View Full Version : School Shop Policy
Ryan Morin
27-01-2005, 14:36
Ok. Here is an issue that that has upset me a little the past few weeks. My school has a policy due to insurance reasons that students can't operate a stationary or floor model type machines i.e. drill presses, band saw, etc., with out a certified instructor (someone who is certified to teach student how to use machines in a shop) in the room. Here's the problem WE DON'T HAVE A CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR ON OUR TEAM!:( :mad: So that means that none of the students can use the stationary machine at anytime. But don't get me wrong I understand the reasoning behind this and that is so they don't get the blame if someone gets hurt. But my point is that I can't use that floor model of a machine but I can use the bench model of it. Now tell me if I'm wrong but I can get hurt the same ways if it's a floor or bench model. Plus I can get hurt one extra way with the bench model in that if I'm carrying it and it slips it can fall on my foot or something. But what I hate the most is that my dad (a certified machinist but not instructor so he doesn't count) gets stuck doing the simplest to the hardest of jobs on the Bridgeport or lathe all day long. Instead of one of the students doing the easy jobs while he does the hard one or teaches us how to use the machines. So here is my question to you, what is your school's policy on student and using machines?
Thanks Ryan
Since MOE isn't from just one school we work on DuPont sites. To be able to use any machines or tools on site the student must go through training from our MOE U program so every student can operate each tool and machine safely and properly.
Sscamatt
27-01-2005, 14:50
I think we have the same policy at our school. But they are lenient and let us slide as long as there is an adult in the room.
Our team policy is that the students can't work the table saw or compound mitre saw. This is not a school policy but ours. Last year we had 2 minor accidents to the mentors using them. I understand your frustration as we have mills etc that even the mentors cannot touch because they are not certified (we are certifiable though :D ). We live with what we have and do the best. remember that the schools have people that know insurance and their policies. They do what they do not to hinder us but to protect the system. If there was an accident and if they didn't follow the proper procedures, there may be no more FIRST in your school.
Cheer up, Watch what your dad does, learn from him and build a GREAT robot (just not as good as mine).
Hey, at least you guys have a shop.
Back home in CA, schools with shops are the exception, not the rule.
In the last 15-20 years they've decided that a hands on, practical approach to learning is not as important as book learning, and have been phasing out shops ever since.
Alex1072
27-01-2005, 15:33
Our shop consists of a bench top drill press, grinder, and miter saw. This year a parent wanted to donate a band saw, but our school won't let us get one because of safety reasons. Frustrating? Yes. But I can see the justification. We don't have a shop and our team advisor teachers are not trained to teach shop. Although they do have some experiance with shops. As has been mentioned, an accident could disband the whole team.
Daniel Brim
27-01-2005, 15:40
Hey, at least you guys have a shop.
Back home in CA, schools with shops are the exception, not the rule.
In the last 15-20 years they've decided that a hands on, practical approach to learning is not as important as book learning, and have been phasing out shops ever since.
We're very lucky in this respact. Our school too is phasing out hands-on electives (even though those probably prepare you better for the real world). We are using our school's "Construction Technology" classroom (one of the only hands-on classes at school). We can use SOME tools that are in that class, but not all (for example we can't use thier table saw). We do have vertical & horizontal bandsaws, a drill press, a grinder, a cut-off saw, and a mill that we can use, along with assorted hand tools. The general policy is that as long as a mentor is present, you can use the tool, and since we have an abundance of mentors this year, the policy works fine.
-Daniel
We just need an adult present in the wood shop or machine shop to use the machines...although, each student had to attend a general team meeting and get a 15 minute lecture, aka "machines will cut off fingers, blah, blah, tie hair back, blah, blah" Mostly common knowledge.
