View Full Version : Does <R14> preclude you from practicing after the Fix-it Window
Does <R14> making teams "put down their tools" preclude them from practicing after the Fix-It Window?
<R14> Prior to the competitions: After the close of the “FIX-IT WINDOW” and prior to the competition, the team must put down their tools, cease fabrication of robot parts, and cease all software development. Take this opportunity to rest, recover from the build season, and relax. Teams may scout other teams, gather and exchange information, develop game-playing strategies, collect raw materials, prepare tool kits, plan how to make repairs, etc. in preparation for the upcoming competitions. But no construction or fabrication is allowed.
Our team definitely believes that this does preclude us from practicing. We even played devil's advocate at our meeting tonight and could never convince ourselves that practicing was within the spirit of Rule R14. During this devil's advocate discussion and to keep with the theme of the year, we had two men on base with no outs. "What if we never pick up a wrench to fix our robot?" was standing on first and "What if someone else repairs anything that breaks on our practice 'bot?" was standing on second. Then, our best hitter had a full-count with the runners going so we'd stay out of a double play. Crack! She hit the hardest line drive to first base that I've ever seen. It came off the bat sounding like this, "Isn't our battery charger a tool. If so and if all of your other silly let's-cut-n-harden-Billy's-finger-so-it-looks-like-a-7/16-open-ended-wrench ideas are legal, then we can only use the batteries that we charge before the end of the Fix-it Window to run our 'bot. Ohhhhhhhhhhh, the triple play :eek: ... :( ... :mad: .
We then headed out onto the proverbial field mumbling, "do you think we can buy enough batteries to last us between the fix-it period and competition ... maybe 2,000 batteries would get us through!" :D
Look forward to your response,
Lucien & 118
You mean practicing... as with a practice bot?
I don't see why you couldn't. I just finished going over that section of the rules again and as long as nothing you're doing is going to end up on the competition robot, why can't you drive around your other robot, and tweak it so that you know what needs to be done at competition?
jonathan lall
10-01-2005, 03:44
I don't agree with your team's assessment. I disagree with your definitions of tools (I mean, extending your logic, an inclined plane is a tool so then that is illegal too, and furthermore the battery charger or drill used to repair your practice bot is not used on anything -- directly at least -- relevant to the game or real robot, since construction of a non-competing robot is analogous to construction of giveaways in the grace period), and I disagree with your interpretation of the rule's spirit; as Joe Johnson pointed out (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=32356), this is more of a mercy rule than anything, and in that regard I do like FIRST's putting it in this year.
I think the biggest evidence this has nothing to do with practice robots is that if FIRST didn't want teams shelling out money on practice bots to give themselves an advantage they would have just said it.
You mean practicing... as with a practice bot?
Cory,
Yes, as with a practice robot. We thought that "the team must put down their tools" along with "Take this opportunity to rest, recover from the build season, and relax." statements meant that we should not be working on anything in our shop that has to do with the robot competition (competition 'bot, practice 'bot, playing field, etc.) for the 2005 FIRST Competition. We understand it to mean just for stuff pertaining to the robot, for example, we definitely think it is okay to cut PVC for spirit stuff in our shop after the Fix-it Window.
Thanks for the help,
Lucien
I interpret this as what is says - no more building or programming. I don't believe the intent extends to battery chargers for the batteries to run the practice robot (if you build one).
It also doesn't say - no practicing, no planning, no strategizing, no thinking, no trying to improve your driving skills, no playing simulated games, etc.
And - if you want to stop doing everything or some things, that is up to each team to decide. What isn't up for interpretation is Making things and Programming.
As to the "rest and recover from the build season" - depends on how your team defines it. Some may define it as "stop everything" - some may define it as, "okay now we need to work on the Hall of Fame presentation and video, or making buttons, or finishing up the planning for the off season event". Some teams are active year round and just because the 6 weeks are over doesn't mean the program just stops.
I believe the intent is aimed at Building and Programming the competition robot.
