what kind of robot will win? [Archive]

ebmonon36

08-04-2004, 02:51

I'm also going to have to go with a combination. After seeing the finals at Midwest regional and seeing how well the combination teams worked, I think this is going to be the way to go. The ball collectors have gotten a lot better over the season and so have the human players. Add this with the capability of a good hanging robot and you have a winning combination. It is difficult to top 12 balls in a goal - capped - and a robot hanging.
Eric

Jake177

08-04-2004, 11:26

I think that a small ball bot with 2 good cappers and/or hangers will be the winning alliance.

Mike M.

08-04-2004, 12:04

I personally feel that the robot that will win the nationals is one that works well with its other alliance partners. and i think that the best alliance will include combination bots that compliment each other.

Peter Matteson

08-04-2004, 12:16

I feel it will be a well balanced team and not a specific skill. Remeber every strategy has a counter strategy and therefore can be beaten by a clever team. Also winning aliance will have the most reliable robots in most respects, i.e. auton always works and parts don't bend, brake or fail.

omutton

08-04-2004, 12:31

Definately a strong auton. mode will be an asset. I think a bot with a combination hanger and capper will win it, if they are allied with a strong herder.

Joe Ross

08-04-2004, 12:37

The winning alliance will need to have completely duplicated capabilites. A strong defensive robot can shut down 1 robot, so the other robot will need to be able to pick up the slack.

I've always been a big fan of dynamic strategies. I think the championship finalist alliance from 2000 or the championship winning alliance from 2002 were the most dynamic, but I have a feeling that the winning alliances this year will take the meaning of a dynamic alliance to a new level.

Bcahn836

08-04-2004, 12:44

Just to add to these ideas, a good robot is nothing without good drivers. And a good team to fix the robot when stuff breaks. I think i should have added that somewhere.

Peter Matteson

08-04-2004, 12:46

Just to add to these ideas, a good robot is nothing without good drivers. And a good team to fix the robot when stuff breaks. I think i should have added that somewhere.

You are absolutly right a team can't win without level headed drivers who think their way out of situations and don't get flustered when something goes wrong.

fred

08-04-2004, 12:48

I think that small balls will be extremely important in the playoffs. In 2 of the 3 regionals that I went to, a small ball bot became in the champion and in the other regional, a small ball bot was a finalist. I think that in the winning alliance, first of all, there will be a robot that can play good defense and can also hang. There should also be a capper that can probably hang and a small ball bot that might be able to hang as well. Good drivers will also have a very big impact in my opinion. A good driver could be the difference between the championship and a 1st round exit.

Xufer

08-04-2004, 13:10

I Think the winning aliance will be a ball herder + capper with a secondary option to hang on the side after watching afew of the regionals i think that ball herding played a significantly bigger part. i dunno just my opinion but i noticed ball collecters with good Human players (i.e. Gale Force) did really well. with an alliance that could cap or unhang a team like that would be close to unbeatable.

Jake177

08-04-2004, 17:05

Xufer

08-04-2004, 22:59

I agree that a good drive team can make all of the difference. For example:
In 2001, we built 2 identical robots, a competition bot (The Bobcat) and a practice bot (Petunia). We went to an offseason competition and were allowed to enter both. Our primary drive team controled The Bobcat, and we let other team members take turns controling Petunia. The Bobcat won the competition, and Petunia finished in last place.
pretty intresting i know from experiance a good driver makes all the differnce thats why our team decided not to cycle operators we get a good system down and you begin to get that "empethetic" link of some sort you can just get what the others operators want done.

Jay Lundy

09-04-2004, 00:17

I think the great thing about this game is you don't know what kind of robot is going to win. An amazing herder can do just as well as a quick and powerful defensive hanger.

I'd definately say a combination would be the best, but if I had to choose one function, I'd say this game will be won by a small ball herder (which is obviously capped, hanging is a plus).

jonathan lall

09-04-2004, 00:38

Robots don't win championships. Alliances do.

Steve W

09-04-2004, 00:43

I believe that the alliance that doesn't break down before all elims are completed. I have seen great alliances lose when 1, 2 or all 3 break down during final matches. :eek:

Bcahn836

09-04-2004, 08:57

Robots don't win championships. Alliances do.

Good point.

