View Full Version : What are you going to do to your Human player?
I was just thinking of all the work the human player this year is going to do. They will have to be able to run very fast and if need repeadly so a team can keep loading there bot at the human loading zone.
My question to all the teams out there is:
Are you going to have your Human player practice running wind sprints and running with tetras the 10-16 ft? or whatever it is, or are you going to just let the one person who asks to do it?
this year there is going to be a lot of running by the human player back and forth over and over agian and if the human gets tired out that is time that there bot is turned off.
Jeff Rodriguez
10-01-2005, 17:00
Shuttle runs
Pi Is Exactly 3
10-01-2005, 17:01
WE GOT TRACK KIDS!
Two of our robotics members, our webmaster and our animations specialist, are in winter track. So I imagine they'll be in good shape by March.
boy_scout72688
10-01-2005, 17:02
This season is going to be fun for the human players. The human player not only will have to run fast they will have to be able to stand still on the presure pad too. Does anyone have any ideas for the human player training
James
looneylin
10-01-2005, 17:06
Yep, we're probably going to make our HPs do shuttle runs n compete against each other
But i think, in the end, we'll use the fastest person who knows the game well n pays attention to the bot. That's what u have to really look for in a HP so u don't get penalties
Eugenia Gabrielov
10-01-2005, 17:06
I think the psychological thing is gonna be really rough on human players, just standing still and watching when you wanna jump up and down in excitement or wave around in horror.
Some ideas include:
Just put up your track kids...:).
Lots of sprints. Calculate the distance between the human player pad and the load zone, and multiply that by too (running back as well). Multiply that distance by say...at most 10 a match (running more than they need to keeps em in shape). Multiply that by the rough number of rounds per day of competition. Your human player should be able to run that distance, with a 5 lb. weight in each hand (equal arm development) very very fast. That's only if you're all hardcore though. The human player does need to be in awesome shape, or else things will be tough for your team.
Pi Is Exactly 3
10-01-2005, 17:17
I think track kids will definitely do it. Especially when they're returning members of our robotics team.
Last year I was the human player, I've played basketball for... umm... lemme count... 10-ish years. We WERE going to make me the human player this year, although I'm fast, I have little endurance and the team thinks I'd be of more use as a coach. So keep your track kids in shape!
sanddrag
10-01-2005, 17:19
The Bowflex arrives on Wednesday. Naw, j/k But human player training is a valid concern. I could see a lot of pulled muscles if the person is not in shape for the runing back and forth.
Eugenia Gabrielov
10-01-2005, 17:27
I think this is gonna add a whole new scene of stuff at competition. There should be, in all seriousness, area for human players to stretch out. It may sound stupid, but a pulled muscle means a human player may be out of commission for the entire competition. If your team doesn't already have a first aid kit, get one now :).
This means that you should probably train multiple human players for the task.
Joshua May
10-01-2005, 17:39
I think this is gonna add a whole new scene of stuff at competition. There should be, in all seriousness, area for human players to stretch out. It may sound stupid, but a pulled muscle means a human player may be out of commission for the entire competition. If your team doesn't already have a first aid kit, get one now :).
This means that you should probably train multiple human players for the task.
We've got one track kid on our team, but I seriously doubt he'll be able to stand still on the mat for 2 minutes. I was the Human Player in 2003, which required running, but I'm not a very good runner, just showed up to comp and was told that I'd be the HP. I'm sure someone on our team is fast and can stand still, we'll just have them practice alot.
Well, they really don't need to be quick. if you have someone with REALLY long legs, they can just take some quick long strides to the loading area. You also have to remeber, they have to move at a 'safe' speed.
RoboCat05
10-01-2005, 17:54
I think it will all be which teams HP has patience and doesn't get ahead of themselves when running back and forth. They just have to keep cool and run fast.
EddieMcD
10-01-2005, 18:10
I think this is gonna add a whole new scene of stuff at competition. There should be, in all seriousness, area for human players to stretch out. It may sound stupid, but a pulled muscle means a human player may be out of commission for the entire competition. If your team doesn't already have a first aid kit, get one now :).
