in the pits [Archive] - Chief Delphi

Zippiot

13-01-2005, 23:57

i have a few questions about wut we can "play with" in the pits. some of them are given nos but i just wanna check
first off can me make a tiny robot (like a 1 foot square bot) equipped with a camera to drive around the pits, we wud steer it from a monitor at our pit, and possibly record it and such.

the next few im sure arent allowed but i wanna be sure
can we fly a r/c blimp with a camera to get a birds eye view of the pits?
can we put giant green halogens on our bot to distract the sensors on other bots?
can we use a hovercraft (made on many small hover "pods") to transport our robot, the hovercrafts will make it extremely easy to move and such. actually at nationals we saw little tug robots used to pull their main bot so i think this one might be allowed.
can we have a camera on the bot that records battles ,wireless it transmits to our pit where we will have a tv/vcr.
if i think of anything else ill post it...

FusionDude364

14-01-2005, 00:00

I would think that in an area as crowded in the pits your robot would have serious trouble. It is a cool idea, but the pits are generally very crowded with people (at nationals anyway) and your robot may get stepped on, kicked, etc. If you were thinking using it for scouting purposes then it would be better to just go ask a team questions and take a camera to take pictures of their robot.

Billfred

14-01-2005, 00:03

Welcome to ChiefDelphi! (By the way, the locals appreciate punctuation and spelling. There's a spell check right by the post button.)

In the order you asked them... no, you wouldn't be able to drive around a mini-robot. The pit lanes are crowded enough.

As for the blimp, I doubt that would be allowed. Safety, and FIRST Engineering frowns upon wireless cameras, as they tend to use the same frequencies as the robots themselves.

Green halogens? NO, NO, NO. Check the manual for details.

Hovercraft to haul the bot? I can't see why this would be disallowed, assuming it is safe and relatively quiet. However, build that hovercraft to last, or bring a little red wagon just in case.

Again, wireless cameras tend to be disallowed. Have someone contact FIRST about it.

Zippiot

14-01-2005, 00:09

thanks for the quick replies, and im sorry for my puncuation and spelling i usually look at the keyboard when i type. are these definate no's or just an educated guess?
as far as the camera goes is there any way to do it or is it just out of the question?
the hovercraft is no louder than the puts themselves, and sice we made it out of 4 small hover pods it doesn't lean, meaning that it stays in place unless we move it.

another question, are there restrictions on "tug bots" (separate bots we make to tow our robot, most likely ride on)?

russell

14-01-2005, 00:12

keep in mind that the people on the intercom will flip if they pick up a lot of radio noise coming from the pits. You cannot use your robot with radio modems in the pits (though I was just reading stuff on the controller and its supposed to identify the team number), so if your mini bot, blimp, or any of the rest of the stuff was going to use a radio (900 whatever units i believe is frequency the bots use) you might want to clear it with FIRST first.

dez250

14-01-2005, 00:14

i have a few questions about wut we can "play with" in the pits. some of them are given nos but i just wanna check
first off -(A)- can me make a tiny robot (like a 1 foot square bot) equipped with a camera to drive around the pits, we wud steer it from a monitor at our pit, and possibly record it and such.

the next few im sure arent allowed but i wanna be sure:
-(B)- can we fly a r/c blimp with a camera to get a birds eye view of the pits?
-(C)- can we put giant green halogens on our bot to distract the sensors on other bots?
-(D)- can we use a hovercraft (made on many small hover "pods") to transport our robot, the hovercrafts will make it extremely easy to move and such. actually at nationals we saw little tug robots used to pull their main bot so i think this one might be allowed.
-(E)- can we have a camera on the bot that records battles ,wireless it transmits to our pit where we will have a tv/vcr.
if i think of anything else ill post it...

I Labled them to make it a lil easier to help answer...

-(A)- No this would be a hazard to people moving through the pits and could create some problems.

-(B)- If it contains helium then no, your cant bring helium into FIRST events, its a hazard. Otherwise, maybe but you'll have to clear the camera with FIRST Staff prior to using it.

-(C)- No this is against multiple rules and please see this thread: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=32226

-(D)- I dont know about this, if it is going to be hazardous you probablly will be asked not to use it. I would say test it out make sure its not going to cause any problems and bring a push cart so if you are asked to not use it, you have a backup plan.

