FRC Manual in Advance?

[indieFan]

Last year we saw the FRC manual available for downloading before the day of kickoff due to worries about overloading the servers (if my memory serves). These were then opened using a password given out during the kickoff broadcast.

Will the same thing be happening this year?

Thanks,
indieFan

[team222badbrad]

Yes you are correct, FIRST did allow us to download them a few days before kickoff.

If FIRST does this again this year, it will probably be up in the next few days.

The FIRST website is very slow today, maybe they are uploading it now! ;)

[Stu Bloom]

Good question... I was thinking the same thing. And how about some "unlocked" documentation - anything that will not give any hints to the game. This includes a "low-cost" field BOM (unless that would be giving away too much). We all know how short 6 weeks is ... any information that gives us a jump on the less critical items would be extremely helpful.

[Max Lobovsky]

What format were the manuals? A password protected PDF?

[team222badbrad]

What format were the manuals? A password protected PDF?

Thats exactly what they were. Once the field and such was unveiled, FIRST put up some big long password on the broadcast.

[Elgin Clock]

FIRST put up some big long password on the broadcast.
Yup..
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23536&highlight=password

[Joe Johnson]

This may be a case where a lot of folks around here should probably hang their head in shame.

FIRST took a lot of heat because a lot of folks (mostly uninformed folks) around ChiefDelphi.com talked about how "easy" it would be to crack the code, etc.

It did not matter that most of it was just plain foolishness, the talk was out there and a lot of people believed it.

Would YOU go through the hassle again given the grief they took?

I wouldn't.

Free speech comes with some responsibilities.

Joe J.

P.S. I promised myself that I'd put in a shameless plug for the "NBD: Nothing But Dewalts" (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/papers.php?s=&action=downloadpaper&paperid=398) whitepaper whenever I posted in the 2005 Season, so here it is: I believe this instant classic will take its place as one of the most important How To's FIRSTers have access to. JJ

[Gary Dillard]

<Gets on soapbox>

Any chance they'll finally give us the dimensions of the ACTUAL 2004 field hardware before they post the 2005 information?


OK, OK, someday I'll get over it. And the tether ruling. If that's all I have to complain about for the last couple years, I'd say they're doing pretty well.

<Gets off soapbox>

[Steve W]

<Gets on soapbox>

Any chance they'll finally give us the dimensions of the ACTUAL 2004 field hardware before they post the 2005 information?


OK, OK, someday I'll get over it. And the tether ruling. If that's all I have to complain about for the last couple years, I'd say they're doing pretty well.

<Gets off soapbox>

Now open the box and use what's inside. ;)

[Joe Ross]

I'm not sure it really reduced their bandwidth any, either. The password wasn't a type it in once and unlock it forever, you had to type it in each time you opened the pdf. For me, after doing it 10 times in an hour, I downloaded the unlocked copies. I'm sure everyone else did the same.

[Alan Anderson]

I figured the password-protected files were made available in advance for the benefit of those teams who wouldn't have a quick internet connection readily available on the day of kickoff. That way they wouldn't be at a disadvantage because they were without official documentation while others had it in hand.

If it were my responsibility, I'd have provided an option to retrieve the whole .pdf collection in one password-protected (and presumably compressed) archive. That way it would have been a one-time process to extract the actual files using the password.

[Joe Matt]

Mabey FIRST is going to bring back the hard copy manuals, or atleast a CD with the files on it...

[Scott L.]

Actually, if my knowlegde of adobe serves me right, you only hade to enter the password once per document. there was a security/encyption option that removed the password protection. :yikes:

[Kevin Sevcik]

Somewhat off-topic, but is anyone preparing to start a Bittorrent seed of the documentation sometime shortly after kick-off? This would atleast reduce the load generated by the tech-savvy among FIRSTers.

[Gary Dillard]

This may be a case where a lot of folks around here should probably hang their head in shame.

FIRST took a lot of heat because a lot of folks (mostly uninformed folks) around ChiefDelphi.com talked about how "easy" it would be to crack the code, etc.

It did not matter that most of it was just plain foolishness, the talk was out there and a lot of people believed it.

Would YOU go through the hassle again given the grief they took?

I wouldn't.

Free speech comes with some responsibilities.




Joe - I hope you weren't referring to This Thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23502&page=1&pp=15) which I placed in the rumor mill. I did a search on " manuals password" and that's about all that came up. Who took the heat and grief, and who did it come from? The only "claims" were Joe Ross's of "a friend of a friend" and Elgin's of the password starting with 2, 15 characters - not exactly right, was it? Not exactly questionable characters according to their reputations, but they love a good rumor like I do. If FIRST is making decisions based on rumors (especially obvious tomfoolery) or uninformed speculation and unsubstantiated claims they should be hanging their head in shame, not me.

Hopefully this was a misunderstanding.

[dez250]

Joe - I hope you weren't referring to This Thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23502&page=1&pp=15) which I placed in the rumor mill. I did a search on " manuals password" and that's about all that came up. Who took the heat and grief, and who did it come from? The only "claims" were Joe Ross's of "a friend of a friend" and Elgin's of the password starting with 2, 15 characters - not exactly right, was it? Not exactly questionable characters according to their reputations, but they love a good rumor like I do. If FIRST is making decisions based on rumors (especially obvious tomfoolery) or uninformed speculation and unsubstantiated claims they should be hanging their head in shame, not me.

Hopefully this was a misunderstanding.

Take a look at This Thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23419), that has left a bad taste since then in many peoples mouths.

