So what do you think of the new game?

[slickguy2007]

I was looking at the game and I read all of the rules and I think that this game is going to be a very interesting one. Last year's had a lot of elements and you only had 2 robots on each side. This year you have not as many elements but even more robots in a match. This game seems as though it might be a rough one and as a driver, I look forward to it.....

GO 1403!!!

[Mike Ounsworth]

As the team scout on a team of no more then 11 students I'm thinking that this year with 6 'bots on the floor at a time keeping accurate statistics is going to be a chalenge.

[Christine G.]

Think it is going to be like 2001...sleepy time :(

[Koko Ed]

I was looking at the game and I read all of the rules and I think that this game is going to be a very interesting one. Last year's had a lot of elements and you only had 2 robots on each side. This year you have not as many elements but even more robots in a match. This game seems as though it might be a rough one and as a driver, I look forward to it.....

GO 1403!!!
I enjoyed the multi facited elements of last year's game (so many different ways to win and lose) but this years game might not have as great a varitey of robots but it will be much more stronger in the strategy aspect. Particualrly in the elimination rounds where who you pick for your partner is important especially since there is no backup fourth member. It's you three and if one breaks down the two (or one :ahh: ) have to go on.

[Koko Ed]

Think it is going to be like 2001...sleepy time :(
You mean Diabolical Dynamics?
That was a year before my time. What was the rules?

[663.keith]

One thing I can see happening though is even if a robot is broken, a team would still place it on the field for a chance to get the 10 points at the end of the match

[jgannon]

Think it is going to be like 2001...sleepy time :(
It should be just as interesting as last year. There will be tense moments at the end of many matches as last-second cappings change ownership of rows.

[Kyle]

I enjoyed the multi facited elements of last year's game (so many different ways to win and lose) but this years game might not have as great a varitey of robots but it will be much more stronger in the strategy aspect. Particualrly in the elimination rounds where who you pick for your partner is important especially since there is no backup fourth member. It's you three and if one breaks down the two (or one :ahh: ) have to go
on.
thats not true in the rules it says that if a alliance has a broken partner they can get a 4th member from the pool of non-picked teams, you get the higgest ranked non-picked team and your alliance has 4 members but the orginal broken member can not re enter but they can still get awards
8.4.1

[Cory]

You mean Diabolical Dynamics?
That was a year before my time. What was the rules?

4 robots working together against the clock. 2 Goals kind of like 2004's stationary goals, but on wheels that could be dragged around. Human players shot small black balls into them worth 1 pt. each. Robots could then cap the goals with larhe balls like last years. worth 10 points? there was a bar splitting the field like in 2003, some bots went under, one went over, most used a teeter totter like ramp in the center. The idea was that for maximum score you'd balance two full, capped goals on the ramp (worth 2x? cant remember point values...), and get all robots back to the endzone as soon as possible for more points. The faster you did it you got a higher multiplier of your base score.

Possibly the most spectator unfriendly game ever. Didn't make for tremendously exciting matches like head to head does now.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I like this year's game. It's relatively simple to score, but the sheer number of strategies that can be employed to do so, and prevent others from doing so is mind boggling.

Have fun, strategists! ;)

[team269ownsyou]

I think the game is very original, they definitly changed it up this year. For us, we were already working on the programming for line tracing and then we found out that there was no line tracing to be done. :ahh: It was still a learning experience though so I still gained important knowledge and learned some new programming.

Anyways, most of that got thrown out the window when it was announced that we were to be given a new compiler that uses scripts in english. YEAHH!!!!!! Finally im at an even skill level with my teammates and I wont feel completly biting the dust.

This is my rookie year in robotics and I hope it is a great one. I already find myself going through dozens of pages in my notebook with sketches for ideas and such. I also think that this years game involves a lot more stratagy, as there are so many ways to score and only so much time to do it. Im happy that they increased the max limit by a bit and also gave us so much nice new software that our school was really in need of.

Anyways, good luck to everyone this year. Make it a great one. And always remember about people like me. You were new to robotics once too and you have to remember that it isn't all about winning. My favorite teammates are the ones who help me battle the whole learning curve.