I totally agree. We're actually venturing into intese action for the human players this year. I can already invision pulled muscles, twisted ankles, broken bones from tripping, and of course, turf toe. It's purely my opinion, but I do believe FIRST will address this by the first week of regionals. Otherwise, we may have an injury list that reads like a football report.
Greg Marra
10-01-2005, 18:12
One of the things I was worried about, given the arena's low walls, is someone tripping and falling INTO the play area. :ahh: Plus don't forget that you can only touch the outside of the wall to balance yourself, i'm pretty sure grabbing the top like a railing is illegal. Gotta make sure you don't get those penalties (or hit by a robot).
tkwetzel
10-01-2005, 18:29
The human players do not need to be fast runners. Considering the short distance, they will not get up to running speed by the time they get to the robot or back to the pressure pad. They will just need to be quick in manuervering, because turning around will be the part that takes more time. I also liked the comment that long legs would be beneficial, because they probably would be.
Aaron Lussier
10-01-2005, 18:37
I'm thinking a gymnast, they can have the tetra, front roll with it, place it on the bot and backflip on to the pad. No more than a few second per tetra.
-Aaron
greencactus3
10-01-2005, 18:40
The human players do not need to be fast runners. Considering the short distance, they will not get up to running speed by the time they get to the robot or back to the pressure pad. They will just need to be quick in manuervering, because turning around will be the part that takes more time. I also liked the comment that long legs would be beneficial, because they probably would be.
exactly. and sprinters are not meant to do sudden stops. so basketball people might be the best choice.
Eugenia Gabrielov
10-01-2005, 18:42
I'd like to present another aspect to human player coordination. Wouldn't you possibly have more than 1 running back and forth at the same time? It would be helpful to teach your human player potentials to run in a straight line and be courteous to their ally human players.
phrontist
10-01-2005, 18:52
In soviet russia, YOU stop moving when robot leaves pressure pad!
You're right, we need to whip someone into shape. I think we'll actually make a pressure pad and hook it up to a computer so we can time people...
Whatever you do, make sure they are using actual tets, because running with a weight is much easier.
Luckily, our team has two track stars on it.
:D
--Petey
Travis Hoffman
10-01-2005, 18:59
Who says the human player has to ever leave the pad....
Eugenia Gabrielov
10-01-2005, 19:03
Who says the human player has to ever leave the pad....
There may be situations throughout the round where it is simply more convenient to hit up the "human player" side of the field for tetras. For example, it may save time if you are going for a goal on that side of the field, or the other side may be clogged up with offense-defense action so you have to get your tetras from this side. I definitly see what you're saying based on strategy, but it is better to have your human player prepared and not use them, rather then to run into a situation where they need to be quick and them not be prepared.
Who says the human player has to ever leave the pad....
I agree. The "automated" loading stations seem much more efficient for getting tetras. If you can design something to pick up a tetra put on your robot by a human player, you can probably design something to take the tetras off of the stands on the other side of the field.
lilszek24
10-01-2005, 19:14
our problem isn't the fact that our human player needs to be in shape, but we need to find someone who is calm enough to just stand on the pad and wait to do what they have to. and not be jumping up down. making our robot stop every two seconds
The human player this year has to be of sound mind and body. Sound mind becasue they have to be aware of the game, understand the rules, pay attention to whats going on but have the discipline to sty calm so not to mistakenly disable the robot. They have to be of sound body because those Tetras are heavy (like lifting a small chair. Puts real stress on the forearms. They have to be careful when carrying them to the field and they may have to lift them higher to give them to the robot.
The human play is going to have to be at the top of their game this year.
Has anyone else actually timed the scoring and loading necessities?
It may surprise you how long it takes.
Automated will be long as well, I think.
--Petey
Another thing to remember is the that the communication between the drivers or coach and the HP is going to be really important as when to go out for the loading zone and such. Also the human player is going to have to be very familiar with placing the tetra on or in the robot so there are as few missed seconds as possible, there are some great exercises that i can recommend for anyone who knows they will be the human player, (I have some running stuff and lifting stuff from football camp at University or Maryland.)