Andy Baker
10-01-2005, 09:04
R14 does not specifically say that we should not be practicing with a second robot, but I hope it means that we shouldn't. Our team is planing on complying with the "put down your tools and take a break" suggestion. Over the past 3-4 years, we have tried to make a practice 'bot to do some post-ship work (driver practice, programming tweaking, etc.), but we are always burnt out and it does not happen. We simply end up with many, many spare parts.
At ship date, we are tired, frustrated, and behind in our normal lives. I would like <R14> to eliminate practice time between the ship date and competition, personally, but I don't know if the verbage of the rule prohibits it.
I agree that this is a good time to work on marketing/pit/team org./awards stuff.
This is selfish, but it is honest.
Andy
Mike Ounsworth
10-01-2005, 09:07
On that note, R14 states that:
"...Teams may scout other teams, gather and exchange information, develop game playing strategies, collect raw materials, etc."
I would say that practicing with a practice 'bot falls under the categories of 'gather and exchange information' and 'develop game playing strategies'.
As of right now, practicing with a practice robot seems to be both legal and within the spirit of the rules. Perhaps this will be changed in one of the many updates to come.
Noah Melamed
10-01-2005, 09:59
I think this is a perfect question for the pre-season YMTC series of questions.
Since we, team 118, are interpreting "the team must put down their tools" to mean put our tools down after the Fix-it Window (FIW) and until the competition instead of put our tools down after the FIW then pick them right back up to build another robot and because most of you believe that it is perfectly legal, I have submitted it to the Q&A System.
Thanks for the valuable input ... we're probably wrong,
Lucien
Mike Martus
10-01-2005, 22:28
Following the extreme path even farther ....... would putting down tools include Shutting off ChiefDelphi.com? Should FIRST and Innovation FIRST disable all the tools (programming) they have provided? Should FIRST shut down their web site for the time period?
Should we all stop fundraising? Should we all stop mentoring activities with youth? Should we stop promoting our team? Should we stop organizing travel, room arrangements, and details for events?
Even more remote and extreme should all students stop learning about robots, motors, programming, animation, welding, electronics and go to veggin out in front of the mindless TV programs, making sure to turn of the science channel and any science related education that relates to the FIRST experience?
Hey guys, I do not think we can even ask people to stop thinking about their robot, what it will do or could do, how to make it better. Thinking about the excitement of the coming game, changes you could possibly make at the event are the spirit of FIRST.
In my opinion this rule could evolve into anti-FIRST, anti-education and if any of the above come true the destruction of the FIRST Organization in a very quick crash and burn.
To sum up - I think restricting teams from making practice robots would be a serious error on the part of FIRST.
BTW-at the regional meetings last year FIRST people asked how many teams built a second robot. Better that 1/2 of the teams there (MI) did. If there is going to be a rule change not allowing this, there willl be a lot of unhappy teams if they wait to long.
Jack Jones
10-01-2005, 22:50
...
In my opinion this rule could evolve into anti-FIRST, anti-education and if any of the above come true the destruction of the FIRST Organization in a very quick crash and burn.
To sum up - I think restricting teams from making practice robots would be a serious error on the part of FIRST.
...
Amen Brother Martus. I didn't think they could do worse than last year's spare parts rule, which I likened to some kind of religious mindset - I.E. The FIRST Commandments:
Remember the Sabbath by keeping it holy. Six weeks you shall labor and do all your work, but the days until the first event and those between are the Sabbath to the FIRST. On them you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your engineer or engineerette, nor your Bridgeport, nor the teacher within your gates. For six weeks the righteous moved the heavens and the earth. Therefore, the FIRST blessed the Sabbath and made it holy.
Appears that now it's gone all the way to fanaticism?
Should we all stop fundraising? Should we all stop mentoring activities with youth? Should we stop promoting our team? Should we stop organizing travel, room arrangements, and details for events?
Even more remote and extreme should all students stop learning about robots, motors, programming, animation, welding, electronics and go to veggin out in front of the mindless TV programs, making sure to turn of the science channel and any science related education that relates to the FIRST experience?