Best of Luck,
Andy Burchardt

[Koko Ed]

4 robots working together against the clock. 2 Goals kind of like 2004's stationary goals, but on wheels that could be dragged around. Human players shot small black balls into them worth 1 pt. each. Robots could then cap the goals with larhe balls like last years. worth 10 points? there was a bar splitting the field like in 2003, some bots went under, one went over, most used a teeter totter like ramp in the center. The idea was that for maximum score you'd balance two full, capped goals on the ramp (worth 2x? cant remember point values...), and get all robots back to the endzone as soon as possible for more points. The faster you did it you got a higher multiplier of your base score.

Possibly the most spectator unfriendly game ever. Didn't make for tremendously exciting matches like head to head does now.
I thought that was the 2000 game - Co-Opertition FIRST.

[Cory]

I thought that was the 2000 game - Co-Opertition FIRST.

Nope, that's Diabolical Dynamics. 2000 involved troughs that were up in the air that you tried to fill with balls, as well as a ramp, that had a bar over it to hang from.

Not the same kind of ramp though. 2001's ramp was exactly the same concept as a teeter totter. 2000's ramp was more like a hump in the floor.

[Koko Ed]

Nope, that's Diabolical Dynamics. 2000 involved troughs that were up in the air that you tried to fill with balls, as well as a ramp, that had a bar over it to hang from.

Not the same kind of ramp though. 2001's ramp was exactly the same concept as a teeter totter. 2000's ramp was more like a hump in the floor.
Well one thing for certain: FIRST has improved in their game design.

[Joel J]

The 2005 game seems to be a cross between 2003's and 1997's game. At first glance, I am not particularly fond of the game. But I'm not in a very good mood (I know.. who cares), so I am going to wait and see if the game will grow on me.

[ebenhopwil]

This year's game certainly seems quite different from previous years, so it should be quite interesting. However, it seems that there is pretty much one function all teams have to go for... stacking tetras on goals. Last year for example, you could try to manipulate the balls or try to hang on the bar, or even both. There doesn't seem to be the same number of options here, or maybe I just not being creative enough.

[Jillian B.]

I was really wanting more hanging, more climbing stairs, but hey, it's not another Stack Attack, so I'm happy.

I guess I agree with some above me. The game is going to have to grow on me before I'm enthralled with it.

Good Luck Everyone!

~ Jill

[Cyberguy34000]

Overall this year's game is going to be a very different from previous years. Because you can pretty much put most designs into 2 different categories, defence and tetra capper (I don't think many teams will be just ferrying Tetras), the variety in designs will certainly be quite a bit smaller. Many of the robots will begin to look a like after a while. But then again, the strategy element is quite a bit more challenging. It shifts the main focus of the game from how you design the robot to how you play the game. It was very interesting making a map of the course and coming up with possible strategies for winning.

Overall, I think that this year's game will be a welcome challenge.

Now I wonder how this year will affect next year's game ...

[Chris Reynolds]

Alright... As a "semi-rookie" i have not fully participated in a FIRST competition, but, I have to say that i am already FLOWING with ideas as to what our team can do. This years game does indeed lack the number of game elements that were used in previous years, but, the 3-robot alliance will be quite interesting... Good luck everybody. Hope to see some of you at the Mid-West regional!

~Chris

[Ken Loyd]

Does anyone think they can find a bonus tetra, pick it up, and place it on the center goal in 15 seconds?

Ken

[generalbrando]

I think they've done an excellent job on the game as they did last year, except this time they've given us yet another completely new challenge...

My instant reaction to the game convinces me it'll be great. I was excited, but I winced in pain - playing with those tetras will be challenging because it's going to be so important. But the challenge is a huge positive. I can't wait to see what people come up with to manipulate them.

As a side note, I'd like to use this post to also say that I'm thrilled with FIRST's improvements this year, especially in the kit. Going through the kit was like Christmas morning. Every little package I opened held more and more cool stuff. And this new drive train and chassis ... I'm thinking we're all going to see a whole new level of competition this year - no more will we see so many crippled robots out there! (hey, we were one of them, so no offense!)

[Joshua May]

I must admit, I didn't entirely like the game when it was first unveiled due to the simplicity. However, its starting to grow on me thanks to the great strategy possibilities.

