View Full Version : Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
Can anyone with a higher knowledge of the workings of the color-sensitive cameras enumerate upon the possible problems that may arise from confusion between the green panelings of the vision goals and green shirts worn by certain teams?
In short, is it plausible that robots might be distracted by certain shades of t-shirt green and be thrown off course?
--Petey
What if you made your robot green to throw off other tracking bots? A little devious and non-GP, as I'll be the first to admit, but definitely a smart strategy...
Dave
I like the way you think, Mr. Toast. I like the way you think.
--Petey
billbuckner
08-01-2005, 14:09
What if you made your robot green to throw off other tracking bots? A little devious and non-GP, as I'll be the first to admit, but definitely a smart strategy...
Dave
Could be a problem if your partner also had a tracker.
karinka13
08-01-2005, 14:10
We're thinking the same thing over here...would flashing a green light or spray painting your robot green be legal? We still don't have manual access.
What if you made your robot green to throw off other tracking bots? A little devious and non-GP, as I'll be the first to admit, but definitely a smart strategy...
Dave
There's an interesting thought.
shyra1353
08-01-2005, 14:11
Could be a problem if your partner also had a tracker.
you do as Dave said .. communicate before the game and make sure you don't run into that problem ...
There's an interesting thought.
Rule <R26> claims "No devices or decorations are permitted on the robot that are intended to jam or interfere with the operation of the vision system (i.e. changing robot color to confuse opponent’s vision system)."
billbuckner
08-01-2005, 14:12
you do as Dave said .. communicate before the game and make sure you don't run into that problem ...
Or, use a switchable green light.
Jedi Padawan
08-01-2005, 14:14
yeah well think about it too if your goal is autonomously picking up that vision goal and your partners is too then you'll set there in a tug of war like on the animation... but you do have a valid point it could be a problem something we'll have to test I guess.
Noah Melamed
08-01-2005, 14:14
In The robot
<R26> No devices or decorations are permitted on the robot that are intended to jam or interfere with the operation of the vision system (i.e. changing robot color to confuse opponent’s vision system).
No mention of shirts though
Thanks for the info on R26.
I'll post about team shirts.
--Petey
Rule <R26> claims "No devices or decorations are permitted on the robot that are intended to jam or interfere with the operation of the vision system (i.e. changing robot color to confuse opponent’s vision system)."Our school color is green, it's not intended to interfere with the sensors...
karinka13
08-01-2005, 14:16
Rule <R26> claims "No devices or decorations are permitted on the robot that are intended to jam or interfere with the operation of the vision system (i.e. changing robot color to confuse opponent’s vision system)."
Now how would the judges know if it was intentional? I happen to like the color gren very much and would love to have a green bot... :D
Jay H 237
08-01-2005, 14:16
We're thinking the same thing over here...would flashing a green light or spray painting your robot green be legal? We still don't have manual access.
There is no rule against painting or anodizing your robot green (or any other color for that matter).
I haven't seen the sensors yet this year but I would hope they have the ability to adjust the sensitivity.
[EDIT] What I'm referring to per the rule is there's no rule against having a green bot to start with. You just can't change it's color from match to match.
There is no rule against painting or anodizing your robot green (or any other color for that matter).
I haven't seen the sensors yet this year but I would hope they have the ability to adjust the sensibility.
Actually, as has been posted, there is.
Check out rule R26 in section 5.
--Petey
billbuckner
08-01-2005, 14:21
Yeah, would have guessed that they have seen this comming.
Hey, Petey, it says your name in big letters above your posts.
--Petey
Hey, Petey, it says your name in big letters above your posts.
--Petey
Thank you, Roland. I am perfectly aware of that fact, naturally, but I appreciate your concern. :cool:
--Petey
BandChick
08-01-2005, 14:28
What about teams like MOE? They have always had Green robots and Green shirts, I doubt they would want to change that. The same goes for 233, are they not going to be allowed a pink robot this year?
Rule 26 says you aren't allowed to intefere INTENTIONALLY with the sensors, but that's just team spirit, not intentional distraction. In my book it doesn't seem fair to prevent these teams from their usual displays.
billbuckner
08-01-2005, 14:29
What about teams like MOE? They have always had Green robots and Green shirts, I doubt they would want to change that. The same goes for 233, are they not going to be allowed a pink robot this year?
Rule 26 says you aren't allowed to intefere INTENTIONALLY with the sensors, but that's just team spirit, not intentional distraction. In my book it doesn't seem fair to prevent these teams from their usual displays.
Yeah, but it seems even less fair to have a robot be unable to function due to an unrelated non-element of the game.
Well, then what is to stop my team from suddenly adopting this tradition?
If you paint your robot a color that you know will interfere with it, than isn't it intentional damage, since it is knowing damage?
I'd be surprised if FIRST doesn't explicate this.
--Petey
Jay H 237
08-01-2005, 14:33
According to the rule, the way it is currently written, is that you can't keep changing it's color to give you an advantage, but it doesn't say you can't have a green robot that you built as a green robot during the six weeks.
According to the rule, the way it is currently written, is that you can't keep changing it's color to give you an advantage, but it doesn't say you can't have a green robot that you built as a green robot during the six weeks.
Mmmm...chameleon robot.
I'm definitely asking FIRST this.
--Petey
billbuckner
08-01-2005, 14:39
I will be VERY suprised if they didn't think of this.
karinka13
08-01-2005, 14:40
I'm already VERY surprised they didn't use some other kinda sensor...like radio waves...or something
ebmonon36
08-01-2005, 15:39
Yeah, but it seems even less fair to have a robot be unable to function due to an unrelated non-element of the game.
I dont know the specs on the sensors, but I think MOE's green is light enough that it would know the difference between MOE green and vision-tetra green.
Eric
The cameras have a limeted field of view so it its unlikely that green shirts would distract them
Keep in mind that this also applies for red, blue, and yellow robots, because the tetras themselves are red and blue and the loading docks are yellow.
--Petey
tiffany34990
08-01-2005, 17:21
yeah i was thinking about this a lot-- for teams like swampthing and moe
but it does have to be directly in view-- hopefully it shouldn't mess things up that much
it seems like an interesting thing to do if you go against someone with that ability but as others stated it could hurt your partner
keep up the thinking ppl....:)
I'm already VERY surprised they didn't use some other kinda sensor...like radio waves...or something
Problem with that is you would have to have some sort of radio transmitter device on the Tetra (or some other such device to broadcast "I'm here!"). I know for a fact that the Tetras are going to see some heavy abuse; much more than the balls did last year. It probably wouldn't bode well for a transmitter to undergo a lot of shaking and movement. Likewise, it would be much more expensive.
Dave
kevin.fort
08-01-2005, 18:02
Problem with that is you would have to have some sort of radio transmitter device on the Tetra (or some other such device to broadcast "I'm here!"). I know for a fact that the Tetras are going to see some heavy abuse; much more than the balls did last year. It probably wouldn't bode well for a transmitter to undergo a lot of shaking and movement. Likewise, it would be much more expensive.
Dave
Wouldnt it be a good srategy to make your robot the color of the tetras so that all the other robots got messed up. if it really is that easy tyhen there can be some serious problems that result from that.
also i think the goal of the software is to focus on one thing and then follow that so maybe if you dont ask it to reaquire green or whatever in the middle of the run it would do just fine
Adare180
08-01-2005, 18:16
yeah i was thinking about this a lot-- for teams like swampthing and moe
but it does have to be directly in view-- hopefully it shouldn't mess things up that much
it seems like an interesting thing to do if you go against someone with that ability but as others stated it could hurt your partner
keep up the thinking ppl....:)
We were discussing this earlier, and I would have thought the people at FIRST would have thought this through. It seemed that in the webcast, Dave Lavery's shirt had to be pretty close to the robot. This season should be pretty intersting.
