Bosch Motors

[Andy Brockway]

Now that we know that the 2004 Bosch motors and transmissions will not be supplied for 2005, what do you think we will get?

I like the Dewalt motors supplied with the XRP trannsmission.

[Billfred]

I think that we will get another version of a Bosch motor...although with all of the stuff I've heard about Chief Delphi's robot, I'd be more than glad to get those DeWalt trannies.

...unless anyone's heard anything about Mr. Baker being contacted by FIRST.

[David Kelly]

I've heard something about Sears getting involved next season. Maybe something going on with Sears/ Craftsman... :confused:

[Elgin Clock]

A quick search on prices for drill motors only on toolpartsdirect.com yeils the following prices.

(All 12V Drills btw.)
Current Bosch Drill motor - $27

Potential new ones:
Skil - $27
Dewalt - $35
Black and Decker - $48
Makita - $46
Hitachi - $89


So, All drills are not created equally.

If cost is an issue, I don't see why they are changing to anything other than the current or the Skil brand motor.

Only time will tell.

[Swampdude]

Whatever they give us I hope they get the specs ready up front. Figures they'd change it now that we're selling kits for the old ones, and designs abound....
Hopefully we can still count on the CIM's, windows, globes and vans (we never use that seat motor). Although those window motor parts are hard to work with.
Seems like if they went through the trouble of making the motor mounts and worm transmission setups, they would keep a drill motor/transmission in the kit. So I doubt they'll drop it. I think the most important thing in the past has been getting the pinion gear info available from looking at the archives. Last year they did a good job with the power curves etc.

[Ted Boucher]

OK.... I was browsing the ifi robotics site and found this http://www.ifirobotics.com/victor-885-speed-controller-robots.htm the new Victor speed controller that runs at 24 volts. Then I looked at the tag and it says "innovation first victor 885" not "ifi robotics victor 885". This led me to believe that the FIRST might be switching over to 24 volts. Now first is selling all the 12 volt motors at the yard sale and this current email. Do you think that this could be true or not?

[Billfred]

If I read IFIRobotics' page on the 885 correctly, the 885 is a higher-current 883. I once emailed IFI about that controller, and they said that the 884 is what they plan on sticking in the kit next year.

Although the best comparison, IMHO, is head-to-head-to-head. The 883 could handle 60 amps continuous. The 884 only does 40, which is fine for FIRST purposes. The 885 does 120--which if memory serves me right is the breaker's limit on the FIRST robot. (Correct me if I'm wrong on that...it's been a while since I've seen Bob.)

Therefore, if we were to see an 885 in the kit next year, we'd also be seeing either a new or vastly upgraded electrical system. And this is assuming we stay at 12 volts. I severely doubt that we'll have a 24v robot next year. If we do, then we've just hit the next generation.

[greencactus3]

i doubt we'll go up to 24V. then everything will be faster, stronger, and will need to be more beefed up, and also the seat motors, window motors, etc which run on 12v will be harder to use. cars are 12v mostly... and the cost of each of the motors will go up.. i think... and that will mean we need 2 batteries.. or new 24v ones. which i doubt..

[Ryan F.]

This creates an interesting situation where the controversy of the pre-built transmission company will probably not be an issue. Without the knowledge of the motor, it's preetty difficult to build the transmission.

[sanddrag]

I own an 18V 1/2" Ryobi drill. I don't know if they make a 12V model but this thing is absolutely fantastic I haven't taken in apart yet but I've tried shifting it both up and down numerous times while running under lots of different rpms and it never complained even once. Seamless transition between gears even while runing at full speed and downshifting. Runs fast, smooth, and true. We have a Dewalt 14.4V 3/8" that we use to build robots and that thing is a piece of junk. I swear it's going to give out any day now. It wobbles and makes strange noises.

[Matt Reiland]

I buy all Dewalt tools and have found them (And Milwaukee) to be extremely reliable. Go to most job sites and you will see Dewalt, Milwaukee, and Makita in the hands of most of the builders. My experience has been that they are anything BUT junk. Maybe someone dropped yours too many times? Ryobi definitely has some great value for the money also.