Hey guys, I do not think we can even ask people to stop thinking about their robot, what it will do or could do, how to make it better. Thinking about the excitement of the coming game, changes you could possibly make at the event are the spirit of FIRST.
Read the rule a bit more carefully.
<R14> Prior to the competitions: After the close of the “FIX-IT WINDOW” and prior to the competition, the team must put down their tools, cease fabrication of robot parts, and cease all software development. Take this opportunity to rest, recover from the build season, and relax. Teams may scout other teams, gather and exchange information, develop game-playing strategies, collect raw materials, prepare tool kits, plan how to make repairs, etc. in preparation for the upcoming competitions. But no construction or fabrication is allowed.
The rule is very specific to fabrication. It does not in any way prohibit fund raising, preparing travel, mentoring, or learning (and I understand you were using the extremes as examples, but for this rule the argument doesn't work). The only thing it does is punctuate what's already been a rule for the past few years; no fabrication of real parts after the ship date. If a team has a practice robot, use the time to evaluate it, figure out what has to be done, where parts should go, etc. Document what should be done, so by the time competition rolls around a minute by minute schedule can be produced outlining exactly what should be done. If a team wants to fabricate parts for the practice robot to find out what the real bot's needs are, there's really nothing to stop that from happening. I would only hope in the spirit of gracious professionalism that none of those parts find their way into the competition, and only raw materials gathered (not modified or machined) during the window are brought in to the real robot.
The emphasis I added to the rule discounts the extreme side of the argument, and proves the contrary- the rule encourages more to be done on the logistical side of the team by diverting team resources from building to planning. The rule says "Teams may scout other teams, collect raw materials, prepare tool kits, plan how to make repairs, etc. in preparation of the upcoming competitions." I'd say that's quite the opposite of not thinking about the robot. Just because the band saws and drill presses are turned off doesn't mean the whole team goes into shutdown mode. It's merely a break from the physical manipulation of metal/wood/electricity/compressed air, a chance to breathe air that doesn't smell like tap magic, and discuss the finer points of the program. Scouting and strategy will play a huge role in this year's competition, and every team knows fund raising never takes a break. Keep that in mind when the Fix-It window rolls around, and remember FIRST is doing it's best to keep all teams on equal grounds.
Mike Martus
11-01-2005, 12:18
I did read the rule careful, I was taking an extreme position, almost the what if........
I do however stand behind my point regarding students learning from making an additional robot of any kind to drive and practice repairs. Skills are only learned through practice.
On very often heard complaint is that students do not repair their own robots in the pits. In many cases it is because they do not have or have never been taught the skills to do so.
Joe Johnson
11-01-2005, 13:07
From the text, I think it is an open question as to the status of practicing with practice robots.
From what I know of FIRST and the context of the rule, I highly doubt that FIRST ment to disallow practicing with practice robots (discourage, yes, perhaps, but not an outright ban). In any case, if this was their intention, I think they should say so in plain language.
The question has been asked, we can just wait for their input.
Just for the record, long practice sessions (with our practice robot, which we have built over the last 2 years and with our real robot after the regionals when that was allowed) have provided some of the best bonding experiences I have ever had with our students.
Seriously, some of my best memories of FIRST came in the quiet hours waiting for motors to cool or for a part to get re-welded.
I would not like to see that time limited.
Just my 2 cents.
Joe J.
I do however stand behind my point regarding students learning from making an additional robot of any kind to drive and practice repairs. Skills are only learned through practice.
As Jon said, this is more of a mercy rule than anything else, to encourage teams to take a step back from the machines for a moment and ponder what has happened and what's been learned over the previous 6 weeks. My feeling is the rule was designed to prevent work done on actual competition pieces and parts, and it does not apply to any sort of non-FIRST related robotics. If a team is building a robot to do other things non-FIRST for experimentation and learning, I'm pretty sure the FIRST rule wouldn't apply (as the robot itself is not a part of the FIRST program). There's just as much to learn with that sort of robot than a FIRST practice robot.
On very often heard complaint is that students do not repair their own robots in the pits. In many cases it is because they do not have or have never been taught the skills to do so.
