don't go sentence to ..... sentence. But I always try to use language people can understand and put in a way that I can convey my thoughts.
As for reputation, negative comments should only be placed on those misusing the forums purposely. Sometime you should choose to PM instead.
As for making them right their reason to make them be more rational in their thoughts, it won't work. I got a negative comment once that just said "No!, you're wrong." If negative comments were given out strictly because you said a imperfect comment I don't think I would stick around here.
So be nice on both sides. Use English (sorry, it's not fair), don't be mean, and stop worrying and start having fun. That's what they are for aren't they.
BTW - I have more than three dots so I support the dots.
computhief263
07-04-2004, 14:46
I don't care if you're not very good with speaking or writing English. I put a lot of work into the things I'm not very good with and I'm, honestly, quite tired of the excuses I see from people who are nothing short of lazy. If English isn't your strongest subject, work harder. If you have a disability that makes writing or understanding language more difficult, you can let me know and I'll keep it in mind as I read things you post. It's still not an excuse for sloth (i.e., ur, u, ne1, etc.) End of story.
Excuse me for saying so, but i think your logic is a bit flawed.
Thats good that you put alot of effort into everything you do, and im sure its served u well with many things. But who are you to decided the difference between when somebody is struggling to get thier ideas across and when thier just lazy?
Lets say Person A (a member of the CD forums) is reading a thread, and feels they know something or have a idea that would benefit the discussion. Now thier not the greatest at expressing themselves in any form, but thier working on it and slowly getting better. Does that make what their trying to say anyless signifigant? Are you gonna disregaurd them simply because of a flaw they are working to correct?
I myself cant stand people using rediculous excuses, especially when thier just lazy. But i dont feel that anyone has the right to make snap judgements about another person simply because of some MISTAKES. Especially when 90% of the time you havent (and probably wont) meet the person face to face. Itelligence of a person or worth of thier statments shouldnt be based on words you read on a computer screen.
EDIT: This is the type of thing i think reputation should NOT be based on.
Chris Hibner
07-04-2004, 15:07
Back to the topic a little...
I can definitely agree that the system needs some improvement since it is apparently being abused in some cases. However, I don't feel that there's any need to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Further improvements are always a good thing. I think the improvements about requiring a comment would be good. I also like the idea of just being able to give comments.
Before the reputation system, there really was a LOT of garbage on these boards. Since the reputation system, I must say that things have been cleaned up quite a bit. For that, I thank the reputation system. Can things be improved? Always - but I think this system is an improvement over the previous system.
Like he said, "no one likes a spelling and grammar nazi". Especially when the spelling/grammar mistake was just that... a MISTAKE.
Mastikes heppan, I even make one or two a year ;). If it is just a mistake, then that will be evident from the rest of what that person has posted. Many times I personally won't even notice misspellings and other minor errors because my brain automatically "fixes" things to what it thinks it should be. Most of the time the only reason I even notice other's mistakes is my "autofix routine" produces something that doesn't make sense. So I have to look twice.
I am not concerned with mistakes nor do I jump on people for obvious mistyping or misspelling of uncommon words. I am concerned that standards of good english be upheld and that those who practice them be recognized in a positive way. I feel that it is especially important for those of us who are mentors to provide an example in this area. Though I can not recall any mentors who have a problem with this.
Maybe that is the best argument. Those of us who are professionals and trying to be examples to you all CHOOSE to communicate using standard english. We work to make our posts examples of clear thinking and understandable to all. If you are trying to be like us, to eventually do the jobs we do, shouldn't you be striving to do the same?
Writing well takes practice. But once you have learned to do it, it is actually harder to use slang, because you have to think about it. This is a great place to practice your writing skills, because there is no real penalty if you do not do it well. Yes, your "Reputation" might suffer for a little while. But what does that cost you? It is not like it goes on your transcript and stays there forever like failing an English class would.
On the other hand, if you only can type IM speak, because that is all you have practiced, what are the chances that your resume will be accepted at a large company? It might be good enough at "Joe's Computers" down the street, but it will not work at Raytheon, Northrop Grumman, Rolls Royce, or NASA to name a prominent few.
If you do start to communicate well using a language we can all read, maybe your "Reputation" will grow too. Stranger things have happened.
By the way. Some of you may have noticed that the first two words of my response are misspelled. That was deliberate and intended for a humorous effect (and therefore not a mistake). If I habitually misspelled words or took other shortcuts, then the joke would not "work". I can take liberties and use them to effect because I know what is "supposed to be" and you know that I know because of my other writing, even within this post. If I wrote the rest of this post in IM speak and slang, then you would think I was just another ignoramus.
Amanda Morrison
07-04-2004, 17:03
I think this is where our misunderstanding lies. I don't rebuke those who post sloppily. I usually just don't say anything back.
I'm all for a kindler, gentler, easier to read CD.
Kris is completely right.
Maybe I am a grammar elitist, but I will come out and say that I DO judge people on their ability to communicate on these forums. This of course is NOT to say that I do anything to disparage the ideas of bad spellers or those who abbreviate. Let me explain.
I can't expect everyone on these forums to be great at English. In fact, assuming that would be ridiculous; nobody is perfect. I can't expect everyone's posts to be clear, consise, or even in the same tense... I am not an English teacher. And yes, I make mistakes. A vast majority of my own posts edited by myself are from proofreading and realizing that something is wrong.
But looking at some posts, it might as well be Greek to us to decipher them. Nobody wants to sit here and sound out your AOL abbreviations when they're looking for quick, honest programming help. And guaranteed, it doesn't make you look so hot when you're posting something about your team and can barely spell out what you are trying to say. English is not the language of the future here, people. This is basic communication. Learn it. It's kinda like writing bad code on purpose - it's pointless and you're just going to end up with a lot of people not looking upon you so highly. 'ur' and 'u' and all these incorrect, ignorant misspellings just make things harder to read.
Are these negative rep-worthy? Not really. But guaranteed, 500 posts from the same person writing incorrectly and indecipherably are going to get VERY annoying VERY quickly. Spelling and grammar nazi's may be a little out of hand, but if nobody can tell what you are saying, why are you bothering to post? That's where repping the person comes into play.