[Peter Matteson]

My $0.02
I think most of you are looking at this the wrong way. I forsee very different motors next year. We are 12 volt because of commonality and availability of automotive parts so I'm fairly certain that won't change. I do however think the change will be to smaller and less powerful motors for a variety of reasons, primarily safety and leveling the field between vets and rookies. I think the most powerful motor we have next year won't be more than an FP. Well see in January I guess.
-Pete

[Greg Needel]

My $0.02
I think most of you are looking at this the wrong way. I forsee very different motors next year. We are 12 volt because of commonality and availability of automotive parts so I'm fairly certain that won't change. I do however think the change will be to smaller and less powerful motors for a variety of reasons, primarily safety and leveling the field between vets and rookies. I think the most powerful motor we have next year won't be more than an FP. Well see in January I guess.
-Pete


while i agree with you that first is conserened with safty i know that FIRST needs good coverage in the news and on tv so while smaller motors would make the game more of a challenge but nothing sells robotics like a rough and tumble match where a robot gets smashed



btw i heard there will be NO kit of parts this year for veteran teams
:ahh:

[Matt Reiland]

I put my money on the CIM motor still being in the kit, someone paid some money to get us a custom output shaft and I think it will stay around for a little while. Smaller motors and less powerful robots will be BORING in my opinion, a fast pace is what keeps people out there interested. If everything moves to smaller AND less powerful motors it will be a step in the wrong direction from my view. Also the size of the motors in the KOP should have no difference between a rookie team and a veteran. A veteran team with resources will use whatever is in the kit to the max abilities.

I hope FIRST keeps it at least at the level it is currently at if not even more powerful.

[Alan Anderson]

...We are 12 volt because of commonality and availability of automotive parts so I'm fairly certain that won't change...
Actually, the automobile industry is very interested in moving to higher voltage electrical systems. With the amount of power being used by an ever-increasing number of accessories, wire weight is becoming a real issue. Higher voltages permit the same power to be conveyed using lower current, so thinner wires are practical. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see 42-volt electrical systems becoming common in the next five to ten years.

[Peter Matteson]

Also the size of the motors in the KOP should have no difference between a rookie team and a veteran. A veteran team with resources will use whatever is in the kit to the max abilities.


Familiarity with the motors is what I meant. All new motors means we all have to figure out how to use them and their capabilities from scratch. I am for this because I want FIRST to throw us a curve ball this year.

[ahecht]

It looks like the reason FIRST is dropping the Bosch drills is that Bosch no longer makes a 1/2" 12V drill. I'm hoping they go with something like the DeWalt DC980KA (http://www.dewalt.com/us/products/tool_detail.asp?productID=8260) motor and transmission. Three speeds would be nice, as would a 4:1 ratio between high and low gears.

[coreyjon]

I for one would like to see the jump to a 24 volt electrical system...MORE POWER! :D and yea, with less current, the wire size can decrease, and we can have more weight for the bigger motors! or other functional devices.

[Billfred]

I for one would like to see the jump to a 24 volt electrical system...MORE POWER! :D and yea, with less current, the wire size can decrease, and we can have more weight for the bigger motors! or other functional devices.
This is true...however, consider this:

Which is lighter, an extra battery (or the difference between the current batteries and a 24v version) or the extra wire required to handle the current current?

[coreyjon]

This is true...however, consider this:

Which is lighter, an extra battery (or the difference between the current batteries and a 24v version) or the extra wire required to handle the current current?

ok ok, you got me. we probably wont be seeing any savings in weight going to a 24 volt system. :o but think about the extra power, and what we could do with it! :cool:

[Tom Bottiglieri]

btw i heard there will be NO kit of parts this year for veteran teams
:ahh:

then technically, you dont need to stick to what motors are in the KOP.

Electric car motor, here i come. :cool:

[Stephen Kowski]

The guy @ Bosch said that FIRST is getting some third party company to "design" them a motor....i don't know how credible it is, but it is worth mentioning

[phrontist]

btw i heard there will be NO kit of parts this year for veteran teams
:ahh:

Source? I'm really, really, interested where you heard that. If it were true it would be VERY interesting :cool:

[Tristan Lall]

The guy @ Bosch said that FIRST is getting some third party company to "design" them a motor....i don't know how credible it is, but it is worth mentioningThough I can't comment on the credibility of that source, that's more or less what seems to have happened with the CIM motor. In 2002 we had a version of that motor manufactured for Atwood. Subsequently, CIM supplied a FIRST-specific version using the same enclosure, but with a different shaft (and possibly slightly different internals).

[Stephen Kowski]

ahh....interesting

hopefully they will make the pinion standard instead of metric.....or what the heck just give us a shaft with a keyway on it.

[Elgin Clock]

Source? I'm really, really, interested where you heard that. If it were true it would be VERY interesting :cool:and I wonder why this stuff is in the rumor mill...

[Veselin Kolev]

The guy @ Bosch said that FIRST is getting some third party company to "design" them a motor....i don't know how credible it is, but it is worth mentioning

Errr... It would be a bit of a waste of money to have a company design a motor... I mean the CIM output isn't that much to do, especially if you're doing bulk. But design? That takes a bit of money to do. I don't know about you, but I would like it if the kit of parts would cost less this year, seeing as one of my teams is almost dead broke. Registration fees are hard enough to pay.