Also remember that all the track stars that you have are a great advantage but most track people are used to lots or long distance, unless they do sprints, and not having to carry a 8.5lb odd shape and place it then running back to a still position.
Ianworld
10-01-2005, 21:36
I was teasing our human player from last year. He was new to the team and a freshman but turned out to be an amazing shot. You could count the number of shots he missed on 3 hands (and we were a ball collector). "Hey tal, how're those pressure switch skills, any good at standing around, etc... I think he's going to be in the stands this time ;)
Actually i think its goin to be usefull to be tall. If your human player can reach seven or eight feet up your robot won't have to come down as far to get a Tetra. Of course most of this is moot if your robot can get the tetras off the auto stations. But even robots that use the auto stations will probably get blocked from going there and will rush to the human stations to get a tetra.
Is the human player allowed to carry more than one tetra, and place them on the robot?
Is the human player allowed to carry more than one tetra, and place it on the tetra?
No as of now they can only take one tetra at a time just like the auto loading zone, to get more then one the bot has to leave the zone and then drive back on and that means the HP has to run back and forth again.
FreakyAntelope
10-01-2005, 21:39
I agree. The "automated" loading stations seem much more efficient for getting tetras. If you can design something to pick up a tetra put on your robot by a human player, you can probably design something to take the tetras off of the stands on the other side of the field.
I actually took that to mean that he was intending to just have a human player that could reach really far...
What? No, really! :-D
- Toby
Joshua May
10-01-2005, 22:03
so basketball people might be the best choice.
Maybe the HP could just shoot tetras onto the robot? We'll just re-use our HPs from 2004 in that case.
Billfred
10-01-2005, 22:04
Negative. No throwing tetras.
(source: the manchester kickoff--wasn't that Dave?)
Goobergunch
10-01-2005, 22:07
Negative. No throwing tetras.
(source: the manchester kickoff--wasn't that Dave?)
Woodie, IIRC.
Isabel Cole
10-01-2005, 22:42
haha i don't think you need to TRAIN runners. i don't remember who said it but someone said they wont be running too far and the most important thing is to remain calm and collected. remember, the tetrads are not so light that you can run very quickly and come to an abrupt stop with. you'd want to be more careful. just make sure your 'runner' can lift it!
wouldn't want to be disqualified because of a human player after working so hard for 6 weeks on your robot, now would you?... just my two cents.
EddieMcD
11-01-2005, 00:09
Negative. No throwing tetras.
(source: the manchester kickoff--wasn't that Dave?)
And rule <G23>.
The thing I think you are all forgetting is that there are 3 HP's now with only two HP loading zones so only 2 Hp's will be loading at once max.
Also don't hurt yourselves, It's a game, have fun.
ps. I can see it now, The Blue Alliance is about to get this great score: In the final seconds your team is about to cap a goal and get these huge multipliers, but your HP is jumping with excitement and disables the bot... And your winner is Red.
Have a nice day.
The thing I think you are all forgetting is that there are 3 HP's now with only two HP loading zones so only 2 Hp's will be loading at once max.
Also don't hurt yourselves, It's a game, have fun.
ps. I can see it now, The Blue Alliance is about to get this great score: In the final seconds your team is about to cap a goal and get these huge multipliers, but your HP is jumping with excitement and disables the bot... And your winner is Red.
Have a nice day.
I think you'll see more teams mad at their human player than any other year in FIRST.
in all honisty, i dont think our team will be using our HP's. we are aiming for being fully remote(and 60% automated) for our tetra dealings.
Same, 1418 will have a human player that can remain calm and not move. We will have a particular system that cannot be turned off during the round, if we power off, then the system's memory clears. So our human player will probably be a large guy who cannot jump. He has a spine disorder because he is about 7' tall and it is really hard for him to jump. That and he isn't excitable and he's lazy. All this means that we have a person that can keep the pressure on the plate 100% of the time.
Twstdkittie
11-01-2005, 09:09
in all honisty, i dont think our team will be using our HP's. we are aiming for being fully remote(and 60% automated) for our tetra dealings.
