View Full Version : Unnofficial? (FIRST Robotics Singapore)
Elgin Clock
30-12-2004, 20:25
With a new FRC competition on the brain, I set off to do some searching about the given clues.
Googling a bunch of different FIRST related key words, imagine my shock when I happened to stumble upon a Robotics competition in Singapore that just happened to be named FIRST as well.
Well, almost... The FRS or "FIRST Robotics Singapore" website describes a FIRST like game, and even gives links to Innovation FIRST a leading supplier to the FRC competition that we play.
Details can be found HERE (http://www.science.edu.sg/ssc/events.jsp?type=17&root=278&parent=342&cat=343).
Imagine my further shock when then I saw a picture gallery (http://www.science.edu.sg/ssc/events.jsp?artid=5577&type=17&root=278&parent=278&cat=329), and then.. it became apparent that FIRST Robotics Singapore, was in fact.. recycling an old FIRST game, and sizing them down to use the Innovation FIRST Robovation kit with.
The proof is in the picture (http://www.science.edu.sg/frs/photogallery/competition/day3/FRSpic14.html)(s)... Looks like a familiar game to me.. Sort of..:ahh:
Could this be why FIRST patented 2003 game? Is FIRST Robotics Singapore "borrowing" FIRST's ideas and rehashing them as their own?
Maybe FIRST has partnered with them?
Does anybody know? :ahh:
Thoughts?
Bill Gold
30-12-2004, 20:27
If you have questions about this I would suggest you email Ken Krieger here in Palo Alto, CA. I'll give you his contact info if you PM me. He has been involved in this.
JohnBoucher
30-12-2004, 20:35
First I've heard about this. WOW. Nice find Elgin
It's like mini-FIRST, maybe US FIRST would go total global, they have a team in Australia. Probably when FIRST goes Asia, a Japanese team consisting of all Asian geniuses would totally take the competition.
phrontist
30-12-2004, 23:06
It's like mini-FIRST, maybe US FIRST would go total global, they have a team in Australia. Probably when FIRST goes Asia, a Japanese team consisting of all Asian geniuses would totally take the competition.
Wow, that's a pretty prejudicial conclusion. I've got a friend or two in japan, and I wouldn't say they are all thousands of times smarter than us. Besides, they'd be at a huge disadvantage, because they wouldn't have any time to do FIRST with their ridiculous schooling hours. Most Japanese students go to extra school after school, and have tons more homework than we do.
UPDATE: Oh, and it's ridiculously cool!
http://www.science.edu.sg/ssc/events.jsp?artid=6218&type=17&root=278&parent=342&cat=343
this is the history page it mentions FIRST as the chosen platform for the game, specifically stack attack, but no mention of official FIRST approval.
Also they have NJRC (http://www.science.edu.sg/ssc/events.jsp?type=17&root=0&parent=0&cat=317) which is much like FLL
Greg Needel
30-12-2004, 23:17
so 8 months ago elgin :p
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27395&highlight=Singapore
Max Lobovsky
30-12-2004, 23:42
Wow, that's a pretty prejudicial conclusion. I've got a friend or two in japan, and I wouldn't say they are all thousands of times smarter than us. Besides, they'd be at a huge disadvantage, because they wouldn't have any time to do FIRST with their ridiculous schooling hours. Most Japanese students go to extra school after school, and have tons more homework than we do.
Hahahaha, I love how you substitute one stereotype out for another. I have to agree with both, though. A team sponsored by Toyota or Honda or something will kick all of our butts even though all the students will have to spend so much time doing homework.
I say they'd probably win is because of their work ethic. My bio teacher, also our teacher for FIRST, since I don't know what to call her, that's what I call her, but she was in Japan for a little bit and said that Japanese students work harder in school instead of sports or other things, unlike most American students. This is probably the way they are raised up. My mom is Asian and she also tells me to do well in school because schooling is first priority...Well...I guess that sometimes is right, but oh well.. Having a Japanese team to compete against would be very interesting...I wonder if they'd actually speak English or Japanese, and would FIRST have to translate the video into Japanese for them?
This is really interesting, but my question is, why aren't they part of the big FIRST? I mean, we (FIRST) have extended to Canada, Mexico, Brazil, and Israel of all places, you'd think that we would be quite capable of extending to Singapore, Japan, China, etc.