If you don't agree with this, that's fine. But you still read this and know what I mean because I can practice English somewhat correctly. I don't ask much but an attempt of the same. You may be here to learn about science and technology, but you'll go nowhere fast without clear communication.
_________________
As for some of the earlier posts about the reputation system being flawed, I ask you, what is the flaw? Judgement from peers? The reputation system is the same as it is in real life. If you can't get your ideas or information across and only talk to someone in one word sentences, I don't know that you're going to be highly regarded. That's the common thing with many of the people high on the list - they help, they communicate, they contribute. I'm surprised I'm up there with them, but just like John said, it hasn't been friends deciding it would be fun to rep me, just for the halibut. I've been negative repped before... Big deal. Sometimes things need to be said.
I'm not a huge fan of the reputation system, but that's mainly because I forget that it's there and generally send out a PM or IM if I need to say something about that post. It's a good system, though, if used correctly.
Again, it's like life - you're going to have to put up with some jerks... just deal and practice your self control, and mainly people will treat you with the same respect.
Stu Bloom
07-04-2004, 17:24
Mastikes heppan, ...
.
.
.
By the way. Some of you may have noticed that the first two words of my response are misspelled. That was deliberate and intended for a humorous effect (and therefore not a mistake). If I habitually misspelled words or took other shortcuts, then the joke would not "work". I can take liberties and use them to effect because I know what is "supposed to be" and you know that I know because of my other writing, even within this post. If I wrote the rest of this post in IM speak and slang, then you would think I was just another ignoramus.I'm sorry - I know this is one of those empty, 'space-wasting', possibly in-appropriate responses, but I just couldn't help myself ...
THAT was GREAT Chris ... pos. reps coming your way !!
Greg Ross
07-04-2004, 18:22
I am concerned that standards of good english be upheld and that those who practice them be recognized in a positive way.
Props for using the subjunctive mood properly, Chris. It's one of my favorites. You get a Grammar Curmudgeon gold star. http://home.pacbell.net/gwross/Gold__Star__Bold__Standard_Smiley.gif
MissInformation
07-04-2004, 18:22
I like the reputation system but I don't take it seriously. I think it's fun to see little comments people make about your post and I think it's a lot easier and quicker than sending a personal message.
And because I cannot pass by the whole discussion on grammar and spelling... I majored in English. I am not a Grammar Nazi, and I would never give someone negative points for such a thing, however, there are some posts I do not read because I don't want to sit there and figure out what was said. It's not just this site either; I'm like that on all the sites I visit.
Everyone makes mistakes. I know I've made them (heck, you can even look through some of the great Dave Lavery's posts and find some). And speaking of Dave, do you think he's gotten where he is on his engineering skills alone? On Math and Science alone? No, he uses his words as effectively (and affectively) as he uses the tools in his garage. Communication is very important and there are probably way too many intelligent people out there who are held back because they cannot communicate properly. English is not an easy subject for everyone, I understand this because I'm absolutely horrible with math (oh, I know the basics, one plus one equals three... er... two...) but if I gave as little attention to my Math skills as some people give to their English skills, I would find myself in serious trouble when it came to tax time. In other words, when I have to use math in my real life, I recognize my weakness and compensate with a calculator. Spell check is a wonderful thing (I know I'm running this post through it before I post it).
Okay, no more lecturing (for now). As far as the reputation system being flawed, I agree with Amanda 100%. Fair or unfair, it's life. As long as there is a system, there will be those who misuse it.
Heidi
<=========>
Spelled check suggested one ; for a , and a “that” for a “those” until I realized I had left out the “who”, then it accepted the “those".
One thing that bothers me is when people give you reputation points without explaining why, or leaving any comments.
I think we can forgive you because you're new to this website, but we're discussing the reputation system of rating posts that's a part of the forums we use here; not reputation in any social sense.
What reason is there to "forgive" c-squared_2006? Reputation is, after all, a social thing, not just a bunch of little green boxes. Isn’t the “system” on this website supposed to link back to the usual concept of reputation?
I have noticed that this thread, in particular, is social. As an English major who grew up among engineers, is married to an engineer, and is bringing up a future engineer, I get a little sick of engineer-speak sometimes, and, I confess, read mostly the “social” threads on CD.
I’ve also noticed that much of the discussion in this thread is about the importance of proper English usage, and whether it affects social abilities (and reputation, in either sense).
By the way, I would beware of offending c-squared_2006, who is a scout for Team 1015. I wouldn’t want to jeopardize my team’s reputation with that team, if we should find ourselves in an alliance with them... ;-)
Salik Syed
07-04-2004, 20:04
Well...i mean sorry...i guess i shouldn't have but.. if you say something you say it and i have a right to tell people what you say.... It's not like i'm saying anything negative
since it's called the reputation system it should be more like a real reputation not where your rep goes down for not writing properly or multiposting.
btw the negative reps i got because of that...they are actually correct..! (Yes! I was actually stupid this time!)
i'm not saying these people are dumb or stupid ... i don't even know them at all...i'm just saying this about the REP SYSTEM and how you get a bed rep for doing things not really bad... i guess maybe I SHOULD have censored the names but why??? do I have to hide you ... you said it don't be ashamed of it...
Also i'm not really trying to gloat i just wanted to show an example of what negative feeds backs you get and how most of them really don't make sense (at least in my view of how the Rep system should be) ..... I guess i was too lazy to censor the names and thought oh well YOU SAID IT not me
i've actually gotten postive Rep for that post too
Salik Syed
07-04-2004, 20:12
Arrgghhh. can't edit my post .... (sorry for multi posting ) i tried to censor the names but I can't see the edit button, anyways one more thing... I really don't care about the reputation system I just think its stupid the way it is right now (and not cause i have a bad rep ... well now I do ....)
about the grammer issue:
ur and btw are pretty well known ... anyone on the internet can understand it, also most of us don't have time to write our post in word spell check, indent and do all that other good stuff, I get on Chiefdelphi in the morning before school and I try to get my questions answered or maybe help someone else out, I try to communicate the message best I can but just because you use a double negative or whatever doesn't matter...many people have more important things to do .