Wouldnt it be a good srategy to make your robot the color of the tetras so that all the other robots got messed up. if it really is that easy tyhen there can be some serious problems that result from that.
also i think the goal of the software is to focus on one thing and then follow that so maybe if you dont ask it to reaquire green or whatever in the middle of the run it would do just fine
I'm less worried about that than I am about my robot leaping bodily out of the ring and throttling me if it confused my blue shirt with a blue tetra.
--Petey
bigqueue
08-01-2005, 18:43
Now how would the judges know if it was intentional? I happen to like the color gren very much and would love to have a green bot... :D
I happen to know if a team in Vt that in fact has had a very nice looking Green robot. I'm sure this will be a question asked to First....it will be interesting to see what the answer is. (will teams be forced to give-up their identity color!)
-Quentin
Al Skierkiewicz
08-01-2005, 19:09
I am less concerned about a false trigger on the vision system from green anythings, (including humans) than I am about variations in lighting from venue to venue. When a material looks green to you it may not appear green to a camera depending on the color of the light. It may not even appear to a camera if the light is reflecting in the right way. I think that if you read the paper on visualization you might get a better handle on how this recognition works. I would think a robot would only get in trouble if it had a green stripe of approx the same height and width as the tetra and the same altitude and texture. What I am saying is test like crazy to be sure.
NoodleKnight
08-01-2005, 19:16
the CMU cam can't hardware adjust it's sensitivity. Physically, the CMU cam is made of two pieces, the camera and the gpu. You can adjust the camera's focus; I'm not sure what the supplied gpu can do, hardware wise. I use the CMU cam (older one) on my own robots, it's fairly sensitive to color differences until it starts loosing focus.
I happen to know if a team in Vt that in fact has had a very nice looking Green robot. I'm sure this will be a question asked to First....it will be interesting to see what the answer is. (will teams be forced to give-up their identity color!)
-Quentin
Exactly--885 would lose quite a bit of their identity.
Here is the (two part) question that I posted in the forum:
Regarding <R26>: Will there be any precautions taken--or any precautions necessary--to ensure that the cameras do not become attracted to robots or humans that are colored like field elements (eg clad in red, blue, green, yellow, silver?)
Clarifying Q. 981: Even if the intent is not to distract the robot? Since the cameras can be calibrated to sense many different colors, must some colors (& if so, which) be avoided by teams in decorating their robots and themselves?
Think about it--
If 811 built their normal red robot, and a team tried to sense the red tetras, the robot would be attracted to you, wouldn't it? Similarly, if a robot was built to sense the loading dock (yellow), and they went against Buzz, the Buzz robot could be mauled, couldn't it?
Interested to hear the answer. That's just one of the 7 or so questions I posted.
--Petey
I am less concerned about a false trigger on the vision system from green anythings, (including humans) than I am about variations in lighting from venue to venue. When a material looks green to you it may not appear green to a camera depending on the color of the light. It may not even appear to a camera if the light is reflecting in the right way. I think that if you read the paper on visualization you might get a better handle on how this recognition works. I would think a robot would only get in trouble if it had a green stripe of approx the same height and width as the tetra and the same altitude and texture. What I am saying is test like crazy to be sure.
Excellent point.
It will be difficult to test like that when you're concerned about other robots, though.
Think about it--that robot followed Dave around, and it also followed the green tetra, if I'm not mistaken. Those were wildly different greens.
--Petey
Greg Marra
08-01-2005, 19:44
Excellent point.
It will be difficult to test like that when you're concerned about other robots, though.
Think about it--that robot followed Dave around, and it also followed the green tetra, if I'm not mistaken. Those were wildly different greens.
--Petey
I do not believe they showed the robot following a green tetra. That was only in the CG-demo and the people-demo.
jedinite
08-01-2005, 20:06
Well, certain members of our team, who will remain unnamed
*cough* me *cough*
have already begun a list of the top things the judges *DON'T* want to hear this year. The top of the list - "Well, it's your own fault for wearing that color. Don't blame us!"
We're just worried 'cause our shirts look like almost the same colors as the blue tetras. That might be a problem in practicing. I guess the same is true for green teams and red teams in practice matches. All I know is that I've already been instructed never to wear my tie-dye around the robot... it's already tried to get me enough times. :eek:
Interesting then.
I just want to see the answer.
--Petey
Greg Marra
08-01-2005, 20:13
Interesting then.
I just want to see the answer.
--Petey
I notice a lot of people are posting about using the camera system to find "blue" and "red" and "yellow".
Really? My impression was you were just going to home into the green color that's only on the vision tetras. No need to look for other colors, the green is all you're interested in.
What was your thinking?
i really don't think that the colors will have that much of an effect, i have been thinking about this alot and i have also been looking up info on the sensors and a team should be able to set the sensors to only pick up the exact color and the sensor will mostly work in the area it is pointing in, remember in the kickoff the sensor was mounted high to follow Dave, since the tetras are kinda low to the ground there shouldn't be much of a problem. at least i hope not..
Daniel Brim
08-01-2005, 20:28
I notice a lot of people are posting about using the camera system to find "blue" and "red" and "yellow".
Really? My impression was you were just going to home into the green color that's only on the vision tetras. No need to look for other colors, the green is all you're interested in.
What was your thinking?
The loading stations have vision detectable red and blue on the floor by them; and the goals all have yellow HDPE triangles under them that can also be detected by the sensor.
-Daniel
Now we (Team 365) need to change our strategy. We were going to build a tetrahedral-shaped robot named TETRA painted MOE green.
Back to the drawing board... :D
rangersteve
08-01-2005, 20:30
i think the best solution for this problem is simply gracious professionalism.
if the green teams (including mine) limit the use of green on their robot and wear a apron or something until autonomous is over i think we all can have fun without any unfair advantage.
I hadn't thought about this but i will bring it up during the next meeting and suggest getting something for the field crew. I think all green teams should do the same.
Simply GRACIOUS PROFESSIONALISM!!!
Now we (Team 365) need to change our strategy. We were going to build a tetrahedral-shaped robot named TETRA painted MOE green.
Back to the drawing board... :D
u weren't spoused to tell anyone great now we have to start all over again with a new name...
I notice a lot of people are posting about using the camera system to find "blue" and "red" and "yellow".
Really? My impression was you were just going to home into the green color that's only on the vision tetras. No need to look for other colors, the green is all you're interested in.
What was your thinking?
I think that some teams will use it to home in on other colors. If you wanted your robot to go straight to the loading dock during autonomous mode so you could start picking up tetras ASAP, this would be the logical choice. And if there was another yellow robot, it could be devastating, no?
--Petey
Why do the red, blue, and yellow really matter?
I can understand the green, but not the red yellow, and blue
Specialagentjim
08-01-2005, 21:04
[Cheap 70s Batman Narrator voice] Could this be the end of the fearful MOE? Could this be the start of the demise of thunderchickens? Tune in next week to find out! [/Cheap 70s Batman Narrator voice]
Seriously though, the question I think a lot of people are asking about is the unintentional locking on to a green robot. I think the more valid concern is a devious team painting their robot green and playing "follow the leader" with the other robots.
