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DUCKIE
31-12-2004, 12:51
I dont know... i think having the robots all work together in 2001 was a good idea... it really seperated FIRST from battlebots... and it certainly led to less severe robot/field damage durring matches. in 2002 the field got ripped up and in 2003 the "manipulatives" [bins] went faster than mountain dew durring build.

Katie Reynolds
31-12-2004, 12:52
btw, something is weird, correct english would be Pi, you, and I right?? :confused:This has already been discussed in this thread, FYI.

No - as long as a verb does not follow "Pi, you and me" it is correct. For example:

Pi, you and I went to the store. This is correct because you could break it into "Pi went to the store, you went to the store, and I went to the store." One wouldn't say, "me went to the store."

You will see something between Pi, You and Me. Using the same logic, you should be able to break this down into, "You will see something between Pi and You, Pi and Me, and You and Me."

There has been discussion about whether "Pi" is the first entity, "You" is the second, and "Me" is the third ... or whether "Pi" is the first, and "You and Me" is the second ... one would think if they were three seperate entities, it would correctly read:

"... something between Pi, you, and myself."

Of course, someone pointed out that "see" and "me" rhyme - but you would think if they were going for a rhyming scheme, the riddle would have been broken down like a rhyme ...

"Look closely and you will see,
Something between Pi, You and Me."

*shrug*

Steve W
31-12-2004, 12:57
OH, OH, another idea. What if you need to accomplish 3 things to get out? The clue , the center is out, could mean that you need to accomplish 3 tasks in order to get to the center to get more points at the end of the game.

OWWW my brain hurts. I got another week to stew and I'm already cooked.

Billfred
31-12-2004, 13:01
George and Johnny both caught the ball at 1st, tagged the man at 1st, then out raced the guy from 2nd to second.

They could have assured themselves the out by tossing the ball to the second basemen, but they held on for the chance at greater glory. This is the opposite of the time multiplier in 2001. Also in 2001 was the 4v0 alliance time.

I think there will be a multiplier back, but it will have to do with number to alliance partners participating. There are always a few different ways to go about the game. Last year it was hang or get balls. Very few could do both. I'm thinking of this as another way to try and level the playing field so that powerhouse teams can't carry the whole alliance and that specialty bots will be all important this year.

-Flat field.
-Cooperation required for maxing out points.

Wetzel
You've got a point about the unassistedness of the triple play. Maybe it'll be like the big balls in 2001, that gave your particular team a multiplier. Of course, doing it would be harder, but you'll get the greater glory from it.

However, the time multiplier is an interesting idea as well. Perhaps the robots have to do something in as close to 1:45 as possible without going over.

And if that does happen, we're getting Bob Barker to emcee one regional.

phrontist
31-12-2004, 13:34
You've got a point about the unassistedness of the triple play. Maybe it'll be like the big balls in 2001, that gave your particular team a multiplier. Of course, doing it would be harder, but you'll get the greater glory from it.

However, the time multiplier is an interesting idea as well. Perhaps the robots have to do something in as close to 1:45 as possible without going over.

And if that does happen, we're getting Bob Barker to emcee one regional.

And you've got to do it autonomously! :D

DUCKIE
31-12-2004, 13:51
Amethyst is a "stone of spirituality and contentment",$@# bestows stability, strength and perfect peace. It balances the energies of the physical, emotional and intellectual. Kind of appropriate I think.

Arefin Bari
31-12-2004, 13:51
Sorry, that was a bit confusing before, i mean like an infinite amount of times to score an object. Say passing an object from zone to zone scores you points, as many times as you can do so.

Corey... i think you brought up an Exelent point. Pi has infinite digit. what was there in FIRST that was infinite? any game, or any accidents?

edit - I was just talking to Kelly (kel D.) and was discussing the clue. she said maybe Amethyst (purple) means that we will have plexiglass which isnt going to be clear. (if this exact topic was brought up before in the thread i apologize).

Steve W
31-12-2004, 14:20
Corey... i think you brought up an Exelent point. Pi has infinite digit. what was there in FIRST that was infinite? any game, or any accidents?

edit - I was just talking to Kelly (kel D.) and was discussing the clue. she said maybe Amethyst (purple) means that we will have plexiglass which isnt going to be clear. (if this exact topic was brought up before in the thread i apologize).


As posted earlier, Pi when capitalized means product in math terms. The use of pi is for the calculations and is the infinite number.

The clue would the say, " If you look closely you will see something between 'the product', You and Me. "

Joel J
31-12-2004, 14:36
Amethyst is a "stone of spirituality and contentment",$@# bestows stability, strength and perfect peace. It balances the energies of the physical, emotional and intellectual. Kind of appropriate I think.
well, more related is the fact that it: allows one to see with an open, intuitive mind.

David Guzman
31-12-2004, 14:38
Maybe they will multiply the amount of points of the two aliances to get an overall score of the match, this points could help for seeding...

Maybe, just an idea. :cool:

David

Tim Delles
31-12-2004, 14:50
After much thought and many hours of sleeping on this and thinking about this hint i've come to one conclusion. First has given us a hint that is similar to last year, but related to a different topic, i think this hint refers to scoring methods and alliances more than field design or layout.
Yes it does tell you some of the layout in my opinion. I think by what it says that it will be as it wasin the 'old days', a hexagon field. We will once again have alliances in my opinion. and we will have many ways to score.
I know that this has been said in the thread previously but this is part of my idea that we will have a hexagonal field. They will but in 3 aliances, id like to think that each alliance will have 2 teams on it, but i'm not so sure with the threes, because obviously FIRST is liking threes. So does that mean its going to be a 1 V 1 V 1, or a 3 V 3 V 3, i don't know but that just sounds very choatic.
The Amethyst colored sun glasses i don't know refer to a blue between 2 alliances as much as it refers to a 3rd, 'neutral' alliance. My belief of the third alliance comes from the scoring factor. Amethyst can't be used as Red + Blue = Violet, because if you add the scores in qualifing it is okay, however you would run into trouble scoring the elemination matches because everyone would be getting the same score. which brings in if this is a hint to a blurred boundry does that mean its going to be just one big alliance as 2001 was, jeesh i hope not it wasn;t as fun or nearly enthusiastic for the kids as it has been. (well atleast not for me that is.)
I think all the threes refer to 3 ways to score. as far as i know since 2001 there have only been 3 ways to score in each game. 2004 you had small balls, big balls, and hanging. 2003 you had boxes, stacks, and hill. 2002 you had balls, goals, and goals and balls. 2001 you had the endzone, time, and balls. So i think this means once again it will be a three way scoring ability.
The something between Pi, You, Me. If you look closely you notice that the 'o' is in the center, however if you look more closely you will see that they are all SEPERATED by a comma. this leads me to believe once against that you are different from me, and pi is different from both you and me in terms of a boundary.
Also i think that there is going to be a neutral zone where no points can be scored or a place where robots can't go, but need to, or something like that.

thats my 2 cents.

Paradox1350
31-12-2004, 14:57
In going along with the Baseball theme:

Pi Shwerty (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=schwepi01)

Has less to do with John and George than the previous mentioned Pie, but this guy is named Pi.

Might be interesting to note that this year the Red Sox won the World Series this year (w00t!) after the CRUSHING defeat of the Yankess (Double-w00t!). Anyone that knows about baseball, especially around the Boston area, knows that there is a huge rivalry between Boston and the Yankess.

John and George played in Boston, Pi played for the Yankees.

Something between Pi, youandme? I have no idea, I'm just throwing this out there.

CmptrGk
31-12-2004, 15:06
In going along with the Baseball theme:

John and George played in Boston, Pi played for the Yankees.

Something between Pi, youandme? I have no idea, I'm just throwing this out there.
perhaps it is refrencing a geographical feature in between boston and new york

Dested
31-12-2004, 15:19
perhaps it is refrencing a geographical feature in between boston and new york

So the answer to the game is Pennsylvania? Eh....

Goobergunch
31-12-2004, 15:30
So the answer to the game is Pennsylvania? Eh....

Nah, we're south of both Boston and NYC. Hartford, maybe? ;)

Steve Horn
31-12-2004, 15:32
The something between Pi, You, Me. If you look closely you notice that the 'o' is in the center, however if you look more closely you will see that they are all SEPERATED by a comma. this leads me to believe once against that you are different from me, and pi is different from both you and me in terms of a boundary.


I looked at the email from FIRST and didn't see a comma between You and Me. If that is the case, then You and Me may be the something between Pi.

You and Me probably refer to the driver stations. Pi may refer to the playing field or something else FIRST has come up with. Probably is something else. ;)

Pat Roche
31-12-2004, 15:49
Sorry if I'm being repetitive I havent had time to rumage through the entire thread.

First
pi is equal to 180 degrees
Baseball diamond: the number of degrees from the pitchers mound is equal to pi
(ie half circle of sorts)

George Burns:Baseball player, refer to the previous description
Comedian who coincidently loved his liquer(spell?)
Ameyst...(cant spell) gem stone believed by the greeks to ward of the symptoms of drunkeness

Also could someone tell me what type of gems and such are used in lasers and infrared beacons.

"Look closely and you will see something between Pi, You and Me."

Well I get two things out of this.
It's quite expensive to change the field shape, so this tells me its possible to have the same shaped field AND there is something between the two driver stations.

Secondly I don't think that there will be a light sensor or anything in that middle because Infrared is beyond humans natural ability to see because of the light spectrum.

Pi is what has me stumped,

Just some thoughts to ponder

Swampdude
31-12-2004, 15:52
I think we need to keep some valid hints active in this assessment:

There's the new official hint (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=311503&postcount=1)

There's the one that begat the new official hint (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=305619&postcount=16)

There's the original done in the style of the past, as "the manual signature hint" (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=290106&postcount=32)

I'm certain that these 3 are the real deal.

Now that said, lets look at how 2 hexagonal fields fit on a 24' wide carpet arrangement in the previous space - see attachment

It helps to see things at scale. 1 Hexagonal field would likely be too large if it used more than 24' - and 1 small field doesn't seem enough. But you can see how 2 together look like glasses, and merged make amethyst (purple). These 2 fields make more than enough space for 3 drivers per side and room for human players stations as well. This would be a great way to move more teams through more matches - 6 at a time (keep in mind, all regionals have increased registrants). Though I think the usual size bots are a little too big, but Dave mentioned in this post (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=285152&postcount=21) a while back, he wanted to reduce the overall package. So I think we're building smaller. Also someone asked why I thought we were getting less motors. Well if we are going to a smaller package, and they sold off all the drill's after last season, maybe they'll leave us with the CIM, FP, globe, seat and van, since we're working in less space.

Lastly considering the dessert post, and now pi - I'm sticking with the thought of either donut (inner tube) game pieces (pi), or an actual pie shape. I can picture Human players standing in the middle there tossing the donuts on pipes at the center of each hex.

Karthik1
31-12-2004, 16:59
You know sometimes you get those things in your cereal. Well once I got this thing I don't know what its called but its like blue and red, and if you look at it through blue colored lenses then it filters the blue out and you can see the red writing well and if you do the same with red lenses then you can see blue writing. Could this have anything to do with Amethyst colored glasses and the human players role?

I think this thing that is hard to see has something to do with the human players role. Pi seems like its just a reference to a circle thats it, and John Neun and George Burns seems like it has to be a reference to baseball maybe something with the triple play.

Lil' Lavery
31-12-2004, 17:00
Oh the joy of trying to figure out the game just over a week ahead of time. :p
Red+Blue=purple
Blue is the color of water, red of fire. They wouldnt have fire in a FIRST game, so it must be a water game! :yikes:

Elgin Clock
31-12-2004, 17:21
Oh the joy of trying to figure out the game just over a week ahead of time. :p
Red+Blue=purple
Blue is the color of water, red of fire. They wouldnt have fire in a FIRST game, so it must be a water game! :yikes:
Water and Fire make steam.. Let's get this game already and go FULL STEAM AHEAD!!!

Reminds me of a picture of an Engineer that JVN posted a while ago! Choo Choo!!

Speaking of JVN, we have not heard from him yet, even though his (sorta) name is in the clue.. Odd..:ahh:

Joel J
31-12-2004, 17:22
I have some more information..

There is a book, The Amethyst Spectacles, that was written in 1944 (or 1946) by Francis Crane. It is a mystery and suspense book, but more importantly its in the Private Investigator (Pi) genre. Anyway, here is a quick summary of the book (saw it somewhere online): The intrusion of murder tears apart the tranquility of New Mexico's canyon ranch country, where Patrick and Jean Abbott live. This was the last place where the Abbotts expected to see death, and the fact that the victim was one of their friends makes the event doubly shocking. Beneath the seemingly carefree existence of their group, Patrick and Jean discover deep undercurrents of intrigue and jealousy. The principal clue to a surprising solution is a pair of spectacles, in frames of violet-blue shell resembling amethyst. The glasses had a terrifying habit of suddenly appearing in the most unexpected places. Main character: Patrick AbbottThat sets off a number of ideas in my mind.

1. Is there a connection in the year?
2. Those glasses are now seeming like the glasses from FLL.
3. The glasses appeared unexpectedly and in weird places. This is similar to how some people wanted autonomous mode, eh?
4. Pi: 2. any confused mixture; jumble.

This may go somewhere at some point, heh.

Rich Wong
31-12-2004, 17:37
I think we need to keep some valid hints active in this assessment:

There's the new official hint (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=311503&postcount=1)

There's the one that begat the new official hint (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=305619&postcount=16)

There's the original done in the style of the past, as "the manual signature hint" (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=290106&postcount=32)

I'm certain that these 3 are the real deal.

Here is one more "baseball reference" from Dave:

Tweet! Upon further consideration, the umpire has determined that this is an illegal pitch. Lucien has thrown us a spitball. The pitch is called as a "ball." There is a full count, and the runner will advance to first on the next ball.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=311168#post311168
AND don't forget this:
"The best Christmas gift I received -
A DVD version of Clint Eastwood in "Dirty Harry" - my family knows me so well! (I've watched it four times already! "You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?" - one of the best movie lines EVER!!!)
Are you sure you DIDN'T already get that?-dave"

Sparks333
31-12-2004, 17:48
this may be a huge coincidnce, but George Burns, in 1983, had a birdie average of 3.14 (Pi). Which Geroge Burns is this, the guy who plays golf or is the narrator in 'Solid Gold Cadillac'?

