FIRST Competition Entry Fee Increases for 2005

[Travis Hoffman]

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=28820


FIRST's most recent Email Blast reveals they have decided to increase the base team entrance fee to $6000 and the Championship fee to $5000. Additional regional fees remain the same at $4000. They have also taken several steps to help cushion the financial blow these increases will have on everyone (see the link above for details). They haven't raised rates since 2000, so I think it's justified for them to ask for more money, especially if it leads to an improvement in the quality of the overall FIRST experience. Hopefully, they will use the money to address many of the issues and problems expressed by FIRST'ers on these forums.

[phrontist]

Our mentor checked his email and emitted a most amusing yelp!

But we're all feeling the pressure, considering we only eked by this year :ahh:

We're going to need $11,000 :ahh: :ahh: :ahh:

[SuperDave]

Our mentor checked his email and emitted a most amusing yelp!

But we're all feeling the pressure, considering we only eked by this year :ahh:

We're going to need $11,000 :ahh: :ahh: :ahh:

im not a mentor, but i did the same... our team lost our NASA grant this year, since next year is our 4th year... If we dont find $6000 pretty soon, we may not even be able to compete in our innagural home regional next year... It's really though to find willing sponsors here in Las Vegas... good luck to all teams fronting the new price for competition!

[Joshua May]

Time to get out and fundraise some more. Our team had some problems this year with making costs due to late funding, hopefully we will be able to secure enought money. I was planning on spending a bit more money this year to go to a second regional and hopefully the Championships, hopefully $2000 wont be too big of an impact. :ahh:

[Jessica Boucher]

Honestly, this increase is way overdue. Especially with how last year's financials worked out.

But fear not. $2000 extra is only 2 $1000 donations, 4 $500, 8 $250, 20 $100, 40 $50, or 80 $20 donations. With 13 weeks from now until September, you have 6.5 weeks to get both $1000 donations, 3.25 weeks for the $500 ones, and 1.625 weeks for the $250 donations.

If you can build an entire robot in 6 weeks from start to finish, a $1000 donation should be no sweat. So, hop to it! :D

PS. $2000 = 40,000 returned cans. I suggest hitting up some companies. :)

[Elgin Clock]

PS. $2000 = 40,000 returned cans. I suggest hitting up some companies. :)
Hmm.. maybe a road trip to NH to get their unused returnables is in order...
I think I may already be taking a side trip up to NH during Battlecry, maybe I'll rent a U-Haul and rummage everybody's recycle bins up there.:p

There is no $0.05 deposit in NH, so getting these unused cans and bottles from residents will be rather simple.. :cool:

[Astronouth7303]

1. it's illegal
2. MI has 10 cents.

[Greg Needel]

i am not saying that i like the increase in cost but after reading their e-mail i think that it will help in the long run. I would also like to commend FIRST for telling this information so far in advance that it gives teams more of and oppertunity to rase the additional funds if needed. The question i do have is how much the cost of the wrap dinner and hotels will go down because of this. FIRST sounded like they were straining with 90 a person maybe they will drop it to 85....i doubt we will see a sugnifigant decrees but on the same note $5 over a team with 50 people can go a long way.....

[Elgin Clock]

1. it's illegal
2. MI has 10 cents.
What's illegal?? Was that in reference to my post about going "canning"?

[dez250]

What's illegal?? Was that in reference to my post about going "canning"?

Yes it is illegal to move cans from one state to another to gain a profit from the return of the recycle rate. Also our team does bottle and can drives a few times a year and make a large profit from it. i would suggest you to contact distributers around your area and skip the middle man (the grocery store) for returning the bottles and cans and you will make a larger profit.

[Ryan F.]

Honestly, this increase is way overdue. Especially with how last year's financials worked out.

But fear not. $2000 extra is only 2 $1000 donations, 4 $500, 8 $250, 20 $100, 40 $50, or 80 $20 donations. With 13 weeks from now until September, you have 6.5 weeks to get both $1000 donations, 3.25 weeks for the $500 ones, and 1.625 weeks for the $250 donations.

If you can build an entire robot in 6 weeks from start to finish, a $1000 donation should be no sweat. So, hop to it! :D

PS. $2000 = 40,000 returned cans. I suggest hitting up some companies. :)

May be easy for some teams, but this strikes me as quite and problem for ours. Some teams have the resources that 2000 isn't much, but teams like us have a difficult time raising 6000+ just to cover both our entry fee, and the costs to build the robot. Now we'll have to end up looking for a lot more money that really isn't that available. I'm very interested in why they actually increased the fee. Do they every have a cost breakdown of the entry fee?

--I realize they tried to explain it in the e-mail, but do they ever have a dollar for dollar cost breakdown?

[Jessica Boucher]

May be easy for some teams, but this strikes me as quite and problem for ours. Some teams have the resources that 2000 isn't much, but teams like us have a difficult time raising 6000+ just to cover both our entry fee, and the costs to build the robot. Now we'll have to end up looking for a lot more money that really isn't that available. I'm very interested in why they actually increased the fee. Do they every have a cost breakdown of the entry fee?

Look here for the breakdown of last year's annual report. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=217939&postcount=8) FIRST isn't Amazon....it can't run at a loss forever. Especially since it's a non-profit: donations are easier to pull off for a NP with good financials, since it shows that the organization is responsible and is using the money well.

As for fundraising troubles, PM me and I'd be happy to give you a hand :)

[Ryan F.]

If you thought I was meaning that bitter or harsh to you...don't. I just used your post because I thought the just 2 thousand dollar donations was funny.

[Cory]

If you look hard enough, you will find the money. For months my team moaned that there was no money to be had, that everyone had nothing to give, etc, etc.

Fact of the matter is, when our team actually tried to raise money, we did. In a period of 3 weeks to 1 month, we raised over 13,000 dollars.

There is money out there. Sure, it isn't as much as say 4-5 years ago before the recession of our economy, but it is there. It's all a matter of how hard you look.

I do not care where you live. I do not care how many people you have on your team, if the parents are rich, or poor. None of that matters. If you try, and I mean actually *try*, not make halfhearted attempts to raise money, I guarentee you can find the extra money needed.

To get back on topic, I think this is a good thing. The value of everything we get in the KOP, plus a regional event is worth far more than $5,000. Paying another $1000 isn't fun, but as Jessica said, FIRST cannot always run on a loss. Even though it may not seem like it, the extra $1000 fee is benefitting everyone in the end.

$0.02 Cory

[mtaman02]

Though I am no longer on a FIRST team and help as many as I can as a mentor, I do feel for the teams that do struggle with funding.

First off A team that has 2 second place wins and 2 first place wins consecutively has a very hard time in finding sponsorship. the said team also has a hard time finding sponsorship even though they are widely known in that specific area.

Second off for the teams that can find sponsorship yet do fair next to poorly at a competition is unfair. ( not to knock the teams that do in fact try but get hit with a bad luck )

This all comes down to how much a company is willing to put in. Not how much a team can raise. Yes economy stinks right about now and there really isn't anything we can do. FIRST maybe a non-profit organization but they too need some sort of funding to pay rent and other items. Question is, is it right to get that extra cash from the teams or try looking for more sponosors to get in on this. Getting sponsorship for a team is difficult, If sponsors found out they had to put more into a successful / not so successful team they could in fact turn the team down and dropping the amount of teams participating.

I'm all for an increase but 2000$ is alot esp when its hard to just find 500$. If first upped the price an additional $500 bux it would be much more reasonable to find and pay. $2000 / $1000 is a bit much! An average team goes through about $20000 a year.