Not that I don't think it would be hilarious to watch any green team get chased around a field by three opponents, it just wouldn't be in the (dare I say it) "Spirit of the rules".
Why do the red, blue, and yellow really matter?
I can understand the green, but not the red yellow, and blue
Red and blue are tetra colors.
Yellow is the color of the HDPE panels.
Not that I don't think it would be hilarious to watch any green team get chased around a field by three opponents, it just wouldn't be in the (dare I say it) "Spirit of the rules".
It's actually explicitly outlawed in Section 5.3, rule <R26>
--Petey
BandChick
08-01-2005, 21:20
I think Kyle is right, it probably WONT be a problem. Either the lighting requirements will be very specific or the flashy colors won't be in the same location as the sensors. I don't know how many people are really going to bother with blue, red, and yellow, seeing as it's purpose is the same idea. Unless you want to like...have your robot go for an opposing color. Hrm...
Red and blue are tetra colors.
They are also the color of the panels at the loading stations, if you were so inclined to go there.
All I have to say is ThunderChickens...
We are a veteran team with our green colored shirts. The programmers havent had a chance to experiment with color settings but you can believe it when we say we will test colors and lighting like none other.
Just to toss something out there... the controller is definitely powerful even though all programmers gripe. A comparison between colors might not be a bad idea taking into account that the carpet is the same color gray. If at beginning of match, take a reading of the carpet and then look for something 'different.' You can expand on that to include ranges for the different readings of red vs blue vs yellow vs green vs gray with some finesse. This is just an idea, I cant say it will work but I do know that 1. Treat the camera as a digital switch cannot be a bad idea where it sees carpet or something 2. We and other teams will probably be investigating the camera very deeply.
Our robot when wearing its protective skirt last year was definitely a 4.5' x 30" x 36" 'ThunderChicken Green' blob riding on anodized blue.
It will be interesting to see what FIRST says.
I'll make sure to post FIRST's reply.
--Petey
aaronD341
08-01-2005, 23:00
If they make any new rules regarding shirts well then my sympothy goes out to you MOE
Enterprize
09-01-2005, 00:53
A comparison between colors might not be a bad idea taking into account that the carpet is the same color gray. If at beginning of match, take a reading of the carpet and then look for something 'different.' You can expand on that to include ranges for the different readings off red vs blue vs yellow vs green vs gray with some finesse.
That actually sounds (to me) like a very good idea, it could most likely help with lighting differences encountered between practice competition.
But what sounds good in theory does not always work well in reality -_-; so we'll see
I personally never thought of this.
I'm pretty sure they're not going to ban the use of all greens, reds, blues, and yellows.
But this does indeed pose a problem.
Question: I know the tetras are blue and red, but what would you need to seek them out for? Unless maybe from the automated loading dock (in autonomous mode)... but surely you wouldn't make them look for the blue/red on the vision tetras, because it'd be twice the work, right?
RbtGal1351
09-01-2005, 01:13
whoah whoah whoah, do we know what SHADE of green we'll be going for??? we didnt get a sample of green in OUR kit! (and it wasnt on the list either). :confused:
sooo will we just test w/ some sort of nylon green? what if its different?!!?! :ahh:
Question: I know the tetras are blue and red, but what would you need to seek them out for? Unless maybe from the automated loading dock (in autonomous mode)... but surely you wouldn't make them look for the blue/red on the vision tetras, because it'd be twice the work, right?
You might be able to put your robot into a tetra-seeking mode on the other side of the field.
Or, you might send it to find automated loading docks and load during autonomous.
Or, it might just latch on to another team's blue or red robot. Forget the tetras.
--Petey
something
09-01-2005, 01:23
Can anyone with a higher knowledge of the workings of the color-sensitive cameras enumerate upon the possible problems that may arise from confusion between the green panelings of the vision goals and green shirts worn by certain teams?
In short, is it plausible that robots might be distracted by certain shades of t-shirt green and be thrown off course?
--Petey
From the brief look at the software (I didn't have a 12v battery charged so I couldn't test anything :-( ) I believe there is someway to create a dead zone that the camera will ignore. The camera can be connected to the computer and used w/ a java application so that colors can be adjusted and matching patterns can be tested. I'm not sure if the data is downloaded into the carmera or if the configuration must be included in the programming
David
emusteve
09-01-2005, 02:00
I noticed that there was a section on colors in the FIRST documents page, but the link was broken when I tried to retreive it.
I have to admit that as soon as I saw those green tetras, I could envision 5 bots converging on a certain team's robot and trying to pick it up. :-)
But I think that distractions on the field are simply something we're going to have to take into account and deal with.
Steve
Question: I know the tetras are blue and red, but what would you need to seek them out for? Unless maybe from the automated loading dock (in autonomous mode)... but surely you wouldn't make them look for the blue/red on the vision tetras, because it'd be twice the work, right?
You'd look for blue or red to find the panel on the ground in front of the loading stations, so you could go over there during autonomous, I presume.
whoah whoah whoah, do we know what SHADE of green we'll be going for??? we didnt get a sample of green in OUR kit! (and it wasnt on the list either). :confused:
sooo will we just test w/ some sort of nylon green? what if its different?!!?! :ahh:
There's documentation on FIRST's website that tells you how to make the appropriate colors. The link is down at the moment, but I think you may be able to get it in one of the other documents. Here's the link in case it comes back:
http://www2.usfirst.org/2005comp/2005_Target_Paint_Colors.PDF
TheOtherTaylor
09-01-2005, 02:26
Wouldn't the opponents wearing green shirts be too far away? The bot in the demonstration didn't pick up the shirt till he was really near the bot. It might not have been on before, but do those things have long range?
Steve Howland
09-01-2005, 10:33
I don't think it will really be a problem in most cases:
Assume your robot is programmed to begin looking for green as soon as the match starts. To avoid robots running into one another, the bot looking for the tetra (decided upon by the alliance) would probably be in the "B" position (the one a little forward). It would somehow do a sweep of the field looking for green in a few quick seconds, and once it saw something green it would move towards it. For an ally to be the target, it would have to race out and get in the way of the green-sensing robot before it found either vision tetra. For an opponent to be the target, it would need to race across the field and be noticed by the robot before either tetra was seen, which would be pretty tough and clearly the only reason to do that would be interference, which the judges would notice and then penalize the team.
scottm87
09-01-2005, 11:46
The vision system has a few different modes. One mode (that most directly applies to the challenge) returns the location and bounding boxes of blobs of color. In the code, it most likely takes these bounding boxes, sorts them by the similarity to the target color, and plots a path depending on the blob's X position or something. It would not be difficult to A) decrease the range of colors or B) apply another level of filtering to determine the height of the blob off the playing field to filter out humans or robots (tall ones at least).
All I am waiting for is someone to pick up a serial CompactFlash interface that are always in Circuit Cellar, and write the frame captures and show a post-match movie :).
Greg Marra
09-01-2005, 12:13
Regarding using the camera to find the loading stations and/or goals:
You know exactly where these are. The camera would be less important in locating them then it would be the vision tetras. If this new scripting language works as well as it looks like it does, you can very easily dead reckon to exactly where you want to be, sans camera.
This does seem like a large problem. Our Team 773 The Kingsville Kukes have always been green we use green to promote our local Green Houses. this is a large role in our funding. I don't see First telling us we cant use green on our robot. Also are they specifying a paint that the tetras will be done in. it would be a shame to program for weeks to a specific shade of blue and have it not work at competition.