Sparks

dlavery
31-12-2004, 18:11
Nineteen pages of discusssion in just over 24 hours. This may just be the fastest-growing CD thread ever. Outstanding! It is really going to be fun right after kick-off and the unvieling of the game to read back through this thread and see who was right, who was close, and who was way, way, way wrong! :)

-dave

sanddrag
31-12-2004, 18:14
I don't know if this is of any significance, but there was a baseball player by the name of Pi at around the same time period as the other two. http://premium.si.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/all_time_stats/players/s/46775/

Rich Wong
31-12-2004, 18:27
Nineteen pages of discusssion in just over 24 hours. This may just be the fastest-growing CD thread ever. Outstanding! It is really going to be fun right after kick-off and the unvieling of the game to read back through this thread and see who was right, who was close, and who was way, way, way wrong! :)

-dave
Oh boy!
Another contest......

My bet is a BASBALL Field!
1. Pi is related to the Great Pyramids; the height is 1 while the sides are Pi/2 (that's the theory!)
2. Amethyst has a pyramid shape atomic structure
3. the base of the pyramid is square like a baseball diamond
4. The official clue references two baseball players on 1st base
5. From 1st base you must travel three more bases to score at home plate
:confused: (my brain is in pain... can't sleep must think.....)

Mr. Steve
31-12-2004, 18:36
to read back through this thread and see who was right, who was close, and who was way, way, way wrong! :)

Thereby implying somebody is on the right track so far.... :yikes:

Wetzel
31-12-2004, 18:38
Nineteen pages of discusssion in just over 24 hours. This may just be the fastest-growing CD thread ever. Outstanding! It is really going to be fun right after kick-off and the unvieling of the game to read back through this thread and see who was right, who was close, and who was way, way, way wrong! :)

-dave

I only see 10. Guess we need to try harder!


Wetzel

Arefin Bari
31-12-2004, 18:40
Nineteen pages of discusssion in just over 24 hours. This may just be the fastest-growing CD thread ever. Outstanding! It is really going to be fun right after kick-off and the unvieling of the game to read back through this thread and see who was right, who was close, and who was way, way, way wrong! :)

-dave


Dave, what else are you going to do make our 8 days of life MORE stressful? :ahh:

Sparks333
31-12-2004, 18:42
I betcha the FIRST officials in the know come in here from time to time and either gasp and think of how to make next year's clue harder or fall off their chair laughing.

Just a random thought.

Sparks

Swampdude
31-12-2004, 18:48
Nineteen pages of discusssion in just over 24 hours. This may just be the fastest-growing CD thread ever. Outstanding! It is really going to be fun right after kick-off and the unvieling of the game to read back through this thread and see who was right, who was close, and who was way, way, way wrong! :)

-dave

There it is again... 3!

Michael Leicht
31-12-2004, 18:58
would if this hint is just a small part of the game and has nothing to do with the field. maybe you get 3x the losers score. and you have the same point system.

Lil' Lavery
31-12-2004, 19:04
On a more serious note than my last post, maybe something is on the field as well inbetween Pi, You and Me. Could you and me be the 2(yes, im sticking with 2 for now) teams, and Pi be the triangle. In between the triangle, you, and me would sugest that the triangle would be off to the side(forming another triangle between the 2 player stations and it). The object we'd be looking for would be in the middle of those 3 points. Now the glasses come into play. Ultraviolet(purple-amethyst), and infrared are on opposit sides of the spectrum, and wearing purple glasses would filter out certain spectrums of light. Maybe that is what were looking for. A certain spectrum of light in between those points, coughIRcough.

Paradox1350
31-12-2004, 19:22
Except that filtering wouldn't matter; you would need some sort of camera to process the light and then output it onto a monitor. Our eyes cannot see IR light, or UV light. If you filter it, you are only filtering out the stuff that isn't it, but you aren't changing its wavelength, and thus it's not visible.

Now if FIRST wanted to hook up IR cameras and put monirtors in the driver's pit, that'd be swank. ^_^


By the way, anyone ever wonder if FIRST would make it so that we didn't decide where our bot started, but our opponents did? That wouldn't make the IR beacon in a random/changing spot, but it WOULD make the bot NEED to use some sort of poisitioning system (IR) to figure out where it is . . . although this has nothing to do with the clue . . .


As for Pi, what if the objects on the field were frisbees? I doubt it, since there's no easy way to throw it over the shielding (unless you are extremely good at hte hammer-toss) but FIRST has used all sorts of balls, boxes, doughnot-beanbag-thingies, and even a pleaying field with corn kernals as the turf. Frisbees would be fun, and not hte wierdest thing ever ^_^

phrontist
31-12-2004, 20:02
Except that filtering wouldn't matter; you would need some sort of camera to process the light and then output it onto a monitor. Our eyes cannot see IR light, or UV light. If you filter it, you are only filtering out the stuff that isn't it, but you aren't changing its wavelength, and thus it's not visible.

Now if FIRST wanted to hook up IR cameras and put monirtors in the driver's pit, that'd be swank. ^_^


By the way, anyone ever wonder if FIRST would make it so that we didn't decide where our bot started, but our opponents did? That wouldn't make the IR beacon in a random/changing spot, but it WOULD make the bot NEED to use some sort of poisitioning system (IR) to figure out where it is . . . although this has nothing to do with the clue . . .


As for Pi, what if the objects on the field were frisbees? I doubt it, since there's no easy way to throw it over the shielding (unless you are extremely good at hte hammer-toss) but FIRST has used all sorts of balls, boxes, doughnot-beanbag-thingies, and even a pleaying field with corn kernals as the turf. Frisbees would be fun, and not hte wierdest thing ever ^_^

Oh man. I they did that all of my hard work will have been for nothing. I just assumed that we could depend on a known starting position. How will I navigate! Ahhhhhh!

Tim Delles
31-12-2004, 21:30
In FIRST you can never assume anything to be, especially starting places. You can only assume things when FIRST directly tells you. (and sometimes you can't even think that to be fully true. jk :) )

phrontist
31-12-2004, 21:40
In FIRST you can never assume anything to be, especially starting places. You can only assume things when FIRST directly tells you. (and sometimes you can't even think that to be fully true. jk :) )

Well, with a good navigation system, your robot only has to know for sure where it is for a moment based on sensor data or axiomatic declaration in the game spec, then it can figure it out from their. I doubt FIRST would position our robots randomly realative to scoring objects, as it would make it too challenging for the vast majority of teams.

thoughtful
31-12-2004, 23:20
First of all some of this might already be posted so i apoligize if i am just repeating what you mgith have read. Here are my opinions

1. Amethyst is a hexagon shaped crystal, also optical filters of that kind are used to study UV rays. Seeing this i agree with the suggestions that the teams might be 3v3 or 2v2v2, and that IR guidance might play a greater role.

2. I dont know much about baseball, but given that the John Neun and george burns have 3 as a very common number i would say that the matches might be 3 minutes or alliances of 3.

3. I would like to mention that the value of Pi is 3.14 could this be hinting that the total time for a match will be 3 minutes and 15 seconds. Also Pi is 22/7 does that bring anything in mind, if it does please do post.

4. "Look closely and you will see something between Pi, You and Me". Pay close attention this might be refferring to the fact that "you and me" are between Pi. Which can mean that the robots are in a pyramid or triangle shaped area. Also the riddle mentions looking closely;hence there might be something which very hard to see or cant be seen through human eyes, Again this hints toward IR

My conclusion:

The alliances will be 3v3, the field will remain rectangular. Autonomous will have a greater role to play. There will be IR or other navigational guidance. Also i beleive there will be some items in the center that one has to gather most to make points. The multiplier will be back.

PS:- I would be laughing at myself once the game is unvieled

Matt Krass
01-01-2005, 00:12
3. I would like to mention that the value of Pi is 3.14 could this be hinting that the total time for a match will be 3 minutes and 15 seconds. Also Pi is 22/7 does that bring anything in mind, if it does please do post.

Hmm this makes sense, 15 seconds for autonomous and 3 minute matches, with 3v3 more teams can play thus matches can be longer.

sanddrag
01-01-2005, 00:24
Also Pi is 22/7 No it isn't.

Michael Leicht
01-01-2005, 00:27
this year is 2005

5-2=3

3 O no another 3

patTeam241
01-01-2005, 00:30
Just a couple of observations, and I'm sorry if I'm repeating someone.
-A field layout change is unlikely, the field still has to fit in approximately the same size area yet still provide ample play space.
-Someone commented on DOX (Delta Omnicron Xi) being the "FIRST Frat", the Omnicron and Xi are used by the hint (Somehow) leaving just Delta - or change.

Just some ideas that came to me after midnight. Don't know if they mean anything.

meaubry
01-01-2005, 10:31
Pi is the ratio of the circumferance to the diameter of a circle.
There are many websites established and dedicated to Pi - but, what if Pi stood for the other Beatle Paul? That would account for everyone except the one between John, George, and Paul - it only leaves RingO!

I doubt that we would have another hanging game, although hanging from rings would be interesting. So, if RingO is the clue - what if we had to pass something through the Ring, like a ball maybe? Sort of like Quiddatch (sp?) (from Harry Potter), except without the broomsticks.
Now, if we could only find that darn Golden Snitch? Dave?

Wetzel
01-01-2005, 11:45
As for Pi, what if the objects on the field were frisbees? I doubt it, since there's no easy way to throw it over the shielding (unless you are extremely good at hte hammer-toss)

I take it you are not a serious Ultimate Frisbee player. It would be easier to throw it upside down then to hammer it, depending on where it is going. And some venues have things hanging that would interfere with a hammer.
Don't discount something that you think can't be done.


Wetzel

Pin Man
01-01-2005, 11:50
hehehe frisbees would be intense... we have been wishing for them... but I doubt for our last year (as high school students) in FIRST that we will have them... But who knows... We could get lucky...

looneylin
01-01-2005, 13:15
i'm sry if i'm repeating anybody, but

mebbe the "look closely" part refers to some obstacle in the center of the field which needs to be located by using a sensor of some sort, so it's more mandatory that u need to use those sensors. this seems likely, i think, considering what they said last yr that teams will have to become more accustomed to using those sensors since they will be used in future games

Billfred
01-01-2005, 13:25
Well, I see a way.

Remember, the 2004 field hit its fifth year, so an overhaul seems likely. And you know how they had the ball chutes this year? Well, what's stopping FIRST from cutting a slit in the plexiglass such that a HP could send a frisbee through?

(Of course, there would be a stiff penalty for a robot breaking that plane.)

anna~marie
01-01-2005, 14:08
perhaps we need to look at the shape of Pi....π

my speculation would be either a pyramid like we've said, but has been done before and is therefore unlikely, or a pit/pool. not water, but perhaps of another item the robot has to fetch?

Koko Ed
01-01-2005, 14:14
This thread would probably make it to a thousand replies if it wasn't for the fact that kickoff is next Saturday.

Astronouth7303
01-01-2005, 14:22
perhaps we need to look at the shape of Pi....π

Really? How about a tunnel or a table? Maybe legs is a requirement this year. :ahh:

Maybe they mean the curly kind. How about a dance contenst. (Wouldn't that be an interesting year?)

Or maybe it's a big puzzle we have to solve, and they've quietly given us 2 extra weeks to do it. ;)

Pat McCarthy
01-01-2005, 14:30
Maybe they mean the curly kind. How about a dance contenst. (Wouldn't that be an interesting year?)
Robots playing DDR! That would get a large audience! :D j/k

Paradox1350
01-01-2005, 14:41
How long as the carpeting been used? This has nothing to do with the clue, really, but how likely is it that they'll change the turf that we'll have to drive on?

Steve Howland
01-01-2005, 14:42
This thread would probably make it to a thousand replies if it wasn't for the fact that kickoff is next Saturday.
Well...the hint has been out for 2 days and there are 7 days until kickoff. We have 300 replies, so at this rate there will be over 1000 replies by kickoff!

P.S. There have been many repeated ideas. If you intend for others to read your posts, please kindly read the ideas posted before yours. This is not meant as a attack on certain people, but it would save many people time (and CD server space) if you checked for similar ideas before posting.

Billfred
01-01-2005, 15:31
How long as the carpeting been used? This has nothing to do with the clue, really, but how likely is it that they'll change the turf that we'll have to drive on?
If memory serves me right (and if I'm wrong, correct me), FIRST has gone the carpet route every year since 1993. Only in 1992 did they use something else (cough)corn(cough)

As for the shape of pi, I think it'd be quite interesting to see how robots would get over that.

goliathdrakken
01-01-2005, 16:00
I think it is related to The Beatles, last year it was as simple as the song title, Stairway to Heaven. I wouldn't be surprised if it had to do with rings as some others said. I dont think the hint needs to be analized so much.

Addy
01-01-2005, 17:42
I think it is related to The Beatles, last year it was as simple as the song title, Stairway to Heaven. I wouldn't be surprised if it had to do with rings as some others said. I dont think the hint needs to be analized so much.

I don't know, the Beatles thing seems a bit iffy to me. Last year, like you said, it was clear, but this year all we're going on for the Beatles (correct me if I'm wrong, I may have missed something in the 300+ posts!) is just "John" and "George". If we had been given John and George, no last names, I would have agreed with you, but I think that this time, it's pretty clear that it's the baseball.

anna~marie
01-01-2005, 18:34
How long as the carpeting been used? This has nothing to do with the clue, really, but how likely is it that they'll change the turf that we'll have to drive on?
I seriously doubt a major change in flooring, as agreed. But if they did (doubtful) then many drivetrain systems would have to be reconfigured. Besides, how would they even choose what flooring?

Conor Ryan
01-01-2005, 18:45
i and a friend have found some intresting facts.

John Neun- Neun means Nine, could mean something

If that triple play they both had came against clevland this leads me to something else, the amethyst Glasses. Bono of U2 wheres those colored glasses all the time, and what do you know? Its Their inauguration year into the Rock and Roll hall of Fame in Cleveland this march on National Pi Day, (3/14)

here are his glasses, notice the amethyst color here (http://images.ireland.com/ newspaper/front/0701/bono.jpg)


now to find how it relates to the competiton

Ryan Dognaux
01-01-2005, 19:54
…so uppercase Pi is used as the “product” symbol eh?

Does this mean that there will be a multiplier in this game? Like the 2x ball from last year and the stacks from 2003

I'm definately agreeing here, I bet the score will be able to be multiplied somehow via doubler objects or possibly stopping the clock again early. I don't think there will be more the 4 teams per round this year, I'm just having a hard time trying to figure out where purple is coming in... possibly purple field objects. Oh who knows... can't wait to find out what the game is ^_^

Mr. A
01-01-2005, 21:52
Heres a thought.
The only way George Burns could see himself would be with a mirror or camera. Maybe a little webcam on the robot? Maybe the amethyst glasses have something to do with this. :cool:
Hmmmm

Max Lobovsky
01-01-2005, 22:25
I gave up trying to keep up with this thread at about post 150. Does anyone who has kept up care to summarize the ideas currently floating around? Thanks.