Any students actively involved in the building of the robot should have a pretty good idea of how to repair the robot should anything fail. If a student is taught during the 6 weeks how to assemble and disassemble pieces of the robot, they'll have no problems doing it in the pit at competition. I just don't see how an extra 48 hours post-shipping or post-regional would be any more beneficial toward teaching repairs than the 6 weeks of actual build time.
I have to agree with Mike and Joe on this one and disagree with my good friend Andy. Andy, your team can choose to put down everything if you like. I know that our students continue to get inspired as much and learn more during our practice sessions than they do during the incredible rush to finish a robot for shipment.
Just think of it this way - if we do not give the students more opportunities to work with the robot it gives them more opportunities to go watch TV, play video games, watch the NBA, football and get influenced by those rather than get more inspiration from FIRST. I know what you are thinking - but we have a huge team and only so many can work on the other aspects of FIRST (fund raising, etc.).
And yes, I may be wrong, that may also be my selfish view.
Raul
Kris Verdeyen
11-01-2005, 14:57
Amen Brother Martus. I didn't think they could do worse than last year's spare parts rule, which I likened to some kind of religious mindset - I.E. The FIRST Commandments:
Remember the Sabbath by keeping it holy. Six weeks you shall labor and do all your work, but the days until the first event and those between are the Sabbath to the FIRST. On them you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your engineer or engineerette, nor your Bridgeport, nor the teacher within your gates. For six weeks the righteous moved the heavens and the earth. Therefore, the FIRST blessed the Sabbath and made it holy.
Appears that now it's gone all the way to fanaticism?
You're being facetious, but why not? What is wrong about limiting this madness to six weeks? High school football teams are limited as to what they can do when, i.e., you can lift weights and work out all summer, but you can't have an actual practice until so many days before the season starts. The reason rules like that are in place is so that those coaches who are most willing to take up every minute of their players' lives don't have as much of an advantage over those who are unwilling to.
The concept of a "Sabbath" might be based in religion, but it's not there arbitrarily - people really do need time to rest. You absolutely need time to stop focusing on work, and (literally or figuratively) smell the roses (unless you happen to be a florist, then just figuratively). Extended periods of highly stressful activity (like FIRST) take their toll on our physical, mental, and spiritual health, on our family, on every aspect of our lives. It makes sense that the time period that we do this should not be unduly extended, and that those who would extend it for themselves and for their students should not gain a huge advantage over those would rather take a breath.
We need well-rounded future engineers, and that's what FIRST is promoting with this rule.
Kris Verdeyen
13-01-2005, 16:07
ID: 1026 Section: 5.3.3 Status: Unanswered Date Posted: 1/10/2005
Q: Does <R14>, particularly "the team must put down their tools", preclude teams from using their tools to build, repair, and/or modify a practice robot between the Fix-it Window and competition? Simply, can teams "practice" after the FIW?
It's day three of Q/A 1026 watch. Emotions are tense here at FIRST HQ as the Question 1026 Answer Determination Committee meets for the third day of deliberations. What will the answer be? When will it come? The entire FIRST community waits with bated breath. Or maybe not - maybe they just get started on their robot.
Greg Ross
13-01-2005, 17:57
The entire FIRST community waits with baited breath.
bated. :) (Unless you mean we're smelling a little fishy. :p )
Kris Verdeyen
15-01-2005, 16:09
Are there questions that the Q/A folks will simply refuse to answer? I didn't pay much attention to the Q/A board last year, so I don't know if we ended the season up with questions still in the queue, other than those that were previously answered, or explained thourougly in the rules, or stupid.
I hate to say this, but the more that FIRST drags its feet answering this one, the more the rule looks deliberately vague. It appears as though it was written specifically so that FIRST could test the waters on the issue of practice robots while leaving themselves an "out" once the season comes.
Look at it this way:
If they wanted, absolutely, for us to not make practice robots, they could have said, "It is illegal for a team to practice the game with a robot in the time between ship and their regional."
If, on the other hand, they had not wanted us to work on the actual competition robot between ship and the regional, well, then no rule change would have been needed at all. That's always been the case.