However if it's just modifying a known motor to be FIRST specific, thats not too bad. How about a keyed shaft? :D

[greencactus3]

then technically, you dont need to stick to what motors are in the KOP.

Electric car motor, here i come. :cool:
ehh.. id go with an electric airplane motor. like the so called solar powered HELIOS.

[Revolverx7]

I don't know, I work for Sears, I will ask one of my managers.

[Cory]

I don't know, I work for Sears, I will ask one of my managers.

You don't need to ask about drills... we won't have them this year.

FIRST (accidentally?) didn't encrypt the part of the manual that lists what motors FIRST will have available at events, and drills of any kind were'nt in there

[sanddrag]

You don't need to ask about drills... we won't have them this year.

FIRST (accidentally?) didn't encrypt the part of the manual that lists what motors FIRST will have available at events, and drills of any kind were'nt in there
Just because they won't have spares doesn't mean we won't get any.

[Bill Gold]

Just because they won't have spares doesn't mean we won't get any.
They liquidated their supply since the end of last year. It's a *really* good bet we won't get those 1/2" Drill Motors tomorrow. In fact, I'll bet you a 24-pack of coke (I don't do the Dew, it makes me go "ew" ;)) we won't get those drill motors. Any takers?

(I doubt there will be any takers)

[sanddrag]

They liquidated their supply since the end of last year. It's a *really* good bet we won't get those 1/2" Drill Motors tomorrow. In fact, I'll bet you a 24-pack of coke (I don't do the Dew, it makes me go "ew" ;)) we won't get those drill motors. Any takers?

(I doubt there will be any takers)I didn't mean the Bosch drill, we are not getting those, that is a fact. I just meant some drills, or other suitable replacements.

[Cory]

I didn't mean the Bosch drill, we are not getting those, that is a fact. I just meant some drills, or other suitable replacements.
Why wouldn't FIRST stock spares then?

As far as I can remember, for the 4 competitions I've seen, FIRST has had spares for every motor in the kit

[sanddrag]

Well, if that is the case then we are not getting a replacement. Or maybe there will be 4 CIMs. There is a Mabuchi motor listed. They make motors similar in size and spec to the Bosch Drill, but not gearboxes and I couldn't imagine FIRST doing that.

But something else that was kind of strange is that in section 7 of the manual all of the motors are written in the plural form except for the Fisher Price. Does this mean we are only getting one? Also, what is a Jideco Window motor? (have we had these in any previous years?) And also, I do not see a seat or Van door motor. :(

Perhaps this is the year of doing more with less?

[Cory]

Well, if that is the case then we are not getting a replacement. Or maybe there will be 4 CIMs. There is a Mabuchi motor listed. They make motors similar in size and spec to the Bosch Drill, but not gearboxes and I couldn't imagine FIRST doing that.

But something else that was kind of strange is that in section 7 of the manual all of the motors are written in the plural form except for the Fisher Price. Does this mean we are only getting one? Also, what is a Jideco Window motor? (have we had these in any previous years?) And also, I do not see a seat or Van door motor. :(

Perhaps this is the year of doing more with less?

Last years window motors were Nippon Denso, the previous years were Jideco.

The Van door motor is listed as the "Tiagen power sliding door motor"

[sanddrag]

Last years window motors were Nippon Denso, the previous years were Jideco.

The Van door motor is listed as the "Tiagen power sliding door motor"Thanks. I must have missed the Van door just skimming through the list. I'm glad we still have it. As for the window motors, it is odd that we get two different kinds. Also, the window motors of 2003 and 2004 were the same so the Jideco ones you speak of must have been from 2002.

[MikeJ675]

Most, if not all of us now know what motors are available.

I just hope that one day FIRST get's in touch with NPC Robotics http://www.npcrobotics.com/

Yes, the do affiliate themselves with combat robots(not the issue, so don't start that war)

They have a wide variety of high quality parts that are strong and should handle about anything we could throw at them.

A few highlights-
http://www.npcrobotics.com/products/viewcat.asp?cat=19&mode=gfx

http://www.npcrobotics.com/products/viewcat.asp?cat=20&mode=gfx

Yes, a lot of their motors are designed for 24 volts(some even take 72v with some work- http://www.npcrobotics.com/products/viewprod.asp?prod=41&cat=20&mode=gfx)

The gearbox/motor/wheel combo in the first product link seems fairly close to optimal for the direction the kits seem to be going.