663.keith
01-01-2005, 22:47
I gave up trying to keep up with this thread at about post 150. Does anyone who has kept up care to summarize the ideas currently floating around? Thanks.

a summary of over 150 posts! :ahh: . Most people have given ideas as to what the clue means (go figure). Some claim that the clue has everything to do with the Beatles, and others argue that it is all about baseball. Many (ahem) unique ideas have been brought up. Everyone is frantically trying to figure out what the clue is before the kickoff. People have even come up with entire game designs including graphics!

now on to my own 'unique' thoughts

I think that if one looks back at the clue last year (stairway to heaven), it didn't have much to do with the game, a few small steps, and two ways to get up to a platform, not very much to do at all. The clue seemed to have been there just to wet our appetite, (for which I am very glad). I think that this years clue will be similar, and we will all smack our foreheads and go "OH!" when the game is revealed.

Personally I like the idea that the amethyst has something to do with the layout of the field, or some small aspect (such as different colored Plexiglas, or neutral zones that are purple in color). I love this clue, and I have lost much sleep over it! :D

OZ_341
02-01-2005, 00:03
It is certainly fun to speculate about the game. But, I have a question for our FIRST historians out there.

Has anyone ever guessed the game exactly (or come close)? Has anyone done this more than once?

Just curious.

Rickertsen2
02-01-2005, 00:35
While wearing Amethyst colored glasses, John Neun gave George Burns
the following riddle: "Look closely and you will see something
between Pi, You and Me."

There are some definate constraints as to the possible meaning of this clue that have not been mentioned.

Amethyst colored - I think that the addition of the word colored means that this part of the clue has more to do with the color of Amethyst than than the structure or any other attribute ot amethyst.

Look closely and you will see something
between Pi, You and Me - Secondly there is a bit of ambiguity with the sentence structure of the last part,"Look closely and you will see something between Pi, You and Me". This could be one of two things both of which have two different meanings. It could be listing 3 things that are seen when you look closely, "something between pie", "you" and "me". It could also mean that when you look closely, you see you and me between pi.

There has been alot of concentration on connections between the various things mentioned in the clue but very little attention to how they relate in the context of the clue. FIRST could have just given us a clue that read something like "John Neun, You, Glasses, Me, pi, Amethyst, Emerald, look closely,George Burns" but they didn't. The structure of the sentence is purposeful and there for a reason.

sanddrag
02-01-2005, 01:37
Can we get anything from this in Dave's latest post (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=312288&postcount=8")
Let's go off on a slight tangent while I throw a cautionary note in here. Pi is what makes circles, and Dave is talking about tangents. Hrmm. And then he says "throw" Hrmm. Baseballs, donuts, I don't know...

Scott L.
02-01-2005, 01:52
Glasses are made of 2 circular lenses connected by a Bridge.
6 sided crystal.

Maybe the game involves a bridge that moves in multiple (6) directions. (Like balanced on one central pivot)
:D


You Can Anything if You Put Your Mind to It.

Dr.Bot
02-01-2005, 10:17
I Googled John Neun, because the name seemed familiar.
There is a mysterious "John V. Neun" who has been mentioned for years in this forum. I don't know if this is a real person or an alias. I have a super slow connection this weekend, and haven't been able to research further. So "John Neun" might have two meanings, "George Burns" might have two meanings. Everything in the riddle can have multiple meanings. What does it all mean? Maybe the best solution to the game involves Group(Set) Theory, Fractal Geometry, and Topology. The game committee wants us to "DO THE MATH."


------



ChiefDelphi Forums - Another John Neun ... for real ?!?!
... Another John Neun ... for real ?!?! Just saw this on the main Forum page (see
attachment) ... ... Re: Another John Neun ... for real ?!?! Quote: ...
www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27430 - 101k - Cached - Similar pages

ChiefDelphi Forums - No official FIRST game hint yet??
... 12-06-2004, 03:23 PM. John Neun. Registered User. Team #0020 (Rocketeers). Team
Role: Engineer. Joined: Apr 2004 | Rookie: 2000 Location: Clifton Park, NY. Posts ...
www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=306230 - 101k - Cached - Similar pages
[ More results from www.chiefdelphi.com ]

Neun Family Genealogy Forum
... Jonas NEUN, Germany 1821- Ohio 1840 - George McIntosh 3/20/00: John or Benjamin
NEUN/NINE b late 1700PA - April Potts 12/06/99: Re ...
genforum.genealogy.com/neun/ - 18k - Cached - Similar pages

Johnny Neun Statistics - Baseball-Reference.com
... Johnny Neun John Henry Neun. Bats Both, Throws Left Weight 175 lb. ... Name and misspellings:
Johnny john johney johnnie johny jonnie jonny johhny Neun. ...
www.baseball-reference.com/n/neunjo01.shtml - 19k - Cached - Similar pages

--------------

PS I finally got my vanity plates. I am now California:

"DR*BOT"

MikeDubreuil
02-01-2005, 10:51
I Googled John Neun, because the name seemed familiar.
There is a mysterious "John V. Neun" who has been mentioned for years in this forum. I don't know if this is a real person or an alias. There is an actual person named John Vielkind-Neun who usually shortens his name to JVN (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/member.php?u=46). He is a mechanical engineering student at Clarkson University and is on their team, #229 Division by Zero.
There was much excitment when John's father, also named John Neun (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/member.php?u=7211) began posting on the forum. He is an engineer on team #20 The Rocketeers.

Of course, the question is: we all know Dave Lavery is on the game design comittee. The name John Neun would be known to most people on the forum and many in the FIRST community. He obviously picked that name to confuse us. Was he thinking of something in particular about John Neun, and specifically which CD poster; or was he thinking about Johhny Neun the baseball player?

Ted Boucher
02-01-2005, 11:31
Ok... it is kind of weird but I think that it might relate to one of the game guesses in this thread.

Innovation First still has not released their robot controller or operator interface for 2005. Could this mean that they made a major change to the controllers that might give away the 2005 game? I was thinking along the lines of a different radio setup for the 3 vs. 3 at competitions. This would solve the problem mentioned in this thread. If they basically kept the controller form last year then wouldn’t it they just release it?

Rickertsen2
02-01-2005, 12:45
Ok... it is kind of weird but I think that it might relate to one of the game guesses in this thread.

Innovation First still has not released their robot controller or operator interface for 2005. Could this mean that they made a major change to the controllers that might give away the 2005 game? I was thinking along the lines of a different radio setup for the 3 vs. 3 at competitions. This would solve the problem mentioned in this thread. If they basically kept the controller form last year then wouldn’t it they just release it?

The 2004 control sys setup is completely capable of 3v3. The only thing that they would have to change is the team color lights. That wouldn't be a major change at all.

Lil' Lavery
02-01-2005, 12:55
perhaps we need to look at the shape of Pi....<pi>



thats the shape of pi, not Pi. Capitilization matters in greek as well. And Pi means product, vs. pi meaning 3.14.....

Elgin Clock
02-01-2005, 13:16
Isn't the shape of pi meaning 3.14 in circle measuring terms, a straight line from the center of said circle to the diameter which relates to the number of times that straight line can be laid on top of the Diameter of the circle?

Tom Bottiglieri
02-01-2005, 13:21
a radius? lol

Elgin Clock
02-01-2005, 13:28
The 2004 control sys setup is completely capable of 3v3. The only thing that they would have to change is the team color lights. That wouldn't be a major change at all.http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32044

a radius? lol
No, more of a chord in pure center to diameter form, and a radius in a laid over the diameter sense..

anna~marie
02-01-2005, 13:45
What I am saying is that perhaps we need to *quit* thinking so much math and look only at the shape of the character Pi....

Elgin Clock
02-01-2005, 13:52
What I am saying is that perhaps we need to *quit* thinking so much math and look only at the shape of the character Pi....Ok...

http://unihedron.com/projects/pi/full_thumbnail.jpg

anna~marie
02-01-2005, 13:54
again, it could be a 3-d reference to the playing field...

Pin Man
02-01-2005, 14:00
again, it could be a 3-d reference to the playing field...
how? you mean like a table or something?

anna~marie
02-01-2005, 14:02
how? you mean like a table or something?
Like it could be showing depth of something - like ramp or table or even a lower pit area. The such.
But as we were saying earlier that things can have double meanings in clues, I'm not trashing the circular object idea.

Elgin Clock
02-01-2005, 14:02
again, it could be a 3-d reference to the playing field...
Yes, I agree.. The symbol for pie looks like a bridge between two points.

Maybe a field element like a bridge over an obstacle can be assumed? One can only guess.

For those who do like math *not me* here is an extensive research of pi.
http://www.jimloy.com/geometry/pi.htm

And look, it even has reference to pyramids for you pyramid theory buffs.
http://www.jimloy.com/pseudo/pyramid.htm

Pin Man
02-01-2005, 14:40
Like it could be showing depth of something - like ramp or table or even a lower pit area. The such.
But as we were saying earlier that things can have double meanings in clues, I'm not trashing the circular object idea.
OH OH OH!!! HOW ABOUT MULTIPLE FLOORS!??! That would rule!

sanddrag
02-01-2005, 15:17
Here is a past post of mine that you all may find insteresting. link (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=254943&postcount=35)

Hami1557
02-01-2005, 16:05
Here is a couple ideas:

1. What is there is a total new bot design what if FIRST has purchased hexpod kits from Pi Products and a total new starting point for team bots.

2. What if FIRST has their own bot (hexpod) with IR beacon mounted on it?thus the need for tinted glasses

3. First base men = FIRST

4. I totally agree 3x3.

5. Specific scoring objects for each team and other objects that both teams can score with?

My $.02
Mentor
1557 (12 volt bolt)

Kyle
02-01-2005, 16:20
I think that It would be great for FIRST to do something new and such as the hex Field or bot or whatever it may be and to do 3v3 because it would really level the field for rookie teams and very experienced vets so everyone has a much better chance. a team could have been around for 8 years or more but they would have the same amount of experience at building a bot that had to work on a hex Field or had to bridge a gap in someway as a rookie team would have to.

Elgin Clock
02-01-2005, 16:26
Here is a couple ideas:

1. What is there is a total new bot design what if FIRST has purchased hexpod kits from Pi Products and a total new starting point for team bots.

2. What if FIRST has their own bot (hexpod) with IR beacon mounted on it?thus the need for tinted glasses
1) What is Hexpod kits from Pi Products? Link?

2) Why would tinted glasses help you with an IR beacon?

Kyle
02-01-2005, 16:29
1) What is Hexpod kits from Pi Products? Link?

2) Why would tinted glasses help you with an IR beacon?
I think they meant the tinted glass that covers the IR sensor its not clear plastic its darkened (I think) so other light and signals wont inter fear with the intended signal as much.

anna~marie
02-01-2005, 16:30
first base?

henryBsick
02-01-2005, 16:44
first base?

John Neun and George Burns were two baseball players who have pulled unassisted triple plays. They both played first base and were in the official clue.

KimT
02-01-2005, 16:52
I have some more information..

There is a book, The Amethyst Spectacles, that was written in 1944 (or 1946) by Francis Crane. It is a mystery and suspense book, but more importantly its in the Private Investigator (Pi) genre. Anyway, here is a quick summary of the book (saw it somewhere online): That sets off a number of ideas in my mind.

1. Is there a connection in the year?
2. Those glasses are now seeming like the glasses from FLL.
3. The glasses appeared unexpectedly and in weird places. This is similar to how some people wanted autonomous mode, eh?
4. Pi: 2. any confused mixture; jumble.

This may go somewhere at some point, heh.


Now that's a neat idea! Having the autonomous mode at some unspecified time during the match to accomplish a task only accessible through autonomous would force everyone to use sensors - IR, light, sound, whatever - no more of that dead-reckonin' stuff our team, for one, uses every year. :)

Now, just for fun, I'm going to try to contrive a rediculous, surface level connection to the clue. :rolleyes:

While wearing Amethyst colored glasses, John Neun gave George Burns the
following riddle: "Look closely and you will see something between Pi, You
and Me."

IF:

1. "Pi" is interpreted as "the product" as stated in earlier posts
2. "The product" is assumed to indicate the end of a match (the product of the efforts)
3. The lack of a comma between "You and Me" is interpreted such that "You and Me" are between the beginning and the end of the match
4. "You and Me" indicates the connection between George Burns and John Neun
5. The connection is assumed to be the unassisted triple plays
6. "Unassisted" can be considered loosely synonymous with "autonomous" if "autonomous"'s definition is taken as "independent"

then it can be gathered that at some undefined point during the match, teams will have an opportunity to complete a task in autonomous mode, possibly with some relation to the "three" of the triple play.

~~**~~

WOW! That was fun! Give me another illogical point to argue! :D

anna~marie
02-01-2005, 17:02
Having the autonomous mode at some unspecified time during the match to accomplish a task only accessible through autonomous would force everyone to use sensors

is it just me or does that idea scare you silly?

Yan Wang
02-01-2005, 17:14
To all the people who believe in the Beatles reference, I've got it! What FIRST is trying to convey to us is that at regional events, the DJs will no longer play repetitive techno and pop music over and over and over and... but will instead culture us with Dave Lavery's extensive collection of the Beatles' works, as mentioned earlier by Lil Lavery.

... not that I'm saying the music is annoying sometimes :)

KimT
02-01-2005, 17:16
is it just me or does that idea scare you silly?


Honestly, I'm terrified! :eek: I mean, last year we barely even managed to make our robot MOVE during autonomous. Unfortunately, it has been emphasized over and over again that autonomous control is more similar to what most robots do in the real world, and I've heard that FIRST is moving more and more towards using autonomous. This seems like a logical step that could make autonomous control much more powerful without taking time or challenge away from the rest of the match.

This is coming soon, I think, whether or not it's this year, but it's my pet theory that this clue will have something to do with autonomous, though I can't really say why.

anna~marie
02-01-2005, 17:32
Friend of mine analyzed the quote and immediately thought of pie wedges....any chance?

NotaNerd
02-01-2005, 17:47
Just a few things I've noticed thus far:

1. Multiple floors, lowered control stations and a gigantic pyramid are all impractical because in order for them to support one robot (or more) would mean intense structural design. Sure, we all pitched in an extra $1000, but I'm pretty sure thats something known as economics. That extra $1000 isn't to cover new parts or a ridiculous skyscraper shaped field. That is so FIRST can get more money. Also, think about a multi story field or pyramid. At the end of a match, do you use a crane to get them down? Not likely, some venues won't allow it.