The only reason for FIRST to have included this rule, and worded it the way they did is as a compromise. The rules committee had both pro- and anti- practice robot factions who couldn't agree on one of the above versions, and this muddy middle of a rule is what resulted. Now that their indecision has been pointed out, they don't want to anger either side by issuing a ruling, so they're staying mum. I can't say I blame them.
Since we, team 118, are interpreting "the team must put down their tools" to mean put our tools down after the Fix-it Window (FIW) and until the competition instead of put our tools down after the FIW then pick them right back up to build another robot and because most of you believe that it is perfectly legal, I have submitted it to the Q&A System.
Thanks for the valuable input ... we're probably wrong,
Lucien
WE'RE WRONG!
Q: Does <R14>, particularly "the team must put down their tools", preclude teams from using their tools to build, repair, and/or modify a practice robot between the Fix-it Window and competition? Simply, can teams "practice" after the FIW?
A: Teams can practice after the Fix-It window but anything you work on cannot be brought to the competition if it violates any rules.
Personally, I am very disappointed in this ruling. I believe that FIRST turned into lawyers for a day to come up with this ruling.
When reading these Rules, please use technical common sense (engineering thinking) rather than a lawyer’s interpretation. Try to understand the reasoning behind a rule.
Honestly, I thought when we posted the question to the Q&A system, it was just a formality to verify that practicing was illegal. Now that "the team must put down their tools" does NOT mean that the team has to put down their tools, the question must be asked what "cease all software development" means. Does it mean that we can change variables to make the motors run in the right direction? Does it mean that we can do as much development on our practice robot as we desire as long as we key-punch the code in when we get to our regional? Does it mean that we can't touch a tool ... I mean a keyboard? Yes, we don't think that we can touch a keyboard after the FIW but we were wrong before and are probably wrong again.
Also, I will start a new thread discussing the pros and cons of practicing after the ship date. It WILL be some interesting conversation and look forward to understanding both sides.
Very, very disappointed,
Lucien
Jack Jones
04-03-2005, 08:37
Well, here it is, a little over six weeks since the last post on this topic. Could it be that all the confusion about this rule has been cleared up, and I missed the seeing it in the updates? Or, could it be that the rule is so totally bizarre that we’ve decided not to talk about it?
I don’t know about the rest of you, but we spent the week following the fix-it window finishing our practice robot. We’ve spent the time since that practicing and upgrading. Err, at least planning upgrades, to include prototyping.
How they think that the rule encourages us to take a break is beyond me. We would have loved to have taken the two days off after shipping, but instead we had to scramble making & assembling replacement parts for just about everything we suspected had a snowball’s chance of breaking.
The rules state, “…teams may bring SPARE, REPLACEMENT and UPGRADE PARTS and COTS items to the competitions (within the limits specified in Rules <R23> and <R24>).”; but it also states “During the ’FIX-IT WINDOW’ … Teams may manufacture SPARE and REPLACEMENT PARTS for their robot at their home facility. Fabrication of UPGRADE PARTS is not permitted during this period.” So where is it they expect us to come up with those UPGRADE PARTS we’re allowed to bring?
If they intended to level the playing field with this rule, then they have missed completely. It used to be that teams who went to many regionals had greater opportunity to work on their robot than those who only went to one. Now it is that teams who go to many regionals have more fix-it windows that those who don’t.
Finally, the rules state, “following the last Regional Event a team attends (i.e. prior to attending the FIRST Championship): Teams may manufacture SPARE, REPLACEMENT and UPGRADE PARTS for their robot at their home facility (not at the competition site).” Imagine that your team has just won a regional or one of the other three awards that newly qualify them for the Nats. You suddenly realize that, in addition to raising the money and making the arrangements, you have two days to design, fab, build, and perfect all those UPGRADES that others who pre-qualified have had months to plan. How is that fair???
bhweezer
30-03-2005, 11:26
What about the majority of FIRST teams that don't have the funds and materials to build a second robot? It doesn't make it fair for the teams that do to have the extra practice driving and whatnot. I don't think there would be a problem building a second robot, as long as it doesn't have anything to do with this year competition.