15 grand goes to registration, 1 regional and a championship (if ure not part of any of their new Tier divisions or other special invites) $5000+ goes to travel / hotel and meal accomodations. all together equals a hefty bill. not to mention the equipment and supplies they need for the robot.

Gas is up to almost 2.50 $ in NY and will probably shoot on up further. Taxi Fares have shot on up to nearly the same rate ($2.50 base fare). MTA (NYCTA, TBTA, SIRTOA, MaBSTOA, LIRR, MNR, etc.......) Fares have increased in each of its smaller divisions. One city to have many difficulties in finding sponsorship is NYC. Many companies would sponsor but these companies are hard to reach.

CeBit Convention happened over the past 5 days. Big Name companies were there NEC IOMEGA etc...... NYC FIRST! had a mock layout with 5 - 6 teams participating playing the 2004 game. Over 10000 people were there at most maybe 300 people stopped and had a quick glance and at most half of those came over asked the teams questions on various topics. Im sure these teams asked for a sponsorship opp. Another question would be will the companies that stopped by and watched the matches and asked questions what are the chances of them sponsoring one of the 6 that were there????

FIRST could have raised the price in different ways why was initial registration one of those ways?

Anyone who thinks i'm looking at this the wrong way plz show me the happy ending cuz its not that clear to me =o(

Pro for Price Raising CON for the Timing in which FIRST did this.

Registration $6000
Nationals $5000
Regionals $4000
Off Season Event Registration and Traveling at least $1400
Robot Building Materials and Extra Accessories + Tools At Least $1500 +
Traveling to said Regional / National at least $3000 estimated each more or less!

Add it up and its almost $20000 if not over.

[Ken Leung]

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=28820


FIRST's most recent Email Blast reveals they have decided to increase the base team entrance fee to $6000 and the Championship fee to $5000. Additional regional fees remain the same at $4000. They have also taken several steps to help cushion the financial blow these increases will have on everyone (see the link above for details). They haven't raised rates since 2000, so I think it's justified for them to ask for more money, especially if it leads to an improvement in the quality of the overall FIRST experience. Hopefully, they will use the money to address many of the issues and problems expressed by FIRST'ers on these forums.

I am afraid this is one of those cases where there is no perfect solution.

FIRST cost a lot of money to run, we all understand that. Robots takes a lot of money to build, we all surely must feel that pain by now. In order to host a 3 day competition for 36-70 teams each weekend, you need a lot of money. In order to bring 20-50 kids to a robotics competition for 3 days, you need a lot of money.

Many people have commented their concern of how expensive FIRST is for many years now. Some of them might not have done FIRST at all, some of them has done FIRST but moved on and form their own organization or teams, some decide to remain in FIRST and support its cause. It is not a new problem. There is no right or wrong in this. It is a phenomenon we have to deal with if we want something in return: the education and inspiration of our future.

Is it worth all the trouble? The sleepless nights? The endless headache? Is it worth the energy to find enough resources to keep this going? That's probably the same questions many before our time have asked when they found a noble cause they are willing to chase after. In the modern time when its harder and harder to feel a sense of purpose, we are lucky to have a community to care about, and ideas to uphold. Is this worth it, you might ask to yourself... For me, I can't tell for sure, but I feel it's a right direction for me. Certainly it feel more right than any other directions I've seen.

What we shouldn't do is ask why this is happening to me. What we should do is ask how we can fix this problem, because giving up is not acceptable for those of us who care enough. In my experience, when everyone contribute a little more than they are expected, you can get amazing results from a group of individuals. Maybe that's something we should do.

If we can think out of the box and get just a little more money for the teams, it will help. If we can come up with a way to build a cheaper goal for the field, it will help. If we can volunteer just a little more time to help FIRST run competitions, it will help.

After all, all we can do is a little more than 100%, and hope for the best, right? ;-)

[JohnBoucher]

FIRST is still a bargain.

I agree that this will be a major concern to many teams. Of all the functions on a team, fund raising is the hardest and the one that is perceived as the least glamorous.

But it is no less important than any other function.
From my perspective (former parent only and now a mentor), The FIRST experience is about being self-sufficient. A robot team is a company and a company needs to make (raise) enough money to be a success. That is a fact of life for a company.

FIRST is a life lesson on steroids.

As an employee of that company (team) you have roles. The success of each of the roles contributes to the success of the company. If one role isn’t successful, then the company fails at achieving their goals. Each of the roles is as important as the next. Design can fail, manufacturing can fail and fundraising can fail. All roles need to be successful for the company (team) to succeed. It’s all about making everything work together.

I apologize if this sounds like a rant. It’s not. I have seen this both work and fail. It is such a wonderful thing when it works and a heart breaker when it doesn’t.

I feel bad for the teams that try their best to raise enough money and cannot raise what they need. This will make it harder for them.

But, I really feel bad for the teams that have the deep pockets and don’t need to have their members raise money. It’s all part of the experience and they miss out on that part.

[Doug G]

I'm still agast at hearing about teams' confidence in raising $20k. This past year we sent proposals to over 150 companies in our area with only 2 sponsorships in return for a total of $200. Idealy we would have students / parents doing follow-ups with many of these companies, but I have yet to have any parent volunteer to do this. Even our PTA, err Boosters organization, is just a handful of parents that try to get $$ for our athletics teams and our Band. They did what they could to get us $250. All of the parents on our team work (no stay at home moms/dads to help us) during the week and they do what they can for us on the weekend (bringing food, running to hardware store, make sure students wear their safety glasses, etc..). Luckily our saving grace has been the continued support of our local Rotary ($1k) and the addition of our only large corporate sponser, Goodrich, which contributed $2k. Other than that our district has bailed us out by chipping in $5k. The rest of the $$ came from selling pizzas afterschool and the students holding a LAN party. So we absolutely struggled to raise $10k (for 2 comps + materials), and left students to pay any expenses and sometimes materials. Will we be able to raise $1k - $2k more next year - I don't know? But we will try? Yep... As the sole adult on the team that organizes the fundraising - I'm just starting to worry about getting burned out. I guess I just lack that entrepeneurship attitude - maybe I should have watched more of Trump's reality show. The extra $1k - $2k will be hard on us, but we we'll try.

[Astronouth7303]

Charge $5 dollars for 2 minutes of driving the robot. You'll all set!

[SuperDave]

In 2002 and 2003, there were 4 teams in the Las Vegas area. But this year, 2004, two of the teams folded because of the lack of money. This next year, our team which survived, hopes to restart these teams, but now, im not too sure we will be able to. In addition we would like to start other new teams in the Las Vegas area. I'm not sure we will be successful, becuase we are going to have a hard time finding enough money for ourselves to compete. I'm not completely against this price increase, but for a team like ours to continue competing, this increase will definetly have us scrambling to find money. Last Saturday we raised almost $900 at a Yard Sale for our team. That made me feel like we were going to be in a good position for next year. Not anymore... Is there a thread or forum for fundrasing ideas on CD?

[Joe Matt]

*sigh* I hate price increases, but I know this is necessary for FIRST to survive. Now I gotta send out a team email.... more fund raising is needed now....

[Sean Schuff]

I was surprised when I received the email blast regarding the price increases. Not so much that they raised the entry fee but because there was no hint that this was in the works. Usually there are rumblings throughout the FIRST commnity that give us an idea that something is coming. I certainly didn't see it coming but was not surprised with what I read.