2. Another thought, George Burns is an actor who played God in a movie called "God." The game may be referencing to a scene or part from the movie.

patTeam241
02-01-2005, 17:52
Several times throughout the forum, IR has been mentioned in connection with the amethyst glasses. But any IR sensor wouldn't use amethyst, as it would only let through considerably shorter wavelengths (right?). Are the UV sensors out there, as those would work much better with amythest. Do they have any properties that might define the game?

phrontist
02-01-2005, 17:57
Several times throughout the forum, IR has been mentioned in connection with the amethyst glasses. But any IR sensor wouldn't use amethyst, as it would only let through considerably shorter wavelengths (right?). Are the UV sensors out there, as those would work much better with amythest. Do they have any properties that might define the game?

UV Paint playing feild! That would rule! Hmmm... Doesn't UV light damage the retinas if they're exposed to it too long? Oh, and all the drivers would have fabulous tans! But then there is the whole skin cancer thing.

Maybe not...

Rich Wong
02-01-2005, 18:10
*A night light just flicked on in my hibernating brain*

What if the field components are red & blue baseballs and containers are placed at each corner of a diamond shape pattern. The robot must deliver to each of the four containers their color baseballs.
Here is the twist, the red team scores one point if there is one red ball in each of the four containers. Therefore, the robot must run the baseball diamond pattern to fill each container. :yikes:

nicole839
02-01-2005, 18:34
As posted earlier, Pi when capitalized means product in math terms. The use of pi is for the calculations and is the infinite number.

The clue would the say, " If you look closely you will see something between 'the product', You and Me. "


no suer if this will hav been posted yet or not. i haven't finished reading all of the posts in this thread yet. but when you read it like that, it reaffirms the point that the product or scores will have something in common with you and i. so then red and blue with have to work together to accomplish at least a piece of their scores, maybe some sort of multiplier. :rolleyes:

hope this makes sense.

pakrat
02-01-2005, 18:34
I think its to keep the rhyme scheme:

Look closely and you will see
Something between Pi, You and Me."

'See' and 'me' rhyme.

I dont know if it has anything to do with the game clue however.


In The Hobbit, Gollum spoke in rhyming riddles....

Bcahn836
02-01-2005, 18:37
Im sorry if this has been posted before but i just noticed this one
Dave Post (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=311360&postcount=10)
And by looking at this John V Neun (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/member.php?u=46)
we can tell that Jonh V Neun's birthday is in Febuary. Whereas the John Neun baseball player was born in October as seen here (http://www.baseball-reference.com/n/neunjo01.shtml)

So i kinda think we are going in the wrong direction in thinking about baseball but maybe its just me..

It seems the more we look at this clue the stranger and stranger this thread gets and i don't think the post helped matters. LOL

Rich Wong
02-01-2005, 18:46
Wow, good find!
JVN birth month is Feb. and that bithstone is Amethyst. :yikes:

*JyNx*
02-01-2005, 18:50
maybe the score for the match is the midpoint between the 2 scores

663.keith
02-01-2005, 18:53
Im sorry if this has been posted before but i just noticed this one
Dave Post (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=311360&postcount=10)
And by looking at this John V Neun (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/member.php?u=46)
we can tell that Jonh V Neun's birthday is in Febuary. Whereas the John Neun baseball player was born in October as seen here (http://www.baseball-reference.com/n/neunjo01.shtml)

So i kinda think we are going in the wrong direction in thinking about baseball but maybe its just me..

It seems the more we look at this clue the stranger and stranger this thread gets and i don't think the post helped matters. LOL


wow, this changes a lot, good find!

Lil' Lavery
02-01-2005, 18:56
2) Why would tinted glasses help you with an IR beacon?
They wouldnt, I was just saying that the tinted glasses would alter the light your seeing, and that might be a clue to the light your looking for.

On another note, Pi has more to do with a circle than a triangle, so maybe its a circle we are supposed to find. Note how there's no comma between you and me. Grammatically you only use the comma before and if the "and" is being used to connect a statement of three or more objects. So if the pi cant be in there, because then youd need the comma before and. So grammatically it means, if you look between pi, you'll see you and me(or something along those lines). So if the pi represents a circle, you and me are in a circle.

MikeDubreuil
02-01-2005, 19:09
There's a lot of great ideas here but it's getting a little cluttered. Therefore, I decided to put all the ideas together that I thought were particularly important in analyzing the clue. I have tried to cite sources and added comment to some ideas.
While wearing Amethyst colored glasses, John Neun gave George Burns the following riddle: "Look closely and you will see something between Pi, You and Me." Amethyst



Amethyst, is more commonly characterized as the color purple. The primary colors red and blue when mixed together create purple. This is of course interesting because alliance colors usually are red and blue. Post (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=311518&postcount=8)
Amethyst is the 6th anniversary stone. There are two things interesting about the 6th anniversary. This year marks the 6th year since the 1999 game Double Trouble. Double Trouble was the first game FIRST introduced alliances and also the last time there was a major field dimension change. Post (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=311527&postcount=17)
It was noted that Dave Lavery saw something at the Science Museum of Virginia that made him think of this years game. At the time he made that comment there was a major exhibit on crystals and specifically hexagon shaped crystals. The hexagon might be referring to the shape of the playing field for the 1998 game Ladder Logic. Post (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=311556&postcount=44)
John Neun, George Burns


John Neun and George Burns, were both baseball players. They have the following in common: both completed unassisted triple plays, both were first basemen, and both accomplished their triple plays under similar circumstances. Post (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=311508&postcount=2)
John Lennon and George Harrison appear together on the album for the Beatle’s album Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band. Between George and John is a drum, which in the game clue represents Pi. Dave Lavery’s son confirmed that Dave is a Beatles fan and definitely would have that particular album. Post (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=311539&postcount=29)
It’s important to note that George Burns is also an actor who acted in a movie based on the Beatle’s album Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band. Post (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=311526&postcount=16)
Pi


When Pi is in uppercase it refers not to the ratio of circumference to diameter in a circle (3.14…), it’s used as the “product” symbol. Post (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=311541&postcount=31)
There was a thought that perhaps the Pi reference was not meant literally but figuratively- a 3D representation of the field based on what the Greek letter looks like. Perhaps, there might be a bridge that we need to cross between two teams. Post (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=312390&postcount=326)

Evan Austin
02-01-2005, 19:10
:confused: Here's a theory. Assuming there are only two alliances again, maybe there are three sets of goals (red, blue, and purple) and the purple goals are mutual goals in which both alliances must score in order to receive a score. The amount that each alliance scores in these purple goals could also work as a multiplier to their individual scores as well.

Paradox1350
02-01-2005, 19:12
The way we learned it in 6th grade, and the way I use it in my essays, is that yes, there should be a comma between the 'you' and the 'and'. So it should read, according to the rules we learend in grammar school, as:

"Pi, you, and me."


HOWEVER, everytime I'm reading a book, or an article, or a textbook, I'm CONSTANTLY seeing no second comma. Thus, according to the seemingly widely accepted standard, "Pi, you and me" is perfectly correct, also.


Thus, I'm not sure if we can get anything out of the lack of a comma.


I do find it very weird that there would be both a baseball, and a Beatles connection between the two names though. Either one of them is a coincidence, or both, or neither. Either way, this clue is frikken weird . . .

Elgin Clock
02-01-2005, 19:18
It was noted that Dave Lavery saw something at the Science Museum of Virginia that made him think of this years game. At the time he made that comment there was a major exhibit on crystals and specifically hexagon shaped crystals. The hexagon might be referring to the shape of the playing field for the 1998 game Ladder Logic. Post (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=311556&postcount=44)
Confirmed.. Sort of.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26438&highlight=Science+Museum+Virginia

tkwetzel
02-01-2005, 19:29
I think that these clues only drive people crazy and don't help at all because no one can accurately guess the whole game and design their robot before kickoff. So I have tried not to pay too much attention to this thread even though there are some interesting ideas. For those of you having fun, keep at it, you may actually figure something out before kickoff, but I think it is better to relax before kickoff and build season.

Edit: I can confirm that Dave Lavery stated at the 2004 NASA/VCU regional that something at the Virginia Science museum (where the team social was held) reminded him of or gave him an idea for the 2005 game. I was there when he stated that.

Elgin Clock
02-01-2005, 19:34
Tyler, I think of it this way.

If there was no clue, and no bombardment of the CD server(s) before the kickoff; then would the servers handle the strain at kickoff?

I treat this thread, and all the excitement of all the threads, as a big CD Server test.

Oh, and I guess a lot too about the game.. oh well.. :p

Conor Ryan
02-01-2005, 19:43
This is an offical game clue for the 2005 season from a FIRST e-mail blast on December 30, 2004. It is documented in this thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=32009). It has been brought into the Rumor Mill for discussion to keep the E-Mail Blast Archive in a more pure state...Any ideas?

ok i think i've figured a majority of it out. If you have noticed there are at least 2 signs that point to Cleveland:

George Burns and John Neun-Both had unassisted triple plays aggainst Cleveland whatever there name was before WW2

Amethyst Cololered Glasses- Who wears them? Elvis Costello, Bono of U2, Roy Orbison. One thing in common besides the fact they play Rock Music, they are all in or going in this year to the Rock and Roll hall of fame where is it? Cleveland.

This leads me to an idea of what the playing field is like the infamous "Mistake on the Lake" in Cleveland. do you know the design of the stadium? Its a horseshoe http://projectballpark.org/history/al/pics/cleve2.jpgoh it was called the mistake on the lake because of the really high winds coming off the lake and the really bad indian teams.

Note I believe this is where John Neun had his unassisted triple play here, george burns did it 9 years before it was built which was in 1932.

Thats the shape of the field, and inbetween the horse shoe is a big cylindrical figure, completing there is something between Pi, you, and me.

what do you think of my idea?

nicole839
02-01-2005, 19:46
First of all some of this might already be posted so i apoligize if i am just repeating what you mgith have read. Here are my opinions

1. Amethyst is a hexagon shaped crystal, also optical filters of that kind are used to study UV rays. Seeing this i agree with the suggestions that the teams might be 3v3 or 2v2v2, and that IR guidance might play a greater role.

2. I dont know much about baseball, but given that the John Neun and george burns have 3 as a very common number i would say that the matches might be 3 minutes or alliances of 3.

3. I would like to mention that the value of Pi is 3.14 could this be hinting that the total time for a match will be 3 minutes and 15 seconds. Also Pi is 22/7 does that bring anything in mind, if it does please do post.

4. "Look closely and you will see something between Pi, You and Me". Pay close attention this might be refferring to the fact that "you and me" are between Pi. Which can mean that the robots are in a pyramid or triangle shaped area. Also the riddle mentions looking closely;hence there might be something which very hard to see or cant be seen through human eyes, Again this hints toward IR

My conclusion:

The alliances will be 3v3, the field will remain rectangular. Autonomous will have a greater role to play. There will be IR or other navigational guidance. Also i beleive there will be some items in the center that one has to gather most to make points. The multiplier will be back.

PS:- I would be laughing at myself once the game is unvieled

if that were the case, then wouldn't it be:
"Look closely and you will see something between Pi; You and Me"

NewZealand
02-01-2005, 19:53
hey everybody here r my thoughts.......

what if in the automode there is an object in the center which has an ir beacon on it so a robot could retreive it for big pnts.(hmm maybe a pyramid, beanbag or yes horseshoe haha....hmmm) or u could go to some area that is randomly placed for pnts, also only found with IR. i think first wants mor focus on automode so they r goin 2 giv teams some incentive 2 havin automode

jus some thoughts okay adios

Joel J
02-01-2005, 19:57
if that were the case, then wouldn't it be:
"Look closely and you will see something between Pi; You and Me"Ok. What about the "between?" Between is supposed to be used for two items, and among for more than two.

Collmandoman
02-01-2005, 19:57
So we developed AI...
it figured out the clue ...already..
made itself accordingly
and is currently walking to the peachtree regional
if you find him ask him what the objectives are, we'd sure like to know
...
anyway

if anyone wants to play halo2 message me on aim at stealingshrimp =)
lets get a halo2 cd group together WOOT

Kyle
02-01-2005, 19:58
i have the 365 post for this thread, sorry i was amused about that for some reason. i cant wait to see how wrong or right we car on saturday

KimT
02-01-2005, 20:34
The way we learned it in 6th grade, and the way I use it in my essays, is that yes, there should be a comma between the 'you' and the 'and'. So it should read, according to the rules we learend in grammar school, as:

"Pi, you, and me."


HOWEVER, everytime I'm reading a book, or an article, or a textbook, I'm CONSTANTLY seeing no second comma. Thus, according to the seemingly widely accepted standard, "Pi, you and me" is perfectly correct, also.


Thus, I'm not sure if we can get anything out of the lack of a comma.


Let me just clear this up once and for all. BOTH forms with commas are acceptable. HOWEVER commas after each item is prefered, because of the other interpretations left open by there NOT being a comma.

In other words, it can STILL go either way without there being a grammer mistake. See here: http://www.rhlschool.com/eng2n35.htm

As for the other grammer question:

if that were the case, then wouldn't it be:
"Look closely and you will see something between Pi; You and Me"


NOPE! Semi colons are used to join complete clauses or lists in sentences with commas; for futher information, look here: http://www.uhv.edu/ac/grammar/semicolon.html

Yan Wang
02-01-2005, 20:44
Let me just clear this up once and for all. BOTH forms with commas are acceptable. HOWEVER commas after each item is prefered, because of the other interpretations left open by there NOT being a comma.

In other words, it can STILL go either way without there being a grammer mistake.

The use of a comma before "and" is a serial comma. Personally, I prefer this, but it's technically a matter of what style guide you use. In any case, in reference to the game clue, using a serial comma in this year's clue would've been incorrect.

The clue says: "between Pi, You and Me"

"Between" is used for two subjects and thus they are "Pi" and "You and Me". If you had a comma before the "and Me", the word "between" would need to have been replaced with "among". I don't seen anything left to intepretation in the clue other than its meaning. The grammar's fine.

On another note, I lived in Cleveland for five years, during the 95 & 97 World Series... GO INDIANS! And does anyone else agree that the baseball references probably were used this year due to the Red Sox? :) :)

anna~marie
02-01-2005, 21:13
There was a thought that perhaps the Pi reference was not meant literally but figuratively- a 3D representation of the field based on what the Greek letter looks like. Perhaps, there might be a bridge that we need to cross between two teams. font=Verdana]

[/font]
[/list]
Another thing noticed about the bridge ideal...glasses, when placed on their ends, look like a bridge...a bridge shared by red and blue?