Gal Longin
31-12-2004, 11:12
... we (FIRST) have extended to Canada, Mexico, Brazil, and Israel of all places, you'd think that we would be quite capable of extending to Singapore, Japan, China, etc.
I would like to know what exactly did you mean by saying: "Israel of all places".
I'd have you know that in spite of what you may think of Israel, it has an highly developed hi-tech industry. One of the most advanced industries in the world for hi-tech products and technologies.
And many international robotics competitions like this one: http://www.trincoll.edu/events/robot/ (http://www.trincoll.edu/events/robot/ ) are usually won by Israeli teams.
Katie Reynolds
31-12-2004, 11:13
I'm sure FIRST is very capable of reaching out to Singapore - but maybe these teams don't want to be part of FIRST. It looks like the robots and field they're building are much smaller, and therefore less costly.
The Registration Fee for the FRS 2005 Competition:
* Registering on or before 5pm on January 14th, 2005,
the Registration Fee per team is S$500.00.
* Registering between January 15th, 2005 & on or before 5pm on January 31st, 2005,
the Registration Fee per team is S$600.00.
1.00 US dollar = 0.61 Singapore dollars. -- it costs $819-$983 USD to register for FRS .. versus the $6,000 USD it costs to register for FRC.
FIRST is pretty expensive. And this looks like FLL on an FRC field... kind of a combination of both.
The robotics learning model is to have students meet a specific challenge by designing and building their robots from basic components in order to understand the scale and the details of such (R&D prototyping) projects. Thus, the popular American FIRST Robotics Competition (http://www.usfirst.org/) (FRC) was the chosen platform for the second annual NSRL which then was renamed FIRST Robotics Singapore (FRS).
The inaugural FRS was held in March 2004. With the invaluable help of various enthusiastic volunteers, mentors and invited FRC-
WRRF (http://www.wrrf.org/Main/index.php) personnel (from the USA), FRS 2004 was a notable success. Its "Stack Attack" challenge was met by 27 teams from secondary schools, JCs and (academically equivalent) institutes. The challenge was a scaled-down, modified version of a previous FRC competition.
Given 8 weeks to learn about robot design and construction, the teams, guided by their mentors, competed in the Finals held at the Singapore EXPO from March 16th to 19th, 2004. Very noticeable and welcoming was the enthusiasm shown by all the participants during the Finals. Of even greater significance were the signs of the "gracious professionalism" and sharing among rival teams during the competition.
From: http://www.science.edu.sg/ssc/events.jsp?type=17&root=278&parent=342&cat=343
J Flex 188
31-12-2004, 11:23
Just a thought.
We here in North America tend to get a bit wrapped up in our own devices, but when a competition like this or a link like this is posted to a different country, from the posts here (not that it was anyones intent :rolleyes: in the first place) it seems that we take in certain stereotypes about the participants. One can always say it is in jest, and I'm fairly certain that everyone is guilty of it at least once in their lives, but what would happen if a student from Japan who was looking to start their own team for FIRST came in and saw how he was being profiled, even in a light-hearted manner. I'm of asian descent, and for my parents its always schoolwork that comes first, even more so this year because of the importance of getting into university. When the FIRST season comes, I get incredibly stressed out at times but the fun nature of competitions and the rewarding feeling that something you helped build is actually doing its job keeps me going through assignments and exams. Every student in the world has to deal with this, whether they are from Israel, South Africa, England, the United States or Japan.
Diversity means diversity in ideas too. Some of the robots from the singapore competition might have employed strategies or ideas that we may not even have come up with in North America. All that I'm saying is simply watch what you post, despite the fact that its all in fun anyways. I hope. =)
phrontist
31-12-2004, 11:28
I would like to know what exactly did you mean by saying: "Israel of all places".
I'd have you know that in spite of what you may think of Israel, it has an highly developed hi-tech industry. One of the most advanced industries in the world for hi-tech products and technologies.
And many international robotics competitions like this one: http://www.trincoll.edu/events/robot/ (http://www.trincoll.edu/events/robot/ ) are usually won by Israeli teams.
I was somewhat suprised that Israel was included in FIRST before, say, Japan, mainly because I would think sponsorship oppurtunities would be harder to come by in Israel, simply because it's a smaller country. I'm happy to see Israeli firms, or whoever, stepped up to the plate.