I, too, feel for the teams that are hanging on by a financial thread. It makes me cringe when I hear/read that teams have folded for lack of funding. Why aren't more companies stepping up and supporting our teams? Especially in a country where 7 years and $750 million dollars (yes, three-quarters of a billion dollars!) was spent on R & D for a men's shaving razor! Priorities?!

Our team will adjust our strategies to stetch our dollars and find new ways to raise funds. Fortunately we have a sponsor (Plexus Corporation) and a school district (Appleton Area School District) that are both EXTREMELY supportive of what we are doing and they see the "big picture" value that it has. $2,000 will make us rethink how we spend our money but that isn't such a bad exercise every once in a while.

I look forward to discussion on CD regarding which fundraising ideas/methods work the best. The silver lining is that this is just another obstacle to overcome, another opportunity to seek new sponsors while at the same time spreading the message of FIRST. Sort of like having to develop a strategy, design a robot, build a robot, test a robot, and ship a robot...all in 6 short weeks!

Our two options: throw our hands in the air and say "Ugh. It's not worth the cost!" or develop more real-life skills in finding the extra $2,000 to support a team. Choose, but choose wisely! :)

Sean

[LauraN]

Is there a thread or forum for fundrasing ideas on CD?This is ChiefDelphi. There are threads on everything!

In fact, there's an entire forum for fundraising ideas here: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=63

But here are two specific threads:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24178

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24233

So, in the good old FIRST spirit, let's all start brainstorming and sharing ideas, ok? :D

[Ryan F.]

And now we’re back to the good old debate over funding. The big problem here is that there are really two classes of first teams in this department. Those who easily have it, and those who barely get it. So here’s my opinions from someone on a team who doesn’t readily have loads of $$.

First stresses teams being self sufficient organizations, almost your own mini-business. This is where I have a big problem with the price increases. Why?...I’ve asked…is the price being increased so much. People have nicely responded and offered me financial reports and such, but nowhere have I ever found a dollar for dollar breakdown that justifies a need for 1000 extra dollars.

First is our supplier. If you were running a business, and your supplier all of a sudden said that they are increasing your fees by 20%, you wouldn’t just blindly accept that. Your first reaction here would be to demand evidence of why these supplies cost more now. What you would expect in return would be the exact cost of what you were receiving, such as our kit of parts+regional. In order for FIRST to increase the prices such as they are, they need to justify it by showing the cost of the kit+ the realistic cost to them of one team at a regional. Its bad business not to be giving us anything like this, and business in the real world that did this would lose their contracts. The reason they FIRST will never is that they are a total monopoly. No-one else has anything like this, and that is completely understandable. FIRST must respect that, and act responsibly.

Then we get back to the problem between some teams having lots of money, and others having none. In my belief, FIRST could have worked out this price increase a lot better than they did. Many teams, like us, barely have the money to do one regional and build our robot, yet you see other teams that seem to have more money than they know what to do with. I think it would have made a lot more sense for them to increase the cost of a second regional by 1000. This would shift the extra financial burden to those who can handle it. You have teams saying 1000 isn’t much to raise, when that would have been 1/7 of our teams total $ this year.

People need to remember that money is a big part of FIRST, and that tons of money isn’t readily available to everyone. It’s one of those inevitable things we must accept, but there are many better ways it could be dealt with.

[Kevin Sevcik]

I'm mostly concerned with the impact this will have on rookie teams and FIRST's overall growth rate. $5000+ is already a large amount for a team to raise to start out with, and adding a extra K will hurt. I think what will hurt most though, will be the NASA grants. NASA gives out hundreds of 5K grants to rookie teams, but I don't think they could bear a straight 20% increase in the money they're putting out. Especially without it going to more teams. If NASA has to cut the number of teams they fund, the growth rate is going to take a sharp dive.

Also, I know all this is going to fund FIRST and such, but I'm questioning the logic of a team paying more money to go to one of the new streamlined regionals with no party and reduced AV....

[JVN]

I'm excited.
Hopefully this price increase will cause FIRST to be a better experience for all involved. Bring on 2005.

John

[mtaman02]

I'm mostly concerned with the impact this will have on rookie teams and FIRST's overall growth rate. $5000+ is already a large amount for a team to raise to start out with, and adding a extra K will hurt. I think what will hurt most though, will be the NASA grants. NASA gives out hundreds of 5K grants to rookie teams, but I don't think they could bear a straight 20% increase in the money they're putting out. Especially without it going to more teams. If NASA has to cut the number of teams they fund, the growth rate is going to take a sharp dive.

Also, I know all this is going to fund FIRST and such, but I'm questioning the logic of a team paying more money to go to one of the new streamlined regionals with no party and reduced AV....

Which is why we should'nt just accept this. IS there a better way to raise the price with out shoving it all on registration fees or doing it in one lump sum maybe monthly payments

[Pierson]

...The big problem here is that there are really two classes of first teams in this department. Those who easily have it, and those who barely get it. So here’s my opinions from someone on a team who doesn’t readily have loads of $$.

I would add one more class, those who have it, but have to work really really hard to get it.

Some teams have one dedicated person who does the majority of fundraising. But oh no, if that person graduates.

[Cory]

Which is why we should'nt just accept this.

See that's the thing. You have to accept it, or you don't participate. End of discussion. We aren't doing FIRST a favor. They're doing us a favor.

When they made this announcement, they weren't announcing a debate as to whether prices should be increased or not. They were telling us that they would be, and they did a good job of explaining why. As has been previosuly stated, it's been a good while since the entrance fee was last raised, and it's about time they did again.

As I already said, the bang for the buck is unparalled. Where else can $6000 change an entire group of student's lives forever? I know that FIRST has been worth every last cent that my team has payed, for me, and much much more.

Hey, at least they told us now, some 5 odd months before registration. They could've waited to make this decision and told everyone at the beginning of September.

Again, if you cannot find an extra $1000, you *are not* trying hard enough.

Cory

[Pierson]

It sounds like some of you have some animosity towards the increase in the entry fee. This would be understandable if it were a month prior to the payment due date and it would be very understandable if it were less than a month to the due date. However as Cory and Jessica and many others have said, we have over 5 months, which is plenty of time.

While I am now an alum, there are so many businesses that my team has not tapped and this is because we haven't had the financial need nor the student participation required to bring more sponsors on board. I would bet that there are many teams who are in this position.

Would it be great if FIRST could raise enough money to support a staff of 200 people, support 50 regionals, a major Championship event, along with 2,000 teams all without an entry fee? Yes. But is that possible? No. So let’s take this in stride work a little bit harder to raise more money and I will bet that everything will be better in the long run!

[Max Lobovsky]

Honestly, this increase is way overdue. Especially with how last year's financials worked out.

But fear not. $2000 extra is only 2 $1000 donations, 4 $500, 8 $250, 20 $100, 40 $50, or 80 $20 donations. With 13 weeks from now until September, you have 6.5 weeks to get both $1000 donations, 3.25 weeks for the $500 ones, and 1.625 weeks for the $250 donations.

If you can build an entire robot in 6 weeks from start to finish, a $1000 donation should be no sweat. So, hop to it! :D

PS. $2000 = 40,000 returned cans. I suggest hitting up some companies. :)etting a garbage truckJessica, your logic is a bit flawed. You are assuming teams already have the money that would cover last year's entry fee. Those that don't, have 13 weeks to raise $11,000, or as you put it, 11 $1000 donations, 22 $500, 44 $250, 110 $100, 220 $50, or 550 $20 donations. With 13 weeks from now until September, you have ~1.2 weeks for each $1000 donation, ~0.6 weeks for the $500 ones, and ~0.3 weeks for the $250 donations. Or as I'd put it, you should be getting a $20 donation every 4 hours from now 'till September


$11,000 = 220,000 returned cans. I suggest getting a garbage truck.

