494........

[Whalley]

did anyone else have a problem with 494's steel hook of doom, i mean goal grabber? all i know is that they had recieved a warning prior to our match with them to do somthing about the hook, I don't know if they did. All I do know is that during our first match they managed to pull on some wires or somthing in our bot and cause it to start smoking and for the battery to catch on fire so the leads had to be cut. Not only that but in the final match of that series, they again attacked with the "goal grabber" and completely destroyed a fan, some wiring, and moved the globe motor that powered our hook out of position. For this they were almost DQed, by a vote of 4 to 3 they stayed. Does anyone else think this unfair? I personally think that they should have been out of the competition because that is definately not gracious professionalism.
:mad:

[Stephen Kowski]

Frankly, you weren't the only one that observed this aggressive behavior from 494. I know there were people from several different teams that didn't like their actions and said they were using their robot like it was a "Battlebot".

I don't think 71 was 100% thrilled with some of the things they did either...


Off the field they were extremely helpful to my and many other teams so I cannot bad mouth them too much.

[Rick]

I agree. I can understand defense, but maybe pushing with the opposite end of the bot was in order. I also heard that the goal grabber was tied back for finals, but a little too late for some teams. Off the field and in the pits, 494 was one of the best teams out there. They had a dynometer for teams to test speed and torque. One force sensor was broken but it was cool to see. Also helping 1396 build a bot from scratch was amazing! I was suprised to see a strong competitor come from 10 hours of hard work! Great job and congrats on the win.

[Eric Yahrmatter]

Yeah, there is really no need for having 6 motors powering their drivetrain. Plus you can get the same amount of power from one of our transmissions. I really do believe that FIRST needs to crack down on agressive behavior.

[Koko Ed]

But that is the way this year's contest was played. 494 wasn't the only team knocking people flat. When people found out we had a flaw in our design they spent the rest of Friday waiting at the top of the platform and knocking us flat when we finally showed up. Alot of robots fell victim to that.
Singling out one team, especially after having such a good showing at the championship tastes of sour grapes.
Just let it slide.

[Rob]

Well here we go...

I want to start by saying that this is not a thread to flame or bad mouth anyone. If you want to post something like that, please use the personal messaging system.

It does sting to know that our robot was disabled for much of the semi-finals because it was ripped apart by the goal grabber of 494. We experienced their defense in both the first and third matches. In both they rendered our machine ineffective because of excessive damage. I truly feel like we let our great alliance partners down, especially in the last match. I also feel that if FIRST wanted to discourage this behavior, they would have issued a disqualification.

While talking with members of the 494 drive team after the match, a mentor told me that we should have built a more robust machine, with more protection for our electronics. He was right. Given the way that the game has evolved, teams need to be very aware of the need for things like protective shielding and enclosed frames.

I know people say many things because of the frustration involved with losing in this way. I hope I make it clear, as have others in this thread, that 494 did many wonderful things as a team. The strategy they chose to employ in the elimination rounds did leave many teams with a bad taste in their mouths. Also remember that they helped rebuils a rookie team who had their machine shipped to another location. They also provided the dynamometer and countless other services to teams. There is a huge difference between the team 494 that people saw in the pits and stands and the team 494 that people saw on the field.

Having been a member of a team that has had its share of controversial moments, I can say that we all need to look at the complete team, not just the results of their agressive play. I hope that this thread can remain a constructive discussion that everyone in the FIRST community can learn from.

Rob

[Will Hanashiro]

if you were to watch the animation that FIRST put together describing the game... a line that is emphasized is "teams will need to build robust robots".... robust being the key word. keeping this in mind, i feel that it was the right decision by the refs not to DQ 494. they had a great robot and a well deserved win.

[D.J. Fluck]

Yeah, there is really no need for having 6 motors powering their drivetrain. Plus you can get the same amount of power from one of our transmissions. I really do believe that FIRST needs to crack down on agressive behavior.


I don't agree with some of 494's agressive actions, but first off, what is wrong with a 6 motor drive train? Ive seen 6, 7, and even 8 (I think) motor drive trains in the past..