As for the horseshoe shape....quite interesting, i like it, kinda.

lsmith243
02-01-2005, 22:24
I think peoples' ideas about it being the Beatles song is pretty good. Think about it. If it really was Led Zep last year (I wasn't around, so I wouldn't really know), then it makes sense that they'd continue on with another classic band... Sometimes it helps you see the picture clearer if you don't read too far into things... Just a thought...

-Lauren-

JulieB
02-01-2005, 22:26
who really knows what the game will all we can do is sit and twirl our thumbs until the 8th.
i hope for nothing with BALLS!

Karthik1
02-01-2005, 22:37
who really knows what the game will all we can do is sit and twirl our thumbs until the 8th.
i hope for nothing with BALLS!

Sorry to burst your bubble but with all these baseball references, baseballs seems like a likely scoring object.

Collmandoman
02-01-2005, 22:46
Sorry to burst your bubble but with all these baseball references, baseballs seems like a likely scoring object.
I'm not so sure about that.. they are fairly dense.. and if the human player is involved.. there will be no thrown baseballs.. maybe loading?
they can damage a robot very easily

sanddrag
02-01-2005, 23:30
Did anyone see this post (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=312585&postcount=19)?

just broaden your imagination and consider what might happen if the alliance structures are not symetrical.

If we know that the two weaker alliances will gang up and create an unfair 4 (2 + 2) robots vs 2 robots situation, then there is one very easy way to restore balance. Imagine what it might be like if the match were designed to have two (weaker) alliances of two robots each, and a third alliance of 3 stronger robots. A 2 vs 2 vs 3 structure could make things very interesting! The team scouts and strategists would have a field day with this one.

But, nah, that is way too complicated. FIRST would never do that to us... :rolleyes:

-dave

Steve W
02-01-2005, 23:37
They have a hard enough time now with the alliances. This time I believe that Dave is trying to throw a curve ball. WHAT, baseball again. HHHMMMMMM :confused:

Jay H 237
02-01-2005, 23:37
Remember, Dave may be giving us a red herring.

When it's right before kick-off, I'd trust what Dave says just as much as he'd trust allowing me to drive his rovers. ;)

sanddrag
02-01-2005, 23:39
When it's right before kick-off, I'd trust what Dave says just as much as he'd trust allowing me to drive his rovers. ;)But maybe his posts are actually clues and that is what he wants you to do.

Bharat Nain
02-01-2005, 23:42
Remember, Dave may be giving us a red herring.

When it's right before kick-off, I'd trust what Dave says just as much as he'd trust allowing me to drive his rovers. ;)
//in good humor
One day..one day... I am going to make my own rovers and then the almighty Dave Lavery can be jealous of me:mad:

But frankly I LOVE THOSE ROVERS and I am so jealous of Dave right now!!!!

Paradox1350
03-01-2005, 00:02
Dave may just be messing with us, but MAN 2v2v3 would be interesting.

Damian Manda
03-01-2005, 00:14
Finally finished reading this whole thread after three days.

I think the multiple mentions of three in the clue (triple play if you take the baseball theory and three subjects) indicate the presence of one of four options:
- 3v3 teams
- x3 Multiplier
- 3 minute match
- Putting 3 objects together = more points (like a stack)

The longer match doesn't seem practical, because with about 100 matches in the day, this is over an hour and a half longer of competition (unless they begin on Thursday!)

The baseball connection seems to strong to be ignored, especially considering the prior references to this by Dave Lavery. I see baseballs themselves as being too small for objects, but maybe a game involving stations/bases could came from this.

Their unassisted triple plays make me think of autonomous mode, but cant think of what would be between the end of the match (product/Pi) and autonomous (You and Me). Maybe this means that autonomous will be in the middle, but I fear that scenario as a programmer who never even got the IR to work last year. Even if not in this way, I see IR as playing a major role in this game.

The amethyst originally made me think of hexagonal fields, as previously mentioned, I think FIRST might be due for a change of field. Dave Lavery's post here (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=311360&postcount=10)makes me rethink this, maybe an amethyst will really be used (or is he trying to throw us off...it does only say "amethyst colored" in the clue) The lack of a low cost bill of materials may also indicate a major redesign of the field or some special element, as last year the only strange listing was the toilet flanges (see here (http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/2004/bom_lowcostfield.htm)). I did find that this was only sent out 5 days before the kickoff, a point which we have not reached this year. Maybe FIRST just hasn't had time to post this yet.

The Beatles connection seems too vague, I like the Cleveland connection better, since it relates to baseball and can be tied to the amethyst colored glasses anyways. Now what between Pi and Cleveland when looking through Cleveland?

I bet many of us (including me) are probing too far into the clue. Last year, the surface level elements were the only major clues (stairs and no shooting toward a bar). If Dave Lavery is still reading this thread, I would like to know how long you guys spent coming up with the clue, just to see how long you think about something that we can discuss for over 350 posts and ponder for a week.

Rich Wong
03-01-2005, 00:17
I have FIRST insomnia.... so here is another midnight S.W.A.G:

Imagine…
Your team, with 5 other teams, is called to the playing field and you and another team are given a purple card instead of a red or blue.

You do not know what side you are on, so you are now place in the middle of the field with another purple team. When the game starts the purple color is changed to red or blue and now you must defend or fight for your alliance.
The two blue teams and two red teams start on both ends but you and the other purple team are in the middle of a "cage" that is shaped like a “baseball” diamond OR a boxing ring. You must stay inside for the whole match. You pass or receive balls (assumed) to or from you Alliance for scoring. :confused: Possible? ... given all the clues so far.

Boxing gloves are optional.

Scott L.
03-01-2005, 00:36
Look closely and you will see something between Pi, you and me.

Maybe a team receives the average of the product of the 2 scores.
(blue score * red score)/2.
:D
Amethyst is a purple gem, and when red and blue are mixed, they form purple, which helps t6o support this theory

Jeremy
03-01-2005, 01:06
OK this is what i found out

George Burns was a big time comedian/actor: You know the guy with those big glasses and giant cigar

John Neun: all i found on this guy was he was an old baseball player from the REDS

Amethyst: is acutely a blueish violet i found this out because i looked it up in the dictionary

as far as the pi and the you and me part I have no clue

Dread250
03-01-2005, 06:39
Amethyst is used to prevent infared light from being emitted to IR and that will jave something to do with it the whole other part is prolly the same as everyone else has said with the hexagonal field but i think maybe IR signal jamming and things in that nature might play in just my 2 cents.

Aaron
03-01-2005, 08:07
I've got it! John Neun, George Burns, who was in a Beatles film. John and George, get it!

http://www.cjnetworks.com/~leis/album/beatles/pepper.jpg

George and John are the only too Beatles that have died

CyberWolf_22
03-01-2005, 08:23
Sense this is most likely the second year of the "FIRST Frenzy" games, in that FIRST draws game elements from prior years competitions. I think that they will start taking from other years competitions that were not used last year. Maybe there will be a teetering bridge across two sides of the playing field and maybe a pyramid shaped contraption to hang horseshoes or rings from like in hexagon havoc.

Peter Matteson
03-01-2005, 08:49
Haven't gotten through all the posts but:

1. St. Pepper the movie stars Peter Frampton, and the Bee Gees I belive, not the Beatles even though it's based on their album by the same name so strike those references.

2. There are 9 unassited triple plays in the history of baseball the most recent being two years ago and, usless fact, one of the more famous ones being exectued by John Valentin of the Boston Red Sox during Alex Rodriguez's first major league game, Seatle Mariners. This being said I think the names John Neun and George Burns have signifigance. For example a cigar shaped object?

3. The Pyramids of Giza: take their perimiter and divide it by their height, when they had cover stones and you get Pi. There fore I think there is a pyramid in the field or as a scoring object.

Pete

Anthony Towne
03-01-2005, 09:09
Maybe Pi refers to a circular field?

Jay5780
03-01-2005, 10:03
My prediction is at the bottom, but my reasoning comes first.

I think we're forgetting some of the things that have been said in past years about the evolution of the game's design...

1. The game needs to be easy to watch for the spectator who has no knowledge of the game and who can easily know who is winning.

2. Alliances have been a teaching tool, teaching us that in the real world sometimes you need to work with your competitors to better one another.

3. Programming and autonomous mode have become a major part of the game and if what Dave said is true, then IR will be BIG this year.

While wearing Amethyst colored glasses, John Neun gave George Burns the
following riddle: "Look closely and you will see something between Pi, You
and Me."

We need to look at the key parts of the hint...

1. Amethyst
Amethyst is a shade purple which is made of red and blue. Possibly the teams have to work as one large team to complete a task to get past whatever is "between" (See #4) them and Pi (See #2)

2. Pi (defined as: the ratio of the circumference to the diameter of a circle)
The goal perhaps is round or cylindrical is shape.

3. You and Me
This represents the two teams. John Neun and George Burns played on different baseball teams.

4. "Look closely and you will see something between Pi, You and Me."
An IR "invisible fence" between the teams and the goal.

5. The baseball tie-in
Too small for the spectator to see as the main scoring object.
Maybe a knock it off the pole type of thing from last year.

6. The Unassisted Triple Play tie-in
Autonomous mode. 3 tasks to complete.


So if your still reading this or skipped ahead here is my prediction.

There will be two teams of two competing on a rectangular field. The match will start with autonomous mode, one alliance member will be activated for the attempt at the "unassisted triple play". At the end of autonomous mode all the robots will be activated and will have to work with the competing alliance to get to a cylindrical or round goal blocked by the IR "invisible fence".

Hope you didn't all fall asleep or get lost reading this. I've been trying to write it while trying to work...

Have fun this year and don't let this hint get you all too stressed, you have 6+ weeks of stress and headaches ahead, but it is all worth it as many of you know.

JP_1163
03-01-2005, 10:03
Pi relates to a circle
Me can refer to mechanical energy
A circle of mechanical energy can be a spring
Amethyst is known for increases your ability to open to new ideas and help open the channels to your higher self.
So, somewhere in a circle is a spring that holds mechanical energy. This energy is tapped when you open yourself up to new and dynamic ideas.
Look out!

:rolleyes:

Steve W
03-01-2005, 10:26
[QUOTE=Jay5780
2. Pi (defined as: the ratio of the circumference to the diameter of a circle)
The goal perhaps is round or cylindrical is shape.

[/QUOTE]

As has been stated before :

pi is the ratio of the circumference to the diameter of a circle

Pi when capitalized means product.

There was a deliberate attempt to capitalize Pi which means there is no relationship with a circle. That doesn't mean there won't be but the clues from previous years have been meticulously written.

Madison
03-01-2005, 10:29
Oops.

dlavery
03-01-2005, 10:35
George Harrison is dead as well, making Ringo Starr the only living Beatle.


Gee, won't Paul McCartney be surprised! (and please, let's not go off on a "but everyone knows that 'Paul is dead' because he wasn't wearning shoes on the cover of the 'Abbey Road' album, and then there are all the clues on the cover of the 'Sgt Pepper' that confirmed it" tangent!)

-dave

Joe Matt
03-01-2005, 10:39
Gee, won't Paul McCartney be surprised! (and please, let's not go off on a "but everyone knows that 'Paul is dead' because he wasn't wearning shoes on the cover of the 'Abbey Road' album, and then there are all the clues on the cover of the 'Sgt Pepper' that confirmed it" tangent!)

-dave

Tangent! There it is again! :ahh:

Madison
03-01-2005, 11:05
Gee, won't Paul McCartney be surprised! (and please, let's not go off on a "but everyone knows that 'Paul is dead' because he wasn't wearning shoes on the cover of the 'Abbey Road' album, and then there are all the clues on the cover of the 'Sgt Pepper' that confirmed it" tangent!)

-dave

Well, crap. If you're reading this, sorry Paul. I really liked that song you did with Michael Jackson, "Say, Say, Say".

Steve Howland
03-01-2005, 11:14
Tangent! There it is again! :ahh:
It's a trick! We're getting too close to guessing some parts of the game so Dave keeps trying to throw us off with false hints! His putting it in plain view twice is unlike him - usually he will hide his hints embedded within an unrelated thread, not place it right in front of us. So we should concentrate on non-tangent related ideas...

Jay5780
03-01-2005, 11:17
As has been stated before :

pi is the ratio of the circumference to the diameter of a circle

Pi when capitalized means product.

There was a deliberate attempt to capitalize Pi which means there is no relationship with a circle. That doesn't mean there won't be but the clues from previous years have been meticulously written.

Good point let me revise what I said. Maybe Pi doesn't refer to a goal in the sense of cylindrical shape or roundness, maybe it refers to the scoring object. or if you read into the mathematical meaning of the word product it could be the multiplier.

Swampdude
03-01-2005, 11:42
I've just had revelation!

OK FIRST just unveiled a new logo

Think about the logo for a minute, it's got a circle (pi) "between" red (me) and blue (you) objects (triangle and square. To celebrate the new logo, they might have built a game around it! And it just so happens that I suggested a game that would do just that in the "you design the 2005 game (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=261537&postcount=2)" thread"!

Elgin Clock
03-01-2005, 12:00
Just a thought.. Has anyone looked at the new logo through some purple lenses?

Maybe the new logo is like one of those hidden eye images? :ahh:

anna~marie
03-01-2005, 22:29
4. "Look closely and you will see something between Pi, You and Me."
An IR "invisible fence" between the teams and the goal.


Perhaps in between the opposing teams there is some sort of "beacon" that blocks IR transmissions, etc. to the robot, forcing the use of sensors in the opponent's territory???

Ryan Foley
03-01-2005, 22:40
Notice that in baseball, there is one person on offense (batter) and 9 on defense (fielders).

This also ties in with daves post about the un-even aliances (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=312585&postcount=19).

Just a thought.

KimT
03-01-2005, 22:56
I've still been trying to figure out how the uneven alliances would work. Dave implied that the robots would already sort of be characterized as stronger or weaker. What I can understand is how this will be determined, and how scheduling would work to allow for this determination before the matches begin. In other words, how can it be determined which robots are strong or weak. OR! Maybe they'll simply put down seven teams per match and allow the teams to pick their own alliances.

Again, I just think this idea would be much to complicated to be put into place. The entire elimination tournament would have to be restructured to allow for the elimination, the way I see it. Does anyone have a better understanding of this?

Ryan Foley
03-01-2005, 23:02
I've still been trying to figure out how the uneven alliances would work. Dave implied that the robots would already sort of be characterized as stronger or weaker.

