View Full Version : YMTC: Redateam uses remote kickoff field
You Make The Call (YMTC) is a series of situations where you are the official and make the call.
Redateam organizes and pays for the construction of the Magnolia Remote Kickoff playing field while abiding by all FIRST non-disclosure rules. After the conclusion of the Magnolia Remote Kickoff, Redateam loads up the field in their pick-up trucks and takes the field to St. Catherine Gravel Company, the facility where Redabot comes to life. All night Saturday, Redateam uses the field along with their old robots to develop their strategy. Before church on Sunday, they know exactly what their robot will do.
Based on the 2004 Robot Rules (http://www2.usfirst.org/2004comp/5-TheRobot-RevC-incorporated.pdf), YOU MAKE THE CALL!
I can see nothing in the 2004 rules that would make this situation illegal. The rules talk about when you can and cannot build the robot. They say nothing about the construction of any other game elements.
They are probably numerous teams that actually spend Saturday after the kickoff strategizing with last year's robot. They may not have an actual field or a mockup to work with but they accomplish the same thing.
If Redateam had enough foresight and financial resources to arrange and pay for the construction of a field for a remote kickoff, I say more power to them!!
Mike Martus
04-01-2005, 22:28
This is a perk for paying and hosting the kick off field. While there may be a slight advantage because of having a practice field, I see the advantage not really being significant to get worked up about.
Saturday afternoon and Sunday many, if not most will work on the game, the field, the robot and hey, its the start of the build.
To all the worried: You have bigger challenges to worry about, relax and concentrate on what is really important .... all the pizza you will eat in the next 6 weeks:).
Tom Bottiglieri
04-01-2005, 22:32
They payed for the field.. let them do what they want.
Go for it, nothing in the rules against it. It's just like practicing programming, electrical, etc. before kick-off.
Max Lobovsky
04-01-2005, 22:51
Anyone happen to know which teams do build fields for kickoffs?
Kims Robot
04-01-2005, 23:13
while abiding by all FIRST non-disclosure rules.
This sounds legal to me by the 2004 rules as the team starts work after the kickoff, but does anyone know what the non-diclosure rules are? Are students allowed to help build the field? And does anyone know how long they get to build the field?
For the Rochester regional, I know there are several corporations that have teams sponsoring the regional, and I know they(or at least one of the teams) are building a field, as they are raffling it off to a rookie team that attends, which is definitely an awesome gesture!
I think its really neat that they can have fields at the remote kickoffs, as long as teams aren't trying to gain that advantage in order to start planning early. Id say this one is fair.
Al Skierkiewicz
04-01-2005, 23:47
I think Natchez said it best. They packed up the demo field (which for obvious reasons cannot be an entire field) and carried it back to where they practice and reassembled it. They are actually at a disadvantage because in the time it takes them to disassemble, pack, transport, and unpack the demo field, the other teams have already started building their real field. Considering the hosts need to keep the field set up until the last team leaves and then clean up the space and secure everything, I think the host team is losing out.
Three cheers for host teams!!!
This sounds legal to me by the 2004 rules as the team starts work after the kickoff, but does anyone know what the non-diclosure rules are? Are students allowed to help build the field? And does anyone know how long they get to build the field?
For the Rochester regional, I know there are several corporations that have teams sponsoring the regional, and I know they(or at least one of the teams) are building a field, as they are raffling it off to a rookie team that attends, which is definitely an awesome gesture!
I think its really neat that they can have fields at the remote kickoffs, as long as teams aren't trying to gain that advantage in order to start planning early. Id say this one is fair.
I can speak for the Canadian Regional (now GTA)
When we first started the gentleman that agreed to build the field had to sign non disclosure documents with FIRST. I believe that now GM is building the fields and they are under the same rules. I have been at the kick off site when the field arrives which at the earliest is noon the day before kick off. Seeing that I am a volunteer and help unload and set up the pieces you might say that I have a slight advantage but with all of the work involved with set up and kick off there is really no time to think of it. There are also no rules, just field specs that the builders see. I am also not allowed to talk to my team after seeing the pieces. I believe that other kick offs work pretty much the same but I cannot vouch for that.
Mike Rush
05-01-2005, 10:35
Anyone happen to know which teams do build fields for kickoffs?
For the past few years In AZ there was a field built but by employees of the GM Desert Proving Ground, the sponsoring company of the Gila Monsters, and not by the team mentors. After the kickoff, the field is 'sold' to cover the cost of materials to a lucky raffle winner from those attending the kickoff. For the past couple of years, there were enough parts of the field built (additional ones if needed) so that there were two half fields for two lucky raffle winners.
(Thanks GM and team 64)
As far as I can tell, it is ok. We have no idea what the rules are that FIRST imposed on the host team, but if they followed all the non-disclosure rules, that should mean they followed all applicable rules.
I know that on 116, we always got a real rough and dirty mock up built on Saturday for Stubot on Sunday. It would be things like wheeled trashcans for the mobile goals and kickballs, but it would allow us to form a strategy.
Wetzel
Voted "legal, and church is neither here nor there"
I know my senior year (2001) the technokats hosted one of the first remote kickoffs and first had us build the barrier for the field, but we knew nothing about the object in side the field. One goal was built by a local company which signed the nondisclosure agreement. We used both of these all season. Thing may have changed now but based on what I have seen it is legal.