Lisa Perez

09-04-2004, 19:22

Defense is definitely going to play a very integral part at nationals. Seeing this, I believe that any kind of robot with maneuverable, stable, and speedy chassis will win. Even though other teams may have plenty of capabilities, a robot with a chassis that embodies all the above qualities will be able to stop attempts at points.

JakeGallagher

09-04-2004, 20:25

I think a robot that can defend well will be on the winning alliance.

Billfred

09-04-2004, 21:39

It's the championship. You've gotta come with AT LEAST herding and capping OR hanging. Get all three, and it'll be hot.

But it's also going to be the slickest driving. I see lots of robots running D to keep other teams away from 2X balls and the bar. Perhaps even some ball stealing.

Steve Howland

10-04-2004, 14:19

It's the championship. You've gotta come with AT LEAST herding and capping OR hanging. Get all three, and it'll be hot.

Paragon's bot tried to do all three at the NJ regional, and we never could complete everything successfully. We were seeded very low at the end of the qualifications, but we did better once we gave up on hanging.

We collect around 6 small balls and feed them quickly to our human players, which are very good. We always are able to cap with just a little time left and the proceeded to block other teams from capping/hanging.

We won the UTC regional by concentrating on ball collecting while our alliance partners went for the hang. (Thanks 716 and 230!) We worked well together and hope to be with 716 (in our division) in Atlanta.

-Diobsidian

Bcahn836

10-04-2004, 14:23

Just focus on what your robot and drivers do best. We uncap the small goal, hold on to the 2X ball and herd, our HP fills that small goal with the three 5pt balls and our alliances three 5pt balls plus what we collect and then cap it. At the same time our alliance does what ever they do best.

It may not be the best strategy but this is what we came up with in the design process and we stick to it.

Specialagentjim

11-04-2004, 00:25

Personally, I think it will be a combination of a Collector robot and a Capper/hanger.

I'm envisioning a team that:
Robot A- Collects and distributes balls between human players on alliance and fills stationary goal
Robot B- Caps goal
Robot A- Finshes dropping off balls for alliance HPs to fill stationary goal
Robot A- Moves to Hang if the ability is present / Defend against hangers
Robot B- Hangs

Something like that.

On the defensive note: We've played some great D when our robot has had things break. I find its a good strategy when you've got a good alliance partner and your going against a team that has one good robot and one not-so-good robot. You defend against the good one, then it becomes your alliance partner vs. theirs. Not always the best situation in the world for all matches, but when that match comes around where that works, it sure does work!

George A.

11-04-2004, 01:33

The winning alliance will be comprised of these three robots:

Robot A: Reliable/solid hanger. Sole purpose is to get on the bar and get 50 pts.

Robot B: Reliable/solid hanger. Sole purpose is to get on the bar and get 50 pts.

Robot C: Capper/ Hanger. This robot will get one (or two) 2x balls, and herd small balls to their HP. Then when goal (or goals) are close to being full they cap and then make a run for the bar.

This scenario seems to be perfect because every round your alliance should have one robot on the bar for 50 pts, and another robot being able to take care of the balls/goals. Get 2 bots on bar+ 10 balls in goal (6 from HP and 4? from herding)+2x ball on goal=200 pts. Pretty hard to be beaten.

Joe Ross

11-04-2004, 01:49

The winning alliance will be comprised of these three robots:

Robot A: Reliable/solid hanger. Sole purpose is to get on the bar and get 50 pts.

Robot B: Reliable/solid hanger. Sole purpose is to get on the bar and get 50 pts.

Robot C: Capper/ Hanger. This robot will get one (or two) 2x balls, and herd small balls to their HP. Then when goal (or goals) are close to being full they cap and then make a run for the bar.

Here is how you beat this alliance. Have a robot with a strong and fast drive train that can disrupt Robot C. If robot C can't get the balls to the player station or get to either goal to cap, they can't score very many points. Meanwhile, while Robot A is hanging, the second robot scores points unimpeded. Even if this second robot isn't as good as robot C, they can probably score more points unimpeded then Robot C can impeded. Then they go hang at the end of the match, while the first robot continues to harass robot C.

George A.

11-04-2004, 02:11

I can see where your coming from Joe, but the way i see it is, if the capper is good enough to be in the finals or what have you, they should be able to put up with some badgering from the other team. Secondly even if their herding/capping strategy doesn't work out, they can always hang themselves, giving the allaince a max of 130 pts...and by my calculations one would need 13 small balls + the 2x ball in their goal to tie, granted this is possible, but it is dificult with other robots playing defense.