[Mikey229]

I was thinking the same thing. Because in the time it takes you to find the tetra find the goal raise it up and put it on. I dont know how fast the cameras work yet but i was thinking 3-4 seconds to find the one tetra, 4 seconds to drive over and pick it up,3-4 seconds to find goal then a few to put it on top. im sure its possible or they wouldnt of put it in the game.(It might be like 1-2 seconds to find the tetras im not sure)

[sabrina752]

Def. involves good strategy... I look forward to it all.

[Rabbit222]

This is going to be tough. :ahh: All arm operators: GET CRACKIN'!!!!!!

[geeknerd99]

My team has come to the conclusion that it all boils down to the tetras capped per 30 seconds and where those tetras go.

So, it's really like this year's challenge is all about speed and efficiency.

[blueWarrior]

I agree with everything everybody said above. There isn't that much room for scoring/elements. It will basically come down to:

a. How fast you can stack your tetras, at our first design planning meeting (lol we got going early) it looks like even stacking on the central goal might prove to be a challenge.
b. The last 15-20 seconds are going to be the determining factors of the game.
c. How fast your team can strategize on the spot.

Personally I'm quite depressed with the game, maybe it's because today was a long day :p I'm sure ideas will come soon. lol

[wafflesk]

Well, im my opion i realyl dont like the game. Maybe because im a etern and have seen many challegnes but i just dont like the aspect of having only one or maybe two wyas to realyl solver this challenge. I liked it last year where there were tons of differet things you could do. This year it seems like eveyrones gona be just doing the same thing and i think thyat takes away something from FIRST. I rememberl asty ear Dean saying sometihng about how there are always more then one way to solver a problem. Ive also heard countless times how its great to see 1000s of different soltuinos to one problem. This year it takes that away. Its becoming less enginerring and more about strategey. I liked bulding our own motor mounts and chasis. It may have been a lot of work but it was worth it. I dont know. Maybe this years challenge will grow on me.

[KimT]

This is my third year in FIRST, and I would actually say I'm THRILLED with the game, and here's why:

1. I still remember the ridiculously complicated strategies we all put into Stack Attack, only to discover that stacks were SO easy to knock over that the game mostly came down to the best push bots and the occasional lucky stack. It was fun, but there was so little motivation to be good at stacking, so there were a lot of technical wonders we never saw the best of.

2. Raising the Bar ran into some similar difficulties (though not nearly so often) with the 2X balls, but mainly big point incentives like hanging often made collecting balls MUCH less important.

3. What I like about this game, is that every point will count, especially with six bots on the field, and the highest extra score being ten. I would not be surprised if matches are won on the efficiency of a team in simply placing tetra-hedrons under goals.

4. This game will require excellent strategy and tactics. Drivers and coaches will have to work together.

5. Lastly, (and this is a big deal for our team, though maybe not for others) there is a TON of incentive to be an incredibly reliable robot. There aren't a thousand different tasks to split our attention. Our team may actually build a stable, sturdy robot this year.

I know people are disappointed by the appearance of simplicity, but I can GUARANTEE that this game will give you a run for your money. It focuses on different aspects of building than any previous game I am familiar with, but that won't make it any less challenging.

Also! I think it will actually be super exciting for audiences to watch - like live tic-tac-toe on caffeine! :) A bunch of matches are going to come down to the buzzer and the last moment cap.

[AnonymousMan]

Well, before I start, I just want to let you all know how much I respect the brilliance and amazing engineering I see on a daily basis from this organization. So, I'm not going to sugar coat this forum; I'm going to be brutally honest. As such, I've gone as anonymous as I can.

So, to be frank, and to state my point: This game is not only a severe disappointment; it is a waste of the money I worked hard to raise.
his game lacks several crucial elements of a "good" US FIRST challenge. I define good as intriguing and challenging for the players, allowing them to reap the reward of their hard work; and as enjoyable for the spectators, who want to watch interesting high school students express themselves through intelligence and engineering. The main element it lacks, from the definition of "good", is engineering value. As was shown in the video, and was highlighted by the human robot explanation, each and every robot is the same, more or less. Like Woody said: "this one has better vision, but this one has better speed. This one has TWO manipulators, but poor eyesight. ..."