Bcahn836
27-01-2005, 15:57
Our school's policy is the same, you must be certified to use the machine or have the supervision of a certified adult or mentor. All of the students that take the engineering course where the robotics team is ran out of are all certified and all those who take intro to engineering at the home school are certified. the other students must go through a short class about machine use and safety which last about 2 meetings. But the one of the shop teachers must be present in order to use any of the shop machinery.
wafflesk
27-01-2005, 16:41
All schools with machine shops are very veyr lucky. Our team has a biology lab to work in. Our school being a catholic doesnt have the money to get a machine shop. UT stinks working in a little bio lab and a back closet instead of a machine shop like some teams but we get by. We have a band saw and drill press that we are allwoed to use(as long as we have goggles on!) and that helps a lot. Still ive always dreamt of havign a nice machine shop to work in,
Logan Byers
27-01-2005, 16:49
We just need an adult present in the wood shop or machine shop to use the machines...although, each student had to attend a general team meeting and get a 15 minute lecture, aka "machines will cut off fingers, blah, blah, tie hair back, blah, blah" Mostly common knowledge.
Our rules our almost exactly alike. We also have to go through the lectures too. For those without shops, I sincerely feel sorry for you. But even though there are rules against it, we still work without supervision some times. It is mostly CNC work, but we have used the shop without supervision most of the time. What they don't know won't hurt them I guess (or at least until they find out!) :ahh: For those without shops, I sincerely feel sorry for you. :(
CyberWolf_22
27-01-2005, 17:17
Our mentor is a certified shop instructor but our school does not have a shop so we have a robotics laboratory which is just a pretty big class room that we have had wired for 220V and have put our tools in. I think at one time it was some kind of computer lab. Also are instructor always has to be in the room for us to use the tools. We also have a certification program that goes strait through our head mentor if he has shown you how to use the tools and he trusts you to use them properly you are allowed if he does not trust you, you can't use the tools. I think this is just a team policy not a district one since we do not have a "Shop".
Our school's policy is as follows:
Students can use the machines as long as they have taken a shop class recently and theres and adult present.
Adults/mentors can use the machines with no problem as far as I can tell. All of our mentors are trained in their use so it doesn't really matter.
It also helps that the shop instructor is quite interested in our projects.
I'm for safety but I see this as a pain, but also for your protection. At our school we have a policy that students can use the machines, but they have to first pass a safety exam on that machine and a shop safety exam. This "certifies" them on that piece of equipment. This allows the student on that machine while a instructor or adult is in that room. I mean how can one or two instructors stand over the shoulder of 12-15 students running machines
Kyle Love
27-01-2005, 20:27
As far as I know, we have no rules that say students can operate machines or that students have to have certain classes to operate machines. We do try to teach people how to use the machines the first few times to make sure no "accidents" happen. Proudly, we have never had an injury, that required real medical attention.
When I had "shop" back in High School they emphazied safety to the fullest extreme. I'm glad they did, I still have a full set of 7 fingers........
our school is very lucky, we have a woodshop as well as a machine shop, though our school requires there be an adult in the room, and this year, we were lucky enough to get all the mech team "certified" so they know what everthing is and how to operate it. :eek: yeah, mech team loose in the room? :eek
Team 772
Mohsin
We got some INCENTIVE do you?
phrontist
27-01-2005, 21:35
We have to have a non-student around. Doesn't matter who. Anyone. We usually just grab someone old-looking until they wander off, then grab another. Lather, rinse, repeat. All these complex saftey rules are a bit melodramatic. As long as you have some common sense, and you think before you act, you'll be find. Honestly, how bloody hard is it to operate a mill without hurting yourself? It's a rapidly spinning sharp peice of metal, and as long as your mindful of this very complex situation before you, I think you'll make it out alive.
We received our mill very recently, and no one knew how to use it, mentors included. But it's really just like an Etch-A-Sketch, but with metal and danger. A few trips to the library later (early seventies milling textbooks seem to be written by the most bitter and unpleasent people ever) and we're having a blast covered in (cutting) oil, like baby seals around the Exxon Valdez. Bada bing baby!
Our students all must go threw a shop safety training after school to be on the team. The only power tools we have are a drill press, cordless drills and a dremel. Our robot is built by hand with hand tools. Its hard to cut you fingers off with a hand hack saw. It's very easy to do with a chop saw.
phrontist
27-01-2005, 22:36
Our students all must go threw a shop safety training after school to be on the team. The only power tools we have are a drill press, cordless drills and a dremel. Our robot is built by hand with hand tools. Its hard to cut you fingers off with a hand hack saw. It's very easy to do with a chop saw.
Risk of debilitating injury is the spice of life!