[Billfred]

Actually, I think the idea of breaking up the fees over time might be an idea, especially for additional regionals. Two grand when you register, two more when you ship? I don't think not paying would be a problem, given that you've already put in two thousand bucks.

I'm not saying it's THE solution, just an idea. If someone who knows more can show how it'd be a bad thing, I'll gladly eat my words--with ketchup, even!

[Max Lobovsky]

Actually, I think the idea of breaking up the fees over time might be an idea, especially for additional regionals. Two grand when you register, two more when you ship? I don't think not paying would be a problem, given that you've already put in two thousand bucks.

I'm not saying it's THE solution, just an idea. If someone who knows more can show how it'd be a bad thing, I'll gladly eat my words--with ketchup, even!
Interesting idea. Maybe FIRST can get some financial company to sponsor them by providing the multiple payment solution.

[dez250]

Interesting idea. Maybe FIRST can get some financial company to sponsor them by providing the multiple payment solution.

I think by giving teams the oppertunity to send in multiple payments and break it up over time, might not be the best idea. What happens when a team wont pay up on one of their payments but have all ready competed?

[Ryan F.]

I think by giving teams the oppertunity to send in multiple payments and break it up over time, might not be the best idea. What happens when a team wont pay up on one of their payments but have all ready competed?

Very good point. As long as FIRST waits for payment until close to the kickoff, then that's the best way to go. Making a payment scedule before the kickoff would make no sense, and just complicate the system already in place.

[Pierson]

I think it can be said that those teams who are driven, who are motivated, and who work really hard will come up with the money to compete. They will have the money to FIRST by the time FIRST needs the money.

And as for having a multiple payment plan, just have all payments due before the competition for which you are paying!

[Astronouth7303]

Yeah, but by then you already made off w/ the expensive stuff.

[Billfred]

Tis true--you couldn't do this for the "first play" as they put it. It's just not good business sense to give to a group (even a FIRST team) to give teams thousands of dollars' worth of items without getting the cash first.

However, when you deal with additional regionals (including the championship), there is no tangible thing given to a team. If a team pulls out, you yank their sign off of the pole, take them out of the computer, and put in another team. Therefore, it is a financially safer thing to do at this stage, especially if you make a sizable chunk (a couple hundred dollars) non-refundable.

[Max Lobovsky]

It's not like i suggested something completely crazy and out of the ordinary. Loans? Mortgages? These aren't new problems and there are ways to deal with them. I doubt that a financial company might actually provide a special service for FIRST, but it definitley isn't ridiculous to imagine a payment plan for FIRST.

[Pierson]

It's not like i suggested something completely crazy and out of the ordinary. Loans? Mortgages?

Not to be negative, but the first thing that jumped into my mind was: What kind of bad publicity would FIRST get if teams started defaulting on their loans or declaring bankrupcy??? :ahh:

I think the current method of pay up front to play will probably work for another couple of years!

[Kevin Sevcik]

I'm slightly offended by the posters that are accusing people of not being motivated if they can't raise the extra $1000. I'm quite certain that there are teams out there that are working incredibly hard as it is to secure their current level of funding. It's especially hard for teams in rural areas to get funding as there aren't businesses nearby or a large population base to draw on. And despite some improvement, the economy still isn't in the greatest shape, and corporations are still running with tight budgets. So, I think that the price increase will definitely cause problems for rookie teams and teams that are already strapped for cash. Any arguments about teams simply not trying hard enough ignore the real issues that these teams face and that this increase causes.

[Jessica Boucher]

Jessica, your logic is a bit flawed. You are assuming teams already have the money that would cover last year's entry fee.

I wasn't counting out the rest of it. I was showing how marginally, it's not much more than what you're already fundraising. Sometimes big numbers like $2000 initially scare people (like me), and they can take it easier when it's broken down.

"Power of the supplier" happens all the time....so much so that it's a textbook term (it's part of Porter's Five Forces). What's great about FIRST as opposed to a normal company is that we will actually see the difference this extra cash makes, whether it be in better service, nicer regionals, or whatever...they know that this increase means a lot of extra blood, sweat & tears to us and FIRST will make sure that we know that they appreciate it and that it is making the difference that they needed it to make.

I think a payment plan would be a great idea. In my sorority our finance person is required by HQ to offer at least three different payment plans per semester. Late payments are dealt with through late fees that add up per week late.

Face it, fundraising is part of the game challenge. There are some teams out there who just have it easier than other teams, just like there are some teams who have an easier time putting out a robot. I know it's hard, but just like putting a robot out on the field, fundraising can be accomplished with a little extra elbow grease from everyone, no matter what kind of team you hail from.

So, let's start being proactive about this. Can anyone put together something with past threads that concern fundraising techniques?

[Max Lobovsky]

"Power of the supplier" happens all the time....so much so that it's a textbook term (it's part of Porter's Five Forces). What's great about FIRST as opposed to a normal company is that we will actually see the difference this extra cash makes, whether it be in better service, nicer regionals, or whatever...they know that this increase means a lot of extra blood, sweat & tears to us and FIRST will make sure that we know that they appreciate it and that it is making the difference that they needed it to make.
I don't mean to be the pessimist, and I am not actually complaining, but considering the "streamlining" of regionals, as someone put it above, its more likely to believe that this increase is just to maintain the level then to raise it. Wether it be inflation or greater overheads due to a greater number of teams, costs are definitley rising.

So, let's start being proactive about this. Can anyone put together something with past threads that concern fundraising techniques?
And feel free to put it in the how-to fund raise article (http://www.firstwiki.org/index.php?title=How-to_fund_raise&action=edit) on FIRSTwiki (http://firstwiki.org).

[Bharat Nain]

With us discussing over here, I dont think FIRST is going to reduce the prices. Therefore, However incredibly hard some teams need to work to secure the money they need, they just need to do. It is unfortunate for some if they cannot participate just because of financial concerns, but I guess working hard and giving it a shot isnt too bad. Sometimes I wish it were that easy to get sponsors, but no. If teams can organize a fund-raising game-plan for the next 5 months, I think its possible for them to gain enough.

Here is my idea:
1) Gather all ideas for fund-raising
2) Separate the team into two groups. One being small.
3) The smaller group goes full-force searching for sponsors and working with that matter.
4) The other group sets up weekly schedules for things and ways to fund-raise.

So 5 months = about 22 weeks = 154 days.

I feel in 22 weeks a team could pull together a good amount of money to satisfy the teams needs. I know talking is easy, but doing is hard, but lets just accept the fact and work towards it. You could also mantain a notebook or something and update it weekly, so that it tells you how much more to your goal... I can just wish good luck to all teams :)
-Bharat

[mtaman02]

Ok Ok..... FIRST has increased the prices nobody in their right state of mind can go up to FIRST and ask for a lenient solution. So like I and a few others have stated. Instead of this fee being paid up front. Can it be broken down into monthly payments with the end date being before Nationals. So From opening time which would be generally around End of August / Beginning of September and have a date that it has to be in by no later then at least 1 week or more before Nationals. The only flaw I see with this is a team Participating and Paying after!.