The Martains did what they did and they did it well, if the referees felt that they crossed the line too much, they would have been DQ'd....I know they were warned about it, but they didnt. Aidan Browne, the head referee on Archimedes and Benji (sp?) the head ref on Einstein have been doing this for a long time, and they know what they are doing...if they would have felt differently, something WOULD have been done...these guys are the best for a reason....

If FIRST were to make a ruling, what would they rule? They followed all the pinning procedure properly as far as I could tell, they were rough, but they did say in the intro animation: Robots should be able to handle impact... or something to that extent..again, I have to say I didnt like their way they played, we played tough and so did they, and they just happened to get on top...what else can you do?

Congratulations to 494 on their championship and I hope to see you guys at IRI.


-D.J.

[suneel112]

Yeah, there has to be a CLEAR DIVISION between "defense" and "battle bots". In the final match of Curie, 461 had the big 2x ball and was getting ready to cap. It was already fighting [a four digit team = team A] for a long time. then [Team A] backs up, and rams full speed into our robot not once, but THREE TIMES, the third time being so hard a ram (and with a fairly pointed edge) that the circuit breaker which FIRST gave us BROKE DOWN. It wasn't just that one or some of the circuit breakers in the motors broke down. Even the LED lights shut off. Our robot was screwed majorly, and we were already down 0-1, so we became divisional finalists instead of einstein advancers. The big ball, which we had dropped the second time we got rammed, popped. At first I though it was that the judges disabled us for that 2x ball popping, but then I found out it was really that they had killed us (w/ the breaker).

You can see I'm full of contempt :mad:


I also heard that the EXACT same thing happened to the Technokats.

Whatever they think they did, it was NOT defense and was DEFINITELY NOT gracious professionalism.

Don't get me wrong. I am NOT mad at the whole alliance. Buzz (175) was very graciously professional, and had an excellent robot. I am just mad at [Team A].

And yeah, I agree, the Martians were probably crossing the line between strategic defense and "battle bots", but I was not on the same field as they were.

I will probably start my own thread on this very subject. Reply away!

[Rick]

Lets calm down and stick to the topic at hand. This is not 1388 bashing and/or ref bashing. This is a concern about 494's aggressive behavior. In your case I would talk to 1388 about the match and then think before you post.

[hansTP2S]

does anyone have pictures of said arm of doom?

yes and responsing to the last post i believe 461's circut breakers switch was only partially on or something to that extent.

[suneel112]

Yeah I agree I was too angry when I posted it. I had high hopes.

Still, the bottom line is that it isn't cool to shut somebody's robot off/get it very close to that point. With 6 motors, I have no problem. Speed (especially in autonomous) is an important thing, and that it can (and should) be used to tip the 10 point ball. However, speed (like power or a super powerful arm) can be used for both good and bad purposes. I mentioned the good purpose above, and I also mentioned the bad purpose of trying to inflict damage on another robot. It is against the rules to willingly damage someone's robot. We could have done the same. 461 could have taken its arm and rammed a team trying to hang, but it simply wasn't fair, so we didn't do it.

To make a long sentence short, it simply isn't cool, fair, or graciously professional to do that kind of aggressive behavior, and it should be banned.

[abeD]

You all have just cause in being mad that your robot was damaged or turned off...but this happens to everyone. We are all at work in the pits becuase all our robots get bashed and broken due to the harshness of this year's competition. Singling out 494 as intentionally damaging teams is not really true, since all their doing is playing defense, and doing that well! Many teams this year were playing defense and these things just happen. From what i saw, in that final match they played an amazing defensive strategy not allowing their opponents (469 i think) to cap.

[Greg McCoy]

I doubt that 494 had any intentional interest in damaging your robot. They played defense and played it well repeatedly, and their actions, while frustrating to those of us with offensive robots ;) worked for them. This competition demands robust, powerful machines, and that's something you should shoot for in the design of your robot.

I also heard that the EXACT same thing happened to the Technokats.

In the Archimedes finals (3rd match), 494 came through the back side of the stationary goal and used their arm to prevent our team from capping the stationary goal, which would have eliminated them and put us on Einstein. Being the TechnoKats arm operator, I must say that there was no way that I could get the ball in the goal. That's a heck of a machine, and they sucessfully defended our cap. I'm not aware of this breaking any rules. As far as other matches, many teams rammed other robots repeatedly, this isn't just something that 494 did.