Confining the brilliant roboticists and engineers of FIRST, perhaps even those who have been around for years, to construct the SAME robot that a rookie team / inexperienced engineer to create, is not only a disservice to FIRST engineers, but is a form of COMMUNISM. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, this game is a game of equality. Each robot is the same, and each robot should perform the same. Sure, "efficiency" is a factor, but, quite frankly, making my robot slightly better than yours is not what drives me; it's not what FIRST is about. I want to make a robot that is different from yours, better through uniqueness, not simply through a slightly different arm design. Some examples of this are: the team that could move left and right on the bar last year, the team that turned the Stack Attack ramp into a steeper ramp, the team that knocked over the entire wall of boxes within 2 secs with a giant arm in Stack Attack. Those are unique FIRST solutions, and some that are UNAVAILABLE this year.

This year, there is only solution. Each robot must have the same ability, to pick up Tetra's, and place them on cones. Every robot is the same, and the only thing that changes is a team's strategy per game: attack, defend, create rows, etc. That is BORING: no spectator wants to see the same thing over and over again; no self-respecting engineer wants to recreate something that is already been made.

What pisses me off the most this year is the price increase. That extra $1000 went to waste, as far as I'm concerned. Sure we got cooler parts, cameras, more motors, better electronics, but they mean nothing. This year, they spent more time on making a better kit than they did on making a better game.

Well, at this point, you should know how I feel on this game. FIRST really let down it's core group of kids: young engineers who like to tinker, create, design, and to solve problems with beautiful solutions, to learn and to "earn" their way to the top. It is most certainly not brand new rookie teams, without previous experience or knowledge of any hand tools, electronics or programming. It seems that this year, the game has been dumbed down to an extreme.


FIRST: you disappoint me. I expected better from you.


Now, with the majority of my argument/rant over, I want to encourage any remaining readers to respond to this: tell me why this game is a true FIRST game, tell me how there is more than one solution, tell me how this is more than a one-dimensional game. Tell me why this game doesn't suck.

[Petey]

Frankly, I'm a bit disappointed.

Sure, the tetras bring in some new spice, but, fundamentally, this game is "stack attack" with a tic-tac-toe twist thrown in.

The 3vs3 thing will, I think, piss more people off in the end, because, with the same size field, your robots are going to be crunching into each other.

Not to mention the ramifications this is going to have on scoring. The discrepencies between the high ranked and low ranked teams will win, and it is even less likely that a deserving team will go to the finals. After all, one great team might be able to carry a two person alliance, but a three person alliance? Pish.

The human player interaction is abysmal. As a human player from last year--and as an athlete--I think it's a joke. Last year had a perfect meld between machine and person. This year, we have human players who are nothing more than glorified switches. Their job, literally, could be done by a trained monkey.

I understand why Dean, Woody, and the rest of the FIRST crew don't like athletes. For one, they're all nerds. Today was the first day I've seen Dean without his SEGWAY for a long time. For another thing, they are perfectly right in criticizing the disproportionate amount of influence and demagoguery that our atheletes weild among children today.

This is no excuse to cut athletics from the program, though. It is impossible to create the ubermensch Dean seems to have in mind while ignoring the body. Would it be so hard to involve a simple throwing variable? Last year was fun and dynamic. There were buzzer-beating shots!

What would I have liked to see?

A) If we had more alliance partners, increase the field size! Go to a hex shaped field.
B) Keep a human player role that required more skill than simply walking and having a certain weight.

Anyone else agree with me?

--Petey

[Petey]

AnonymousMan, I should add that I agree with you as well. I understand why FIRST wants to keep "the train slow"--I'm a graduating senior from a third year team, so I know what it's like to jump on.

But this game is alarmingly one dimensional. The only real variable comes from the strategic implementation of the tic-tac-toe board, and that is so haphazard that the winner may not be the best robot, strategy or team--simply who is lucky enough to have a tetra in their hand at the right time.

It certainly lacks the dynamism of last year's game.

--Petey

[Alavinus]

Before everybody gets all worked up over the "one-dimensional ism" of this years game, think of what happened last year after kickoff. Everybody hated the fact robots couldn't score and everybody was worried that FIRST would be taken over by basketball stars. Look at the end result. Last year FIRST created a very exciting game that in the end, kept many of us very entertained.