Jeffrafa
09-01-2005, 14:53
why don't you go work with the vision system some before you go needlessly arguing over green robots, green shirts, and other distractions. IF in the process of trying to make it work you find that it is easily thrown off, then come here to ask questions about how to correct this problem in detection.
Its something any of us interested in vision will half to test, but just ranting back and fourth about all the possibilities of false detection without ever trying the system is a huge waste of time.
Personally, my guess is the focal range of the camera won't be entirely too large, probably green robots on the other side of the field won't be a problem, and defenitely a crowd in the background won't matter, but i'm anxious to work with the vision system before i commit to saying this is the case.
But i urge you - go try something with it before you sit here on chiefdelphi and needlessly banter back and fourth over it, without experience with the device you have no way of knowing, but by working with it some you can learn an awful lot.
Rickertsen2
09-01-2005, 15:29
I Have done some experimentation with the CMU cam and this may very well be a problem with primitive code implementations such as the one provided by FIRST. In order to set the sensors to work reliably in a broad range of light conditions it is necessary to make the tracked color range somewhat large. I have seen some team T-Shirts that pretty closely match the vision tetra colors. The good news is that there are some simple (well relatively) techniques to prevent this by mounting/aiming the camera properly and having a good understanding of the camera's virtual window settings, noise filter settings and how to use them. I feel that FIRST has already babied everyone enough so i am not goign to hold your hand and write your code for you, but i will help with any questions.
unapiedra
09-01-2005, 16:22
There is no rule against painting or anodizing your robot green (or any other color for that matter).
[EDIT] What I'm referring to per the rule is there's no rule against having a green bot to start with. You just can't change it's color from match to match.
To what rule are you refering to regarding you can start but cannot change to the green color?
To what rule are you refering to regarding you can start but cannot change to the green color?
rule R26 in section 5 page 11 it says " No devices are permitted on the robot that are intended to jam or interfere with the operation of the vision system
( i.e changing robot color to confuse opponent's vision system."
Mark McLeod
09-01-2005, 18:19
Now we (Team 365) need to change our strategy. We were going to build a tetrahedral-shaped robot named TETRA painted MOE green.
Back to the drawing board... :DNow that'll be a sight to see.
Wait until your first regional and five other robots converge on MOE, hoist it up and cap a goal with you.:yikes:
JBotAlan
09-01-2005, 18:29
rule R26 in section 5 page 11 it says " No devices are permitted on the robot that are intended to jam or interfere with the operation of the vision system
( i.e changing robot color to confuse opponent's vision system."
As much as I understand your argument, I think it would just be safer to not use any green paint this year. I would hate to get to inspection and have them tell me that I can't put the 'bot on the field because it's green. Everyone will be trying to get their green 'bots through inspection saying that their team colors include green. It would be good to not be at the mercy of the judges.
Al Skierkiewicz
09-01-2005, 18:40
The vision system has a few different modes. One mode (that most directly applies to the challenge) returns the location and bounding boxes of blobs of color. In the code, it most likely takes these bounding boxes, sorts them by the similarity to the target color, and plots a path depending on the blob's X position or something. It would not be difficult to A) decrease the range of colors or B) apply another level of filtering to determine the height of the blob off the playing field to filter out humans or robots (tall ones at least).
All I am waiting for is someone to pick up a serial CompactFlash interface that are always in Circuit Cellar, and write the frame captures and show a post-match movie :).
I think Scott and a few others are on to something here. The sensor is a camera capable of color matching and shape matching. It is not just a color sensor. I think we are blowing this out of proportion. Thunder chickens, don't change your shirt color and other teams don't worry about your robot color and MCs don't go for black shirts until we get some real data about the software and the camera. There are some pretty cool and knowledgeable people at IFI and FIRST, don't you think they would have thought of the problems.
A few items that you might want to consider before you go heading down too many blind alleys:
- There are three possible starting locations for your robot. Pick any of the three. You know what the field should look like from that vantage point.
- There are eight possible starting locations for the vision tetras. Those locations relative to the robot starting locations are known and fixed.
- The number of robot location/vision tetra position permutations is finite.
- The CMUcamII allows you to trim the field of view to a pre-defined area of the video frame, so extraneous items that are not of interest (ie. off-field items) can be ignored.
- For a given field of view, if two or more objects of the target color are in view and the CMUcamII is requested to locate the target, it will return the location (in X-Y coordinates within the frame) of the largest color blob of the desired color.
- For a set of given obejcts of the same size, closer objects will appear larger (duh!)
So you really have only one question to ask: can you use the camera to look from a given point toward another given point, and determine if the second point is occupied by a certain known object or not?
-dave
Thanks, Dave. I'm fairly sure I understood some fraction of that.
I'm not sure if it completely solves the problem, but it provides some direction, at least. Although - For a given field of view, if two or more objects of the target color are in view and the CMUcamII is requested to locate the target, it will return the location (in X-Y coordinates within the frame) of the largest color blob of the desired color. scares me.
I'll forward this on over to the controls people.
I'm still waiting on the "official answer" from the FRC Q&A forum, for anyone who is breathlessly awaiting it.
During our Kickoff meeting, we brought this up. The CMUcamI, which we used in a different competition last year to track a orange cone, could pick it up at around 30-45 feet depending on lighting, so, this being CMUcamII, it would imply that it might have a longer range. One solution to just finding the colors on the field would be to mount it low to the ground and to angle it forwards, to limit the distractions it can recieve from its sorroundings.
Edit: During the competition, one of the other robots did chase someone from the crowd who was wearing a brightly colored red shirt when it was going for a orange cone.
Salik Syed
09-01-2005, 23:24
hmmmm.... maybe they don't want it so easy.....
i'm sure you could program in SOFTWARE to ensure that it is a vision tetra...
i.e after recognizing the green color you measure the length of the green... like move the camera left and right and see how long it takes to "lose" the green ....
i'm sure you could also adjsut the camera to dif light settings based on the beginning of the match... maybe make your robot drive forward to a known positon of color and register that value to calibrate the camera... however if there is ALOT of variable settings like diamond plate reflecting more light near the starting point etc.. some difficulties may come up!
Take a good look at the camera documentation. You will find several things that will help you out.
1) Each object is tracked by a bounding box. This is key. Remember it. Its important. Don't forget it! A bounding box is the smallest possible box that will enclose the color object. Consider the difference in view between a person in a shirt and a vision tetra. What can the bounding box tell you?
2) The field of view of the camera isn't as wide as you would think.
3) The percieved size of a distant object is related to the sine function. A good hint: Percieved Height is sort of = Height * (1 / radius). Draw a picture, think about what sine is, and see if you can figure that one out.
Kevin
i wonder how the sensor would work if a competition was held at chatsworth high school all the lights are ORANGE!!!! hahahahahahah :D
Robotics Dude
10-01-2005, 01:43
Now that'll be a sight to see.
Wait until your first regional and five other robots converge on MOE, hoist it up and cap a goal with you.:yikes:
That would be something to see. But Id be a little scared when i saw a robot picking up another 120 lb robot without breaking.
Al Skierkiewicz
10-01-2005, 07:17
Guys,
Dave has spoken, read and believe, then get to work.
RoboticsDude, we've done that, many times. No damage, dents build character.
Tytus Gerrish
11-01-2005, 17:38
Teams Like Us Moe And Element All Have Bright Lime Green robots. im shure if you want your robots sensors to work you should probaly take some time to discriminate dark green from lime green
Update from the FIRST Q&A. Please take note that these aren't official until they are addressed in an official manual update (as Q&A's are occasionally contridicted or flip flopped).