What reason is there to "forgive" c-squared_2006? Reputation is, after all, a social thing, not just a bunch of little green boxes. Isn’t the “system” on this website supposed to link back to the usual concept of reputation?
Yes, of course, that's an accurate description of the system. I did not mean to suggest that they could not or should contribute to the conversation here; only that it didn't seem like they understood the system that was being discussed. That's an "error" than I'm quite willing to overlook exactly because it the content of the post was still somewhat germane to ideas presented throughout the thread.
By the way, I would beware of offending c-squared_2006, who is a scout for Team 1015. I wouldn’t want to jeopardize my team’s reputation with that team, if we should find ourselves in an alliance with them... ;-)
For some people, I know that such consequences are important to consider. I'm lucky that I'm not one of those people :) But, again, I don't mean to harbor any bad feelings over something insignificant.
EddieMcD
07-04-2004, 21:39
I'll point to this post. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=223611) Here's a little transcript of my post in that thread. My view's haven't really changed.
-----------------------
I'll tell you this right now. I very rarely (if at all) give out rep. I don't even look at rep. It's all the way on the right side of the page, after all. I can glance through posts without looking at any green whatsoever. Besides, why should someone with 10 green dots be taken more seriously than someone with one green (or heck, even still on gray) when at face value, all their opinions are very valid. In which case I'm forced to think who deserves my rep. Does that person with 10 dots deserve it more simply because he has the 10 dots. Maybe I should give a leg-up to the person with 1. If it goes to the person with 10, it's a popularity thing. If I go to the 1, it's a pity thing. Maybe I give it to both, but that almost defeats the purpose of the system.
And then there's bad rep. I myself have gotten bad rep based on Jeopardy questions. How wrong is that? If someone only adds one line to a discussion, should I give him bad rep? I mean, he is adding to the discussion after all. Should all posts under one line be judged as bad? There may be valid opinions in that one line. Maybe someone double posts (which is very often by accident). Should they be penalized for that? I don't agree with a post? Bad rep? (I'd never give out bad rep because someone disagrees with me, but I'm sure it happens). Someone has started flaming other users. Should he be given bad rep? Yes he should (sorry, just making sure you're still paying attention ;) ). If someone pointlessly gives you bad rep, do you have the right to fire back at them (which is a dangerous thing considering a lot of people can fire a negative rep of 15 points)?
I speak my mind. It's just who I am. Which puts me between a rock and a hard place. I want to get my opinion out there (i.e., speak my mind). The problem is my opinion often differs from that of my peers (in this case, the users of CD). I'm not afraid of bad rep, but I'd kinda like that bad rep to be justified. Are you going to give me bad rep because I disagree with Operation Reelect- er, I mean Operation Iraqi Freedom? Are you going to give me good rep because you're good friends with me? Things like this have made me just disregard the entire rep system.
I'm not saying that rep is just a popularity contest, or a tool to keep political enimies (for lack of a better name) at bay. You have no clue how tempted I was to fire a -15 bomb in the direction of the people who gave me bad rep based on Jeopardy questions. I never did, but I wouldn't be suprised if that's another large source of bad rep. I'm pretty sure that a lot of rep givin out is deserved either way. But even if 90% of all rep givin out is justified (and IMO, it's probably less than that), that makes 10% of the system a popularity contest, and a way to oppress those that disagree with you. And 10% of all the points givin out (or heck, lets count 10% of the people) is a lot of points (or people). Again, I'm just speaking my mind. I'll take you seriously even if you're in red. And I won't let other people's opinions on you (in the form of rep), be them good or bad, influence how I feel about what you say. You agree with me? Cool. You don't? Maybe we can have a friendly debate on that topic. Don't be afraid to post what's on your mind. You'll never get bad rep from me if you do.
So, how 'bout them Red Sox?
I had experience with rep point from posting over on @Forums (http://209.123.85.43/) .
I really could take it or leave it.
Seriously.
Rep points are not going to affect the way I post or how I go about my business. I got most of my rep from Fantasy FIRST and it's nice (i'm not going to lie and say it's not) but I didn't do Fantasy FIRST to gain popularity. I did it because I thought it was a fun idea that no one else came up with so I took the initative.
Never base your posts on reputation, spotlights or fishing for compliments. Just say whats on your mind and you'll find you will not only gain greater respect in the ChiefDelphi community but you will feel greater respect for yourself as well.
I am new to CD Forums but one of the first things I noticed was the rep system. I didn't really know what it was but I noticed that people with a lot of green dots are the "popular" ones. I'm not a big fan of the system just because the only reason people get bad reps. is because they speak their mind and I don't have a problem with that, unless there are personal attacks. I know that someone like me won't get to many positive points and I'll probably get negative ones for this post but my point is, there is no need to take it so seriously, everyone's opinion is valid. The CD Forum is great and I hope it stays that way!
MikeDubreuil
07-04-2004, 23:01
Currently for my involvement in this thread I have received the following rep points:
Red: 2
Green: 1
Grey: 2
What does the grey rep point mean?
KyleGilbert45
07-04-2004, 23:03
Grey means the person that gave you rep doesn't have any points to give so they just basically gave you "0" points..... i think...
Main Entry: rep·u·ta·tion
Pronunciation: "re-py&-'tA-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English reputacioun, from Latin reputation-, reputatio consideration, from reputare
1 a : overall quality or character as seen or judged by people in general b : recognition by other people of some characteristic or ability <has the reputation of being clever>
2 : a place in public esteem or regard : good name
- rep·u·ta·tion·al /-shn&l, -sh&-n&l/ adjective
I don't see "Green Dot" in there anywhere.
My fear is that this whole reputation thing has turned into more of a popularity contest then anything else. A person with lots of green dots next to their name is more likely to receive additional green dots. A person’s reputation should exist as respect by the general community for a person, not as a number associated with their name. I would like to see an option in the user cp to disable the reputation dots from appearing next to a person’s name.