MikeDubreuil

11-04-2004, 02:17

My bet would be on a team made of someone like 90 and 175.

90 is able to dominate the bar. Hanging is extremely important. If you don't have at least 1 robot hanging, you don't have a prayer at winning. 90 is able to grab the bar, and keep others from not hanging. With 1 robot hanging and blocking 2 opponents from hanging, the value of that is 150 points.

175- You have to be able to handle the small balls. They have an elegent system to reliably grab small balls and deliver them to the player station. They also have the ablily to grab a large ball and cap a goal.

A small ball hearder and a dominating bar hanger will bring home the trophey.

Specialagentjim

11-04-2004, 02:30

I didn't clarify this earlier, so I'll do it now.

I think the winning alliacne will be

Robot A: Solid Capper and Hanger

Robot B: Solid Capper and Hanger

Robot C: Collector

Robots A and B will switch off with C being in every match. C will complete is blockable tasks in autonmous, thus negating most blocks unless a team wants to get really ambitious in auton coding.

Robots A and B will be similar, but will be put in to match up against the oppononet bots.

Some team numbers I think would make an excellent alliance: 27(A), 93(C), 108(B)

I've heard many a laugh about 108 this year, but we've had our hard times and their behind us now. Atlanta's a whole new competition, and as such your going to see a whole new 108. Masters of the 2x and hanger extrodianare, at your service ;)

Zzyzx

11-04-2004, 03:35

Robot A: Solid Capper and Hanger

Robot B: Solid Capper and Hanger

Robot C: Collector

This is about the winning combonation that our alliance had in the Pacific Northwest Regionals, only our team was a Capper/Collector and the other two teams were Designated Hangers. We rotated the Hangers depending on the opposing allience and we made sure that the hangers hung as soon as possible. While people were worring about the top, we would get 5-12 small balls in the large goal and cap it, giving us around 50-120 points just from the small balls!

t0ny127

11-04-2004, 08:46

Well, as good as a combination robot may seem, think of it this way. You can either have a combination robot, which is like a Jack of all trades master of nothing (not saying all combo robots aren't great), or have a robot designated to 1 or 2 main tasks, and it could focus all of its efforts on those tasks. I would say a good alliance would be composed of the following: 2 teams that can hang and cap very efficiently, and 1 team that is an efficient ball herder. Even if 2 big ball teams are playin a match, most robots can still push a couple balls into the corrals...and with the 100 points from the 2 hangin robots, theres a better chance of winning the match. Same deal with when a big ball team is playing with a ball herder...human players shoot in all the balls they can, and the big ball hangin team goes up to hang.

kristen

11-04-2004, 11:45

I think that the winning ALLIANCE will have an elite hanger, elite herder, and a robot that rocks at doing everything.

ahecht

11-04-2004, 13:03

From watching the regionals, the winning alliance will be the one that can have two hanging robots at the end of every match. I don't care what kind they are, if they can cap, herd, collect, etc. If they can get that 100 points (and perhaps block the opponent from hanging) they have a great chance.

Yan Wang

11-04-2004, 13:17

I think that the winning ALLIANCE will have an elite hanger, elite herder, and a robot that rocks at doing everything.

Of the teams at Championships, that sounds like 48 (har har har, Delphi "Elite"), 33, and 254. If only those teams were in one division. Though it'd be more interesting watching 4 awesome teams go against each other rather than partnered up.

Jay Lundy

11-04-2004, 13:25

I predict that hanging won't be nearly as valuable as it was at regionals. Now that teams are getting large small ball scores, the 2x balls are much more valuable. Let's put it this way.

Alliance A has 1 robot hanging and a capped goal with 11 balls in it.
Alliance B has 1 robot hanging, a goal with 17 balls in it (think 45 or 33), and a robot with a 2x ball picked up.
There are 20 seconds left.

If you are the alliance A robot that is not hanging, do you:
a) Go to hang, or
b) Defend the cap

Obviously you defend the cap. It also would have been smarter for the other robot on alliance B to decap allaince A rather than hanging.

I may be completely wrong, but a lot can happen on the field when even the fastest hanging robots stop playing defense and go to hang.

Bcahn836

11-04-2004, 13:30

cap

T967

11-04-2004, 14:45

I agree with whoever said, great hanger, great collecter, great at everything alliance combo. However someone has to play D-fence. Running screens, anoying oppenents, that kind of thing.