-(E)- Like question B, you would have to clear this with FIRST Staff prior to use on the bot, it would have to be fed to a seperate area where recoding can be done off of and it cant be a 900MHz transmission. Check with team 100 about this they have had a camera on their bot before.

Hope some of this helps...

Zippiot

14-01-2005, 00:18

wow you guyz are awsome!
so on the blimp i thought that they would have had a problem with sumthing flying around, but is there a rule against it? and if not hellium what to use ( after a deaf left ear and many lost eyebrows i dont plan on using hydrogen)?

Zippiot

14-01-2005, 00:20

can we have removeable green plates? i know we would have to weight in with them on.
also any rules on the tug bot (like a slow tank drive kart thing)?

jgannon

14-01-2005, 00:25

can we have removeable green plates?
NO. Read the manual and search these forums. You'll get answers to these questions a lot faster.

jzampier

14-01-2005, 00:28

Being heavily involved w/ the Finger Lakes Regional on various levels... I'll definitely tell you that the Blimp is out. There will be a lot of overhead equipment and it is certainly a safety hazard.

Zippiot

14-01-2005, 00:33

jzampier

14-01-2005, 00:42

This is an experience related answer...
Powered carts are usually frowned on. Mostly because they are harder to
control (ie stop.) than something you pull/push.
That and people associate them with car stereos... (long story)

Summary:
No rule against it that I know of.. but your time and resources are probably
better spent elsewhere.
Other things to spend the time on:
1. Nice portable workstation/Pit area for competition
2. Researching sensors/other cool electronics for auto control.
3. prototyping a base for the controls team to use for testing.

again, for this ?, this is just my $0.02

Andy A.

14-01-2005, 00:50

thats wut i thought about the blimp, but wut about the tug kart? wut r the restrictions on a powered kart 9tug the robot on a trailer behind it)?
my team really wants to build one and we got the materials for it.

Zippiot-

Strictly speaking there are no restrictions on a powered cart in the manual. Site specific rules on this may differ. Many teams do have and use them. As long as you are not transmitting anything, not using any hazardous materials and do not present a hazard (like running people down with it), it probably won't be an issue.

However, speaking from my own experience, powered carts are more of a pain then they are worth. They tend to be clumsy, to slow or to fast, prone to failure and take up valuable space in the pits. Some teams seem to like them, but they are a minority. Invest your time or money in a good non powered cart. It won't be as flashy, but it will get you and your bot to the field with a minimum of hassle.

What ever you do, remember that you're cart will need to be pushed over some pretty annoying cable covers and through tight spaces. Nice pneumatic wheels and a steerable end are very advantageous. Think Radio Flyer, but bigger.

-Andy A.

Zippiot

14-01-2005, 00:50

wut about a hovercraft trailer towed behind a tug, that wud make the trailer have very little weight so it wud be easy to tow.
i know about the car speakers thing, it just irritates me how a team can spend that much on a big useless thign while other teams (who beat them and won the regionals btw) have to pay their own way to regionals and nationals.
last year my team had to carry hundreds of pounds of crap across a college campus to thearena, a tug thign wud make that so mch eaier, and it give sus sumthin to play with outside during our downtime between matches...thats my excuse to build, that and we have a mon th between ship date and comp date. i cud do it at my house also, its jsut a fram with motors and wheels nuthin special.

Zippiot

14-01-2005, 00:51

Alavinus

14-01-2005, 01:02

so its a no to the removeable panels, but wut about a shell for the robot (fits over the frame to protect it and such) we cud have 2 different color ones, a green and a black so that if we have a sensing bot on our team we can change it prior to the match to avoid problems.

Please, Please, Please, read the rules! This is a banned example from the rulebook. You are not allowed to do ANYTHING color wise to disrupt the sensing capabilities of any Robot on the field. Let the sensing robots sense and applaud them for the difficulty in getting a complex system off the ground within build time.

As for the cart- I strongly suggest a nonpowered cart pulled by people power. The pits are very tight and that can make a motorized cart hard to control. Plus, you are not allowed to have anything off tether in the pits, so you would have to have a driver anyway.

Anthony Kesich

14-01-2005, 01:04

Again, this answer can be easily answered by searching or reading the manual. But I have done the same thing before.

Anywho, anything that would interfere with a sensor (like painting the robot green or yellow, possibly even blue or red) is strictly prohibited. So anything green or yellow (besides something really small and out of the way) is a no-no.

Hope this helps.