In my opinion this forums has become a giant popularity contest. In the past few years I have realized that FIRST is, in many ways, very different from what I thought I had gotten involved with. I find this very disappointing.
I have received only one "red dot" and to earn it I had to brutally flame a fellow teammate (sorry Yan). I’m sure I’ll probably see a few more red dots from this response.
Greg
Matt Adams
08-04-2004, 02:12
My fear is that this whole reputation thing has turned into more of a popularity contest then anything else. A person with lots of green dots next to their name is more likely to receive additional green dots.
In my opinion this forums has become a giant popularity contest. In the past few years I have realized that FIRST is, in many ways, very different from what I thought I had gotten involved with. I find this very disappointing.I've never been angry and shot from the hip on these forums... I guess there's a first time for everything.
Let's take a look at the top 5 people with the most reputation on these forums:
Andy Baker
JVN
Dave Lavery
Ken Leung
Joe Johnson
These guys have a lot of reputation points. You know why? Because these five individuals consistantly write concise, sincere, worthwhile, timely, and intelligent posts on a wide variety of topics, sharing a lot of mature insight, including some incredible technical knowledge. They've been around for a long while.
Are the popular? You bet! Why? Because they're honest, sincere people who try to better this online community. What's not to like? They have an immense amount of respect from the people on these boards because of their contributions.
Popularity in high school is a different thing than in real life, and is much different than among the gracious professionals in FIRST. These people are wildly "popular" because they're honest and fun people, not for the superficial reasons that people tend to be popular in high school.
I've heard people in this thread consistantly whine about how they've been around on CD and think they deserve more reputation dots then they have.
Here's the blunt truth:
If you don't have a ton of green dots by your name, you probably don't deserve them.
I feel really humbled that people take the time via leaving some reputation points to let me know that I posted something worthwhile. I'm not in some exclusive circle of five people who exchange reputation points on a nightly basis. As a matter of fact, of the last 24 reputation comments I've received, they've come from 21 different members.
To further the point that this system isn't some sort of exclusive club, I only came on these boards 4 months ago and have met no more than 6 or 7 people outside of my team who post regularly on these boards. I don't have nearly the well founded history that the vast majority of people with high reputation do.
At risk of sounding arrogant - I am a case in point example that anyone who takes the time to post worthwhile, informative posts can rise up among the ranks of the reputation system on these forums.
Are you really concerned about increase the overall respect and reputation that you convey on these forums, (in the form of green dots or otherwise)? Here's a hint: Speak clearing about worthwhile topics that will help other people.
If you're going to sit around in the chit chat forums all day (which is perfectly fine) talking about the weather or other random topics, don't expect people to flood your box with green dots about how much they appreciate knowing that you spotted a Segway on your favorate NBC sitcom.
This is how the system is. Deal with it, or offer worthwhile improvements.
Don't complain that FIRST isn't really all it's cracked up to be or accuse the people who have worked hard within this community and have a lot reputation points simply have them because they're "popular" among some nonexistant clique.
Let's move on,
Matt
MikeDubreuil
08-04-2004, 04:12
I've never been angry and shot from the hip on these forums... I guess there's a first time for everything.
Let's take a look at the top 5 people with the most reputation on these forums:
Andy Baker
JVN
Dave Lavery
Ken Leung
Joe Johnson
I feel really humbled that people take the time via leaving some reputation points to let me know that I posted something worthwhile.
Matt- I've seen your posts. Some of them look like they could be white papers. Your reputation is well deserved. The people you mentioned fall under the same category.
What I'm saying is, there's some people out there who get reputation or even spotlighted, when they clearly should not have been.
In some regards, remember the superlatives section of the high school yearbook? I think the reputation system is working like that, mostly a popularity contest among a clique.
Brandon Martus
08-04-2004, 10:22
Excellent points, Matt.
I feel really humbled that people take the time via leaving some reputation points to let me know that I posted something worthwhile. I'm not in some exclusive circle of five people who exchange reputation points on a nightly basis. As a matter of fact, of the last 24 reputation comments I've received, they've come from 21 different members.And to add to this .. the system is designed in such a way that it forces you to give reputation to X other people before giving reputation to the same person again. This forces your reputation points to be spread out among more than just 1 or 2 people.
I'm curious as to how anyone knows anything about why and from whom people beside themselves receive reputation -- and can thus ascribe reasons for such high reputation with any accuracy at all. You all just don't know why others distribute reputation points and I find it ridiculous that you can pretend to understand something completely outside the realm of your knowledge.
The people with the highest reputation are the people with the most power to affect reputation. A popularity contest amongst people with one or two green dots isn't going to significantly affect the overall reputation ratings people receive, as those at the top of the list are, seemingly, consistently receiving positive reputation at an equal rate. Thus, everything remains relative. You're not all genuinely suggesting that people like John, Matt, Amanda, or Andy are engaged in some sort of clique where they each distribute reputation only to one another? That's laughable; and I know that, not because they all have many green dots up there on top of their posts, but because I've been lucky enough to have the opportunity to meet or speak privately with many of the best people in FIRST.
What I'm saying is, there's some people out there who get reputation or even spotlighted, when they clearly should not have been.
I'd like to see some examples of people that are undeserving, in your opinion, of the reputation they've received and further examples defining why such reputation is inappropriate.
Also, who do you feel deserves to have higher reputation that has not already received such?
Matt Leese
08-04-2004, 10:55
Originally Posted by ChrisH
I am concerned that standards of good english be upheld and that those who practice them be recognized in a positive way.
Props for using the subjunctive mood properly, Chris. It's one of my favorites. You get a Grammar Curmudgeon gold star. http://home.pacbell.net/gwross/Gold__Star__Bold__Standard_Smiley.gif
Shouldn't that be proper english and not good english? ;)
Matt
MikeDubreuil
08-04-2004, 11:02
I'd like to see some examples of people that are undeserving, in your opinion, of the reputation they've received and further examples defining why such reputation is inappropriate.
I'm not about to make this into a witch hunt.
EDIT: I think some excellent suggestions have made made for the reputation system. I look forward to seeing them put into place.