Billfred
30-03-2005, 12:08
What about the majority of FIRST teams that don't have the funds and materials to build a second robot? It doesn't make it fair for the teams that do to have the extra practice driving and whatnot.
Dean's said it many a time--FIRST isn't necessarily fair. And, for better or for worse, this extends to the realm of practice robots.
The main problem I see with trying to block practice bots is how FIRST could a) write a rule with any amount of teeth, and b) enforcing it. How do you regulate things that a team does that are done outside of the build and competitions? I'm not sure it's possible without somehow blocking a legitimate thing (such as someone that wants to start prototyping for 2006).
If anyone wants to take a crack at writing such a rule, I'd be very interested to see the result.
Beth Sweet
30-03-2005, 12:19
What about the majority of FIRST teams that don't have the funds and materials to build a second robot? It doesn't make it fair for the teams that do to have the extra practice driving and whatnot. I don't think there would be a problem building a second robot, as long as it doesn't have anything to do with this year competition.
When you go out into the work world, what if you don't work for the company that has the most money? What if your company can't afford to do things that other companies can? If I've heard it said once, I've heard it a thousand times, FIRST is trying to prepare you for the real world. Sometimes you're on top, sometimes you're not. FIRST on the other hand, gives every team equal opportunity. Every team can fundraise enough money for an extra robot. If your team doesn't have that kind of money and says it's not fair, then maybe some extra fundraising would put you on a playing field that you feel is more level.
bhweezer
02-04-2005, 00:33
We host and facilitate the largest and most profitable student run fundraiser in the southeast. Our corporate funding covers our registration fees and thats about it. All 32 members go to regionals and nationals for free and in most cases GET money to cover food and other necessities. Fund raising isn't necessary for us to build a second robot.
Why can't we use our resources to build a second robot on something NOT related to this years competition? If we want kids to learn more then why not use spare parts from previous years to build the ultimate robot for past competitions.
eugenebrooks
02-04-2005, 01:01
Why can't we use our resources to build a second robot on something NOT related to this years competition? If we want kids to learn more then why not use spare parts from previous years to build the ultimate robot for past competitions.
You are not precluded from building a second robot, either a practice robot that is identical to your competition robot, or one unrelated to your competition robot, and using it for practice after the fix it window. Any ambiguity in the rules has been adequately clarified in the Q+A on the FIRST web site. The restrictions are placed on the parts you can bring and use on your competition robot (those machined during the build period, or during the fix-it window, and limited to 25 pounds), and the means by which you can update the RC code on your competition robot (with your fingers after the pits open).
Some teams neither need nor want any mercy...
craigbutcher
04-04-2005, 15:16
At the last regional while talking to kids from various teams it seemed clear to me that more than one or two teams were not following the development rules. It looks like there has been a lot of fabrication, testing, and assembly going on outside of the window. Two kids told me they thought the rules allowed them to fabricate entire new assemblies and bring them in so they could bolt onto the robot and go, another thought it was OK if you disassembled the assemblies and just reassembled them on the practice day. One thought you had to use only store bought parts but you could practice fabricating assemblies and were OK so long as you did all the actual work on Thursday.
Our understanding was you can't even cut a piece of tubing to length for the robot between matches--all you were allowed to do was cut it so it would fit in your car. In fact, you weren't even supposed to work on code. Could you order a custom fabbed part from an external source? Probably not. But it was clear that a number of kids thought lots of things were all right.
Maybe my understanding was too stringent. Am I really upset? I don't think so, really. Even though as a rookie team we certainly could have used the extra time for design and testing and learning, it wasn't the fixit window that kept us from winning a regional! The robots from the experienced teams really were terrific!
The kids I talked to from other teams didn't act as though they thought they were breaking any rules. They were clearly committed to First principles and were in it for the game. And it makes no sense to knowingly cheat anyway. What does it mean to win a tennis match if all your own shots are "in" ?
I am, though, a little disappointed. Could it really be that there is so much confusion about what is allowed?
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