FundRaising Solutions:

Bake Sales
Car Washes
If your in NYC You can help with the cleanup for the Marathon
Yard Sales
Garage Sales
Candy Sales
Bagging at Supermarkets
Emailing and visiting with robot in hand to every Company in ure area Big and Small.
Advertise and do a Demonstration of the game. Charge those who are coming a 25$ fee (from the audience) . maybe have a few teams get in on this as well and split the proceeds.

Any other ideas !!!

[Steve W]

What would the difference be in paying in installments before you compete and paying at one time? You still need to colect the funds. I have noticed also that when people haven't paid there is a tendancy to back out if no money is going to be lost.

[Joe Matt]

Ah, the never ending quagmire, if you don't raise the prices, none will be able to partcipate, but raise the prices and mabey a few can't. I'd rather have a FIRST to participate in, and mabey not have a team that year, but not have a FIRST and be able to pay upfront what it would have cost to get in.

There's two ways for FIRST to stop the hikes or reduce the payments:

-Get more corporate sponsors
-Reduce the kit of parts & strip down the regionals

[Pierson]

-Get more corporate sponsors
-Reduce the kit of parts & strip down the regionals

Neither, IMHO, should happen. It's the lesser of two evils here.

What's wrong with more corporate sponsors??? Isn't that they way most if not all teams stay in the game?

[Joe Matt]

What's wrong with more corporate sponsors??? Isn't that they way most if not all teams stay in the game?
Whooops! That was a brain fart. Let me correct that statement....

[dez250]

Let me remind or show you all the list of 1997 competitions, maybe it will enlighten you all a little more why the prices were raised...

http://www30.brinkster.com/dez250/97backhalf.jpg

Yup thats right 3 regionals and 1 championship event. Since then we are at almost 30 regionals and still the single championship event, but on a MUCH LARGER scale... If each regional costed $150,000 to run thats $4.5 million to have the 30 regionals. With say 1000 teams competing at 1 regional (not counting multiple regionals attended) at $4000 each, so a total of $4 million to spend to hold the regionals. Now this also does not cover all the other fees that are spent on the venues, crew, shipping and misc fees, so at best right now, FIRST is about breaking even for the regionals. Also i am not counting the amount it costs for each field and for the kits and innovation first equiptment. Maybe we should all stop complaining that FIRST raised the costs only $1000 for enitial registeration and $1000 for the championship event and start thanking them for all they have done and that they only raised prices 2 grand this year and if i average that over the 5 years it will be since the last raise, that is $400/year, which in my eyes is amazing that it is so small...

I hope this lets some more of you in on why the fees were raised, and oh yeah i forgot to say 95% of the crew you see at events are volunteers and not paid staff, i know this year alone as a volunteer i spent the same if not more then my team spent on our robot...


(Please dont take this as an insult or a bash to anyone, i just wanted to let some of you in more on the basic fees of holding competitions...)

[team222badbrad]

This was my thread from April of 2003.

Will first ever raise or lower the entrance fee? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20452)

The poll results were as follows:


Yes I think they will raise it in the near future 11 36.67%
Yes I think they will lower it in the near future 2 6.67%
No I think it will stay the same for some time 17 56.67%

[Ryan Foley]

I'm slightly offended by the posters that are accusing people of not being motivated if they can't raise the extra $1000. I'm quite certain that there are teams out there that are working incredibly hard as it is to secure their current level of funding. It's especially hard for teams in rural areas to get funding as there aren't businesses nearby or a large population base to draw on. And despite some improvement, the economy still isn't in the greatest shape, and corporations are still running with tight budgets. So, I think that the price increase will definitely cause problems for rookie teams and teams that are already strapped for cash. Any arguments about teams simply not trying hard enough ignore the real issues that these teams face and that this increase causes.

::standing ovation from all of us on 350::

I completely agree with Kevin. You can not say that those of us who cant get another 1000 arent motivated. Every team in FIRST wants to compete as much as any other team involved. Teams like mine, who are in very rural areas have very few businesses around willing to donate money. I cant think of a major cooperate sponsor within our district (one that has money engineers and such). We barely made the $5000 last year and that was collected over a period of 3 years. And we only scrapped up about $800 more for building our bot.

It's not a matter of motivation, its location.

I understand that the price increase is necessary, I'm supportive of FIRST and their decision, it means 2005 will be even better than 2004.

[Steve W]

I know that I have stated this before BUT, The registration moneys do NOT go to the regionals. There is a small amount to help prop up regionals that have not made the amount needed. I believe that I saw a figure of $800,000.00 for this but I could be wrong. The regionals are suppose to support themselves. When you talk of a stripped down regional that is because the regional committee was unable to raise the full amount for a full blown regional. Even then some regionals could not cover expenses. It is understood that a new regional could take 2 - 3 years to break even but then they should be self sufficient.

The real question might be, If the regional can't find enough funds, should it then be cancelled?

[Kevin Sevcik]

Steve is right, of course, the majority of regional fees go towards supporting FIRST corporate, buying kits, etc. In fact, I think more and more money is going into buying kits and putting more stuff in the kits. Which raises another question.... Why are we having to pay so much for kits? I know they have all kinds of interesting and useful stuff in them, and they're incredibly cool... but frankly, I know my team has no use for a large portion of the kit every year. If we're allowed to buy whatever we want from MSC, etc., why can't they start cutting down on the size of the kit and let us spend money on just the stuff we want and will use? Surely that would be more cost effective. Just my thoughts...

[Sean Schuff]

Here's another twist to the discussion...

What are YOU willing to pay to stay involved in FIRST Robotics? What if the $2000 came out of the pockets of the team members and not from corporate sponsors? If you've got 40 members (students AND mentors) that would amount to $50 per person. How many of you would be willing to forego a movie or dinner out every once a month to save the $50 per YEAR to stay involved in FIRST. In the tradition of Jessica Boucher, that's $4.17 per month, or $.96 per week or $.14 per day. $.14 PER DAY!! I toss at least that much change into my change jar every day!

With 3 kids, 1 wife, two cars, a mortgage, miscellaneous other bills too numerous to mention and a single income, I would still find a way to save the $50 so my students could still participate in FIRST. I believe so strongly in what FIRST has to offer my students that I am willing to dig into my OWN very shallow pockets to help pay the way.

Am I suggesting that every team should personally absorb this additional cost? Of course not. But when push comes to shove, you've got to do what you've got to do. Sometimes corporate sponsorship and fundraising help to ease costs. But if it's crunch time and you don't have the funds are any of you seriously going to drop involvement in FIRST for $.14 a day?

Not me.

Just my .14 cents! :)

Sean

[Steve W]

Sorry for posting so often. One thing I forgot was that a lot of the items in the kit are donated or purchased at a VERY low rate. That is why we get so much for so little. Sponsers want us to see and use their products. That is why they donate product more than cash. Why sponser teams that turn around and use a competitors product?

[Ryan F.]

The real question might be, If the regional can't find enough funds, should it then be cancelled?

FIRST stresses that their program mimics the real world. If something can't support itself, it can't exist in the real world. My opinion is definely that if a regional dosen't support itself, it should be ended.

[Hinkel Y.]

Students from our school were hesitating to pay the $20 CDN entry fee to join our robotics team. Even further, from what I have heard, sponsors have left vetran teams to sponsor regionals and rookie teams.

For regionals that can't support itself, it would have to depend on how many teams attend that regional. If that regional is at or near full capacity, and yet it is not sustainable, it should NOT be cancelled. But if the regional is at or less than half capacity and have shown little interest in teams for two concecutive years, it should be cancelled and hopefully be moved to a different location with more interested teams.