Kudos to 494 for a tough bot, and congrats to the whole alliance for the Championship.

[Guyute]

deeply apologize to my team mates post about this situation with 1388...first off i would like to say that 1388 played awesome defense against us you guys obviously deserved to go on!! secondly the whole situation was further explained to me by my friend/driver he told me that they were being rushed to put the robot back on the field after the 1st tie and i guess somehow the breaker wasn't entirely pushed back in when they were doing an electronics check (not to blame our electronics guy). so i guess during the match when 1388 was playing outstanding defense on us it popped out. so that’s the full story. thirdly i am sorry that all of this is off topic.

[Jason Kixmiller]

Speaking from a student driver's point of view, I think that it is impossible to have any sort of ruling or standard to dictate the difference between an aggressively defensive strategy or a disregard for gracious professionalism. Robustness has long been a standard of FIRST design for many teams, and if a team is willing to take a risk with the placement of critical components of their machine, the team should be willing to accept the consequences of having those components damaged. I am in no way condoning malicious intentions, but intentions are nearly impossible to define. Contact is a part of the game as are aggressive defensive tactics.

[LoganB]

I doubt that 494 had any intentional interest in damaging your robot. They played defense and played it well repeatedly, and their actions, while frustrating to those of us with offensive robots ;) worked for them. This competition demands robust, powerful machines, and that's something you should shoot for in the design of your robot.



In the Archimedes finals (3rd match), 494 came through the back side of the stationary goal and used their arm to prevent our team from capping the stationary goal, which would have eliminated them and put us on Einstein. Being the TechnoKats arm operator, I must say that there was no way that I could get the ball in the goal. That's a heck of a machine, and they sucessfully defended our cap. I'm not aware of this breaking any rules. As far as other matches, many teams rammed other robots repeatedly, this isn't just something that 494 did.

Kudos to 494 for a tough bot, and congrats to the whole alliance for the Championship.

I agree 494 played great defense and it’s not fair to say oh they won so they played rough. We were hit like no tomorrow trying to hang and some robots were trying to take hooks off the bar. So I stand behind 494 and there awesome drive train and driver and awesome game play. Also 71 and 494 are awesome teams to work with and even better to win the championship with. :D Also 45 love the bot and great Archimedes final showing.

[Ryan Dognaux]

I don't care what anyone else says - 494 had a great robot, and there's no denying it. They play rough, yes I will agree with that, but they play to win. Things like this happen whether we want them to or not (i.e. IRI Finals Match - 2002) It's just the way it is. We can sit here and debate about 494's robot, or we can remember how they've played and prepare for next year.

Again, Congrats to 494.

[Heretic121]

hello... im not going to get deep into this except, i do have the match footage of where they rode up into our robot and cut our wires with thier "goal grabber" and the before (before quaterfinals started) and after (when we got back to the pits)... i am going to be posting of all them once i get them uploaded (like in 2-3 days)

[Greg McCoy]

What are you trying to accomplish?

If FIRST were to make a ruling, what would they rule? They followed all the pinning procedure properly as far as I could tell, they were rough, but they did say in the intro animation: Robots should be able to handle impact... or something to that extent..

I again seriously doubt that anyone was trying to intentionally cut your wires...we got some of our arm wires hooked and had to do some careful driving to get them out of another robot's arm in one match...had we broken anything, it would have been our fault. Unless they have a robot feature/driving style that clearly is intended for the destruction of the robots, I don't see what FIRST can do. In my opinion, the refs did a good job, there are a lot of things to watch for in these matches.

[austind27]

This year 494 built an incredible robot. Their robot played the game with the best of them. They drive to win and deserve to win. Every one of their robots is fast, strong and robust. If everyones robot was built as well as theirs this thread wouldn't exist. 494 is one of the best teams in FIRST history. They may drive agressive but they also are one of the most professional teams in FIRST as well. Team 27 looks forward to competing with you guys at IRI, The Kettering Kickoff and Ford Sweet Repeat this summer. Congradulations on your National Championship win and all you other awards!!