-Tony K

dez250

14-01-2005, 01:19

Please see the following post (via the link) to see how making your bot green will effect the competition. While saying this i will reiterate the rules, [at this time] it is legal to make your robot any color you would like, including florescent green, but it may not be the best choice to do so.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=318137&postcount=88

The rule on whats illegal in respect to disrupting the vision system is as follow:

<R26> No devices or decorations are permitted on the robot that are intended to jam or interfere with the operation of the vision system (i.e. changing robot color to confuse opponent’s vision system).

RoboMom

14-01-2005, 07:14

Although not specifically addressing any of your issues, there is an overview handout in the white papers on "Tips for In the Pits" that everyone might take a look at.

Mark Pettit

14-01-2005, 08:42

A hovercraft to carry your robot around would be neat, but you better make it so that it can navigate over obstacles. I can't remember any regional that didn't have electrical cords spanning across the walkways (we even have trouble getting our rolling carts over them sometimes) to power the pit stations and admin tables. These are covered over for safety, but it's still a leap to get over them at times.

Zippiot

15-01-2005, 20:32

I know that the pits are crowded, what my team wanted this year was an easier way to tansport the bot than a push or pull cart. This is because at my regional there were wires everywhere, many not taped over, which made it very difficult to push a 130 pound cart around. We have experimented with the hovercrafts and have calculated that we can make a 4-pod craft that will be about 4 feet wide and 5 feet long, it can easily overcome a watterbotle in the way nonetheless a few wires. We have complete control over it because of the 4 pod design, and it takes as much effort to push the cart as it does to brush my teeth. If you still think that this is too big we may be able to scale it down a little, but i am confident that it wont be too massive.

BoyWithCape195

15-01-2005, 21:00

Don't forget, you might be required to fit through a standard size door, with minimal room, such as turn to get in the door. Last year we had trouble fitting through the doors with our cart which was smaller then four feet wide.

jimfortytwo

15-01-2005, 21:28

Don't fool yourself-- a 130 pound robot on a hovercraft is not going to be any easier to accellerate or stop than a 130 pound robot on a good cart. Its still a lot of mass to get moving. Also, it will be harder to steer. If you consider a pull-wagon, if you want to turn you just walk in a small arc and the cart follows behind you. The lateral friction of the tires helps you turn. With a hovercraft, if you want to turn 90 degrees you'll first have to stop its motion in the original direction, and then get it started again in the new direction. Our team build our carts with 8" outdoor pneumatic tires... its a smooth ride over almost anything.

Gamer930

15-01-2005, 21:53

4 feet wide and 5 feet longLet me see. . . . . .
48 inch wide hover craft fitting through a standard 36 inch door. Please take a picture when this happens.
The robot max size is 28 x 38. My suggestion would to build a cart that is max 32 inches wide.

Zippiot

15-01-2005, 23:00

we never had to go through a 36 inch door...so i dont know wut to say. plus is is easier to accelerate think about it, there is no friction from the ground that tires woudl cause, but yes that does mean its harder to stop. u dont have to stop it in order to make a turn, just nudge it inthe new direction. if u had to stop a regular hovercraft in order to make a turn then there would be no use for it. and the hovercraft itself is made of 4 smaller hovercrafts, making it very stable and it will not rock from side to side either.

Greg Ross

15-01-2005, 23:47

...im sorry for my puncuation and spelling i usually look at the keyboard when i type.
[dons curmudgeon hat]
No excuse. Please proofread before you post.

It's one thing if you have a learning disability, and are unable to learn to spell and punctuate correctly. But from your excuse that you "usually look at the keyboard while [you] type", I surmise that had you read before you posted, you could have corrected the errors. Therefore, no excuse.

If it's worth posting, it's worth taking pride in. Please proofread.
[doffs curmudgeon hat]

russell

15-01-2005, 23:55

I personally am really bad at grammar and such. I dont remember ever being taught, but I may just have forgotten. Just thought Id throw that in.

D.Fahringer

16-01-2005, 10:10

I would always want to see something cool and unique at these events, but you have to be reasonable. Not all people are going to be as enthusiastic as you with your new creation. I am pretty sure the hovercraft cart would be blowing dirt, dust and little metal chips into the breathing air of teams near the floor working on their robots. There is leakage around the skirt to consider. Use it for technical education, fund-raising, and FUN !