There's one question, should there be a cap of how much money one team can recieve from their sponsors? And if sponsors are willing to give more money, should the money over the cap be given to FIRST and be evenly spread across to regionals and/or other FIRST expenses?

The reason for FIRST is to inspire students from all over to Science, Technology, Engineering, etc. And with this, FIRST is not like the real world where the most important thing is to make and not loose money. This is why regionals should not be cancelled because FIRST is loosing money over the lack of sponsors the regional can find. Regionals do help in the proccess to inspire students.

[Sean Schuff]

There's one question, should there be a cap of how much money one team can recieve from their sponsors? And if sponsors are willing to give more money, should the money over the cap be given to FIRST and be evenly spread across to regionals and/or other FIRST expenses?


Yikes! Not to put too fine a point on it but that sounds a bit like FIRST Robotics welfare. Or salary caps!

Not that I'm opposed to sharing the wealth, however, if a team works hard to get significant sponsorship shouldn't that money be theirs? I would like to think that teams are gracious enough to help other teams out but, based on this thread, money IS an issue. I imagine most teams are a bit reluctant to part with theirs.

Additionally, team expenses are based heavily on travel. I can't imagine that my team's travel expenses are as great as, say, the Brazilian team or teams from Hawaii or the Pacific Northwest.

This is definitely a subject to be dealt with delicately but also in a head-on manner. It is what it is and we need to adjust.

Sean

[mtaman02]

Am I suggesting that every team should personally absorb this additional cost? Of course not. But when push comes to shove, you've got to do what you've got to do. Sometimes corporate sponsorship and fundraising help to ease costs. But if it's crunch time and you don't have the funds are any of you seriously going to drop involvement in FIRST for $.14 a day?

Just my .14 cents! :)

Sean

this also doesn't sound like a bad idea as well. Take whatever unused change you have that day and put it in a jar. Total it up eventually and subtract from the amount needed and you could have a new amount that could be sponsor friendly.

or

everyone puts in 10$ at the end of the week $10 x 10 persons - 50 persons is about $100 - $500 a week. for the large scale of members suchs as TJ2 / CD / Tigertrons and a few others $10 from each member weekly will all in itself make up the fee.

for the smaller scaled teams $5 a week multiplied by the team members (coaches included - as if they don't do enough for us alumni and students as it is) could add up the cost.

if u COULD do this yr round you could very well keep the team afloat till it gets a sponsor(s).

Once again not saying you should or saying that everyone has a job but when u look at it every dollar counts and it all depends on ure devotion and willingness to help keep FIRST and your team afloat and above the rising waters.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Frankly, I don't think the 40 person teams out there are going to be the ones that will have problems with this. Again, this fee increase will hit the smaller, poorer teams the hardest, while the bigger teams with big sponsors won't have many problems with it. My biggest problem with the increase is that it's rather like a regressive tax. A team that goes to just one regional for the whole season sees a 20% increase in cost. A team that goes to 3 regionals sees a less than 10% increase in costs. So... Big teams with lots of money don't have much trouble with the increase, while small struggling teams have to struggle even more. Like I've said, this particular fee structure will just make it harder to get and keep rookie teams, and will make it harder to spread the program. At some point, teams and sponsors will start looking at other programs like BEST as a better bang for the buck.

[Pierson]

OK... this just dawned on me… Many people are saying "The entry fee doesn't go to pay for the regionals, it pays for the KOP and the people in Manchester."

Well, then, does this mean that Dave, Woodie, Dean, et. al. will be making a major change in the KOP for the 2004-2005 season? Does this mean that we will be seeing a major new component, electronic or something radical, which will make sweeping changes to the game? And FIRST needs this extra $1,000 to pay for it? (or maybe it costs $500 but they need more money to pay for overhead?)

Yes, maybe FIRST wants us to think that the fee increase is going to support more infrastructure back at the HQ... But, what if we think outside the box?

[Mike Norton]

First I like to say that FIRST did a great job in getting this out to the teams now so we can plan on it. In the past FIRST wouldn't let you know until the last min.

Second we have been around a long time and we have seen them raise there prices before. and always people have to give there 2 cents about why.

This is what I can't understand. Why can a place like Bean town Bliz put on a great after market competition for only $250. The pits were better than UCF regionals. the thought of bringing in the robots like we did was the best I have ever seen at a competition.

I have read in the past about what FIRST what to put across to everybody. And how they want to make the show so much better. But what I have seen in the past 10 years is the same in the competition side. Maybe a little less now that there isn't a party after some of these regional.

If it is the cost of the kits that is going up then find lets pay more for that. but the cost of putting a competition on has gone up that much? Why should the cost for the national be more? The hotel cost always have been cheapper on your own. They deals FIRST comes up with are so much more for less sometimes.

If the cost of getting a place like the GA dome is that much more then find every team pays the same that want to go. Don't say by paying more for the national the hotel cost will be less.

Let the entry fee for the first regional be the big cost then have the Nationals be a lot less. You are not getting parts, only a place to play. I would thinkt the cost of the parts would be much more.


So to do 1 regional and the National the entry fees would be $11,000. If FIRST does not think that is a lot of money then they better go back to the drawing board. You are talking about high schools. Yes there are companys out there that would love to help and pay but htose are becoming far and few.

I would like to here from teams that the mentor/teacher has been around for 10 or more years. these are the people that have put in the time and heart into FIRST. Becuase I here these other people talk about how hard it is and how much time they have spent, try doing that over ten years and still keep going. We always go through this hardship. about money. I almost didn't have a team becuase of money and how well we have gotten the word out. there are more teams with a 15 mile of our school that take up a lot of our resourses.


This is not the FIRST time they have raised the money and it will not be the last time. I just hope FIRST goes out and Makes the world know who FIRST is, so it would be easier to go out and get money.

[Steve W]

FIRST ran a deficit this year and no organization, including non-profit, should be running that way. The best senario is a break even budget. I believe that FIRST needes this money to cover expenses and allow for growth.

As for the cost of Championship going up, you must realize that a big portion of the early years was subsudized by Disney. They could not continue with their level of "sponsership" so we went to Houston and now Altlanta. These venues cost money.

Also not mentioned is the drayage costs, fields and development. I read earlier in someones post the cost of these items. BTB does not have all of these things to deal with. For the Wonderland event this week the cost to ship the field is $6,000.00 CDN. For Championships they had to ship 5 fields plus spare parts to Atlanta and then back to New Hampshire. These things are not cheap. You also need to take into account the cost to design and build the 5 fields and spare parts.

[Cory]

Here's another twist to the discussion...

What are YOU willing to pay to stay involved in FIRST Robotics?

Sean

I would be willing to pay that, and much much much more. FIRST is that important.

[Billfred]

There's one question, should there be a cap of how much money one team can recieve from their sponsors? And if sponsors are willing to give more money, should the money over the cap be given to FIRST and be evenly spread across to regionals and/or other FIRST expenses?

I'm going to take this idea and tweak it.

Suppose we ("we" being defined as either FIRST or the FIRST community) started the "pot." If a team has more money than they conceivably need (I'll even spot them building a nice cart with spinners on the wheels), then they can chip money into the pot on their own free will with no pressure. (I'm against guilt-tripping teams into chipping, since it is THEIR money, which they worked to get.)

So then if team 3.1415926 hits a really hard crunch (sponsor pulls out, head fundraiser gets sidelined, etc.), they then can apply for help from the pot, enough to get entered into the season, plus perhaps a few dollars to help build.