Also- I think this game is only narrow minded aspect: robustness. Other then that there are many different bot types that this game can create. Give it some time. Work on your design. I promise you that at your regional every bot will be different in some way.


~Andrew (Who can remember back to his rookie year in 2000 where the only way to score was to put balls in a trough or hang... And then a little known team came along who could hang and transfer balls from one side to the other...)

[n0cturnalxb]

It's not one-dimensional. At first, it does seem like it.. but it's not. If you give it some time and think about it a little, I'm sure you'll all come up with spectacular ideas.

Just think out of the box, find something that's not obvious at first glance.. and go with it. -shrug-

[Michael Leicht]

i don't have a feeling on the game yet i don't hate it or i don't like it.

i am just going to give this game time.

[Ken Loyd]

Give me a break! This game is not one dimensional. Will stacking robots also be placing robots? I feel confident that the two hanging tetras in the end zone will become a major factor. How do you get three robots in a space big enough for two robots? Can you be the last robot to stack the center goal and still get back to the end zone?

Cut the whining and start having fun!

Ken

[blueWarrior]

We aren't whining. This changes everything but It's just going to require a lot more brainpower! A couple more think-tank sessions and a plan should be brewing.

[tribotec_ca88]

My first impression of the game was not at all a good one...it just seemed strange and a bit dull, but looks can be misleading...
Now that I've taken the time to sit down and properly read the manual, my idea has changed completely. Just because the game may seem to be a bit simple doesn't mean that creativity is restricted. In fact I think the more simple, the better, because it really does encourage you to "think out of the box". I'm excited to see what other teams will come up with. OK so maybe a ball game is more spectator-friendly than tic-tac-toe, but who says it can't be exciting?!?!? There's more to tetra stacking, really.

Even though there's a few things here and there I don't agree with, I think we've got to the make the most out of what we've got...

Good luck to all....and thanks, FIRST, for yet another brilliant game.

[Billfred]

I share the view of one certain person I asked in Manchester...

We'll play it.

[Tim Delles]

I think that this years game is very exciting. Everyone has to either stack tetras or defend against people stacking tetras. this could result in a very tough game for everyone to play, because it is going to be very physical. I like the way that first has done the scoring once again this year for the qualifying rounds, with the 2 points for a win, 1 for a tie, and 0 for a lose. This is good, because you can go out and play your game and not have the opponents score being a top priority, even though it is still a priority. I like the whole thing with the shape of the scoring objects, tetras, how much cooler could you get. WOW... i can't wait to see the amazing machines that come out of this years game, its all bound to be excellent. I hope this game grows on everyone as all of the games in the past have. FIRST has put alot of hours into the game, as Dave said 400 or 500 hours a piece, so lets not put anything down about the game. So my last comment is to thank all of the FIRST volunteers and workers that have put many hours again into a game that we are all bound to have fun and learn many things from. THANK YOU FIRST!!!!

[slickguy2007]

This is what I think is going to happen... a lot of robots will try to manipulate the tetras and some will be good at it while others are okay. The other robots will be pure defense and don't doubt that a large number of the teams will be defensive. The manipulators will be in matches with the defensive robots and they will either begin to realize they can't do much because of all the people pushing them around or they will be at a point where they are so broken they can't do anything but push. My prediction for finals at a regional is a lot of pushing... most of the robots out there on the field after qualifying matches will be those that can defend really well and those that have survived qualifying matches. Finals at the championship is something that scares me because it is much more competitive than at a regional and you can be sure that it will be much more brutal. This game is going to need a lot of team work and will result in a lot of tired people who were fixing the robot after every match!

[Petey]

I share the view of one certain person I asked in Manchester...

Oh certainly, we'll play.