Let me just talk about myself a little bit before I start this post. But I assure you, it's to make a point. :p
I know for a fact that there is going to be at least one person who is not going to be happy with what I have to say. I can make similar statements about a lot of things. But given the potentially controversial nature of this thread, this is even more true than usual.
I am fully expecting to receive negative rep for this post. But I'm writing it anyway, because I have something to say. And you should take the same attitude. </egotism>
A person with lots of green dots next to their name is more likely to receive additional green dots.
I disagree. I honestly think the exact opposite is true- people with higher reputations are less likely to receive more reputation. Someone once said (I believe it was in an older post about reputation) that they'd be less likely to give rep to those with a long line of pretty green dots. Why not give it to the new guy with only one dot? And, if that person already has so much rep, then they need to really go above and beyond to get more, because you expect more from them. I'm also sure some people are intimidated by it. I might feel kind of silly giving rep to someone so much more "elite" than me. Do they really care what I think about their posts? (I'm sure they do, I'm just saying it's possible for that thought to cross your mind.) I'm not saying these ways of giving rep are the "right" way to do things (I don't think there is a "right" way to give rep), but they are things that cross people's minds. Also, as M. Krass said, I find it highly unlikely that there's some conspiracy run by John, Andy, Ken and Co to keep themselves at the top of the list.
Let's look at some examples. =)
I have a negative rep-stalker... someone who I know has a personal grudge against me. It's actually kind of humorous to get -3 from them for a post, and then +20 from another person for the same post. Makes me smile.
I feel really humbled that people take the time via leaving some reputation points to let me know that I posted something worthwhile. I'm not in some exclusive circle of five people who exchange reputation points on a nightly basis. As a matter of fact, of the last 24 reputation comments I've received, they've come from 21 different members.
To further the point that this system isn't some sort of exclusive club, I only came on these boards 4 months ago and have met no more than 6 or 7 people outside of my team who post regularly on these boards. I don't have nearly the well founded history that the vast majority of people with high reputation do.
To add my own personal perspective: I'm almost a hybrid of John and Matt. (Tell me that's not cool). Like Matt, I haven't been around awhile. (A little over a month). Also like Matt, I don't know many CD users in "real life." (I think the count stands at about 1.) Like John, I feel that there's abuse of the reputation system from personal experience. But my reputation isn't suffering. Because, like Matt, I've gotten positive reputation from 4 or 5 different CD users (key word: different). And a lot of them are pretty high up there in terms of reputation. So the idea that they're only giving rep to each other is disproven.
I'm not telling you this to make anyone mad, or to brag about my reputation, or anything like that. I don't like making people mad and I don't necessarily think my rep is much to brag about. But I'm telling you this to give you another perspective. John's been around for a few years. Matt for a few months. I've been around for a month. And in each case, the reputation system seems to be working just fine.
The bottom line: The reputation system is a system designed to allow people to be encouraged and constructively criticized by their peers. No good deed goes unpunished; all democracies are corrupt. There will always be someone ready and willing to abuse the system, but these "someone"s represent a small enough portion of the population that they don't matter. As shown by the examples listed above, the good balances out the bad. John has an insane amount of reputation, despite the fact that someone is abusing the system against him. Matt also has lots of reputation, without the "advantage" of knowing the "elite" personally.
Why is that? It's because, regardless of whether there's someone giving negative rep to those they don't like or positive to those they do, John and Matt are smart guys who write great posts. And the majority of the CD community is intelligent enough to recognize that and responsible enough to reward them for it properly. If this weren't the case, if the majority of users were abusing the system, they would not have the kind of reputation they do. And I don't think there are many people who would argue that these 2 don't deserve the rep they have.
So take it all with a grain of salt, form your own opinions, lead by example, act responsibly, be graciously professional, and everything will be ok.
And that's true for anything, not just a silly system based on virtual green dots.
Greg Ross
08-04-2004, 11:30
Shouldn't that be proper english and not good english? ;)
Matt
Well, if you really want to get nit-picky, it would be "standard" English. ;)
I've never been angry and shot from the hip on these forums... I guess there's a first time for everything.
Let's take a look at the top 5 people with the most reputation on these forums:
Andy Baker
JVN
Dave Lavery
Ken Leung
Joe Johnson
These guys have a lot of reputation points. You know why? Because these five individuals consistantly write concise, sincere, worthwhile, timely, and intelligent posts on a wide variety of topics, sharing a lot of mature insight, including some incredible technical knowledge. They've been around for a long while.
Yes, and they completely deserve it. Don't get me wrong. I wasn't trying to put down people with a lot of official reputation. I think most of these people would be respected without lots of green dots.
I really don't see this thread going anywhere but into a battle between have and have-nots, so I'm done.
Sorry if I offended anyone.
Greg
Matt Adams
08-04-2004, 12:18
In some regards, remember the superlatives section of the high school yearbook? I think the reputation system is working like that, mostly a popularity contest among a clique.Mike, I'm not shooting for any sort of personal attack here... I'd just suggest that you reread my post which you actually quoted.
In short, you and the handful of other people that suggested the reputation system is a popularity contest don't have any proof. It's making you (and those who have shared this opinion) sound like whiners. I'd suggest you try to save some face and quit this unfounded arguement which has ruffled the feathers of a lot of dedicated and passionate people.
The reputation system is not a clique, unless you consider the "clique" to be the 50 or 75 most active members here on CD. That doesn't sound like a clique to me, it sounds like like an online community.
Some don't believe that the people who are among the top of the reputation rankings deserve to be there. I'll even agree with you, there's a lot of people that I'd place higher on the list. That's fair, we're all entitled to our opinion. However, the community has spoken; the reputation system is a democratic process. Not everyone will agree all the time. And that's okay.
This isn't a battle between the haves and the have nots unless you make it one. If you see someone that you think should be higher in the reputation rankings, (and this bothers you so much you can't sleep at night), find their posts and give them positive reputation.
Unless, of course, that person is you... in which case you should perhaps use this as a good lesson in humility. True respect and admiration from your peers is something that must be earned, not something that we can demand.