I guess the preference would be to have this as a boost (say $2000-3000), not as a full-on payment to get teams into the competition for a regional and such. I don't know how it'd work exactly, but if you know more about this, then feel free to run with it.

[Andy Baker]

First I like to say that FIRST did a great job in getting this out to the teams now so we can plan on it. This is what I can't understand. Why can a place like Bean town Bliz put on a great after market competition for only $250. The pits were better than UCF regionals. the thought of bringing in the robots like we did was the best I have ever seen at a competition.
...
If it is the cost of the kits that is going up then find lets pay more for that. but the cost of putting a competition on has gone up that much? Why should the cost for the national be more?
...
I would like to here from teams that the mentor/teacher has been around for 10 or more years. these are the people that have put in the time and heart into FIRST. Becuase I here these other people talk about how hard it is and how much time they have spent, try doing that over ten years and still keep going. We always go through this hardship. about money. I almost didn't have a team becuase of money and how well we have gotten the word out. there are more teams with a 15 mile of our school that take up a lot of our resourses.

This is not the FIRST time they have raised the money and it will not be the last time. I just hope FIRST goes out and Makes the world know who FIRST is, so it would be easier to go out and get money.

Here are a couple of thoughts:

It's not FIRST's job to "go out and makes the world know", it's ours. The teams are responsible for this. After being in FIRST for 13 years, our team has learned that. Teams who have been in FIRST for a long time should not think that they are entitled to handouts from FIRST. We veteran teams are the backbone of FIRST and we should be there, leading by example. We should not have this attitude that "FIRST owes us".

We are one of those teams who has a big sponsor who takes care of us well. Our students still fundraise (about $270 each last year), but we realize that we have a great sponsor.

There are various reasons why our sponsor sticks with us. I believe that one of the main reasons they support us so well is that our team represents them extremely well. While we compete hard, Delphi is always proud of our sportsmanship and grace. They see us helping other teams. When a FIRSTer is asked about the TechnoKats, they respond positively about the team and about Delphi. Our management seems to like that.

So, we have alterior motives for our "niceness". We want to keep our sponsor happy.

Whenever we attend a FIRST competition, we always remind the team that we are representing Kokomo High School, Delphi, Ivy Tech and the city of Kokomo. The team ALWAYS represents well. Even if we don't compete as well as we should, we realize that we are a team that others look up to and we need to put on a good showing. Other teams who have been around for many years have this same responsibility.

As for "why does Beantown Blitz only cost $250?" You are comparing apples and oranges here. Each field costs $40,000. BTB got it for only the cost of shipping. A travelling crew of experts setup and run the field and a/v system at each FIRST regional. This is not present at off-season events. This crew essentially trained those of us who run these off-season events in how to run the event. Also, there is no shipping and drayage costs at an off-season event like there are at a regular regional. Since regular regionals bring in experts (event managers, scorekeepers, head refs, etc.) to run their events efficiently, that adds to the costs. Again, this is not a cost at an off-season event.

Also, keep in mind that our entry fee is NOT going to run the event. Our team fees run FIRST. We pay the salaries, build the fields, pay for the facility, pay for game development, pay for stuff in the kit, and we pay for FIRST's operating expenses.

Regional costs are different. Regionals run on a budget from $150-$200,000 (I think). The difference between this cost and an off-season event's cost is large, but it is because of various reasons. Most of these reasons are derived from a directive of the FIRST Board of Directors (I am paraphrasing here, so bear with me). The Board says that "all FIRST competitions must be conducted consistently". Due to this, FIRST builds the fields, sends a crew out to set up the fields and a professionals a/v system, pays for "experts" to run the events, pays for high quality venues, and drayage/shipping issues.

A way to increase the # of competitions and decrease cost would be to give more attention to the non-official FIRST "scrimmages" that take place right before the ship date. If teams put on more of these events, other teams will be able to play at a lower cost.

Andy B.

[Steve Yasick]

The cost goes up...Where do I start?

I have been the teacher/fundraiser/coach for Zeeland for 9 years. Each year money is a problem. We raise our $20,000.00 (I hope) spend it all and start the next year at 0. Money is ALWAYS an issue for us. The price goes up so we will have to deal with it if we want to play.

The biggest problem I see with the increase is that it will slow the growth of FIRST. Mentors, how many times have you told a non-FIRST person what it costs to run a team and they say "What? Are you crazy"? When we try to grow teams in West Michigan I hate to tell them about the cost too early in the process. The high cost of the program is an easy excuse for someone to not start a team.

I know it costs money to run FIRST. I think the FIRST community can help cut some of the costs and I hope that FIRST (the organization) asks us for help. How can the Bean Town Blitz or the IRI run events and only charge a few hundred dollars for entry fees? We ran an event called "Unfinished Business" a few years ago, I know it takes tons of work to run a local event, but it is not impossible. These "smaller" events can help FIRST to figure out what the next decade will look like for the organization. Should we expect the regionals to be so big? Can we have weekend competitions that are more local and less expensive that will lead to state championships then national championships? Some big changes at the state level could make a big difference.

What about that kit of parts? Zeeland has tubs of wheels, motors, wire...etc that we have never used. I am sure that we can find a better way to do the kit of parts that will be fair (I hate that word) for all of us and cheaper for FIRST.

I will be at the mentor forum tonight, I hope we can talk about the cost issue and see how we can keep the program growing. I don't think that higher fees are the answer.

Take care
Steve Yasick

[Mike Norton]

It's not FIRST's job to "go out and makes the world know", it's ours.

There is a difference between me going out and Dean K. going out. When you have he CEO going out to spread the word people listen. Then it is up to the team to bring that to the attention of the local people and companys



We are one of those teams who has a big sponsor who takes care of us well. Our students still fundraise (about $270 each last year), but we realize that we have a great sponsor.


That is good that you have that. If you do not think other teams do the same thing about trying to keep the companies they all ready have you will be wrong. Sometimes you can do everything right but the companies just can't come up with that amount of money every year. our kids have to raise $500 each. I have to raise $40,000 each year


Regional costs are different. Regionals run on a budget from $150-$200,000 (I think). The difference between this cost and an off-season event's cost is large, but it is because of various reasons. Most of these reasons are derived from a directive of the FIRST Board of Directors (I am paraphrasing here, so bear with me). The Board says that "all FIRST competitions must be conducted consistently". Due to this, FIRST builds the fields, sends a crew out to set up the fields and a professionals a/v system, pays for "experts" to run the events, pays for high quality venues, and drayage/shipping issues

If I am not mistaken the Regionals are paid by the Sponsor venue.


If First is having problem paying for thing they should look to teams like yourself which had a field already made that FIRST could use. this would save money

[Marc P.]

What about that kit of parts? Zeeland has tubs of wheels, motors, wire...etc that we have never used. I am sure that we can find a better way to do the kit of parts that will be fair (I hate that word) for all of us and cheaper for FIRST.


This and the other post related to kit expenses got me thinking. We know there are a few required items, e.g. control system, speed controllers, motors, etc. But what if the rest of the kits were a-la-carte? It may be a logistical nightmare, but what if only core components were packaged for the "kit" at kickoff? Teams could then order parts as needed, like extra motors, pneumatics, sensors, and such. I know a few teams who have stockpiles of pneumatics, motors, optical sensors, gyros, etc. from previous years, unused but still paid for as part of the kit. Even if it's only a few hundred dollars saved, it will still help. I also know there's a bunch of issues with this sort of thing, but it's an idea which may be worth considering, especially to smaller, less funded teams who really need the money.