Koko Ed

16-01-2005, 10:17

I still remember that massive boombox on wheels that one team had in Atlanta (forgot the number) and beside it being illegal I wonder how well they got along with the otehr teams who probably don't want to hear thumping bass all day long.
Remember, if you're looking to make something unique one, make sure it is within the rule and two make sure it's not going to turn every team against you. I'd rather have the support, goodwill and respect of every FIRST team at the competition than to have something cool and everybody hates our guts.

dlavery

16-01-2005, 11:36

My all-time favorite "addition" to the pit area was contributed during the 1998 Championship Competition in Orlando. One of the Florida teams (perhaps 233/Space Coast?) arrived with an eight-foot-tall Trojan Rabbit, right out of Monty Python! The entire thing fit over one of the team members who was riding a bicycle, and they wheeled it around the pits and food court areas all weekend long, threatening to storm the castle of any team that beat them in the competition. It was great! (and it worked wonderfully, all the way up to the point where the French team threw a cow at them; but that is another story... :) ) If anyone still has any pictures of that contraption, I would love to see them!

http://users.sdccu.net/chthulhu/models/rabbit/2002-04-15_01.jpg

-dave

Zippiot

16-01-2005, 11:46

At my regional team 254 (cheesy poofs) had one of the car stereos on wheels, and it was cool for a while but it soon soured...
Does anyone else have an idea for something cool to make for the competition?
At the nationals last year i saw a little bicycle, but it had 2 wheels in front and 1 in back, anyways it was powered by a small battery and i think one of the black motors (cim or somethign like that) and my team liked that. Would a squad of little contraptions like that be ok (at my regional we can store stuff outside to keep it out of the way)? If not a squad at least a few, maybe one that has a trailer with a bench on it to transport the driver and the other 2 kids along with the mentor to the feild. You guys seem to be against a powered cart to move the bot, but what about one to transport us around?

Mark Pettit

16-01-2005, 12:39

we can make a 4-pod craft that will be about 4 feet wide and 5 feet long, it can easily overcome a watterbotle in the way nonetheless a few wires.

Well, I sure would like to see your hovercraft (and perhaps take a ride if my big arse can fit on it) even if you can't get it through the pits!
We're going to 'Vegas and AZ and possibly Atlanta.

btw- do we really need to be so harsh on the grammar checking? I think that one simple reminder would have been plenty :( .

Zippiot

16-01-2005, 12:56

Thats another thing to consider, there is a alrge outside area at my regioal, we could offer people rides. I'm sure that would raise some eyebrows, last year we were unknown until we started winning (1st place silicon valley regionals, in yo face).

Zippiot

16-01-2005, 12:58

Hes right about the grammar thing, calm down my english teacher isn't that strict. I'm sure everyone knew what i was trying to say when i type thnx and such, calm down i know its unprofessionals but this is how people talk or type to eachother, it saves time and makes the reading faster.

elknise

16-01-2005, 16:41

Edit
There is an edit button on every post. If you are the owner of this post, you can edit it. When you post something, and then realize 2-3 minutes later that you forgot to say something, try to edit the post, rather than post another right after it. Thats the whole purpose of the edit button.

Why would you waste time thinking about a tug. Do you already have your competition robot done?

This would be really cool and I would love to see a hovercraft built to move your robot and/or team.

Remember that the gates on the field are only 48 inches ("The Arena" Section 3.2.1) wide and may vary from field to field.

Zippiot

16-01-2005, 16:57

i now realize what everyone meant by the doors, the gates to the feild. Duh...well we carry the bot onto the feild anyway so we would have no reason to fit through the gates. also we have about a month after the ship date to our competition (or so i have been told, i never really checked) plus we have so many hours at home to biuld it, so why not? we got the parts and the time why not have some fun!

Zippiot

18-01-2005, 12:41

for making a powered cart to tow the bot which motors do u recomend using? we have many drill motors, 5 of the black motors and all the door and globe motors you could imagine. it looks like the globe and door iopener motors are too slow to move the bot at a reasonable speed (at 70 rpm and an 8 inch wheels we got like 0.067 mph...) it will be difficult to attatch the old black motors because 3 of them have a keyed shaft and the other 2 have the star gear on the shaft. the drill motors will be very easy to attatch, and we can get about 3.5-5 feet per sec with the right gear ratio and the tranny provided, but are they powerful enough to tow a person, itself and the bot on a trailer?