[Combat Chuck]

First off, I want to thank 494 for helping us with our robot at the Peachtree Regional. They are one of the nicest teams I've ever met. I sat with them on saturday during the Archimedes eliminations. They were very friendly and answered my questions. They even were GP when some calls didn't go their way, such as when they were ruled not hanging during the first match against 237. I was amazed at their alliance and strategy, where 71 would herd, cap, and hang, while 494 would herd for a second, defend the other teams, and then perhaps hang. I think that what 494 did was perfectly fine. Many a time they'd zoom from chute to chute to prevent balls from being dropped off. I'm sure 494 feels bad about any undue damage occured, but I find no fault with their actions.

[Ben Lauer]

I realise that some of the driving practices of 494 were not GP. I was the real time scorer for all matches on Archimedies. I saw every one of those matches. I know that there opponents didn't like there behavior, but if they are not causing damage, then there only flaw is not being GP. I talked with two of the refs later and they agree with me on this point.

They did mention the 494 had been warned about this defensive practice, and during the final rounds team 494 did try to play a safer defensive stragety, and played clean matches from there on out.

[Terminator6]

I have to add here that part of GP is not second guessing the refs...these refs put so much time into what they do and know the rules....they want the game to be played with the rules enforced....but not scrutinized over....if you have a concern about the way the refs were calling....then take that up with the refs about the way they define the rules....dont single out a team and gripe about their style of play...GP is the way people act plus how you respond....and quite frankly some of these responses insult me...."hook of death" is something one child says to another back when we were all in elementary school

[Rob27]

The Martians are the most agressive team I know. This thread proves that sometimes they go a little overboard, but THEY ARE NOT OUT TO DESTROY YOUR ROBOT! 494 builds very robust robots, and if you don't do the same, it's not 494's fault. Their robots are often seen on Einestien for a reason, and I'm sure they'll be there next year, too.

Congratulations to 494 on the Chapmpionship and the SPORTSMANSHIP Award. We haven't played with or against you this year, so I look forward to the off-season events.

[Joe Menassa]

a little rough housing is ok. sometimes things break, wires get cut, and people get angry. this is something we have learned to deal with year after year. in fact, many of us are guilty of it.

is it bad? not necessarily. defense is defense and most of us in the heat of the moment will do everything that is in our power to win. i know 494 didnt purposely design their robot to cause damage. our robot suffered damage simply because it isnt completly shielded. they just happen to hit us in our weakest point. it was an unfortunate mistake, im sure if anyone for 494 responds they will admit they were just trying to push and shove not disable our robot.

there is a limit to the rough housing and it is tough to judge. i hope that teams realize that pushing a shoving is fine just be careful with arms and goal grabbers and what not, the things that can penatrate other robots are what we all have to look out for.

[Jay TenBrink]

As the engineering coach for team 494, I will say this:

During the play-offs we received a warning from the refs for aggressive play. I was also informed by a young man from one of our opponents' teams what we had done to their robot with our goal hook. I appologized to him and then we tied the hook back out of the way. After the next match, we removed it from the robot.

I take personal responsibility for putting a robot out onto the field with a device such as this. It was a mistake, I am sorry, I was wrong.

Never again will we put a robot on the field with a device that can act like a harpoon, spear, etc.

Sincerely,

Jay TenBrink
Engineering Coach
team 494

[Rick]

That was very nice of you to apoligize and it seems like for the most part everyone is calm and understands what happened. Those Archimedes finals were the best out of any division I think. Its good to know that we can all have no hard feelings and go on to compete again next year.

(PS. Maybe even sooner if some of 121 makes it to IRI this year ;).)

[suneel112]

Thank you Mr. TenBrink,

That's what FIRST is all about, admitting any possible mistakes and fixing them, while being graciously professional. Kudos to you.

As for ME, I appologize for my earlier angry rant over 1388. Its the best we've ever done as a team EVER. I hope you guys forgive me, because even though that wouln't have "normally" happened, I still shouldn't post stuff demeaning to another team.

Sorry.

[ellenchisa]

During the matches, everything can get pretty confused. When you're driving it is hard to draw a line between trying to win by playing good defense, and taking it a little too far. The line itself would be blurry, if you did.