Hahahaha, I love how you substitute one stereotype out for another. I have to agree with both, though. A team sponsored by Toyota or Honda or something will kick all of our butts even though all the students will have to spend so much time doing homework.
Sony (http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/QRIO/top.html) would beat Honda and Toyota. :p
Wetzel
phrontist
31-12-2004, 12:24
Okay, Japan is cool, but I'd put my money on a German FIRST team with BMW engineers as mentors. C'mon BMW versus GM...
Jeff Rodriguez
31-12-2004, 12:50
I wonder if any of those teams watch our game and get to work early.
Also, did you notice the little podium-like things on the field. It's real close to the 2003 game, but not exactly the same.
Sony (http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/QRIO/top.html) would beat Honda and Toyota. :p
Wetzel
It'd be cool if they made like, a bigger AIBO for the competition, and it do some extra stuff like barking, etc when it won. But hey Wetzel, how long have they been working on that robot project? I don't really remember hearing about a robot other than AIBO from Sony but I heard about Honda making one and maybe Toyota, but I'm not sure. Their QRIO robot looks really cool, sort of like a mini Honda robot, but some of the things that it does in the video clips look unrealistic, conducting a symphony??? I have to see it to believe it. But overall it looks cool, nice casing too.
This is really interesting, but my question is, why aren't they part of the big FIRST? I mean, we (FIRST) have extended to Canada, Mexico, Brazil, and Israel of all places, you'd think that we would be quite capable of extending to Singapore, Japan, China, etc.
and england
and france
and australia
and germany
i dont think any harm was meant by saying "israel of all places",
Ryan Dognaux
31-12-2004, 14:29
That's really awesome, thanks for bringing this up because I'd never even heard of it before. I do wonder why they're not listed on the main FIRST map or really anywhere on the sites because they do use "FIRST" in the name of their program. Regardless, that's some pretty cool miniature stuff :]
That's really awesome, thanks for bringing this up because I'd never even heard of it before. I do wonder why they're not listed on the main FIRST map or really anywhere on the sites because they do use "FIRST" in the name of their program. Regardless, that's some pretty cool miniature stuff :]
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=245412&postcount=10
I missed this last night but another person I told about this pointed it out
I would like to know what exactly did you mean by saying: "Israel of all places".
I'd have you know that in spite of what you may think of Israel, it has an highly developed hi-tech industry. One of the most advanced industries in the world for hi-tech products and technologies.
And many international robotics competitions like this one: http://www.trincoll.edu/events/robot/ (http://www.trincoll.edu/events/robot/ ) are usually won by Israeli teams.
I didn't mean it like that, sorry. I meant to say how far FIRST has reached, starting from the US extending all the way to Israel, you would think that we could extend the other direction into Asia. Sorry for the confusion.
Ken Leung
31-12-2004, 22:15
If you have questions about this I would suggest you email Ken Krieger here in Palo Alto, CA. I'll give you his contact info if you PM me. He has been involved in this.
Before this discussion gets any bigger and affect any of the involving organizations' images, I would like to second what Bill said and clarify that "FIRST Robotics Singapore" is not a part of our FIRST, but their game was directly inspired by the 2003 Stack Attack Tournament.
They were consulted by Ken Krieger, the president of WRRF (Western Region Robotics Forum), when they were looking for help in creating their first year competition. As a result, the FIRST Robotics Singapore was born, and Ken K. along with some west coast FIRST students went over to Singapore during 2004 to help them run their competition. In return, the Singapore folks came over to visit the Silicon Valley 2004 Regional and watched our FIRST Frenzy tournament.
This is a seperate group effort in promoting science and technology in Singapore.
So before you speculate how this group is or isn't related to FIRST, you should ask Ken Krieger about it and get the facts straight before you decide anything about this organization/effort.
Max Lobovsky
02-01-2005, 23:04
Sony (http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/QRIO/top.html) would beat Honda and Toyota. :p
Wetzel
The problem is, with Sony, your $3500 budget gets you a barebones robot. A drivetrain and perhaps a simple plow. It will probably use all sorts of proprietary controls and devices. It may be reliable, but are you sure its worth the extra cost? Now with say Panasonic, you know you really get features for every last penny you put in...
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