[Max Lobovsky]

Somewhat off-topic, but is anyone preparing to start a Bittorrent seed of the documentation sometime shortly after kick-off? This would atleast reduce the load generated by the tech-savvy among FIRSTers.
I agree, a torrent tracker would really void the need for a early release of a password protected file.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Honestly, that thread is horribly misguided. It started out as a joke, and then someone came in with misinformation about it being possible for a large corporation to crack the encryption. This would be true if FIRST used the very, very basic 40-bit encryption. That can be cracked in a relatively short amount of time by just a single home PC. 128-bit encryption with a strong algorithm and a strong key like FIRST chose is entirely too hard to crack. You could throw dozens of supercomputers at the problem and you might have had last year's documents cracked in time for next year's competition. I'm sure FIRST understands that there is statistically no chance of the password being cracked in even a month, so I can only assume that the delayed release this year is for some other reason.

[Cory]

Honestly, that thread is horribly misguided. It started out as a joke, and then someone came in with misinformation about it being possible for a large corporation to crack the encryption. This would be true if FIRST used the very, very basic 40-bit encryption. That can be cracked in a relatively short amount of time by just a single home PC. 128-bit encryption with a strong algorithm and a strong key like FIRST chose is entirely too hard to crack. You could throw dozens of supercomputers at the problem and you might have had last year's documents cracked in time for next year's competition. I'm sure FIRST understands that there is statistically no chance of the password being cracked in even a month, so I can only assume that the delayed release this year is for some other reason.

Does it matter if it's a joke?

If I'm walking around in front of the whitehouse and make a joke about terrorists or George Bush dying, do you think the secret service agents are gonna go "yo dude, you makin a joke, or were you serious? cuz I really dont feel like getting up and doing anything about it right now" They're going to arrest me, no matter what my intentions were. Same as if you say "bomb" on an airplane.

Intentions don't matter for anything, it's all about perception and in this case FIRST perceived that these people were serious

[Max Lobovsky]

in this case FIRST perceived that these people were serious
How do we know that?

[Cory]

How do we know that?

We assume they did... Joe made a reference to it

[sanddrag]

Once I get the files off the FIRST site, I can upload them to a couple servers I have accounts on in case the FIRST server gets bogged down.

[Gary Dillard]

Take a look at This Thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23419), that has left a bad taste since then in many peoples mouths.

Thanks Dez - wow, I didn't realize what a debate I jumped into. Had I read that thread I probably wouldn't have posted my thread last year even in the rumor section. BTW I do understand the difference between joking around with people and saying "bomb" in an airport, and there is a difference. I wasn't aware that so many people were sensitive about this issue. Sorry Dr. Joe.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

I'm sure FIRST is not releasing the Manuals in advance due to the discussions about cracking the password last year. I'm also sure that whatever they decide to do, everyone will be able to access the files they need in a timely manner.

[Ryan Dognaux]

BTW I do understand the difference between joking around with people and saying "bomb" in an airport, and there is a difference.

Yeah c'mon, haven't you guys seen Meet the Parents? :]

Really this thread's point has turned into beating a dead horse... no one knows if the manuals will be released ahead of time for sure, but we can assume no.

[Mike Betts]

..If FIRST is making decisions based on rumors (especially obvious tomfoolery) or uninformed speculation and unsubstantiated claims they should be hanging their head in shame, not me...
Gary,

It is not the perceptions of the tech savvy CDers and not the perceptions of FIRST but the perceptions of the public which matters.

This is why some people, like myself, get upset when people make jokes or innuendo about cheating, hacking, et cetera.

There are scores of spiders crawling over this site almost all the time and many end up viewing these fori via Google searches, et cetera.

Bottom line: Thousands of interested people view these fori during the season including parents, grandparents, school administrators, corporate executives, et cetera.

How many corporate sponsors have backed out of supporting a team because his or her secretary reported on one of these remarks during an investigation on the integrity of the FIRST competition? How many parents have prevented their children from participating? We may never know...

Don't throw stones unless you are sure your windows are unbreakable... I am quite positive that ours are fragile indeed!

[Joe Johnson]

There was a LOT of talk about hacking the manual. If my memory is correct, I think some of it even had to be deleted because it started to refer to hacker sites, etc.

Betts and others are correct when they say the effect was not that the manual was actually cracked. It didn't matter that those who said it would be easy were wrong in every essential detail.

My mom and other non-tech folks had no way of knowing. It was corrosive to the fabric of the FIRST community to be talking about even trying to do it.

How would folks think about me starting a thread about how I COULD bypass FIRST's safegards and actually have a person in the stands secretly drive our robot during autonomous mode?

Would it matter that I put in in a Rumor Mill forum? Would disclaimers that it was all just for informational purposes make it okay? Would the fact that I wouldn't even try to do it make this an acceptable topic of conversation in a public forum?

I don't think so. The general public wouldn't know that it was all in fun or technically impossible or not in my nature. All they see is Wildstang's 2003 robot driving around the field acting for all the world like someone in the stands is driving it.

Wouldn't I have SOME responsibility for the doubt in their minds?

Joe J.

P.S. I promised myself that I'd put in a shameless plug for the "NBD: Nothing But Dewalts" (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/papers.php?s=&action=downloadpaper&paperid=398) whitepaper whenever I posted in the 2005 Season, so here it is: I believe this instant classic will take its place as one of the most important How To's FIRSTers have access to. JJ

[Steve W]

I COULD bypass FIRST's safegards and actually have a person in the stands secretly drive our robot during autonomous mode.


Joe, so that's how you do it.

Seriously I agree with Joe on this one.

Note: Joe's quote is taken totally out of context and should not be construed as factual.