Josh Fritsch

18-01-2005, 15:45

I would think that a any team could be building more important things than a cart...Any cart that could carry around a person would be much too large. Most regionals are held in a stadium or in a high school or something to that effect. The path from the pits to the field is not usually more than a standard size hallway. Teams will be coming back and forth and it will be very congested. There is no way that you could build a cart that big and not have some people start to become very annoyed with you very fast. As far as the green plates? Not only is it against the rules but against the spirit of FIRST. Are you intentionally trying to ruin the game for people who want to play? Yes it is legal to paint your robot what ever color you want, but intentionally trying to screw up other robots is a completely different story. And it was said earlier..that even if "your English teacher isn't strict"..thats no excuse for not hitting the spell check button before you hit submit. I could hardly understand one of your earlier posts. So..lets recap.

Blimp: NO, I highly doubt that FIRST would allow this
Mini Pit Bot: NO, the pits are too congested enough without another robot running around, plus the radio issues
Green Panels: YES, it is legal...but is it in the spirit of FIRST, gracious professionalism?
Powered Cart: YES, it is legal but an obnoxious or overly large cart is not necessary

Gloating about 1st place at silicon vally? come now. I dont think that is very appropriate. Yay you did good...want a cookie?

Zippiot

18-01-2005, 16:07

Double stuf oreos please (and yes there is only 1 f in double stuf on the oreos box). Most of the issues you adressed were already answered, and a cart big enough to carry a person can easily be smaller than the robot itself, all it is is a small frame with a chair on it...no big deal. If you had read some of the more recnt posts you would know that i already found out that the gren panels are illegal, same with the blimp and all that. The cart wont be any larger than the thing we used last year to push the bot (it was a push cart that was too ong for the bot and too thin, maing it very difficult to place the bot on and steer).
The reason i gloat about our win at silicon valley regionals is that our team was all rookies (except for 1 kid) and we beat the team in second by the sloghtest margin. Also we didnt think that our bot was half-decent, nonetheless able to win (but of course we had good partners, our bot was only capable of getting on the pole, and we only had 1 try to do it). Once again the reason i gloat is because i am proud, i did not rub it in your face did i? All i did was put it in my signature, so quit whining and be proud of how well your team did. And i had better get my cookie (who even says good for you would you like a cookie? isn't that more obnoxious than what i did?)

Roland

18-01-2005, 16:26

http://www.$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#.com/files/emot-eng101.gif Learn to spell or get out.

Josh Fritsch

18-01-2005, 16:28

First off, I was not commenting about the mention to your win in your signature I put my accomplishments in my signature also...but quote from previous post "last year we were unknown until we started winning (1st place silicon valley regionals, in yo face)." Second, if you can make a cart that can carry a person and a robot and still be maneuverable enough to get through the doors and walkways, go for it, I never told you that you couldn't. Anyway I'm sorry for offending you in anyway I truly didn't mean too. I hope you do everything you set out to do this season and I wish you the best of luck. I look forward to seeing your cart at a competition.

Cory

18-01-2005, 16:42

Everyone here needs to chill out and get back on topic or this thread will be closed.

Zippiot

18-01-2005, 16:46

Fine you all win I'll use your spell check, but you must acknowledge that the point of these forums is to ask questions and receive answers. It must have taken less than 3 second out of your life to read my spelling errors and yet everyone seems to be a little irked by it. Learn to spell or get out? How does that help? I asked simple yes its legal or no don't do it questions and everyone is chewing me out. How many posts have you all wasted yelling at me? at least send a private message instead of wasting the time of the people who are trying to read for the purpose of helping me.

Cory you are my hero i was typing this when you posted so i didnt get a chance to read it thank you for helping the blind back to the road.

Zippiot

18-01-2005, 16:53

Does anyone know how to attach the black motors from about 3 or 4 years ago? they have a spur gear shaft and i can't find anything in our lab that would let us attach it to a gear. would 4 black motors be more powerful than 2 drill motors?

And by the way you are all yelling at me for spelling? How dumb is that I'm not swearing or anything its just a letter or so wrong grow up. You would yell at someone who had a walking disability if they were in your way? And yes it is that same thing, you are yelling at a little kid because he cant spell properly and would rather post his reply than waste time turning off his pop ups and virus blockers just so you cant save a few seconds of your life.

Cory

18-01-2005, 17:02