Are you completely chucking the idea of using the hps? Cuz I wouldnt throw out the possibility. If anything were to go wrong, you would need a backup plan, and if you throw out ideas now, you won't be able to come up w/ them on the spot later when you need them.
Our team is very energetic, so I think our biggest problem won't be losing the stamina for dodging back and forth to place tetras, but actually standing still on the pads to keep the robot going. Definitely have to work on that!
Deltafrog
11-01-2005, 11:05
I think the refs wil probably not let us run for safety reasons. :cool:
Heretic121
11-01-2005, 11:24
we are going to have ours sit there unless needed =P
Zanella BR
11-01-2005, 11:38
I was just thinking of all the work the human player this year is going to do. They will have to be able to run very fast and if need repeadly so a team can keep loading there bot at the human loading zone.
My question to all the teams out there is:
Are you going to have your Human player practice running wind sprints and running with tetras the 10-16 ft? or whatever it is, or are you going to just let the one person who asks to do it?
this year there is going to be a lot of running by the human player back and forth over and over agian and if the human gets tired out that is time that there bot is turned off.
That's a importante point, it's better to choose a athlete :D
Specially with that heavy tetras....
dhitchco
11-01-2005, 11:39
Maybe Dean will provide a Segue scooter for the teams to use by their human players to race from the pad to the sideline while carrying a Tetra.
Hmmmm... an autonomous Segue scooter (hands-free) too.
I'll stick to having the team do "synchronized" running but no jumping on the pad.
Are you completely chucking the idea of using the hps? Cuz I wouldnt throw out the possibility. If anything were to go wrong, you would need a backup plan, and if you throw out ideas now, you won't be able to come up w/ them on the spot later when you need them.
that is exactly the only reason we will havew them out ther.
HINT: a machanical clone of an out of bounds sentinal
We have many Cross Country team members on our team. Speed is no problem ;)
I dont think human palyers need any skill this year. Last year you depended on them for shooting, and could carry the match. This year thier little more than trained dogs who run back and forth. Sure some can run faster than others, but what does that get you, 5-8 seconds over the course of an entire match maybe?
well, with all the penalties the human player can inflict this year, i plan to drill my teams. Every point deduction recieved the will be punished by as many floggings!
Brandon Holley
11-01-2005, 19:49
While I can completely see where people are coming from with the training and other ways to practice, I dont see it being that huge. Yes they will need to be fast, but they will also need to be very cool under pressure. One wrong move and poof 20 point penalty and a disabled robot. If a human player trips and stumbles onto the field, what do you think could happen? penalties, disablings...i really dont know. A human player this year needs to be smart and light on their feet. You can only load one at a time anyway, so a quick trip there and back shouldnt be too difficult.
Conor Ryan
11-01-2005, 20:27
well, with all the penalties the human player can inflict this year, i plan to drill my teams. Every point deduction recieved the will be punished by as many floggings!
i agree lets beat them into shape. But i'm faced with a controversey, should i use a Cat O' Nine Tails or the Regular Whip, for some reason people won't let me use the studded one?
actually can we just not use a human player? and skip the risk of a point reduction?
I dont think human palyers need any skill this year. Last year you depended on them for shooting, and could carry the match. This year thier little more than trained dogs who run back and forth. Sure some can run faster than others, but what does that get you, 5-8 seconds over the course of an entire match maybe?
Quite.
They are little more than glorified switches: trained monkeys. No real skill--just the ability to start, stop, and carry.
We could train a robot to do what they do.
--Petey
heh well plans change dont they? human will be out main form of loading. lol
tribotec_ca88
12-01-2005, 06:47
LoL :yikes: this is an interesting thread...
I personally donīt think it needs to be someone extremely fast, unless your teamīs strategy relies dependently on your human player. Above all, you need someone thatīs focused, willing to pay attention to whatīs going on and prepared to react when all goes wrong. The recipe for the ideal human player is someone disciplined and concentrated...Ok, and preferrably in shape, too :D
I was just thinking of all the work the human player this year is going to do. They will have to be able to run very fast and if need repeadly so a team can keep loading there bot at the human loading zone.