ID: 981 Section: 5.3.4 Status: Answered Date Answered: 1/11/2005
Q: Regarding <R26>: Will there be any precautions taken--or any precautions necessary--to ensure that the cameras do not become attracted to robots or humans that are colored like field elements (eg clad in red, blue, green, yellow, silver?)
A: No.
ID: 982 Section: 5.3.4 Status: Answered Date Answered: 1/11/2005
Q: Clarifying Q. 981: Even if the intent is not to distract the robot? Since the cameras can be calibrated to sense many different colors, must some colors (& if so, which) be avoided by teams in decorating their robots and themselves?
A: No.
JBotAlan
12-01-2005, 10:29
Which mode do you think the cam was in when they had the demo during the kickoff? I saw it followed the guy's green shirt, but his shirt's color is different from vision tetra green. If they had it calibrated for tetra green and it followed his shirt, can it really discriminate between his shirt and the tetra? I still have yet to even power up the cam, but that should happen today.
Update from the FIRST Q&A. Please take note that these aren't official until they are addressed in an official manual update (as Q&A's are occasionally contridicted or flip flopped).
...
Good, because I'd hate not to have our Robot Skirt again this year just because the color of the tetras is ThunderChicken Green.:D
Just a thought here. Yes it is LEGAL to have your robot any color that you may want. But, and this is absolutely not an "Official FIRST Position" or anything, just an independent thought (I am allowed to have one per week... :) ), you have to ask yourself if it is SMART to have your robot certain colors. If you pick a color for your robot that you know is very close to the color of certain objects that will be sought by the vision system, what will be the result?
You know that the vision systems of the robots on the field will be calibrated to look for green. If your robot is a similar hue, then you know there is a significant probability that it will be detected by the vision system of the other robots - INCLUDING YOUR ALLIANCE PARTNERS. After about the second time that an alliance partner robot is prevented from grabbing the vision tetra and scoring bonus points because your robot was a confusing color and distracted their vision system, your team is likely to become a pariah. If I were an alliance captain picking teams for the elimination rounds, I don't care how freaking good your robot may be, I would never ever pick you as a partner if I saw you repeatedly screw up the autonomous period performance of your own alliance. The risk to the alliance would just be too great. There are lots of other implications as well, but I think you get the point.
So, once again, it comes down to a simple question: coloring your robot green (or even yellow, the color of the targets in the goals) may be legal, but is it smart?
Which mode do you think the cam was in when they had the demo during the kickoff? I saw it followed the guy's green shirt, but his shirt's color is different from vision tetra green. If they had it calibrated for tetra green and it followed his shirt, can it really discriminate between his shirt and the tetra? I still have yet to even power up the cam, but that should happen today.
For the kickoff demo, the camera was calibrated for the color of my shirt. It was able to properly discriminate between the shirt and the green vision tetras.
-dave
Once everyone is able to use the sensors and see how well they are able to detect different shades or a color is when we will all know if it is truly smart to have a green robot and what shade if green at all. Thank you Dave for clearing up most of this mess about the sensors and how smart it is to use green or yellow color bots. If MOE green does have a negative effect with the sensors then MOE can be mostly black with green on it but we most likely will always keep MOE green on our shirts, robots and everything else that we can get our hands on. Teams that also use green as there color should be able to use another color that is identified with their team. ex. MOE is green and BLACK so using black is still ok because it is still one of our colors. Another question about the sensors, Last year our robot had "kilts" that were colored black and green plad pattern would that also draw the sensors to us or would the non flat color keep us safe?
Lets wait a week or so and play with the sensors and see what we learn then the question will be answered.
MikeDubreuil
12-01-2005, 14:50
Once everyone is able to use the sensors and see how well they are able to detect different shades or a color is when we will all know if it is truly smart to have a green robot and what shade if green at all. Thank you Dave for clearing up most of this mess about the sensors and how smart it is to use green or yellow color bots. If MOE green does have a negative effect with the sensors then MOE can be mostly black with green on it but we most likely will always keep MOE green on our shirts, robots and everything else that we can get our hands on. Teams that also use green as there color should be able to use another color that is identified with their team. ex. MOE is green and BLACK so using black is still ok because it is still one of our colors. Another question about the sensors, Last year our robot had "kilts" that were colored black and green plad pattern would that also draw the sensors to us or would the non flat color keep us safe?
Lets wait a week or so and play with the sensors and see what we learn then the question will be answered.
I think what Dave is saying is that if you decide to use green on your robot you are playing with fire. Honestly, most people know MOE's traditional team colors but nobody is going to care and will become irate with you if you mess up their autonomous mode. Quite frankly, if you keep a green color on your robot knowing it might jeopardize someone's autonomous mode you are being completely selfish.
You know that the vision systems of the robots on the field will be calibrated to look for green. If your robot is a similar hue, then you know there is a significant probability that it will be detected by the vision system of the other robots - INCLUDING YOUR ALLIANCE PARTNERS. After about the second time that an alliance partner robot is prevented from grabbing the vision tetra and scoring bonus points because your robot was a confusing color and distracted their vision system, your team is likely to become a pariah.
So, once again, it comes down to a simple question: coloring your robot green (or even yellow, the color of the targets in the goals) may be legal, but is it smart?
Dave makes a very good point here - One that I didn't think of. Being bright green may be cool, but it could be a turnoff if you have an alliance going for the Vision Tetras. Also, Dave gets a bonus Krispie Kreme for making me break out my dictionary to look up "pariah." ;)
Once everyone is able to use the sensors and see how well they are able to detect different shades or a color is when we will all know if it is truly smart to have a green robot and what shade if green at all.
Bad news Kyle: It looks as if the paint being used is nearly identical to MOE Green and ThunderChicken Green. :mad:
P.S. - pa·ri·ah http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3 Fq%3Dpariah) ( P ) Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html) (phttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gif-rhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/imacr.gifhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gif)
n.
A social outcast: “Shortly Tom came upon the juvenile pariah of the village, Huckleberry Finn, son of the town drunkard” (Mark Twain).
An Untouchable.
I think what Dave is saying is that if you decide to use green on your robot you are playing with fire. Honestly, most people know MOE's traditional team colors but nobody is going to care and will become irate with you if you mess up their autonomous mode. Quite frankly, if you keep a green color on your robot knowing it might jeopardize someone's autonomous mode you are being completely selfish. I am not saying it like that, What i meant is we are going to be testing the sensors to see what the color differences it can pick up, IF our green dose have an effect or even if a large majority of people on these forums say that green has an effect we will gladly not have a green robot in the spirit of GP. I was trying to say that we will find a way to have green somewhere in places that will not effect other teams sensors. I am sorry if I sounded like we were going to use green no matter what that was not what i intended to say, what i was trying to say is that since we have no all tried everything with the new sensors there is still a possibility that green wont have an effect, most likely it will though, and if it does, we as a team will take the appropriate actions when we decorate our robot so not to have a negative effect on any other team.
DantheMan
12-01-2005, 18:40
We're thinking the same thing over here...would flashing a green light or spray painting your robot green be legal? We still don't have manual access.
It is illegal to have anything that can distract another robot.
the_undefined
12-01-2005, 20:14
I don't see any problems with Green Robot / T-Shirts guys. :rolleyes:
shotgunking777
12-01-2005, 20:19
hey what if you made a robot to throw out like a green flag into the field
ha think about that but don't steal it.....