They wouldnt necessarily be characterized like that. It could just be 2 v 3 with the alliance of 2 having some sort of advantage.

Eliminations could just be alliances of 3. The alliances would use 2 or 3 bots each match depending on which side they are on.

Pi Is Exactly 3
03-01-2005, 23:06
No, I see what you're saying, KimT. That's pretty much what I thought when that idea went around. I can't see how it would work out.

Another thought. Maybe this new evolution of the FIRST logo could be a clue itself (without having to look through purple lenses, although that was a clever thought). Maybe the fact that they added depth to the logo can be a clue that a new depth will be added to the field. What comes to my mind would be the same pyramid in the middle of the field idea.

Just a thought.

MissInformation
03-01-2005, 23:38
Maybe I changed my mind about supporting 3. You know, Pi is the first two letters in the word Pimp...

Heidi

Collmandoman
04-01-2005, 00:13
weird thought~ I don't have the software or real knowledge to do so.. but you can place information within an image~ I doubt there is anything in it- but someone could check out the logo image and see if there is any data in it


only thinking this because 'look closely"

thoughtful
04-01-2005, 00:42
Hey,
I didnt think there would be any clue in the logo, and there wasnt :( n e ways i did put some hue & color filters on it and here are the results. Can u see somehting i didnt :eek:


Edit:- Sorry didnt know it violates rules, sorry for the trouble

TimCraig
04-01-2005, 02:58
Since this thing has been growing faster than I can read tonight, I'll just jump in here.

John Neun and George Burns are the only two major league first basemen to pull off an unassisted triple play. This has been presented previously.

The reference to "beween Pi, and you and me" hasn't been as thoroughly investigated.

Pi Schwert was also an "old time" baseball player (also mentioned by one message). Played 1914-1915 as a catcher.

Does this mean the game has some relationship to baseball and what can happen between the catcher and the first baseman?

Peter Matteson
04-01-2005, 07:33
Notice that in baseball, there is one person on offense (batter) and 9 on defense (fielders).

Or maybe the defensive team controls the scoring object like in baseball. Although, that might confuse the spectators.

snipelfritz
04-01-2005, 07:45
I have no idea if anyone said this yet, but John Neuns career batting average is .325 and George Burns' is .303. If you average the two numbers you end up with .314(pi times 1/10). Perhaps pi is actually between them. I don't know if this means anything though.

EDIT: Also, perhaps ametheist refers to a third alliance. A purple one.

Olde Bill
04-01-2005, 09:40
John Neun (properly Johnny Neun) and George Burns are the only 1st basemen to ever complete a triple play single handedly in major league baseball.

Pi is a term from the printing industry (look it up) and comma (that little thing between 'Pi, You and Me') is also a musical term.

Amethyst is crystallized quartz with colour from purple to violet (anyone watch CSI?).

Peter Matteson
04-01-2005, 10:19
Two things just occurred to me based on the repition of the Number three:

1. It's the number of Dale Earnhardt and Babe Ruth, Therefore this year's game will be called: First Frenzy: Nascar Baseball.

2. The scoring object will be triangular in shape.

Pete

Evan Austin
04-01-2005, 10:19
It's a trick! We're getting too close to guessing some parts of the game so Dave keeps trying to throw us off with false hints! His putting it in plain view twice is unlike him - usually he will hide his hints embedded within an unrelated thread, not place it right in front of us. So we should concentrate on non-tangent related ideas...

It could be that Dave is giving us a real hint here, but he is making it so obvious that we wouldn't give credibility to it. His "Head Games" are really giving me a headache!

Alexander McGee
04-01-2005, 10:33
As I sit here, reading this thread, I can't help but think about how much fun this must be for Dave and the guys at FIRST. I bet they are really finding it entertaining, as we are.

I'll see you all Saturday.

LightFrog
04-01-2005, 10:45
Amethyst... that makes me think purple...rain!

maybe prince will perform purple rain during the matches and the goal will be to see how many times you can change his name in 2 minutes. :] :] :]

Andy Grady
04-01-2005, 10:50
Here is a thought for you...

Going along with the unassisted triple play clue:

6 Robots on the field, 3 teams of 2 we will call them team A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, and C2. Large circular field with an IR sensor in the middle with some form of activation sensor. The round begins with teams A1, B1, and C1 active. A2, B2, and C2 are disabled. Autonomous mode as always begins in the first 15 seconds of the round. The objective...the active robots need to try to get to the center of the field to activate the sensor to enable their teamate. Once activated, the alliance partner is fully functional, non autonomous...even if its still in the initial 15 seconds of autonomous mode. If you do not make it to the center in 15 seconds, your partner is held disabled for another 15 seconds...or possibly just until you can manually drive to the center to activate them....its an unassisted triple play.

Imagine how cool that would make things. The advantage of being able to charge to the center in such a short amount of time would mean your alliance would get that much more non-autonomous free time. If you don't...that much more difficult for you to come back.

I'm still thinking there is a barrier in the game, but I kinda hope its something like this instead.

-Andy Grady

Tim Delles
04-01-2005, 12:04
i don't know if this means much but the last time that the Red Sox had a team captain was the same year that George Burns turned in the unassisted triple play. I couldn't find who was the last captain for the Tigers but if someone knows what year it is let us know. i'm not sure if this is any help but i thought it could be.

Squirrelrock
04-01-2005, 12:14
Wait-a-minute...


(60 seconds later)
Looking at the past year's clue, and how little it actually told us about the game, then they're probably just telling us that we are going to be using balls with something in the middle. Maybe the balls have a U on one side and a me on the other side :rolleyes: . riiiiiiight.

neways, either just give up. ooor not. "the choice is yours, don't be late."


--------------
Now, al we need is lyrics, so I started some for you, Dave :) .

Elgin Clock
04-01-2005, 12:34
Now, all we need is lyrics, so I started some for you, Dave :) .

Yeah.. seriously, I think I liked song lyrics better as a hint than what we got this year.. whatever reference it has. :rolleyes:

psychoCHIPMUNKK
04-01-2005, 12:44
Shouldn't the bill of materials be out by now? Maybe they're keeping somthing secret. Or they're behind in posting. Or i just havn't seen it yet. :confused:

Peter Matteson
04-01-2005, 12:53
Shouldn't the bill of materials be out by now? Maybe they're keeping somthing secret. Or they're behind in posting. Or i just havn't seen it yet. :confused:

Maybe they want to make sure:

1.) The field design is set, last year the lip to retain the balls in the coral was added the night before kickoff.

2.) They have it correct and have adequete prints. Last year the prints and BOM released at the kickoff had several errors. I would rather they delay it a day or two after the kickoff and hve it correct the first time.

3.) They want us to go crazy. I remember seeing last year field BOM and saying, "Are we building a half pipe?"

Leo M
04-01-2005, 12:56
Amethyst Contrast Enhancement (A.C.E.) lenses were developed to improve discrimination between different colored objects on flight instrument panels.

Will we be 'looking closely' for different colored objects, perhaps in autonomous (unassisted) mode? Is Dave's long association with aviation-related subjects coming through here?

Or are they just jerking us around for the fun of it??

Elgin Clock
04-01-2005, 12:57
Shouldn't the bill of materials be out by now? Maybe they're keeping somthing secret. Or they're behind in posting. Or i just havn't seen it yet. :confused:
Neither that, nor the specs for the 2005 Innovation FIRST control system is out yet..

Pretty odd.. eh?

jdhawg
04-01-2005, 13:08
Neither that, nor the specs for the 2005 Innovation FIRST control system is out yet..

Pretty odd.. eh?

OR........ They are going to make us use the same controller from last year. IFI saves costs on the design of a new control system, and FIRST gets a better deal on them.

Tim Delles
04-01-2005, 13:54
Okay so here is where i stand.

We will have 2 alliances with three team members per alliance. It will be held in a hexagonal field. It will have some kind of disk or circular object to score. possibly one team controls the object or objects and is scored on how long they hold on to it. idk.

BillCloyes
04-01-2005, 15:53
Neither that, nor the specs for the 2005 Innovation FIRST control system is out yet.. Pretty odd.. eh?

I think that its more obvious that they have not yet announced any major changes to the FIRST control system.

Last season was by no means the norm with the release of an entirely new control system, especially the different programming language. They had to give teams a heads up (and that was only really with the use of the edubo- robovation thing)

the controller will be the same as last year
my $.02

BillP
04-01-2005, 16:33
Look at this bloody album cover people! John Lennon (Neun), known for his rosy specs, and George Harrison (Burns) have a drum between them. A circle! Pi! Muhahahaha! George Burns was in the movie the beatles made about this album. This makes perfect sense. Everything is coming together.

Pi - The Drum
You - George
Me - John

Forms a triangle!!!!
In the center of which is something they are holding!

What are they holding?!

UPDATE: They're all musical instruments. What does that mean? The trumpet seems closest to the center. Trumpets are used to wake people up. Maybe waking up is leaving auto mode. Whatever the case, I'm positive Lavery was indicating this album cover. It's just so like him. First Led Zep, now the Fab Four. And hey, he mentioned the fab four in another clue! Let me find it.

Maybe not what they are holding! Between John, George and the Drum (pi) are Paul and Ringo. I don't know about Paul, but maybe the game has something to do with RINGS!

Or did someone already mention that?

Dantarion
04-01-2005, 17:36
Hm....this is all very interesting....although it seems like its going to end up much more simple than this....

After they release what it is, we are going to laugh at these guesses, unless someone actually guesses right!

craigcd
04-01-2005, 18:58
Don't know if someone has posted this yet. The unassisted triple plays were completed when the first baseman touched second base.

Melissa Nute
04-01-2005, 19:42
Looking at the past year's clue, and how little it actually told us about the game, then they're probably just telling us that we are going to be using balls with something in the middle. Maybe the balls have a U on one side and a me on the other side :rolleyes: . riiiiiiight.

Everyone is thinking that its going to be baseballs...how about baseball bats? These would be harder to handle than balls, thus providing more of a challenge.

Kyle
04-01-2005, 19:51
Everyone is thinking that its going to be baseballs...how about baseball bats? These would be harder to handle than balls, thus providing more of a challenge.

the bats could be really harmfull to other robots. and i can see somehow the game being described like battlebots and that would be really bad. I know every time i talk about FIRST i have to talk about how much better we are then battlebots. I think FIRST is going to try to stay to things that are mostly non harmfull, execpt the bins, but that would be really really cool to have to get bats or use them in someway.


my 2 cents

WildEmerica
04-01-2005, 19:53
It is my extravagant hypothesis that the purple gem is relating to people who generally wear rings and such items that have gems on them. The ring is in such a fashion that it is circular in nature. This circle in conjunction with cycles refers to a continuous loop in the programming. With loops established as an important entity, the field must thus be created in the shaped curvatures of an enormous donut. Although, the center circle, often referred to by high ranked historians as the 'donut hole', is not in the shape of a circle. Yes that is right, FIRST is trying to through us off with a doughnut hole not in a typical design, but rather we must look further into the riddle. The pi situation is not only that of a tasty cherry pie that can be eaten through la bouche. A pie is constructed in a pan in which you can find the circumference by applying a method known as the "angle referencing technique". You simply take two triangles, most usefully the George burns triangle and the John Neun triangle, and add up the sum of the angles you get 360 degrees. With a circle, there is 360 degrees of rotation and with the "angle referencing technique" giving us 360 degrees as well, we can approach the assumption that there will be a triangular donut hole. So now we have a large circular field perimeter and a triangle in the middle. FIRST, I am on to you.
The gem is also known as a purple type of stone that, when light is shone through it, the light is magically transformed into purple. Have you ever mixed red with blue, I bet not, but it becomes purple as well! With a blue alliance and a red alliance, mixing them would cause a purplish tint. The game must some how include some sort of working together between the alliances. What that task is exactly, well, FIRST made it quite clear. If it won’t for my vast knowledge in baseball, we would not be blessed with knowing that George Burns and John Neun are the only players to have completed a triple play. This is not to be looked to far into, overanalyzes can get you nowhere. Thus, to compete a purple task, both alliances must go to the baseball field, tangent to the circle field, and complete a triple play. Ha, FIRST, you can't get me.
:confused: If this is your reaction to my hypothesis, then I am sorry for my congruently advanced knowledge of FIRST robotics riddles. I have no choice but to leave you with this simple summary.
In summary of my life long career of studying FIRST, there will be a circular ring with some sort of triangle in the middle where you can complete a task that involves one robot from each alliance partner to achieve extra points.

Design006
04-01-2005, 20:12
To be honest, I have discussed the hint with teammates and read the forum. I did not want to think toooo much in to the game because then I knew I would loose sight of it being a game. Here is what I have come up with.

Six sided prism. Maybe finding something on the field. Three "things", either moved, or placed somewhere. Human players must throw something on to the field as last year.

The things I have listed seem pretty certian. I have some other theories also: I like the idea of something being inside some type of a pyramid; I have seen a lot of beacons, maybe it could be the key to the game, something. Hexagonal shaped playing field could be it also. OR even!!!!!!!!!!!!! HAVING SOME TYPE OF PYRAMID WHICH ENCOMPASSES THE PLAYING FIELD THAT EVERYONE HAS TO LOOK THROUGH TO EVEN SEE THE PLAYING FIELD! THEN! three of something must be placed somewhere. Or three triggers must be turned on.... also, I believe hanging will come back this year!

Thanks for reading! Good luck to everyone's guesses! Good luck during the six weeks also.

Grant

Kyle
04-01-2005, 20:19
OR even!!!!!!!!!!!!! HAVING SOME TYPE OF PYRAMID WHICH ENCOMPASSES THE PLAYING FIELD THAT EVERYONE HAS TO LOOK THROUGH TO EVEN SEE THE PLAYING FIELD! THEN! three of something must be placed somewhere. Or three triggers must be turned on.... also, I believe hanging will come back this year!

Thanks for reading! Good luck to everyone's guesses! Good luck during the six weeks also.

Grant
that would be really cool to have a pyramid shape covering the top of the Field made plexi glass or something so people can see though it but still have it interact with the robots like them having to grab something in the top of it or hit things on the sides or something that would be really cool.

Paradox1350
04-01-2005, 20:28
A plexiglass encasement of the field would mean that a LOT of stuff would be flying EVERYWHERE. That would be both hectic and awesome.

Anyway, they may have hanging this year, again, but I doubt the will do it in nearly the same way as last year. Why? Because all the veteran teams will have a HUGE advantage over rookies in hanging. I know our team would just take the arm off our old bot and use it again.

Now, if they made the bar a few feet higher, that would pose a challenge.

But they wouldn't do something the same way two years in a row.