I know everyone noticed the martians (awesome) defense because I got about 4 class from Jeff Waegelin telling me to watch out for their defense before Einstein.
"They are going to play defense on you...the WHOLE MATCH."
"Okay, I'll make sure to tell everyone about that. Bye"
*cell phone rings*
"NO, REALLY ELLEN. THEY ARE GOING TO PLAY DEFENSE ON YOU!"
And that happened a few seperate times...with lots of people from 201 screaming the same thing in the background.

Even after being fairly warned about their defensive ability, I didn't think it would be *that* strong. Anyway... I think defense is simply another strategy. As long as you aren't intentionally damaging someone it's okay. In my opinion... the martians great defense was an integral part of their championship. I think they were within the limits of gracious professionalism. (Of course, I am speaking from the matches we played... I didn't see the finals in archimedes.)

Ellen

[khwoodside]

I don't care what anyone else says - 494 had a great robot, and there's no denying it. They play rough, yes I will agree with that, but they play to win. Things like this happen whether we want them to or not (i.e. IRI Finals Match - 2002) It's just the way it is. We can sit here and debate about 494's robot, or we can remember how they've played and prepare for next year.

Again, Congrats to 494.

Yes, congrats to 494, and it was great having a pit right next to yours. I must say that i talked to their mentors and found that their strategy was to keep robots from climbing the platform to hang. Our robot hung from the floor, and in one of our matches, we were paired against 494 on the archimedes field. Unfortunately, 494 didnt realize that our robot had the capability to hang from the floor and drove right on to our electronics box. This I can understand being an accident. But was there really cause for them to spin their wheels on top of our electronics box for the rest of the match? We were lucky to have the forethought of a plexi-encased electronics box and that was the only damage (other than the tire marks). 494 didnt appologize to me directly, but i did see one of their mentors go talk to our mentors. Later I found he only explained what happened from their point of view with no apology. No one from their drive team talked to me or our other driver. No one from their team talked to us for the rest of the competition. I know it left a bitter taste in all of our mouths, and finally someone hung our state flag between our pits. I thought that was one of the saddest things to see. I have heard that 494 was very gracious to other teams and for that I applaud them. It is hard to be everyones friend and sometimes ya just cant. Thank you everyone for making nationals a challenging competition!
Katie ~ Arm operator for team 476

[MrToast]

Yes, thank you for the apology. As the 121 pit crew captain, your apology is accepted.

However, I am still going to question some judgement on your (494s) part for allowing a part that is sharp enough to slice through a battery cable onto your robot. No hook or any part needs or should be that sharp. :ahh: For one thing, it is a potential Big Ball Popper, which isn't a good thing, and also incidents like this may happen.

I must say that we are also to blame for designing a robot where the battery cable could be in such a spot for this to happen.

No hard feelings (well, very few ;). We still would've liked to have won :D )

Portsmouth Dave
121 Co-captain

[Ben Lauer]

I understand that people get angry when they are beat, but can we stop blaming, and just congraulate the winners. They did what they thought was nessessary at that point to win the match. They (494) removed the hook after the realized that it caused serious damage.

During our (1018) autonomous mode, we would go out until we hit something (supposed to be the mobile goal), and latch on. Most of the time we latched the goal, sometimes it was the platform, sometimes other robots. After this happened, we unlatched and continued with the match. We may have cause damage, but it was unintentional. Maybe this is what happened. I was there for that match, but didn't see it clearly. Can we stop assuming that 494 did all this alleged distruction on purpose and just take note of the things that can happen in the heat of a match and design against it next year? Take this as a learning experience, and be a better team through it.

[Matt Goulart]

As a member of the 121 pit crew I would also like to thank 494 for the apology. I would just like to point out that our battery cable was not cut by 494’s goal hook. One of the refs on the field cut the battery cables after the electrical tape on the battery started to smoke. This was from a short caused by exposed electrical wires. The wires where damaged by our own hook when we tried to put it up to hang. (Our hook was damaged in a previous match). Sorry for the confusion.

[omutton]

I think that 494 has an amzing robot. They played awesome defence and did what they had to do to win. We can say what we want and be angry at their agressiveness, but their alliance still beat us all, whether they were too agressive or not.