Mike Schroeder
12-01-2005, 21:34
hey what if you made a robot to throw out like a green flag into the field
ha think about that but don't steal it.....
well then you would be intentionally removing a part of your robot and that is illeagal in accordance of G24
<G24> Robots may not intentionally detach parts, or leave multiple MECHANISMS on the field. Violations will
result in a 10 point penalty. If a detached COMPONENT or MECHANISM is attached to a goal and prevents
additional STACKING of TETRAS, the team will be disqualified.
Kevin Sevcik
12-01-2005, 22:16
well then you would be intentionally removing a part of your robot and that is illeagal in accordance of G24
A new thought. what if you slapped a panel on your robot that was mostly the same size and shape as the panel on a vision tetra? Then write some fast dead reckoning routines and see if you can occupy the possible position of an opponent's vision tetra in time to distract and confuse their vision system. If you can do this along with other useful things, it makes you a prime partner for a team that is already really good with the vision tetra.
AnimatorSarah
12-01-2005, 23:39
The only thing I could see maybe throwing that off is that there are so many dirrent spots the vision tetras could be in. It would seem you would almost have to program a Dead reckoning program for each position which are randomly selected.
I'd also be worried about if that would be concerned a knowledgeable effort to mess with the opposing robots autonomous mode.
But if this was legal all round I could see where this could be useful.
the_undefined
13-01-2005, 00:43
A new thought. what if you slapped a panel on your robot that was mostly the same size and shape as the panel on a vision tetra? Then write some fast dead reckoning routines and see if you can occupy the possible position of an opponent's vision tetra in time to distract and confuse their vision system. If you can do this along with other useful things, it makes you a prime partner for a team that is already really good with the vision tetra.
R26 forbidds any additional parts that are intendet to interfer with any of the sensors or the vision system ...
FIRST JerseyKid
13-01-2005, 01:11
I just hope that in practice the robots dont start attacking fans. I think FIRST is plotting against moe just like when they said no more sticks and load objects.
I just hope that in practice the robots dont start attacking fans. I think FIRST is plotting against moe just like when they said no more sticks and load objects.
Now remember that I wasnt the first one to say this but....... j/k :) The sensors wont be able to reach out of the feild to attack fans, also the sensors should be pointed down so they can pick up the vision tetras and yellow markers under the goals.
personally, i wish you would all grow up and stop this nonsensical babbling about being a pain to all the other teams and focus on strats which show a slight level of non selfish playing, and that are legal. as to people "losing" their team colors, i see no reason you cant stick with your aluminum channel and some good ol' Mother's. you would make your pit green and stuff like that. you could even interject a little humor into it and paint something on your robot like: "THIS CHASSIS WAS SUPPOSED TO BE GREEN...", or "THIS IS GREEN IN REALITY"(painted blue).
on a lighter note, our sensor was not able to pick up a person in a green shirt from 30 feet and the field is what 54ish?
I have a definite feeling that FIRST is going to change the color sensors at the last moment to something like a purple. If thats even possible....
Then again they can pretty much do whatever during a match.
-Z o N e
<R26> No devices or decorations are permitted on the robot that are intended to jam or interfere with the
operation of the vision system (i.e. changing robot color to confuse opponent’s vision system).
Kevin Sevcik
13-01-2005, 12:31
R26 forbidds any additional parts that are intendet to interfer with any of the sensors or the vision system ...
As quoted above, R26 forbids you from jamming or interfering with the vision system. a green panel would just distract the robot's program. the camera would be working perfectly, just looking at the wrong thing. If you could pull it off quick enough you'd have a 33% chance of confusing your opponent. This is assuming you have a good alliance that doesn't need your help elsewhere during autonomous.
shotgunking777
13-01-2005, 13:48
hey what if you made a robot to throw out like a green flag into the field
ha think about that but don't steal it.....
well okay and if they doesn't work just make like a flag or somthing that will fly up but still a part of your robot.
well okay and if they doesn't work just make like a flag or somthing that will fly up but still a part of your robot. Look, guys - It comes down to one thing: Gracious Professionalism and INTENT of the rules. (OK, that's two things)
The INTENT is that your team should not INTENTIONALLY screw around with other teams' vision sensors. Having a flag or something the exact same color as the vision tetras to INTENTIONALLY distract another robot may or may not be against the rules, but it is probably not GP.
On the other hand, having your robot being your team colors would definitely not be against the rules, and may or may not be GP, depending on what your motivation is. But like Dave said, it's probably not a smart thing to do if your alliance relies on getting the vision tetras and goes after your robot instead.
Kevin Sevcik
13-01-2005, 14:25
Look, guys - It comes down to one thing: Gracious Professionalism and INTENT of the rules. (OK, that's two things)
The INTENT is that your team should not INTENTIONALLY screw around with other teams' vision sensors. Having a flag or something the exact same color as the vision tetras to INTENTIONALLY distract another robot may or may not be against the rules, but it is DEFINITELY not GP.
On the other hand, having your robot being your team colors would definitely not be against the rules, and may or may not be GP, depending on what your motivation is. But like Dave said, it's probably not a smart thing to do if your alliance relies on getting the vision tetras and goes after your robot instead.
GP can mean a lot of things. I'm reading the rule as not overloading the other team's camera with changing colors etc. So much so that it can no longer operate effectively. A Green decoy panel is just giving the camera something else to look at. The primary difference being that a decoy panel could potentially be programmed around. A jammed overloaded camera can't be programmed around.
As far as GP... there's lots of things that would be not GP if interfering with another team's autonomous mode is unGP. You couldn't bump them or get in their way or anything. The teams last year that tore out of the starting gate to put a goal in the way of the other robot were being unGP as well then.
techtiger1
13-01-2005, 14:33
Does anyone know the range of the cmu2cam. How far can it see ? any answers would be greatly appricated thanks.
As far as GP... there's lots of things that would be not GP if interfering with another team's autonomous mode is unGP. You couldn't bump them or get in their way or anything. The teams last year that tore out of the starting gate to put a goal in the way of the other robot were being unGP as well then.
Bumping somebody's robot, while it might interfere with a robot's autonomous program, is part of the game. It is possible to anticipate this and if you are really good, work around it using sensors. If you are indeed using guidance, rather than dead reckoning (gee I wonder why they call it that? ;) ) then a bump will be no more than an inconvienience.
But doing something deliberate to cause another's robot to see something that isn't there, is an entirely different matter. The nice term is "spoofing". It means making a something appear that isn't really there. The not so nice term is "lying". When you do this you are deliberately causing the sensor to tell the robot's RC an untruth. Lying is never GP.
If the rules specifically allowed this sort of thing and we were expected to cope, then that would be a different thing.
ChrisH
Rust-Oleum Fluorescent Green is the color being used on the plywood sides of the green vision tetras. There is a built in function in the camera that automatically attempts to adjust contrast and brightness until it has roughly equalized it (meaning about 50% of the pixels the camera is reading fall on one side of the spectrum, and 50% fall on the other). The good thing about this is that it permits colors to be recognized more accurately and consistently overall but the bad thing is that there aren't too many shades of brightness and contrast between MOE Green and the Rust-Oleum Fluorescent Green. Fortunately I think the RGB is different enough to maybe differentiate us from it, not that I particularly think the RGB has to be different at all, as I will explain later.