Kyle
04-01-2005, 20:31
A plexiglass encasement of the field would mean that a LOT of stuff would be flying EVERYWHERE. That would be both hectic and awesome.

Anyway, they may have hanging this year, again, but I doubt the will do it in nearly the same way as last year. Why? Because all the veteran teams will have a HUGE advantage over rookies in hanging. I know our team would just take the arm off our old bot and use it again.

Now, if they made the bar a few feet higher, that would pose a challenge.

But they wouldn't do something the same way two years in a row.
dont you mean that your team would creat a arm that is very much like your lastyears bot that way you wont be breaking any rules about pre-kickoff fab of parts? :)

Pin Man
04-01-2005, 20:33
I don't know... We may be looking too big... Look at last year's hint... Stairway to Heaven... Look at the significance of the stairs... They were little 2" mini steps... Some are looking at this clue and trying to figure out the whole game...
I still go with this... I believe 1. auto mode will be big and 2. 3vs 3 alliances... I could be completely wrong though...

Steve W
04-01-2005, 20:53
Baseballs are unlikely but what about whiffle balls??????

Paradox1350
04-01-2005, 20:55
Wiffle balls are WAY too easy to break. If you think Stack Attack was bad, then maybe we should try a game with Wiffle Balls to show that it could be WAY worse ^_^

Petey
04-01-2005, 21:19
Keeping in mind that there is a good chance we are all way, way off, here's my 2 pennies.

It seems to me that all interpretations point towards three. Three teams, two alliances of three teams each, three alliances of two teams each. Bottom line is this:
I think we can expect to see a new team format, even though I doubt we will go without alliances.

The more I hear about three--and the hexagonal connection of amethyst--the more I think we're going away from the field that has been in play the last two years. I've not been with FIRST for longer than that time, but it would not surprise me if we went to a triangular, hexagonal, or--and I don't think I've seen anyone else mention this, which is surprising, given the amount of baseball stuff gloating around--a diamond. A diamond, after all, can be comprised of two triangular shapes, which would hint back to two teams again.

The field will not be circular, it is safe to say, because
A) Where do you put the teams?
B) It would be very, very difficult for a team to recreate such a field.

Point B should be taken into account by everyone who is saying BUT WHAT ABOUT THE GIANT PLEXIGLASS THINGY!. Remember: these fields are, traditionally, buildable to one degree or another.

I like the point of whoever said Pi as a symbol for a bridge. But I wonder, if we're going that far, why not look at the shapes of you and me as well? Will it be between those three? So, perhaps, a ditch?

I'd love to see baseballs being involved in the human player element, but I agree with whoever it was that said baseballs are too dangerous for this environment. As an ex-player and current aficionado, I agree sadly and totally.

--Petey

snipelfritz
04-01-2005, 21:57
notice the clue says ametheist colored glasses. It says nothing about actual ametheist. I don't think that the field will be a hexagon. I think color recognition could be a part of the game though.

Going back to the Beatles(because I love them so much) rings make sense. Perhaps we need to collect rings and place them on a pole(or Paul) or something.

DaSpyder
04-01-2005, 22:06
Maybe a triple play of setting off triggers during automonous mode will release rings early, and i love the idea of using music lyrics, pi, you and me, 3 .vs. 3 would seem logical for our regional, and would prove the reason for increase in the amt. of championship teams able to attend Atlanta.

NiNJ4
04-01-2005, 22:26
I don't want to sound ridiculous, but don't you think that even Green Day's Insomniac album cover can fit these clues? (If it doesn't make sense to you, then just don't quote me). On another note, I've heard many a time around my home, a joke about my mother's boss telling her to take off her "Rose Colored Glasses" and see the truth. Is this hinting at difficulty viewing the field, perhaps IR-guided gameplay? Also, for the baseball players, they all got triples, and there seems to be some thought over 3 sides. The triples could mean, as someone above stated, that there may be a triple-trigger. Perhaps in autonomous, we have to avoid a central circle (thus explaining pi), which prevents your team from viewing the opponent directly across from you (Putting pi in between you and your opponent), and activate the three triggers, which were signified by triples-record. Then, the teams would, perhaps, do another basketball-style game where the object is to get as many of your colored balls into the central tube.

Cheers and good luck understanding this one!
-NiNJ4

Mr. A
04-01-2005, 22:33
How about Nerf balls?
You probably would need plexiglass sides if you get involved with pitching catching or hitting Nerf balls.
Sounds too complicated but it would be fun!

NiNJ4
04-01-2005, 22:41
How about Nerf balls?
You probably would need plexiglass sides if you get involved with pitching catching or hitting Nerf balls.
Sounds too complicated but it would be fun!
I can only imagine the teams shooting nerf guns at targets located on the field. That, my friends, would be chaos.

kenwood
04-01-2005, 22:44
Okay, here goes nothing. Picture this a hexagonal shaped field. Each side has purple plexiglas. Control stations on each side.There 6 teams in 2 alliances. They are positioned alternately on the sides. In the center of the playing field is a circular hole. In the hole is 6 baskets. The baskets form a pyramid in the center. Each team must pass a ball from their station to a team mates basket creating a triple play. The human player may attempt to throw the ball to their team mates basket but risks scoring for their opponent. Any thoughts?

M. Hicken
04-01-2005, 23:18
I havent slept in 2 days because ive been thinking about the clue too much. While it is fun to hypothesize, in the end, it wont matter come Sat. So ive given up trying to decypher the clue. Dave you win this year, but next year, when im in my dorm with nothing to do, ill be doing th same thing.

So i leave this...
weve had a class of 20 juniors and seniors taking this apart for days, and weve come up with no more than you guys have, in less than 30 pages :-)
I hate giving up, but im gonna have uncers over this one. At least Stairway to Heaven was possible. beatles to baseball. Im toast.

fallnangelzbld
04-01-2005, 23:22
Had nothing better to do so I was looking at some info on John and George... saw something ... figured I'd share it so we could take it apart for a few days or whatever. Lol
John Neun and George Burns the baseball players share a common link other than their unassisted plays.... their middle name. Its Henry. Coincidence? I think not... this was a big conspiracy their mothers both created. :]

BrianJennings
05-01-2005, 00:21
I am thingking the the capitalizations of the Amethyst You and Me are referring to proper nouns. So therefore there might be somthing that is being referred to by Amethyst You and Me. They are probably not acronyms for anything, becuase they are not all capitalized. Can anyone else think of any references to You or Me as proper nouns instead of pronouns?

Collmandoman
05-01-2005, 00:55
what if... just to be weird and say this.. There is no initial autonomous mode,but there is an object obstructed from all of our views -that adds big points like the bar- and you have to put your robot in position to 'autonomously' complete a task~ you'll only know when the curtain is let down or whatever is blocking your view- look closely by using your IR sensor glasses and there is something between all of us
and dark side of the moon synches up with wizard of oz... but not really.. at all

Dr. Gizmo
05-01-2005, 01:54
My $.02 -

There seems to be lots of threes here; Amethyst has a hexagonal crystal shape; "Rose", Neun, and Burns all were connected to the same MLB team (the Reds). Neun and Burns mentioned specifically because of the triple play.

I expect three alliances because of the Pi. Rather than 3.14, Pi (radians)could be 180 degrees between alliance partners (you and me). This means a six-sided playing field, with the view between alliance members blocked by the center structure.

Fredo
05-01-2005, 04:02
Of what I read and disscussed with others, a 6 sided field seems to be the most likely conclusion. But it just seems hard to determine if we are going to have 6 teams on the field at once (Blue, Red, and Purple [with alliances of 2 teams per side]) OR just 3 teams with one team per side. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages, but here's what I think:

The "Pi between you and me" seem to hint at allances of the field. Even thought allied teams would be right next to each other, they're still would be 360 degrees between them (if walking around the field in a circle).

But all this still leaves a blank slate for the rest of the game however....

Michael Leicht
05-01-2005, 07:11
The "Pi between you and me" seem to hint at allances of the field. Even thought allied teams would be right next to each other

is this like 2000 games where the robots are on the same side along with the drive teams?

Tim Delles
05-01-2005, 09:55
looking at the recent post and thinking more about the clue and everything that Dave has posted i have to agree with a few things that have recently been posted and some that have been here for a while.

1. The field has to be hexagonal in shape.
2. 3 alliances. I think it will be 3 teams of 2 just because of the higher team registration for regionals and the unofficial hint of '4 is not enough'.
3. We are still going to have an autonomous mode, just because it is a thing that FIRST has come to like, and i can't see them not having us have to program auto modes.
4. Just in response to the not seeing the field before we go on to it. It makes no sense, not to be mean but it doesn't. if you go out for a match FIRST is not going change it every time just so its different, that would be a hell of a lot of time to spend on changing the field, and we would only get in like 20 matches a day at that rate. So i think we will still be able to see the field before hand, and anyways how are they going to stop us from seeing the field while we wait for the match, plus we have to put the robot on the field so it would kinda not make sense to have the drivers station blocked off. however i do see them having a scoring device in front of the players station, idk something like a ramp or bar, or goal.. something.
5. IR sensor possible, but not likely needed. there could be different ways to program auto mode to do what you need than with IR sensors.

theres some more of my 2 cents.

Wetzel
05-01-2005, 10:26
For everyone suggesting that you need special glasses to see the field or parts thereof, that will not happen. Too long has 'make for tv' been driving the design.


Wetzel

KelliV
05-01-2005, 10:29
George Burns was also a comedian...

as for changing the field and not seeing it prior to play FIRST could do something like they did wil FLL and placing a part of the field in different places each time. This could tie in the human players like in '03 when they placed the boxes out the opposing alliences could place the boxes out for the other team... like the red alliance placeing something out for the blue.

Another thing is when they talk about between you and I the robots my need to pass things to their allience partners in order to score.

Bill Gold
05-01-2005, 10:35
For everyone suggesting that you need special glasses to see the field or parts thereof, that will not happen. Too long has 'make for tv' been driving the design.


Wetzel
I don't know, man... The more I read that hint the more I think there's something about that "...if you look closely..." that is a major hint towards the game. If not glasses, then maybe some sort of sensor like a banner sensor on steroids, or something? I mean, the past two year's we've had some sort of visual sensing being a "part" of the game (2003: retroreflective tape on HP bins, and 2004: IR sensing near the 10 point balls), I sure as heck wouldn't be surprised to see this stuff again, or this idea taken to the next level. Who knows, maybe we'll have to drive our robots "Mars Rover" style, looking at instruments (dashboard) and a camera. If it's good enough for Dave and Mars, then why the heck can't we do it in competition? :p

<edit>
Since when was 2002 or 2003 good for television or for audiences? Secondly, imho, autonomous mode wastes a lot of audience excitement, since only a handful of teams have actually consistently been able do tasks during that time.
</edit>

LordDumpling
05-01-2005, 10:43
I heard something about Flying Monkeys and a Giant Pit, but I suppose that doesn't go along with the clues, unless the pit is round and filled with purple jello, which would make that correct.

I base my knowledge on with the loads of jello FIRST has bought, with my credit card.

Why do I let those FIRST people use my credit card? Just cause I have an unlimited credit limit, and I really can afford it, doesn't make it right. I should write a check instead, or better yet cash. Cash is always better, remember that when fund raising.

Good luck teams with this years competition. I recommend you invest in a giant spoon and rubber suits.

MissInformation
05-01-2005, 10:53
For everyone suggesting that you need special glasses to see the field or parts thereof, that will not happen. Too long has 'make for tv' been driving the design.


Wetzel

One of my first thoughts for the game as far as lighting goes was black light since it has a purple (amethyst) glow (and if the field was practically unseeable due to this, and there were 3 alliances or 3 robots per alliance you could throw in 3 blind mice in keeping with the 3 theme but that's completely random and besides the point), however I didn't think of it seriously, not because of TV but because of the spectators in the audience. I think the field will remain largely visible, because having an exciting game can hook possible sponsors and additional volunteers and if the field cannot be seen this may not happen.

Heidi

Elgin Clock
05-01-2005, 10:59
I heard something about Flying Monkeys and a Giant Pit, but I suppose that doesn't go along with the clues, unless the pit is round and filled with purple jello, which would make that correct.
I base my knowledge on with the loads of jello FIRST has bought, with my credit card.
Why do I let those FIRST people use my credit card? Just cause I have an unlimited credit limit, and I really can afford it, doesn't make it right. I should write a check instead, or better yet cash. Cash is always better, remember that when fund raising.
Good luck teams with this years competition. I recommend you invest in a giant spoon and rubber suits.

Finally... Someone (in their FIRST post here on Chiefdelphi) didn't repeat something that was already said in the last ~460 posts. I applaude you, and welcome you to CD.

Andrew
05-01-2005, 11:00
Just try looking at it from a different viewpoint - like that of the folks at FIRST. They have to get everything ready for the kick-off, finish packing the kits, ship out all the materials to the remote kick-off sites, complete the game design, publish the documentation, send out the field drawings, complete all the corporate agreements, confirm registration of all the teams, proofread the game rules for the 1435th time, purchase JVN's birthstone, coordinate the satellie connection for the broadcast, procure all the spare parts that will be needed, prepare to handle the inevitable questions from teams, and about 750 other things. From their standpoint, Kick-off is a masive stress point. Ship date is a walk in the woods in comparison.

(just a gentle reminder not to limit yourself to just one viewpoint - every problem can and should be examined from different angles)

-dave

Did anyone pick up on this clue?

Elgin Clock
05-01-2005, 11:05
Did anyone pick up on this clue?
Yes, It's Amethyst.. Been there, done that..

Try reading the whole thread before you post.. :D Or at least searching.

Dave Campbell
05-01-2005, 11:17
Finally... Someone (in their FIRST post here on Chiefdelphi) didn't repeat something that was already said in the last ~460 posts. I applaude you, and welcome you to CD.

Elgin,
Are we in the presence of Dean? Is LordDumpling really who he registered as? Team 1038 will just use the rubber from the walls of our rooms they keep us locked in. For the giant spoons, we'll just use the ones we eat all of our PI filling with...can't wait to see the real game Saturday

KelliV
05-01-2005, 11:28
OK so i have been thinking (scary I know) and I am going to apologize early for the harry potter refrence but... Pi never ends right? So maybe there isnt a time of 3 minutes like there has been every year... what if like in Harry Potter's quidditch(sp?) game a task HAD to be completed before the game could end like catching the golden snitch(sp?)?