Our students all must go threw a shop safety training after school to be on the team. The only power tools we have are a drill press, cordless drills and a dremel. Our robot is built by hand with hand tools. Its hard to cut you fingers off with a hand hack saw. It's very easy to do with a chop saw.
We have something similar, though without the dremel. We also have a rule: Safety glasses are a must around power equipment. (Definition of "around equipment": at the same table.) We work in an old machine shop, so there are some tools like threaders, but we can't use them (even if they were in operating condition).
Isn't it crazy that every student has the wisdom to see that we need our shops, BUT they are being cut out at every turn. SCHOOL ADMINISTRATORS, CAN YOU HEAR THIS???
I have been an Industrial Arts/Technology teacher here in NJ for 27 years, and have watched shop after shop close down, and for no good reason. We are a relatively young team (3rd year), and got involved because, among other things, saw it as a way to emphasize the importance of our shop programs (while we still had a few left!).
All of you students, mentors, and advisors need to become proponents for shop programs in your communities. Attend a board of Ed. meeting in your town, and let them know how you feel. It's way more important than doing it here, where you are essentially "preaching to the choir".
Best of Luck this year from Team 1228- A-MERCK-IN-Indians
Alienvin
27-01-2005, 23:14
Well Ryan,
I would investiage in finding a Technology Education teacher to throw in sometime to help his school team out. I'm a Tech Teacher, but I am also a co-team leader to my team, but I do understand your problem. The bigger machines can give you more than a small cut.
Leis
Alienvin
27-01-2005, 23:18
TOTALLY AGREE....
Technology Teacher here as well. On my hand, I'm lucky we still have 4 functioning shops along with a Photography lab. I saw First Robotics as a chance to show people why our field is so important. How things are handled with our specific discipline is wrong and will have an effect for years to come. My name is Vincent J. Leis - Membership Secretary of the Nassau Technology Educators Association on Long Island as well as Co-Team leader of Rookie Team 1546...... CHAOS INC.
Nice talking
Ianworld
28-01-2005, 00:37
My school has a policy of requiring a teacher in our lab to just be in the lab. So we can't even touch a screwdriver if our teacher isn't in the room. Now in theory I think this is a good policy, but the obvious caveat is that if we can't find a teacher to be in the lab we can't work at all. We have a teacher but, he's unreliable and often busy. Other teachers can help out sometimes when he can't. I just think its kinda sad that there are kids that really, really want to work on their robot and make it as good as it can be but aren't given the opportunity because of a lack of interest from teachers. Ah well its the way it goes.
Jeffrafa
28-01-2005, 02:07
Isn't it crazy that every student has the wisdom to see that we need our shops, BUT they are being cut out at every turn. SCHOOL ADMINISTRATORS, CAN YOU HEAR THIS???
I have been an Industrial Arts/Technology teacher here in NJ for 27 years, and have watched shop after shop close down, and for no good reason. We are a relatively young team (3rd year), and got involved because, among other things, saw it as a way to emphasize the importance of our shop programs (while we still had a few left!).
All of you students, mentors, and advisors need to become proponents for shop programs in your communities. Attend a board of Ed. meeting in your town, and let them know how you feel. It's way more important than doing it here, where you are essentially "preaching to the choir".
Best of Luck this year from Team 1228- A-MERCK-IN-Indians
I completely agree - I'd do almost anything to go to a school with a shop.
The most hands-on our school gets is using a computer mouse on a virus infested dell. Our district spends millions (yes, millions) on computers every other year and most of them aren't even usable. We have class sets of 30 laptops at our school that are only used twice a year for CIM testing. At least 40% of the computers avalible in the library have so much spyware on them that you can't even use word or surf the net.
The worst part is there's no other option - last summer i TRIED to switch districts just so i could go to a school with wood shops, metal shops, welding classes, and actual hands-on courses but because of district policy (and not wanting to release the state money granted to them for me attending) they wouldn't let me go. The only way is if i pay the state's $5000+ to switch, OR move to the other district (which I still might do)
Our team is lucky enough to have multiple mentors from the local Xerox, so we are able to meet there and our mentors are able to use the shop tools in the model shop to make parts we need.