--Petey

[tiffany34990]

I share the view of one certain person I asked in Manchester...

hee hee--most definitely we're gonna play like always and have some fun. i don't have an opinion of the game till i see it at the competition and it's hard because well right now it's only the 2nd day.

it will be interesting though not only because of the 3 bots on each side but also with the field tetras only are attached by Velcro-- who knows how many will be knocked around-- also the dimensions of the bots changed so we might be seeing some different designs to match the envelope like always


good luck to all teams and yet again FIRST has challenged our minds and now we get to work to solve the challenge and all the lil problems we encounter on the way

[phrontist]

This game is incredible. I can't imagine a better game. Robots can be built defensively or offensively, and can be played either way during either control period. The whole game will be scintillating, auto-mode espescially, as robots try to cap and prevent others from capping. I can't wait to see two robots grasp vision tetras, and start heading towards the center goal! One caps! But so does the other, gaining control of the center! I can't wait...

[shotgunking777]

well the whole concept of the game i think is great. cause you have to make an arm 5 feet tall but extend out then add an extra 3 in. so if its already caped you can cap it. i think its great. i can't wait for the comp. its going to be awsome.

jthm: darnit there was only one bullet left in the gun, and i waisted it on that darn clerk. :D :o :eek: ;)

[Adam Y.]

because the game may seem to be a bit simple doesn't mean that creativity is restricted.
To be honest the one place where I am really confused is in autonomous mode. I can not think of any sensors that are really useful besides the cmu cam and dead reackoning sensors because the way field elements are set up. It's mostly empty space which is pretty annoying.:)What would I have liked to see?

A) If we had more alliance partners, increase the field size! Go to a hex shaped field.
Psss... They did increase the field size.I want to make a robot that is different from yours, better through uniqueness, not simply through a slightly different arm design. Some examples of this are: the team that could move left and right on the bar last year, the team that turned the Stack Attack ramp into a steeper ramp, the team that knocked over the entire wall of boxes within 2 secs with a giant arm in Stack Attack. Those are unique FIRST solutions, and some that are UNAVAILABLE this year.
Im sorry but you are wrong. There are enough unique eingineering solutions in designing a drivetrain. There are plenty of unique engineering solutions in building a control system. There are plenty of engineering solutions in building an arm.
This year, there is only solution. Each robot must have the same ability, to pick up Tetra's, and place them on cones. Every robot is the same, and the only thing that changes is a team's strategy per game: attack, defend, create rows, etc. That is BORING: no spectator wants to see the same thing over and over again; no self-respecting engineer wants to recreate something that is already been made.
Ummm... Isn't an engineer's job to recreate stuff that has all ready been made. It was probably one of the very first things I learned in college. Most sports also follow the same idea. Drive around in circles, hit the ball with bat run around in bases, and kick the ball into goal.

[looneylin]

I really like this yr's game, there's a lot of strategy involved! N a lot of ways to be creative. I hope we have a good yr! :D

[R.J.]

Triple Play is going to be exciting, alot of thinking and scouting will be bigger than ever this year. Also auto mode and those cameras will be a huge factor in just about anything. Basically look out for a game thats going to have everyone on their toes. Tic Tac Toe 3 in a row I see a bunch of triangles called Tetras. Good Luck to everyone.

[rjmah]

Sure, the tetras bring in some new spice, but, fundamentally, this game is "stack attack" with a tic-tac-toe twist thrown in.
challenge.

--Petey

I see three kinds of robots. The Guard, the Speedy (to cap opponent's zone) and the Automat that will remove and use the automatic load station very effectively.



The human player interaction is abysmal. As a human player from last year--and as an athlete--I think it's a joke.
--Petey


I think we'll find elements of team sports becoming part of the alliance dicussions, like one on one coverage or zone defence to hold the capped tetras.



A) If we had more alliance partners, increase the field size! Go to a hex shaped field.
challenge.

--Petey

Hex would have been nice to give each 'bot as parking spot but consider that part of the challenge.

[Jeffel]

i dont like this game at all. the hardest thing will be the scouting. we have a great vbasic program that has worked in the past but it will still be difficult. I havent read the rules on this but will the playoff alliances include 4 teams or still 3... that might be tough to win a playoff round if there are only 3 bots... competing every match. many things could go wrong there! :confused:

[haroony341]

im not a fan of this years game. it doesnt seem as interesting to me. my all time favorite ( since i started in 2002) was stack attack. it was allways fun to watch and you never knew who was going to win and sometimes it was decided after the time was up. but ill probably grow onto this game once i see it played out.

go 341!