[kacz100]

I wasn't at the Nationals but i was at the Peachtree regional with 494. Everyone keeps talking about the "spear..blah blah blah" being too sharp. If it was too sharp don't you think that they might have been caught during inspection? Look at their robot, it is completely protected from any object getting to any vital area. They protected themselves can you protect your robot?

my 2 cents

[aaronbr28040]

I would like to say that we really cant have hard feelings about damaged parts on robots. I know some teams didnt like the idea that our robot (team 900) was playing a defensive game. This was the only game that we could play at that point though due to mechanisms failing. We flipped a few robots (on accident, most had wheels that just ran right up our frame, some even during autonomous mode when our robot was sitting still........not to mention we got flipped a total of 2 times during regionals and nationals) but did not try to damage them. Although we caused little or no damage the judges did ask our driver to calm it down some since he was being so aggressive. 494 showed a lot of GP to my team, from letting us use the dyno, to printing our materials list when we couldnt get to a printer. I think that many times in FIRST we let what could be good partnerships with teams drift away just for simple thinks such as a broken part. Really, the inspector should have made the call of it being unsafe/harmful. If it passed by the inspector without trouble at regionals and nationals then it is probably not totally their fault. I know that the inspectors did not allow any sharp edges at all or anything that could be remotely harmful. My team had a robot that was very unprotected on the inside but we suffered little damage. If a robot would have damaged our robot chances are I would have been the one fixing it and I would have no hard feelings against the other team. Accidents happen on the field, and many times from the drivers position on the field they can not see the damage they are doing when they are on the top of another robot. I would just hate to see teams that could learn from each other turned away simply over a few damaged pieces. Hard feelings against another team will just cause more problems. Since the inspectors let it pass I think it is really un-GP to second guess them since they are the officials. Plus I dont think 494 would intentionally harm another robot. Although damage may occur at times in a FIRST competition it doesnt happen often and is usually caused by accidents. An apology is nice when it happens but I dont really expect teams to run up everytime there is an accident and apologize. It is not always only their fault. IMHO 494 went out of their way for other teams by tying it back All I have left to say is congrats to 71, 494, and 435.
-Aaron

[Gressa]

When I judge a robot, the single most important factor to me is whether or not the robot is rigid. The Martians robot is one of the most rigid robots I have ever seen, and it therefore one of the best.

[Frank L.]

On behalf of Team 343, I would like to express our congrats to 71, 494, and 435 on winning the Championship. While we were not in their division this year, we have over the past two years had the opportunity to play both against and with 494 many times. In fact, we had the pleasure of selecting them as an alliance partner in the 2003 Championship. I have gotton to know these guys pretty well, and without question I can't think of another team that I would rather partner with, or play against. Each and every time we have something to remember...in the 2003 Peachtree finals, IRI, 2003 Championship and many matches in between. Congrats guys...can't wait till next year...we are going to get you to the Palmetto Regional. Hey, tell the guys that I finally figured out the cork thing.

[Eric Bareiss]

I'm sure that there some legitimacy to the goal grabber being sharp but to me defense is defense. I distinctly remember an intentional tipping call against 121 in the nats playoffs 2003. I didn't hear an apology for that.

If it was my team, I would not have aplogized.

[Kyle Fenton]

While I didn't like 494 destroying my team's front end, there is nothing anybody could do to it. We didn't protect it that much because we thought this years game would be primarily offensive.

However this sets a dangerous statement to future FIRST games. Basically teams will noticed that building a simple strong machine will win the game because they can disable any robot trying to score points. I didn't particularly liked last years game because it turned mostly into a defensive game. Personally I like an offensive game better which leads to a high scoring game.