663.keith
05-01-2005, 21:40
This is definately leagal. If a team really wanted to they could purchase the exact same stuff, and build their own. I see nothing wrong with them taking the demo field
Sidney San Martín
05-01-2005, 22:57
They packed up the demo field (which for obvious reasons cannot be an entire field)…
Wait... I can't see the obvious reasons. It would seem that the demo field would be the best and most complete field to support demonstrations and look cool at the kickoff. What would be missing?
I'm still relatively new, so bear with me while I build my FIRST personal obviousness database.
By the way, I voted semi-legal. I can't see why this action would be wrong, but it is an unfair advantage to have extra time and advance specs.
Wait... I can't see the obvious reasons. It would seem that the demo field would be the best and most complete field to support demonstrations and look cool at the kickoff. What would be missing?
I'm still relatively new, so bear with me while I build my FIRST personal obviousness database.
By the way, I voted semi-legal. I can't see why this action would be wrong, but it is an unfair advantage to have extra time and advance specs.
What would be missing?
For example, at San Jose State in 2003 only half the ramp was built (Or they just didnt bring in the other half)
To build all of last year's field would have been insane and taken up A LOT of space that Im sure most remote kickoff sites don't have.
phrontist
06-01-2005, 00:21
The remote kickoffs have feilds?! VCU didn't last year did it? So you're telling me some teams get advanced specs... why haven't we seen these!!!
Katie Reynolds
06-01-2005, 00:38
The remote kickoffs have feilds?! VCU didn't last year did it? So you're telling me some teams get advanced specs... why haven't we seen these!!!Aside from attending a remote kickoff, I have very little experience with how they're actually run. But from what I've heard, volunteers (from comapanies who sponsor the host team, parents, etc) usually begin to piece together the field components. Keeping with gracious professionalism and fairness, the team knows nothing about what these volunteers are doing - just that they are, in fact, doing it. The volunteers set up the field at the remote kick-off site, and when the time comes, the field is unvailed to everyone's surprise - including the members of the host team(s).
That's my understanding of how the demonstration fields are set up at remote kickoffs.
Please, correct me if I am wrong.
The remote kickoffs have feilds?! VCU didn't last year did it? So you're telling me some teams get advanced specs... why haven't we seen these!!!
Some remote kickoff locations will sometimes have part of the field or some field elements present. This can be used as an "incentive" for a company/sponsor/venue to host a remote kickoff. FIRST will release only field specs to certain people who have signed NDA's (Non-Disclosure Agreements). So even though the field is being built, the game still isn't known to the builders. The Field is then property of the group that built it and the decision of what happens to it is up to them after the event. The people who are on the build group for remote kickoff equipment normally aren't on a team and are employees of the hosting facility or sponsor. The NDA acts as a way to keep these people from telling anyone what the field involves and normally you wont even know they are building the field. So yeah most remote kickoff events that are official events through FIRST will have some field object present.
But now i guess its my time to voice my opinion. I think that any team that goes through the organization and work to have a remote kickoff hosted more then deserves any field part that were developed for that event.
Hope that helps,
~Mike
Matt Krass
06-01-2005, 02:46
I have an issue with this for one reason.
True, the host team doesn't get the rules but, some field elements speak for themselves.
For instance the bar 2004, seems obvious to me what that's for even without rules, and the 14" barriers in 2003. You knew you needed a low robot to go under that. Sure it's only a day, but in 2003 those 'snow days' we got allowed us to finish an integral part of our robot, vastly improving it. One day can carry a lot. Forgive any typos I'm on my Pocket PC.
Al Skierkiewicz
06-01-2005, 07:20
Wait... I can't see the obvious reasons. It would seem that the demo field would be the best and most complete field to support demonstrations and look cool at the kickoff. What would be missing?
I'm still relatively new, so bear with me while I build my FIRST personal obviousness database.
By the way, I voted semi-legal. I can't see why this action would be wrong, but it is an unfair advantage to have extra time and advance specs.
At the remote kickoffs it is not necessary to have a complete field since all of the game is done in NH. The field pieces and movable goals (if any) are all that are required. The border, players stations, carpet, etc. is not needed.
Nowhere in the question does it say that Redateam builds the field. It does say that they organized and paid for the field. If the team did build the field, yes i agree that this is unfair. To my knowledge FIRST does not disclose any of the plans with teams. There may be a team mentor or someone associated with the team that builds the field but they would need to sign a non disclosure form. I do not see anything different in that case to say dlavery being on the game committee or any of the others that may be involved.
Nowhere in the question does it say that Redateam builds the field. It does say that they organized and paid for the field. If the team did build the field, yes i agree that this is unfair. To my knowledge FIRST does not disclose any of the plans with teams. There may be a team mentor or someone associated with the team that builds the field but they would need to sign a non disclosure form. I do not see anything different in that case to say dlavery being on the game committee or any of the others that may be involved.
It wouldn't really bother me if some teams got even the entire rule book early. Every year at the kickoff it's stressed that FIRST isn't fair; what difference will a couple days advance notice make with all the variables of budget, mentoring, etc. between teams anyway? The winners in FIRST are typically massive established teams with hordes of professional engineers. Is a little advance notice of the game really going to change a thing? I'm willing to bet that if the build season were extended by even a few weeks, there would still be just as many teams staying up all night the day before shipment. Advance notice to build a field won't give a team any significant advantage. Any thoughts?
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