Here is the Rust-Oleum green indicated:
http://www.rustoleum.com/Product.asp?frm_product_id=37&SBL=1
Here is MOE Green: (Just check out the text/pictures)
http://www.moe365.org/
As Dave commented, there are many ways to avoid having your robot track another robot in autonomous. The camera draws the smallest possible square around any patch of the color it's looking for. It then reports the 4 coordinates to you. If you find the area of the square (not hard) you will be able to tell the relative size of the object you're looking at. Because it reports the coordinates instead of just the size of the picture it is also possible to tell the height of the object you're looking at, depending on how you mount your camera. The third way would be to limit the movement of your robot to your half of the field or to the vision tetra positions (harder to implement than to say, but possible). For something else to be the same size, height, color, and in about the same place as the tetra's panel it pretty much has to be intentional, even for we teams who are natural greens.
In regards to strategically painting your robot green. I do not foresee any physical damage coming to your robot from this because no one will be moving that fast if they're using the camera alone to guide them. Do not take this to mean that you can go on an intentionally distracting path in autonomous mode and expect to come out fine. I suspect that many people will not be using this camera at all and will, instead, be running their side of the field around at relatively high speeds in autonomous modes. If you got close enough to a side that your robot was relatively the size of a vision Tetra to an opponent looking with the camera then you'd probably be in the path of someone running around. There would be a big boom and you would feel silly because not only your distraction didn't work, but also your robot got broken before driver mode even started.
So few people are going to end up using the camera, which will required a phenomenal amount of debugging, that building a robot with the intent of distracting the tetra-tracking robots would be an ultimately unsuccessful strategy. If you did not build a robot specifically designed to distract other robots then it would probably be unable to take the abuse of the circuit riders.
Not to mention that intentionally distracting the camera is illegal via R26 and completely against the spirit of gracious professionalism.
PS. All of the information that I posted in this post is included and easily accessible in your Camera manual pdfs. If you want to know more go look it up. They do not list a specific focal length in any of the documentation I've read so far, so it will probably be up to testing. The range probably is dependant on the focus of your camera and the resolution of the camera's image.
Kevin Sevcik
13-01-2005, 17:37
Bumping somebody's robot, while it might interfere with a robot's autonomous program, is part of the game. It is possible to anticipate this and if you are really good, work around it using sensors. If you are indeed using guidance, rather than dead reckoning (gee I wonder why they call it that? ;) ) then a bump will be no more than an inconvienience.
But doing something deliberate to cause another's robot to see something that isn't there, is an entirely different matter. The nice term is "spoofing". It means making a something appear that isn't really there. The not so nice term is "lying". When you do this you are deliberately causing the sensor to tell the robot's RC an untruth. Lying is never GP.
If the rules specifically allowed this sort of thing and we were expected to cope, then that would be a different thing.
ChrisH
I'll just say that I don't agree with this interpretation of GP. I'm of the opinion that it is futile and silly to try to apply GP to the entire game. If my plan was lying to a robot, then removing tetras from under a goal is stealing. Pushing another robot is assault. Actually breaking another robot is commiting grievous bodily harm, even if accidental. I could go on, but I think my point is clear. The game is the game, and robots are robots. Anthropomorphizing the robots and their actions is just silly and leads to some very odd conclusions.
I've been in the position of having a robot blocked and effectively immobilized so that we could do nothing against our opponent to win the match. I never once thought that they weren't playing fair or were being unGP by preventing us from doing anything. I was highly frustrated, but accepted the fact that they'd out-thought us and had a better designed robot. Or used their robot more effectively.
Ok no one can possible argue with this:
<R93> Decorations must not affect the outcome of the match, and must be in the spirit of “Gracious
Professionalism.”
Whether or not your distracting the other teams robot is GP doesnt matter, because you "must not affect the outcome of the match". If you cannot affect the outcome of the match you would be better off just avoiding putting green on your robot, because a) you would be more likely to screw with your own alliances robots than those of the other alliance and b) when you did screw with your alliances robots, and you tried to protest the match on the grounds that your decorations had affected the outcome (by making your team loose), the judges would probly just reply with some equivalent of "that sucks for you"
Kevin Sevcik
14-01-2005, 08:41
Ok no one can possible argue with this:
<R93> Decorations must not affect the outcome of the match, and must be in the spirit of “Gracious
Professionalism.”
Whether or not your distracting the other teams robot is GP doesnt matter, because you "must not affect the outcome of the match". If you cannot affect the outcome of the match you would be better off just avoiding putting green on your robot, because a) you would be more likely to screw with your own alliances robots than those of the other alliance and b) when you did screw with your alliances robots, and you tried to protest the match on the grounds that your decorations had affected the outcome (by making your team loose), the judges would probly just reply with some equivalent of "that sucks for you"
R93 concerns non-functional decorations that don't have to meet any electrical/material/cost requirements on the robot. The non-functional decoration rules are intended to prevent teams from using other camera systems to see what the robot sees, etc. I think a green panel on the robot would be legal if you account for the materials and such and your green panel conforms to all other robot rules. If all painting of the robot and decorations had to abide the "can't affect the outcome of the match", then arguably you couldn't customize your paint job to make it easy to see your robot across the field and quickly tell its orientation by what colors you can see on it.
Also, I'm not particularly talking about painting the whole robot green because the definitely would confuse my alliance partners. I was more thinking of just a green panel on the front that only my opponents could see.
Max Lobovsky
14-01-2005, 08:57
I think we need some clarification from FIRST. Removable green panels or no? (Incidentally, one of our team colors is green.)
Rich Kressly
14-01-2005, 09:34
Kevin,
Your point of view is well outlined here. Please have your team's main contact post the question to FIRST in the official Q&A if you really feel your strategy would be a legal one. Thanks.
Kevin Sevcik
14-01-2005, 09:41
Kevin,
Your point of view is well outlined here. Please have your team's main contact post the question to FIRST in the official Q&A if you really feel your strategy would be a legal one. Thanks.
Already done. We asked two days ago and are simply waiting for a reply, I'm just explaining my position here and such. I don't think my question could be most definitive:
Clarifying Q. 982: This means that teams are allowed to paint their robots the exact same color as the vision tetra, loading zone, or gold triangle to intentionally distract other team's cameras?
Already done. We asked two days ago and are simply waiting for a reply, I'm just explaining my position here and such. I don't think my question could be most definitive:
Originally Posted by Q.1125
Clarifying Q. 982: This means that teams are allowed to paint their robots the exact same color as the vision tetra, loading zone, or gold triangle to intentionally distract other team's cameras?
<R26> No devices or decorations are permitted on the robot that are intended to jam or interfere with the operation of the vision system (i.e. changing robot color to confuse opponent’s vision system).
It is becomming very frustrating to watch this thread grow and see the obvious efforts that certain people are taking to find a way to circumvent the rules. Rule <R26> is about as simple as it can be. The intent of this rule is obvious, even to my third-grade daughter. YOU CANNOT DO ANYTHING TO INTENTIONALLY INTERFERE WITH THE VISION SYSTEM OF THE OPPOSING ALLIANCE.
If you intentionally paint your robot a color intended to confuse the opponents vision system, then you are violating the rule.
If you design a removable placard to put on the front of your robot that has the specific purpose of confusing the opponents vision system, then you are violating the rule.
If you are stupid about this and violate the rules, and thereby cause your alliance to lose a match, then your alliance partners will gang up on you and violate your robot.
Can it be any more clear? What is so hard to understand about this?
-dave
dhitchco
14-01-2005, 11:59
Being from New York, we are dressing our team in black since it's a cool fashion statement.