Ein

11-04-2004, 15:29

Combination robots seem to get swamped in my experience. It's great for a robot to do everything, but when you have an alliance with two highly specialized robots, one hanger/bar defender and one ball gatherer/capper, they're invincible. Each dominated their respective specialties because they're not trying to do anything else. Also, looking at average points scored (about 110 or so on the high end, 50 on the low) two great hangers could possibily win it as could two really good ball gatherers/cappers.

Joe Matt

11-04-2004, 17:47

Well, as someone in their 3rd year of FIRST, I can say that it's a wild guess. The varables are high in any game, let alone this one. If I had to choose, I would say combination herder, small goal capper, and hanger.

Bcahn836

11-04-2004, 17:51

Whatever robot wins you can guarantee that the final matches will be awesome. And will most likely have 4 robots hanging, and stationary goals filled possible one being capped.

Specialagentjim

11-04-2004, 18:48

Now, I could be wrong, but coming from a driver's perspective:

Combination robots are not really effective during matches unless they can do at least one task very well. You simply don't have time in the match to Herd a bunch of balls, then go cap it, then herd some more, then cap the other goal, then go and hang, and put some Defense in there while your at it.

Our team is breaking down the game into two periods. First minute of game play is either defense or Capping (It is also predetermined which before the match starts) and then the last minute - 45 seconds is hang. If you try and do everything, you'll end up doing all the tasks halfway. Halfway on a hang is zero points and halfway on a cap is zero points.

At UCF we tried to do everything a few matches, defense, capping, herding, hanging. We sucked it and the strategy's been revised. Stick to what you know, and do it every time.

RoteAugen

11-04-2004, 18:51

unfortunately, i can only comment on what i know, and i have not seen any other regionals than BAE, but i can tell you what i saw there:

winning alliance
501- good hanger, cap/uncap, minimal ball herding, auton=push goal
69- awesome hanger, cap/uncap, auton=?
aces- (sorry, i forgot :confused:..anyone from aces feel free to fill this in)

runner-up alliance
138- good hanger, cap/uncap (unused ironically), decent ball herding, auton=5sec knockoff of bonus ball (2 stage, gyro for angle of attack, then IR to find ball)
40- awesome hanger, decent ball herding, uncap, auton=?
175- no hang, ball collector, cap/uncap 2x, auton= line follower: 13sec

most of the quarter/semi/finalists had many hangers on the alliances, and fewer ball collectors. those who are saying that hanging is important are right, however it is important only when coupled with another robot that equalizes the balance. in the finals I believe ALL possible strategies are going to be critical as odd as that sounds, and the teams that omit one are going to sink VERY fast.

also, I was disappointed at the lack of autonomous mode functionality this year. though the balls end up on the floor anyways, I believe it is important to control your environment quickly. if you can nail the auton, you have 30 seconds more than you normally would in order to collect and score balls, and that is a substantial advantage if paired against a team that has to wait for the 45 second limit to pass.

/suddenly realizes length of post, runs :ahh:

Mike Ciance

11-04-2004, 19:28

George A.

11-04-2004, 23:34

i think a combination robot is benificial to have, but what it comes down to is durability, strangth, and quality. last year our robot was only really good at knocking down the wall, not stacking. however, our strong base and drive train led us all the way to the championship semis. all we can do good this year is go up on the bar, but our good base and drive train still help us a lot. our robot isn't the best or most versitile one out there, but its still very good because of the high quality base.

basically i am saying that the best design should not be judged by what the robot does, but by how good and reliably it does what it does.

Amen to that. In the previous years, my team has tried to do most everything, and at best managed to to them mediocerly (???, don't even know if thats a word), anyway this year we tried the approach of just building a strong drive train that can play defense, and a bot that can hang well. So far it has worked to our advantage, and I think that we will focus on this strategy for years to come.

10intheCrunch

12-04-2004, 00:02

Of the teams at Championships, that sounds like 48 (har har har, Delphi "Elite"), 33, and 254. If only those teams were in one division. Though it'd be more interesting watching 4 awesome teams go against each other rather than partnered up.

Thanks for the compliment, but don't forget about Team 60 =). I think that herding isn't as important if you can't cap, though, which is where 33 takes a few knocks. Team 45 is the one that really frightens me...they got 170 points on balls in one match at Midwest! That's...just...scary. Proof positive that a team comprised solely of hangers is not going to carry the competition.