Matt
MikeDubreuil
08-04-2004, 12:50
Mike, I'm not shooting for any sort of personal attack here... I'd just suggest that you reread my post which you actually quoted.
Matt, the reason I left a blank space between the paragraphs was because the two ideas were mutualy exclusive. I don't think that you or the people you listed are in here for a popularity contest.
I may look like a whiner. Am I a little upset that I don't have more reputation? Sure, I help out a lot on the boards and recieve very little reputation for it. However, this is something that doesn't just effect me. I certainly am not losing sleep about my reputation situation.
For my involvement in this thread I have received 1 positive, 2 negative, and 3 grey points (of which would have been green). I don't think I'm speaking for just myself when I say that the reputation system could use some improvement, and that some members might be taking advantage of it.
I guess the only way I can give some proof is to talk in general terms. I don't want to call people out, because that is unfair. There are certain people who have a lot of reputation, but if you look at their post history, you're left scratching your head. When you look at others and wonder how they could have enough time in the day to have such great posts.
I'm not sure if I'm going to continue with my argument. Not because I think I'm in the wrong. It's just after writing the previous paragraph I realize it would be very difficult to explain the situation without being offendingly specific in the instances where the system might be abused.
This is not a personal grudge I hold against people. Please don't think about it that way. I'd love to have lunch and talk FIRST with everyone in this thread. I just don't always understand why they have such high reputation, maybe a lunch with them and I'll understand ;)
I think to have such high positive reputations these people have had to consistently have good post.
I have five green dots (nearly six) since January. I'll tell you how I've got them.
First I'm here a lot and post a lot. I'm averaging 5 and a half post a day. That gives me a fair chance at having a lot of good post (or bad ones).
Next, I try my hardest to answer questions when I have expertise of sorts in them. This really doesn't get you a lot of points usually because people who really need this help aren't high enough in the system. But nonetheless I still enjoy.
Next, I form sincere opinions and present them in such a way that it is not a personal attack. Yes sometimes I flame but try to approach things from a positive or constructive side. No one here needs to hear me complain.
I try to make the forum as fun as possible by using humor. I am deeply sarcastic and have to be careful that these comments come accross as I intend.
I respect the forums and try to use "forum etiquette" - maybe someone should teach a class.
This is just what I do and it has been okay for me.
I know the system isn't perfect but nothing is. I've seen some good ideas for improvement. So if you have a complaint against the reputation system don't just complain. Change how you post. Offer a suggestion of how to improve if. Give us something better to replace it.
Just because a computer doesn't work all the time doesn't mean we go back to doing everything on paper.
Brandon Martus
08-04-2004, 13:50
One other thought ... I have found a hack that would let other people see your last X reputation messages on your public user profile page. They would appear just as they do in your user control panel, but wouldn't have names attached to them. (you'd still see who they were from in your profile)
I think the intent of the hack is to help others see what people are saying about your posts. Anybody have any thoughts on this.. is it worth installing? Would it help to keep reputation points on track? Too revealing? Good idea? Bad idea?
sanddrag
08-04-2004, 13:55
One other thought ... I have found a hack that would let other people see your last X reputation messages on your public user profile page. They would appear just as they do in your user control panel, but wouldn't have names attached to them. (you'd still see who they were from in your profile)
I think the intent of the hack is to help others see what people are saying about your posts. Anybody have any thoughts on this.. is it worth installing? Would it help to keep reputation points on track? Too revealing? Good idea? Bad idea? I think it would be too revelaing. But that's just me. Perhaps a pole for this question?
Astronouth7303
08-04-2004, 14:00
I can see it both ways. I think that sshowing rep comments would be good for, like, 1 or 2, maybe 3, comments visible. This way, one knows if it was really worth while, was just stupid, or was serious.
And the people with like 20 reps probably got a UFH or a WFA, or nominated someone. (check the FAQ).
Are points from high-rep people worth more than points from low-rep people?
I have 7 green, 1 red, and 1 gray in my user CP. Yet my public profile only shows 1 green. What's up? I'm not getting this.
I actually didn't look at this thread for a while because I really didn't pay attention to reputation points. I only have 1 little green dot and 3 points so I don't think that anyone can accuse me of being biased here. I would just like to ask everyone here to take a small step back and look what is being argued about.
Little green dots. I know that having a lot of green dots next to your name probably looks very cool. In my opinion though, if somebody doesn't want to read your post because you don't have enough green dots, than that person probably isn't worth talking to anyway. I know I wouldn't want to become friends with someone who liked me or what I did just because I had the latest style of clothing or something.
I think reputation points can be helpful in the long run. If you get a negative rep point, I don't think should automatically assume, "Oh, that person is just a moron, they don't know anything." Take a look back at your post, look at it from an unbiased view. Is there something in there that you could have changed? Also, don't get angry if you don't think that you are getting enough good rep points. Just remember, little green dots...
If someone wants to judge me by the appearance of my avatar (go Flyers!) or how many green dots I have or how many posts I have made, than I wouldn't really care much about what that person said to me or how much respect he treated me with, just my 2 cents...
Yan Wang
08-04-2004, 14:18
Hm.. kinda ironic that the reputation system is getting a bad rep. It's just a bunch of dots. Who cares? You know a good post or bad past when you see it. I don't need dots to tell me that. Any fairly active person who's used the forums for a month will know who posts good (I meant "well") and who... doesn't. The only problem I have with the rep system is with the immature people who abuse it.
Chris Hibner
08-04-2004, 14:29
One other thought ... I have found a hack that would let other people see your last X reputation messages on your public user profile page. They would appear just as they do in your user control panel, but wouldn't have names attached to them. (you'd still see who they were from in your profile)
I think the intent of the hack is to help others see what people are saying about your posts. Anybody have any thoughts on this.. is it worth installing? Would it help to keep reputation points on track? Too revealing? Good idea? Bad idea?
Brandon,
I think this might be a good idea, but only if the comment portion is left out (I'll explain this below.) This way, the people can still see what posts someone is getting good/bad reputation for (i.e. they can click on the post and say "hey, that was a good post", or "what was this bozo thinking giving him reputation for THAT garbage"). This will keep it in check somewhat.