We're also painting our robot in dark-gray radar reflective stealth paint such that the robot will be INVISIBLE to the others and we can then freely slip into the enemy camp, knock off the tetras and everyone will think it is a ghost :)
Come on, I'd like to see some threads about POSITIVE things to do with the vision system. For example, I have NOT heard anyone talk about a vision system that ONLY looks down at the field floor and finds the shapes there (that happen to be UNDER every goal, loading station, etc.) Now that's a neat trick.........
Mike Betts
14-01-2005, 12:05
...If you are stupid about this and violate the rules, and thereby cause your alliance to lose a match, then your alliance partners will gang up on you and violate your robot.
Can it be any more clear? What is so hard to understand about this?...
I have ignored this thread for a while and am just appalled at the direction this thread had taken.
I agree completely with Dave. Teams will have enough problems with variations in ambient lighting and intended target coloring without confusing the issue. In fact, many teams will arrive at their competitions without having solved these issues. They will need our help.
It goes beyond rules, Gracious Professionalism or common sense...
Let me be clear on this. In my opinion, it would be rude, ignorant and vulgar for any team to intentionally or unintentionally color any component of their robot or driver/HP uniforms which even come close to interfering with the vision systems.
In the case of intentional interference at a competition, I promise that I will personally take that team's leadership aside and have a discussion about the values and goals of technical education, FIRST, good sportsmanship, morality and a few subjects I haven't thought of yet.
Please ask yourself "Why am I doing this?".
I hope that I have made my point.
Rich Kressly
14-01-2005, 12:08
I'm with the esteemed Mr. Lavery on this one. Intentionally screwing up other teams is clearly against the rules. As a senior mentor I need to know more about how the camera functions, how precise it is at picking up colors and shades, and how much it affects traditionally green teams like MOE, Swampthing, etc. so I can help the teams in my region. There is no need for any further conversation on what is or isn't gracious professionalism. To most of us, that is obvious. If anyone wants to debate the GP of this situation, please PM me or call me, but keep it out of this thread so those who need the vital information can get it.
Kevin Sevcik
14-01-2005, 12:28
I'll just say that the whole reason this is coming up is because the Q&A is unclear on this and frankly contradictory. Dave's interpretation was, in fact, my original reading of R26. However, the answers to Q.981 and Q.982 say that nothing, nothing will be done to ensure that teams do not paint their robots or outfit their team in a color that can interfere with the vision system. No precautions will be taken or will need to be taken. Teams will not have to restrict the color that they paint their robot. These two answers seem crystal clear to me in the exact opposite direction. I will be more than happy to concede the point if FIRST changes these answers or clarifies them, but right now the Q&A says to me that I can paint my robot whatever color I like, however I like, including a vision tetra green panel.
As I've noted, I have a question in the Q&A that would answer this once and for all. I've put it there because I beleive the rules and Q&A are at odds now and that the Q&A answers in place make this strategy legal.
I'll also note that I'm bringing it up because I'm certain that teams will be VERY highly annoyed if another team paints their robot green and distracts them from the tetra, even unintentionally. They will point to Q.981 and say that the Q&A says that they didn't have to worry about green robots running around the field. I think there needs to be some real definitive stuff here instead of two one word answers.
Alan Anderson
14-01-2005, 13:21
I'll also note that I'm bringing it up because I'm certain that teams will be VERY highly annoyed if another team paints their robot green and distracts them from the tetra, even unintentionally. They will point to Q.981 and say that the Q&A says that they didn't have to worry about green robots running around the field. I think there needs to be some real definitive stuff here instead of two one word answers.
The rules are still the final arbiter of what is legal. Unless and until a team update changes the rule making intentional disruption of the vision system illegal, intentionally disrupting the vision system is illegal.
The Q&A doesn't say teams can relax and not worry about green robots. It merely says that the officials aren't going to insist on a team repainting its robot. That should tell you that you do have to consider the possibility of there being a green robot on the field.
Intent isn't so simple a question.
R26 could be construed in two separate ways, depending on how lawyerly you were feeling that day.
If you painted your robot in such a manner as to confuse the robot's sensors, you would be acting in a forbidden matter.
However, it could be argued that, if you didn't change the color, and you knew your color would throw off the opposing robot, it could be convincingly argued that you were intentionally and dangerously negligent.
It's all in how they determine "the spirit of the rules".
--Petey
I'll just say that the whole reason this is coming up is because the Q&A is unclear on this and frankly contradictory. Dave's interpretation was, in fact, my original reading of R26. However, the answers to Q.981 and Q.982 say that nothing, nothing will be done to ensure that teams do not paint their robots or outfit their team in a color that can interfere with the vision system. No precautions will be taken or will need to be taken. Teams will not have to restrict the color that they paint their robot. These two answers seem crystal clear to me in the exact opposite direction. I will be more than happy to concede the point if FIRST changes these answers or clarifies them, but right now the Q&A says to me that I can paint my robot whatever color I like, however I like, including a vision tetra green panel.
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Not necessarily--
My question only asks whether or not there will be precautions taken against it, or whether precautions need to be taken against it. There may be no rules that forbid teams outside of R26, but they may still enforce R26.
Just a thought.
As I've noted, I have a question in the Q&A that would answer this once and for all. I've put it there because I beleive the rules and Q&A are at odds now and that the Q&A answers in place make this strategy legal.
Please cite--wording, and ID, so I can check.
I'll also note that I'm bringing it up because I'm certain that teams will be VERY highly annoyed if another team paints their robot green and distracts them from the tetra, even unintentionally. They will point to Q.981 and say that the Q&A says that they didn't have to worry about green robots running around the field. I think there needs to be some real definitive stuff here instead of two one word answers.
I agree.
--Petey
Al Skierkiewicz
14-01-2005, 15:05
Dave and Rich,
I guess no one is listening as the discussion continues. So I will add my two cents...
If you have never played around with color cameras or you have never played around with color object recognition or you have never studied reflected light in a component video world, then please stop posting about this subject. Veterans and rookies alike need useful data about camera operation and rule interpretation. The rules as Dave has pointed out, are not open for interpretation, GP or not.
If you have several hours of hard data using this camera recognizing the shape and color objects on the field (including field lighting) and would like to share, please do.
Al, Dave--
I think teams are worried, more than anything else, that if they paint their robot green, blue, red, or yellow (as their team colors normally are), and they unintentionally interfere with the operation of an opposing video camera, they will be excused of operating with ulterior motives.
They are seeking pre-decoration clarification, not pre-emptive absolution.
I will see if the Controls subteam on my team can record some video data quickly so we can get some more information about this.
--Petey
Rich Kressly
15-01-2005, 10:35
Al, Dave--
I think teams are worried, more than anything else, that if they paint their robot green, blue, red, or yellow (as their team colors normally are), and they unintentionally interfere with the operation of an opposing video camera, they will be excused of operating with ulterior motives.
They are seeking pre-decoration clarification, not pre-emptive absolution.
I will see if the Controls subteam on my team can record some video data quickly so we can get some more information about this.
--Petey
Excellent, we all need hard data about the camera, it's capabilities, and how this will play out for most teams. People are appropriately concerned, but we need to know of the real issues and how to resolve them. Squabbling about what's right (when it's obvious to most) is a waste of time and space. Let's see real, credible data about what the camera can do with colors and shapes and the reliability/repeatability of its function during autonomous mode. Thanks Al and Dave for getting this back on track. Stick to the camera and how it works so this thread is fully useful to teams. The clock is ticking and we all need answers, so get to work ... and have fun too.
Let's move this MEANINGFUL conversation to the programming forum... two good threads are already started about the camera. Post your technical data/questions there. Al has already posted there and so have others. Thanks.
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