Defense is still a crucial part of strategy though, and should be used. However it shouldn't be a primary feature.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

If it was too sharp don't you think that they might have been caught during inspection?

my 2 cents

I inspected at GLR, MMR and nationals. When inspectors look for sharp edges on robots, we are more concerned about the potential damage to humans than to robots. The pits can get very crowded and the hike to and from the playing fields can be a dangerous one for competitiors passing each other in the darkened spaces leading to the fields. If a sharp edge is only revealed after the robot expands during play, that is not likely to raise any concern during inspection. Exposed sprokets and chains on arms pose a serious threat to any robot appendage that might end up near the sprocket but it does not violate a rule or pose personal hazard.
As to damage internal to a robot frame, inspectors are looking for loose wires and other parts that may become an entangelment or impede play. Remember that inspection is partly to keep everyone honest to robot rules and partly to insure that teams can play a two minute match. Although a team could have done a great job tywrapping everything into place and burying electrical deep within a robot frame, frequently covers are disposed of as too weighty. Inspectors can and will suggest some kind of cover be installed over vital areas but teams are not reguired under robot rules to do so. I, for one, inform teams of potential dangers during inspection and offer suggestions for solving the issues. Teams are under no obligation to follow suggestions from inspectors and not all inspectors give suggestions during inspection.

[Rick]

I'm sure that there some legitimacy to the goal grabber being sharp but to me defense is defense. I distinctly remember an intentional tipping call against 121 in the nats playoffs 2003. I didn't hear an apology for that.

If it was my team, I would not have aplogized.
Well thats the thing about FIRST. We can go out and have a tough well fought match and still be friends after it. Team 126 and 121 SHARED A PIT at UTC. I know some of thier members by name, and countless others by thier face and the conversations we have had. I'm gonna go on to say Andy Grady is my homeboy.

Enought about that tip. Their are no hard feelings because of last year in curie and their should be no hard feelings towards 494. To not apoligize would be ridiculous and shows that 494 truly did not realize what they had done during the match.

I'm sorry to see some people wanting to see 494 and 121 fight over these boards but it's not going to happen.

[MrToast]

Team 126 and 121 SHARED A PIT at UTC. I know some of thier members by name, and countless others by thier face and the conversations we have had. I'm gonna go on to say Andy Grady is my homeboy.
I'm sorry to see some people wanting to see 494 and 121 fight over these boards but it's not going to happen.

Yeah! That was awesome! We had so much more space, and the 126 guys are awesome! Go Gael Force! :D

I'm going to admit that I was pretty upset over the destruction of the fan and the damage to the electrical system, but I agree with Ricksta (who is my homeboy) that it's a shame that we're trying to fight over this.

It was an accident. 494 did not TRY to destroy Rhode Warrior VI. So let's move on.

[Mike K]

494 had a good robot that was very tough. They played a little rough but the one thing that i am worried about is that team will soon just have a pure steel box that has X motors running a robot that has a X speed trans.

I give them congrats and hope that other teams will build good robots yet not pure destruction machines.

[Bduggan04]

I hope that this changes the quality of the robots. We had a problem last year where a team sent one of their devices into our robot and pulling wires out. As a result we completely enclosed everything with a 1/16" belly pan to protect the interior of the robot. This also made it easier to mount things. Teams that had bad experiences this year should remember them for next year and try to fix them. Unless they do the four team alliance thing again, there will always be defence.

[Pat Major]

I have carefully followed this thread wanting to jump in many times but not wanting to fan any negative flames against our team I held back. In true F.I.R.S.T. fashion this thread has come full circle and it appears that team 121 understands that we do not go out to damage other robots, and when we were told about the damage we removed the goal grabber on our own, officials did not ask us to remove it. Being friends is an important aspect of F.I.R.S.T. I hope that this will lead Jeff, Kyle, Matt, Rick, MrToast, Joe M121, and the rest of your team to become close friends with our team, maybe you can introduce us to team 126 they sound like a great team too. Thanks to all the teams that have supported us publicly and privately through this learning experience.

[Lee]

I was not at the championship but did play with the Martians at Peachtree this year. The goal of an engineer should be to build a machine to accomplish a task and make it tough, easy to repair, modular, etc. I rememeber Woody at my first kickoff encouraging everyone to do one thing and do it well. The Martians certainly did one thing well - they built a robust machine! That should be the primary goal of every team out there. You can't play if you're broken. I only witnessed the Martians playing rough when they were played rough with. Don't try to give out what you can't take. My utmost respect and congratulations for team 494. Everyone else should take note - theirs is a GREAT team. In real life when a machine breaks (no matter what the cause) we ask ourselves: how can we make it better next time?