Swampdude
05-01-2005, 11:28
Elgin,
Are we in the presence of Dean? Is LordDumpling really who he registered as? Team 1038 will just use the rubber from the walls of our rooms they keep us locked in. For the giant spoons, we'll just use the ones we eat all of our PI filling with...can't wait to see the real game Saturday


Good catch (http://www.bergey.com/Examples/Kamen.html), either that's Dean's (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=313180&postcount=459) first post on Delphi, or another CD pranxster. If it is, I always wondered if he missed out on all the traffic buzzing based on his creation.

Hi Dean ole buddy!

p.s. thanks for signing my shirt :p

BillP
05-01-2005, 11:36
There is a lot of speculation going though this thread and some of it is probably on the mark, and some of it not. I haven't read all 400+ posts yet, but there is somthing that I noticed that I haven't seen in a post yet.

Pi is the Greek letter "P" (duh!) and the 16th letter of the Greek alphabet. Looking at the clue, maybe "you" is the Greek letter Upsilon and "me" is the Greek letter Mu. Interestingly, Mu is the 12th letter of the alphabet and Upsilon is the 20th letter meaning that Pi is located exactly halfway between them. Looking inbetween the letter Upsilon, Mu and Pi are the following letters:

Mu M
Nu N
Xi X
Omicron O
Pi P
Rho R
Sigma S
Tau T
Upsilon U

This gives us the letters N, X, O, R, S and T.

Don't know if this means anything, just thought it was interesting.

Pat Roche
05-01-2005, 11:41
no suer if this will hav been posted yet or not. i haven't finished reading all of the posts in this thread yet. but when you read it like that, it reaffirms the point that the product or scores will have something in common with you and i. so then red and blue with have to work together to accomplish at least a piece of their scores, maybe some sort of multiplier. :rolleyes:

hope this makes sense.


Maybe the scoring system is based off the difference of you and your opponent and multiplied by pi and both alliances recieve that score.

Or maybe its the difference of the two alliances scores and the value of pi
-Pat

Revolverx7
05-01-2005, 11:42
I still think that its going to be 2 teams of three. If it were 3 teams of 2 this leads to teams easily being able to gang up on a single team. Although it could happen I don't like the idea of 3 teams.

Alan Anderson
05-01-2005, 12:36
I still think that its going to be 2 teams of three.
Teams of three are practically guaranteed. The 2005 Championship Eligibility (http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/2005/cmp_elig.htm) says there will be three Regional Champions at each regional event.

Animator
05-01-2005, 12:53
Teams of three are practically guaranteed. The 2005 Championship Eligibility (http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/2005/cmp_elig.htm) says there will be three Regional Champions at each regional event.
The 2005 Eligibility is referring to the 2004 tournament which had 3 winning teams. Two primary competitors and an alternate.

Rich Wong
05-01-2005, 13:02
The dark clouds (in my brain) parted and a beam of light cascaded down and then a voice speaks....
I heard something about Flying Monkeys and a Giant Pit, but I suppose that doesn't go along with the clues, unless the pit is round and filled with purple jello, which would make that correct.

I base my knowledge on with the loads of jello FIRST has bought, with my credit card.

Why do I let those FIRST people use my credit card? Just cause I have an unlimited credit limit, and I really can afford it, doesn't make it right. I should write a check instead, or better yet cash. Cash is always better, remember that when fund raising.

Good luck teams with this years competition. I recommend you invest in a giant spoon and rubber suits.
The darken returns in my mind and the state of confusion engulfs me again.
:eek:
Lord Dumpling?
I am really, really, really scared.

BTW- JELLO is the dessert you eat first!

Steve Howland
05-01-2005, 13:07
The 2005 Eligibility is referring to the 2004 tournament which had 3 winning teams. Two primary competitors and an alternate.
Actually the part of that page that says 3 regional winners per event has been altered - earlier it stated "to be determined based on the 2005 game." Now that this has been changed, it can probably be safely assumed that the 4 teams do not work together, because if they did 4 teams would win. Instead 3 teams win, which could be similar to last year with two competing and the alternate, or all 3 teams of the alliance out in every round. This would make for some interesting matches, especially if a robot broke during a match and a team was only able to go out with 2 or even 1 bot.

Joe Matt
05-01-2005, 13:25
Hey Brandon, can you track the IP of LordDumpling? :)

Tim Delles
05-01-2005, 13:30
I really can't see FIRST making an alliance in the elimination round play with all robots with no contingincy(spelling??) for a broken robot.

TLonghorns0593
05-01-2005, 14:22
There are always three winers and if people are going on the assumption that there are 3 things on the field than it would more than likely be 3 teams of 2. That would make more sense than having 2 teams of 3 because in elims if a bot broke there would be no replacement team. And it says that there is only 3 winning teams per regional, which also adds to the 3 teams of 2 instead of the other previously stated.

Jacqui
05-01-2005, 14:23
Is there any chance that the field could be shaped like a baseball diamond, and in the center be a circle in which the robots start?

Peter Matteson
05-01-2005, 14:31
I really can't see FIRST making an alliance in the elimination round play with all robots with no contingincy(spelling??) for a broken robot.
Makes sense if they make a non-contact game that limits the possibility of damage during the competition.

Tim Delles
05-01-2005, 14:46
You must also realize that 2001 the game was almost no contact or roughing between the robots and it still had an extra robot so i think that you still need the extra robot, that is why i'm sticking by my thought of an extra robot.

Billfred
05-01-2005, 14:52
Makes sense if they make a non-contact game that limits the possibility of damage during the competition.
I can envision this...something like 2v0+2v0, in effect like how the FLL fields are set up (one robot on one side, another on the flip side, and little or no interaction between them). Especially since FLL alumni are now well into the FRC phase of their lives. Redabot and Redderabot are on one side of the field, separated from Bluabot and Bluerabot by a fence or something that keeps robots from crossing over (or under). The challenge would then be adding some kind of offense or defense, to keep the game interesting--something like a ball- (or donut- or inflatable clown-) sized chute to the other side.

Wetzel
05-01-2005, 14:59
Pi is also the population proportion. Dave had a post that mentioned statistics a few days ago.


Wetzel

Metalhugginman
05-01-2005, 15:19
I predict that the driver and operator will have to face away from the playing field during the match. This will require the use of something like a rear view mirror mounted above the player station. (That should add a lot to the excitement, especially when one should turn right or left!) I guess we will know come Saturday. :eek:

Rayvon121
05-01-2005, 15:50
I think this year will have three alliance teams. Last year was the red on one side and blue on the other with two teams on each alliance. I think this year it will be a red alliance, blue alliance, and a purple alliance each with two robots of course with a pyramaidal looking field.

Peter Matteson
05-01-2005, 15:57
I know this has been mentioned several places already but here is a link to the info on John Neun & George Burns.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/feats/feats8.shtml

Pete

meaubry
05-01-2005, 16:14
Did you know that there were 2 guys named George Burns that played baseball? Yes, one did complete a triple play, the other didn't. What if the other George Burns had something else in common (between) himself and Johnny Nuen! So far - I have found out that they share the same middle name - Henry, for what its worth.

663.keith
05-01-2005, 16:38
ok, I have read all 480+ posts in this forum, and have noticed many repeats of ideas. To clear up some of the most common ideas, I have decided to compile them into one post.

note: most of these aren't my ideas, I am just compiling them

'"While wearing Amethyst colored glasses, John Neun gave George Burns the following riddle: "Look closely and you will see something between Pi, You and Me." '

~Amethyst - six sided purple crystal
__________- six sides could relate to a hexagonal or other shaped field
__________- purple is a combonation of red and blue
______________*possibility of a third neutral alliance
_______________*possibility of different alliances: 3v3 or 2v2v2
__________- related to infared
______________*special glasses, can see infared signal
______________*not true, impossible

~John Neun and George Burns
__________- First basemen
__________- both made unasisted triple plays
______________*relates both to three: more prof of different alliances
__________- average of thier batting averages is .314
__________- George Burns also an actor
______________*played God in Oh God series
______________*three movies made in series
~pi, not capitilized
__________- 3.1415...
__________- noted that a similarity between John, George and PI is 3
______________*even more proof to alliances
__________- relates to the pyramids
______________*possiblity of a pyramid object in the center
______________*possiblity of a pyramid shaped playing field (3 sides)

~Pi, capitialized
__________- means 'product'
__________- not capitalized in the clue
__________- possiblity of winners getting the product of their and opponents socres

~Grammer
__________- "difference between pi, you and me"
__________- perfectly fine
______________*me can be used because there is no verb after it
______________*a comma is not necessasry between you and, 'and'
__________- brings up a question
______________*is there a difference between all three
______________*or a difference between pi, and then you and me


I hope this helps, please look before you post

snipelfritz
05-01-2005, 16:55
As I said earlier, the clue clearly states "amethiest colored glasses" They aren't real ametheist, just colored, probably purple.

I belive it will be a 3v3 match, as 3 alliances would be too complicated on a rectangular field(as I still believe it is).

The game must have something to do with performing a triple play by yourself. I also think some sort of color recognition during autonomous mode may be put into play.

TRx 145
05-01-2005, 17:21
If you compare the highest career batting averages of Johnny Neun (.325) and George Burns (.303) you will find that Pi lies exactly halfway between the two numbers. So we think that since Pi is the two batting averages, the robots will have to hit something.
:D
TRx 145

Petey
05-01-2005, 18:04
Especially in light of the last post, I'd like to take this time to state my opinion that whoever wrote this hint is probably laughing hysterically at how much we are analyzing it.

--Petey

Gusman1188
05-01-2005, 19:07
OK, so about this album thing - here are the titles from the album Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band.
With a little help from my friends - alliances?
Diamonds - Another crystallized rock.
64 - lets see.... 2^6 just trying to brainstorm - 6/2 = 3, two teams, 3 in alliance, 6 sided object and/or field
also, Lonely Hearts, without you- could this mean something about no alliance?

Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band
With A Little Help From My Friends
Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds
Getting Better
Fixing A Hole
She's Leaving Home
Being For The Benefit Of Mr. Kite!
Within You Without You
When I'm Sixty Four
Lovely Rita
Good Morning Good Morning
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (Reprise)


any other ideas?

Simon Strauss
05-01-2005, 19:28
George H. Burns -- Sept. 14, 1923
Boston first baseman George Burns turned his in the second inning against Cleveland. Burns caught Frank Brower's line drive, tagged Walt Lutzke off first base and ran to second and slid into the bag before Riggs Stephenson could return from third base.

is there another george burns? other then baseball?

yeah i think theres a comedian named george burns

dez250
05-01-2005, 19:29
...
~PI, capitilized
__________- 3.1415...
__________- noted that a similarity between John, George and PI is 3
______________*even more proof to alliances
__________- relates to the pyramids
______________*possiblity of a pyramid object in the center
______________*possiblity of a pyramid shaped playing field (3 sides)

~pi, not capitialized
__________- means 'product'
__________- not capitalized in the clue
__________- possiblity of winners getting the product of their and opponents socres
...


You have that backwards, pi is 3.14 and Pi is product while in the clue, Pi was used.

Gusman1188
05-01-2005, 19:30
ok...another thing.
Looking through Amethyst glasses, can you tell the difference between red and blue?
What if the drivers have to wear glasses with purple tint and the alliances were not disclosed. Then, everybody would have to find who their alliance. What a nightmare this could be but there were always complaints about pre-strategizing by some people. I'm not so sure of how far in depth they will go with this but imagine sitting in the stands, knowing who is allianced and watching your drivers play the game not knowing their alliance. Also, last year F.I.R.S.T made the new RC's that they can change the color through their controls, allowing know one to know alliances until the game began. Let me know what you think.

Paradox1350
05-01-2005, 19:40
yeah i think theres a comedian named george burns


Yes, it has been said MANY times in this thread: George Burns is a comedian.

Not only was he a comedian, but he was a VERY WELL-KNOWN comedian. If you don't believe me, ask your parents or grandparents who he is. I remember watching the "Oh God!" movies when I was little. I've known who George Burns was for years.

George Burns the actor lived to be exactly 100 years old. He stared in the very popular Oh God! movie series. He also narrated the "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band" movie. Hence the Beatles connection to the Hint and the reason that everyone keeps mentioning the Sgt. Pepper album in particular.

For more info, please go here: All the info you'd EVER want on George Burns the COMEDIAN (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0122675/?fr=c2l0ZT1kZnxteD0yMHxzZz0xfGxtPTIwMHx0dD1vbnxwbj 0wfHE9Z2VvcmdlIGJ1cm5zfGh0bWw9MXxubT1vbg__;fc=1;ft =20;fm=1)

Bcahn836
05-01-2005, 19:45
Looking at the Advance Material list i think we are over thinking this clue. Orangeish yellow paint? Magnets? Grease? I don't think we have come up with any ideas that are even close looking at this list. I dunno may just be me

663.keith
05-01-2005, 19:46
You have that backwards, pi is 3.14 and Pi is product while in the clue, Pi was used.


Whoops! I'm sorry you are right, I had it right before, but my computer kicked me off, and I had to re-type that whole thing, thanks for that

yes, all famous George Burns' have been mentioned

Elgin Clock
05-01-2005, 20:01
Looking at the Advance Material list i think we are over thinking this clue. Orangeish yellow paint? Magnets? Grease? I don't think we have come up with any ideas that are even close looking at this list. I dunno may just be meActually.. Yellowish Paint.

Beatles reference - Yellow Submarine
edit: Sgt. Pepper is similar to the character in the game Clue's Col. Mustard

Pyramids reference - Usually seen as a yellow or goldish color on images

Charley
05-01-2005, 20:20
Hm, guys. Maybe first just wants to do a whole, big Beatle's escapade of a game?

Only a few more days....

(btw list is on the Advanced materials thread)

Conor Ryan
05-01-2005, 20:44
ok...another thing.
Looking through Amethyst glasses, can you tell the difference between red and blue?
What if the drivers have to wear glasses with purple tint and the alliances were not disclosed. Then, everybody would have to find who their alliance. What a nightmare this could be but there were always complaints about pre-strategizing by some people. I'm not so sure of how far in depth they will go with this but imagine sitting in the stands, knowing who is allianced and watching your drivers play the game not knowing their alliance. Also, last year F.I.R.S.T made the new RC's that they can change the color through their controls, allowing know one to know alliances until the game began. Let me know what you think.

that glasses idea would add a great twist, but after one game everyone would know the difference, unless the robots emmit a light like last year, but its only visable with the glasses

billbuckner
05-01-2005, 20:44
God, this is weird. I feel so insignificant when I see the progress made. One small contribution, if it hasn't been mentioned.
An alternate definition of "pi" is
Main Entry: 3pi
Function: adjective
1 : not intended to appear in final printing <pi lines>
2 : capable of being inserted only by hand <pi characters