I don't like the comment portion (at least not at this stage of the game), since I have put some side messages in the comments that probably wouldn't be appropriate for others to read (I know others have done the same thing). If we want to make comments readable from this point forward, that is one thing - but I wouldn't suggest making them retroactive.
I think the reputation system works pretty well, I've been around for a while and read the forums for 4 years, but never got around to actually signing up and replying till now. There are always a few problems with any system but I think this one works as good as any other. Chief Delphi has done a good job of creating a great community and a place for us all to share thoughts and ideas and also some other things that can't quite be considered a full thought. :p I'll stick with it at least through college even if I'm not on a team anymore, despite the reputation system or anything else that might have some minor flaws.
indieFan
08-04-2004, 14:43
One other thought ... I have found a hack that would let other people see your last X reputation messages on your public user profile page. They would appear just as they do in your user control panel, but wouldn't have names attached to them. (you'd still see who they were from in your profile)
I think the intent of the hack is to help others see what people are saying about your posts. Anybody have any thoughts on this.. is it worth installing? Would it help to keep reputation points on track? Too revealing? Good idea? Bad idea?
I personally like the idea of this. Since reputation points can be given for any type of post, not just technical, it would be helpful to someone like myself who only knows of the "big guns" around here (in spite of roaming the forums for several years) to determine if the person giving requested advice knows what they are talking about.
For example, I noticed one post a while back that was asking about the author being a 16 year old engineer. The response was that the person was the "engineer" for his team because he designed various parts for the robot. Since the respondent had "engineer" under "Team Role", I would have no way of determining if any future advice from this person was worth adhering to without being able to see other people's comments about previous technical advice given.
For those that have said "I've made comments that I don't want posted publicly," my response is to start using the PMs again or think about how you can constructively criticize the person.
indieFan
MissInformation
08-04-2004, 14:45
One other thought ... I have found a hack that would let other people see your last X reputation messages on your public user profile page. They would appear just as they do in your user control panel, but wouldn't have names attached to them. (you'd still see who they were from in your profile)
I think the intent of the hack is to help others see what people are saying about your posts. Anybody have any thoughts on this.. is it worth installing? Would it help to keep reputation points on track? Too revealing? Good idea? Bad idea?
Oh dear god... that would reveal just how many points I get for making fun of Dave... :eek: er... not that I get that many for that... not really...
I suppose it wouldn't be that revealing if it didn't say whom the comments were from, but if it doesn't say who made the comments, it wouldn't do anything to stop people from giving negative rep based on spite or something like that.
Brandon, I hope you don’t ever feel unappreciated when people complain about things like this on this site. What you have is good. Sure the system can be improved, almost anything can be, but I just don’t think there is any way to make everyone happy. And thank you for caring enough about everyone’s happiness to want to improve it.
Heidi
<=============>
Now going back to taking life less seriously.
Chris Hibner
08-04-2004, 14:50
For those that have said "I've made comments that I don't want posted publicly," my response is to start using the PMs again or think about how you can constructively criticize the person.
You are right. We would need to start using PMs again. But that was my point: we need to use them again. I wrote some comments knowing that they were only going to be read by the person that received them. I don't want those being opened up NOW. If Brandon decides to show the comments, I would just hope that they would only show comments from that date forward. Once that happens, I'll gladly start using PMs again, but it's not right to tell someone that something is confidential and then say, "sorry, we lied about that." (That was my point.)
indieFan
08-04-2004, 15:02
Once that happens, I'll gladly start using PMs again, but it's not right to tell someone that something is confidential and then say, "sorry, we lied about that." (That was my point.)
Point well taken on the issue of comments currently considered confidential.
And, something that I probably should have added to my previous post: Would it be possible to eventually modify the hack to only include comments from the technical forums (or whatever the CD community deems important)?
indieFan
MikeDubreuil
08-04-2004, 16:11
One other thought ... I have found a hack that would let other people see your last X reputation messages on your public user profile page.
Anybody have any thoughts on this.. is it worth installing?
I think it's a great idea, maybe it would help better the reputation system. More importantly, you could check a consistent positive poster's post to see exaclty what makes a great poster.
I also think you should also add some information on reputation to the FAQ. Questions I have:
1.) How many positive points do you need to reach a new level?
2.) Explain the quato on reputation points.
3.) Explain what a grey dot means.
.... That's all I can think of now. Thanks for the consideration Brandon.
generalbrando
08-04-2004, 16:14
It's been a while since I actually sat down and read one of these long threads. In just two days there have been 112 (now 113) posts and after reading it all I don't feel like I've wasted my time at all (for once).
Now I want to skip past flattering you all and make my few comments. I think that the people on here who feel there is something not quite right about this system have information or opinions about someone and they just aren't saying it. I would guess in most cases it's for obvious reasons. We don't like to bash people on these forums - we follow (or at least try) the concepts of gracious professionalism. With no exceptions, I believe everyone has been gracious here. Sure, there have been some posts that weren't, but please don't let that disrupt your train of thought. No one is out to get anyone (with the exception of John's friend :) ).
Popularity does play a roll in this system. Now I have many people on the edge of their seats, ready to post or send me a good/bad rep. Let me continue: I'm not trying to say that anyone on the top is there because of popularity. I don't feel that way at all. However, popularity inevitably plays *some* roll in this. I think that's just a fact of the way we are and it's nothing to get upset about, be ashamed of, or attempt to fix. Don't let that diminish you in any way. If you are feeling envy then admit that to yourself and work on dealing with it or fixing it. (And please don't assume I'm saying anyone here is envious!)
I think the system could be improved. I am all for requiring a comment. As for showing others these comments, I have a twist to add. What if I was able to go into my profile and check off the comments I want others to be able to see? Of course, your first thought is that they will just show the positive. But don't forget this is FIRST. I'm willing to bet that a great number of people would be willing to show their negative comments. This could also potentially solve the problem of repeated negative points for one post because users could look at the negative replies that have been made public for that post.