[Astronouth7303]

Aren't smaller teams generally newer and using more of the kit? If so, such an idea would have a reverse effect.

Cool idea, though. Have x amount of funds to pick stuff out? What if it was on site? That could be fun...

[Astronouth7303]

If First is having problem paying for thing they should look to teams like yourself which had a field already made that FIRST could use. this would save money

Except they are called practice fields for a reason.
The quality of these fields is not garunteed.
They probably don't have the tech intended for the game. People would have to come in and retro fit them with the field controlers, sensors, mechanisms, etc. This could be more costly than just shipping one in (and they would have to do it on about 15 fields)
FIRST still needs 5 fields for the championship.


Well, then, does this mean that Dave, Woodie, Dean, et. al. will be making a major change in the KOP for the 2004-2005 season? Does this mean that we will be seeing a major new component, electronic or something radical, which will make sweeping changes to the game? And FIRST needs this extra $1,000 to pay for it? (or maybe it costs $500 but they need more money to pay for overhead?)

That could very well be. I've heard rumors that FIRST may change the control system again, but common sense says that they just got this one and want to get some years out of it. So maybe they are adding something big. Could be the enhancement already came.

Did the developement of the C control system cost more than they thought? Would explain why it was so early.

[Eric O]

I may have missed this in the posts above, but no one bothered to mention the Additional Team Grants. The quote below is from the email being discussed in this thread:
"What are the additional team grants?
FIRST is creating an additional pool of $200,000 for team grants for teams in need to offset the challenge created by the increase in the registration fees. This will be in addition to the team grants offered through the FIRST Underserved Initiative and through sponsors such as NASA. We will communicate the parameters and procedures for applying for these new grants as soon as they are available."

If you want to know what FIRST is doing with this money, read the entire email and they tell us exactly what they are doing. If there are 1000 teams this year and each have to pay $1000 more then 1/5 of that money is going straight back to those teams who are in need.
Many people on this board complain that teams have a lot more money than others, and I agree that this is true. To me it looks like FIRST is once again listening and trying to even the playing field by charging everyone a larger fee, but giving some back to the teams who don’t have major sponsorship. I see it as a steal from the rich; give to the poor type of thing.

On the topic of paying out of pocket for FIRST participation I would prefer to see people not do it, but usually think of it more as an investment. After participating in FIRST for 5 years, I have paid out of pocket for travel to 4 nationals, 4 Regionals, and other off-season competitions. What have I gotten back from all of this? More than 10 times that value in scholarships and jobs (And that’s just the dollars). Although it is better to have sponsors investing in your future, at an extra $50 per person (20 student team), I would say it’s worth it.

Eric

[Andy Baker]

There is a difference between me going out and Dean K. going out. When you have he CEO going out to spread the word people listen. Then it is up to the team to bring that to the attention of the local people and companys

That is good that you have that. If you do not think other teams do the same thing about trying to keep the companies they all ready have you will be wrong. Sometimes you can do everything right but the companies just can't come up with that amount of money every year. our kids have to raise $500 each. I have to raise $40,000 each year

If First is having problem paying for thing they should look to teams like yourself which had a field already made that FIRST could use. this would save money

Like I said above, FIRST uses official fields in order to maintain consistency throughout all the regionals. This keeps things level and fair for all teams at each regional. As for our team, we did not build a field this year. We only had a partial field, just as many other teams did.

As for wanting Dean to go there are get sponsors for FIRST... HE ALREADY DOES THAT! If you EVER listen to Dean at ANY non-FIRST event, he is always talking about FIRST. You expect more? Also, the CEO's who are already involved in FIRST seem fairly committed to me.

My point is this: no one owes us a thing. We pay our entry fee and we sign up for this contest. If any one team went away, FIRST would go on fine without them. It is up to us to go out and get our own sponsorship and take care of ourselves. Also, teams who have been in FIRST a darn long time have an added burden of helping out other teams, not acting like they are entitled for benefits and breaks.

just an opinion,
Andy B.

[Billfred]

I'm pretty pressed to see that happening, but I bet there's a simpler solution, one you kinda see at regionals anyway. Wait a week or two after kickoff, then invite a bunch of teams for a big FIRST swap meet. You get rid of those extra kit parts that you know you won't use, but you get more of what you need. (Probably wouldn't have been bad to have some more window motors for us...we coulda used some spares for driving!)

And of course, there's always bringing back old stuff from prior kits that can still be used.

[Pierson]

There's one question, should there be a cap of how much money one team can recieve from their sponsors? And if sponsors are willing to give more money, should the money over the cap be given to FIRST and be evenly spread across to regionals and/or other FIRST expenses?


Wouldn’t it be rather hard to enforce this? Do you have a variable “capping” system based on the number of team members and mentors that each team has? How do you prove the real number of members and mentors? Besides sounding like a logistical nightmare to enforce, this sounds like an extreme version of the $3,500 cap, but it also sounds way too much like Communism, “Look… you guys have been too successful, we are taking your money away and are going to give it to some team that hasn’t worked as hard.”

Communism or welfare system. I don’t really know which this is.

So, I would say, no caps. But, what if a team was really successful? Then that team would be able to (if they wanted to) give out grants to other teams. And maybe the FIRST finance division would be happy to help the good-natured team. However, if I were that team, I would invest the money so that if they don’t raise enough money the next year, they don’t have a major financial problem.

[Hinkel Y.]

Wouldn’t it be rather hard to enforce this? Do you have a variable “capping” system based on the number of team members and mentors that each team has? How do you prove the real number of members and mentors? Besides sounding like a logistical nightmare to enforce, this sounds like an extreme version of the $3,500 cap, but it also sounds way too much like Communism, “Look… you guys have been too successful, we are taking your money away and are going to give it to some team that hasn’t worked as hard.”

With this, some teams may be unsuccessful at raising money. We have asked a company who shall remain nameless said they have sponsored a
team before, but they were not a good team (or something like that). And plus, the team might have relied on one main sponsor for all of their financial assets, then say one year, the company goes bankrupt and needs to pull the plug on their sponsorship. I'm not saying that the lower team should get all the money, but should be supplied with some just to stay alive.


Communism or welfare system. I don’t really know which this is.

So, I would say, no caps. But, what if a team was really successful? Then that team would be able to (if they wanted to) give out grants to other teams. And maybe the FIRST finance division would be happy to help the good-natured team. However, if I were that team, I would invest the money so that if they don’t raise enough money the next year, they don’t have a major financial problem.

By this, I meam a limit of say $100 000 for a season, and say you raise $200 000 and you could only "donate" $50 000 to FIRST. But we'll have to go with the team's gracious professionalism with this. But you do raise a good point about future planning...

[Pat Roche]

Hmm.. maybe a road trip to NH to get their unused returnables is in order...
I think I may already be taking a side trip up to NH during Battlecry, maybe I'll rent a U-Haul and rummage everybody's recycle bins up there.:p

There is no $0.05 deposit in NH, so getting these unused cans and bottles from residents will be rather simple.. :cool:

Unless you got family in Connecticut ;)

-Pat

[dez250]

to get this kinda rolling again, did anyone duscuss this at any of the team forums and get a good conversation rolling about the recent price increases, i would really lie to hear what other areas of the nation thinks about this? I mean are teams in one area having an easier time raising money so this isnt as bad of a problem as it may be in some financially striken areas, maybe like some parts of NYC?