My question to all the teams out there is:
Are you going to have your Human player practice running wind sprints and running with tetras the 10-16 ft? or whatever it is, or are you going to just let the one person who asks to do it?
this year there is going to be a lot of running by the human player back and forth over and over agian and if the human gets tired out that is time that there bot is turned off.
Most likely FIRST wont let the human players run do to safety
robolemur1236
12-01-2005, 09:28
i think that the hp will probably need more balance than speed, because you have to put the tetra onto the robot, and if you arrive too fast... kaput. speed is nice, but only in combination with balance. plus, if they have balance that probably means they have control, which means they could stay on the pad fairly easily.
we're going as a mix of auto and hp loading right now, any thoughts?
EddieMcD
12-01-2005, 16:46
I dont think human palyers need any skill this year. Last year you depended on them for shooting, and could carry the match. This year thier little more than trained dogs who run back and forth. Sure some can run faster than others, but what does that get you, 5-8 seconds over the course of an entire match maybe? You mean those 5-8 seconds which can be used to cap one last goal, possibly for a tic-tac-toe or two (or even take one or more away from the opposition), and switch the scoring around quite dramatically? Or maybe you meant those 5-8 seconds in which you can sprint back to your end zone for an extra 10 points.
My point is that a well-trained HP can shave seconds compared to others, and those seconds can be vital.
bigqueue
15-01-2005, 23:10
Software people have had the secret for years now:
A steady diet of Jolt Cola and Twinkies.... :eek:
cinderblock
16-01-2005, 01:09
Unless I'm mistaken, it'll be much more effective to just get the tetras from the auto loader, i mean, to latch onto the tetra and all, it would be easier to make to robot do the grabbing instead of human player doing the giving.
tkwetzel
16-01-2005, 10:39
Software people have had the secret for years now:
A steady diet of Jolt Cola and Twinkies.... :eek:
That would be especially great this year...let's get them all wired up so they can't stand still on the pressure mat!
Winged Wonder
17-01-2005, 01:12
our "human" player is frank. he is made out of legos. :]
joking aside, our human players (and drivers) are taking a written test on the rules (so we dont have to get mad at them for breaking any rules) and the HPs trying out will be doing "suicides" like football players do; except they will run one way with a tetra, place it on the robot or whatever, and run back to the pressure pad and STAY there.. without overshooting. i think overshooting may be a big deal.. actually stopping after running x amount of time actually can get kind of hard due to momentum. so our human player has to get from point A to point B back to point A without killing themselves, the robot, or any other human players. we'll have backups of course, in the event of an emergency.
what if you accidentally ran into an alliance member's HP, therefore rendering both of your robors disabled since the HPs will be tangled on the floor along with some tetras? ...that would be bad.
also, the way the HP stations are set up, you're at a serious disadvantage if you are the 3rd HP; you're farther away than the other two HPs from the loading stations, and if you have to run to the loading station closest to the center of the playing field, that looks like a little over 25 feet of running!
umm... does anyone know how long the delay is (if there is any delay at all) between the time when the human player steps on the pad and when the robot is no longer disabled? just being electical.. it cant be INSTANT... there should be a little delay, just thinking logically. and if some team just so happens to jump on it.. i dont know it just makes me think of an old DDR pad.. the more you step on the same part, as time goes on, sometimes it doesnt like you and wont register that you actually pressed it (therefore ruining your AA). but i dont know thats just me placing my two cents on things to consider...
welll, Our team's HP is will most likely end up bound, or maybe just tied to the pressure plate... somehow I just can't see anyone on our team standing still long enough to allow our robot to keep moving.
Autonomous loading sounds great, but think about how much each tetra weighs, and how far from the field they are...
lpramo55
17-01-2005, 09:24
I agree. i think the auto loading zone would be of more benefit depending on the ability of your robot. you might stack tetra's on your bots manipulator to put a stack on top of a goal by leaving the human loading zone then reentering that would be quite time consuming though. i dont see the benefit in any other way.
Bcahn836
17-01-2005, 09:42
Team 836's human player runs cross country, indoor and outdoor track, and he is tall. And he continues to run when the running season is over. He kinda got volunteered for this job.