Am I making sense? I hate to bring back the fight of spelling and grammar, but I'm in a typing mood, so I will. Of course the way someone communicates with you affects your perception of them. This is true by definition because the only way to communicate with someone is through your senses (i.e. you see them, hear them, read their words, etc) (unless of course you're telepathic like me!). As for how much you take that into account in a first impression or with someone you sort of know - that's all up to you. I make the worst first impressions. They aren't always bad, but my friends tell me of their first impressions of me which are so far off from who I am that I can't stop laughing. I guess because of this I give others a lot of slack. I'm not a very formal person, but I try to show respect for those who prefer formality. I guess what I'm leading into is a general statement which is a play off of what others have said. You don't know the tone of voice someone is using and sometimes it's hard not to read into someone's words. I suggest just not taking offense in what someone says. If you disagree, you could (and should) post your opinion. That's one big reason for having these forums, right?
I should also say directly how I feel about the reputation system since I've gone this far. I don't know how many dots or points I have. I never pay attention to it. Once in a while I remember that the system exists and I go to my profile and check to see what people have said about my posts. When I get a negative reply, I PM them and ask to discuss the matter further (unless their comment was clear). Maybe they are just being sour and there's nothing to talk about. But maybe, just maybe, they will be professional about it and talk about why they gave that reply. The result is positive.
I almost want to say that in a perfect world we wouldn't be having this discussion. Then I remember this is a perfect world because it's not perfect.
Brandon Martus
08-04-2004, 17:09
Those questions (and more) will be answered in the in-progress reputation system FAQ. Should be done tonight or tomorrow, I hope.
Brandon Martus
09-04-2004, 12:24
The Reputation System FAQ (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_reputation_faq) is up now. It is still being edited & added to. PM me if you have any additions, corrections, etc.
(this thread is a great example of why I love vB3's 'Search this thread' functionality)
Bharat Nain
09-04-2004, 12:53
The Reputation System FAQ (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_reputation_faq) is up now. It is still being edited & added to. PM me if you have any additions, corrections, etc.
(this thread is a great example of why I love vB3's 'Search this thread' functionality) That is an excellent FAQ. It should clear most doubts that people have. Also, I like the fact that now if you are given a negative reputation point, for no apparent reason, it can possibly be changed. Some Justice... :)
One other thought ... I have found a hack that would let other people see your last X reputation messages...Too revealing?I like the idea, but maybe without the comment. Same reasons as Chris and something else. Some comments can be revealing about who the person is, just because of some characteristic 'style' they use when on the boards. For instance, if you had the comment with ":^)" in it, you would know (at least I would) that it was KenWittlief. :)
Bharat Nain
11-04-2004, 03:52
I like the idea of showing other people the latest reputations. Personally, I have had some harsh negative comments, which were made totally out of somebody being jealous or whatever. I just like to be a good sport and let go of such things, but I don't think everyone on this forum would have such patience(and they should not). I can see that if you do show the comments, some people will be forced to behave well so they don't get bad comments. Some people would be forced to rate well, so they don't get a bad reputation for rating out of jealousy or whatever. It is an excellent idea, and should work out well if you do put it.
Getting to the spelling, grammer issue. Yes, I personally do agree that people who intentionally or unintentionally, don't put in the effort to write the best quality they can in writing decently on the forum, should receive bad reputation. However, sometimes judging this might be hard. Some people just don't speak or write good english. A good example is my English. I agree that I don't speak or write that great English, but I do put in my best efforts in it. I feel that's what really matters. As long as a person puts in a good amount of effort, its good. Otherwise, being lazy, and doing things just for the "heck of it", it's just not right.
ChiefDelphi is a wonderful online community. Most of the people on this forum follow the idea of "Gracious Professionalism". Some don't, but those who do stand up as a good example for others to follow. Without CD, I don't think its possible, that I would have gotten as much out of FIRST as I have. Thank You CD. Special thanks to Brandon, who is always working hard to make this place better :)
KenWittlief
11-04-2004, 09:50
... For instance, if you had the comment with ":^)" in it, you would know (at least I would) that it was KenWittlief. :)
hey! I have a design patent on that emoticon - if you want to use it you have to pay me a $5 royality for each copy :^)
hey! I have a design patten on that emoticon - if you want to use it you have to pay me a $5 royality for each copy :^)
That's patent, Ken ;^P
KenWittlief
11-04-2004, 10:13
That's patent, Ken ;^P
thanks Ed, coffee is almost ready -I should know better than to post before it is
thanks Ed, coffee is almost ready -I should know better than to post before it is
Coffee? Never touch the stuff!
c-squared_2006
12-04-2004, 11:11
Coffee is always great. Hey speaking of coffee, I had some really good coffee cake yesterday, it was cherry. But getting back to topic, the last thing that I recall reading before the comment of coffee is the smilies, whatever. So ^_^... I'll stick to the basics. About the comment about proper grammar, sometimes it could be difficult for certian people to use good English. At least I try. I'll encourage everyone to be courteous to each other, that way the reputation system wouldn't be messed up.
Trashed20
12-04-2004, 16:51
Okay...
Do you really judge the worth of a person's response by the number of dots next to their name?
I don't. Not at all. I judge them based on the quality of their posts, and by the way that they "act" in these forums. Yes, I know you can't really judge a person online, but I'd like to think these forums make for a good "first impression".
Do you judge me by my dots?
I certainly hope not.
If they aren't a judge of the person thats fine. I personally think the whole dot thing is silly and doesn't help the atmosphere. I wasn't for them from the beginning. I think in general people are more pissed off and uptight about things then they were before the dots. If you don't use the dots to judge people, they are useless. I don't hold any value in them, and if you don't thats cool too. So, why are they here. Instead of PMing someone and telling them that a post was whack or that they have the facts wrong, we now get to pretty much put others down. Sorry, thats what negative rep is. Its saying, "Hey, that was dumb." People usually figure this out on their own and don't need it to be rubbed in their face. The whole thing reminds me of elementry school. Everyone used to get along, and now people play favorites. Even if you say you don't, you do. Some people get slack while others get picked on. Some of the posters here are the bullies, and some of the newer members are getting picked on. I don't think the dots give us a better environment. :( This place has changed, and it ain't for the better
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