Well I only know what one of our human players does. He runs track 6 times a week, speed skates 3 times a week. And before nationals he'll be spending a week in the mountains of colorado training for the upcoming professional speed skating season. By the way that human player is me :D .
Ok, i don't know if any of you are aware of this, but FIRST has said that the human player will not be 'handing' the robot a tetra in one of thier updates, i'd imagine that this was to prevent any injuries from opposing robots.
Stephen P
17-01-2005, 21:08
Wonder if you could rig up a system on your bot that would eject casters or go into neutral so that the bot could coast into the loading area after being shut off. You could give your human a head start for quicker loading times. :D
Bernardo F
10-02-2005, 18:41
Unless I'm mistaken, it'll be much more effective to just get the tetras from the auto loader, i mean, to latch onto the tetra and all, it would be easier to make to robot do the grabbing instead of human player doing the giving.
Isn't it also possible to grab a tetra from the auto loader, back up, then grab the next tetra while holding on to the first?
The human players do not need to be fast runners. Considering the short distance, they will not get up to running speed by the time they get to the robot or back to the pressure pad. They will just need to be quick in manuervering, because turning around will be the part that takes more time. I also liked the comment that long legs would be beneficial, because they probably would be.
This year, our human player won't be doing much. We think it would be better to let the robot do the work. So we have to find somebody on our team who can stand still for long periods of time...this must be what takes six weeks, finding that someone.
Goober!!!
10-02-2005, 20:58
Are team is going to loading on the self loading place thingy that is on the other side of the human loading place so my team human player is just going to stand there for the hole time. haha laugh at my team mate and hope its not me and it might be me lol!!! :yikes:
Lil' Lavery
10-02-2005, 22:03
Several distance shuttle runs. Cus well, there are 6 different runs they will have to do(3 player pads x 2 loading stations), and forcing them to stand still. Yay for those who are not only in track, but also marching band! Go Baxter go! :p
Our human player will feature the capabilities required in a sprinter. When the robot is in motion, this person will remain calm and avoid expressions of calamity. However, upon any arrivals to the human player zone, this human player will quickly take a tetra over to the robot.
I keep wondering when first will begin to let teams use a robot as the "human player" as long as it is constructed in under 6 weeks, and fits the size and weight restrictions of the competition.
Wow, i didn't realize how cool that would actually be until i wrote it down.... So Dean, can we have a competition where 2 bots are used?
..... runs off thinking of 2 robot game ideas.....
663.keith
17-02-2005, 16:48
we ha a human player who was good at track, and was pretty much perfect for the role. Unfortunately, last monday the (possibly) broke their leg so they are on crutches for quite a while. :(
back to the drawing board
I was just thinking of all the work the human player this year is going to do. They will have to be able to run very fast and if need repeadly so a team can keep loading there bot at the human loading zone.
My question to all the teams out there is:
Are you going to have your Human player practice running wind sprints and running with tetras the 10-16 ft? or whatever it is, or are you going to just let the one person who asks to do it?
this year there is going to be a lot of running by the human player back and forth over and over agian and if the human gets tired out that is time that there bot is turned off. our runner sorta volunteered/ was asked
ductape_man
19-02-2005, 23:33
alot of out team members also play soccer, so we have a good selection of people. Human player is either gonna be me, or one other guy(he was human player last 2 years)
Shu Song
19-02-2005, 23:55
We have a few runners on the team, but it looks like a programmer, an electronics guy (me) and perhaps another programmer will end up being human player. No mechanical person will be human player because none tried out for it.
Don't ge me wrong, those two programmers are FAST, but you certainly dont' expect people who sit in front of a computer all day staring at lines of code to be very athletic. Hopefully, these programmers will prove me wrong.
Quatitos
20-02-2005, 00:32
Tommorow we actually plan on bringing ddr and making the human player practice for most of the day. This will get down their quick foot work and the fast reflexes that we need in a human player.
Squeje250
20-02-2005, 00:57
ummmmm i am not sure yet BUT it looks like our human player is goin to just stand there for 2min 30sec. so ya we are not goin to make him do nething :D
Based on the title alone i refer to this thread....
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=35008
:eek:
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