Anyways, thats our situation
in our district you have to have a teacher sponsor(last year math teacheR) this year it is the tech teacher so we actualy get to use the shop(we used a classroom last year...)
ther has to be an adult ther for us too, but there is around 3 of us that they trust enough to use the large tools alone. We showed ourselves last year, thus we are trusted :D
we are a little stuck with shops. nearly all of the parts are manufactured by a 2/3 students who have dads who are buliders / engineers etc. We have nothing in college, except a few bits and bobs of hte physics department (one of our mentors is a physics teacher) and there is not much more than basic hand tools and a small pillar drill. As such, everyone who makes things at home is used to the machinery and has used it before a lot... so we havn't had any accidents as far as i remember ... The college is very strict on insurance, and i wasn't even allowed to use my battery drill once in college, because i hadn't signed some stuff saying if i drill my hand , its my fault...
Josh Fritsch
28-01-2005, 14:30
Our team is lucky to have a school with a machine shop, and after reading this thread I think that we have probably one of the more lenient approaches to allowing students to use the machines. We only have to have a school representative there to accompany us, i.e a teacher. Its not bad because our leader happens to be a teacher at the school so it really hasn't been a big problem. However our team has a rule that any student must be accompanied by an adult mentor when in the machine shop.
Ben Piecuch
28-01-2005, 17:07
I'll follow up on Ryan's complaint, as I'm one of the mentors on the team. Since the inception of the team, a shop teacher was the main driving force behind everything, from leading the team through preseason, to designing, building, and competing with the robot. He taught the students how to safely use the machines, and they took a lot of pride in having a 100% student built robot.
Since then, the shop teacher has retired, and we have not been able to find a replacement. We are a small team (<5 mentors, <10 students) and are having a difficult time balancing our time together as a group. The adults are forced to do a majority of the work, and students are only allowed to stand by and watch. While this is a great opportunity to teach the students, it's not the best use of our resources, especially during build season. We finally found a certified teacher to help us out, but he can only donate a day or two of his time, total. While it's hardly a blip in our schedule, we'll certainly welcome him with open arms.
I will say this... Ryan has always wanted to "build the robot." He wasn't all that interested in the brainstorming, prototyping, or even designing many of the parts. This year, he's been forced to sit by our sides and watch a bit of what the mentors do, in regards to designing the mechanisms. I think Ryan is getting more of an education than he expected, as he's become more involved in the other aspects of the team. As some old quote goes, "One closed doors leads you to an open one." Maybe this will spark him to do a little more than just "build the robot." Great thread Ryan, see you this weekend.
Bengineer
Team 228
gosling2003
28-01-2005, 17:57
You might call my school a "rich" school. We have a machine shop, a wood shop and two auto shops. We are allowed to work in all four of them but we mostly are in the wood shop because that is where the band saws are.
Anyways, our head robotics coach is also a wood shop teacher, so he trusts us with all the equipment with the power on. :D
I think our school has some policy similar, but its never been brought up. People can basically use what they want, and I figure they could get themselves into trouble, but most people ask if they dont know how to use something. We have an ageing machine shop, with drill presses, grinders, power hacksaw, lathe, bandsaws (almunim, wood, lexan), cutting wheels, new cutoff saw, pneuamtic ratchets, ect. and a full wood shop. Were pretty lucky, but we only have a tabletop miling mahcine, no acess to a bridgeport or a real cnc unit.
spyhunterk19
30-01-2005, 00:08
It seems that SPAM is very lucky. We have an entire host of machines in our work area, and a great machinist to help us out.
Our school's policy is as follows:
Students can use the machines as long as they have taken a shop class recently and theres and adult present.
Adults/mentors can use the machines with no problem as far as I can tell. All of our mentors are trained in their use so it doesn't really matter.
It also helps that the shop instructor is quite interested in our projects.
The only problem with our team though is that I am the only kid that has taken any shop classes at our school. Also, I am the Shop teachers TA for wood shop and he has told us that if we need to have a student get trained on an extra machine, he can show me how to use it and then someone besides a mentor can make parts for our robot. I think it is funny though that Kris and I have used way more tools than our school will allow us to use.
we dont use the shop at the school, we go to a shop about 30 minutes away form the school. Pretty much all the tools that are there is all we need (Mill, drill press, chop saw etc.) The machine shop at the school is way too cramped to be used. As far as the policy on tools, on the mill and chop saw we have to have supervision of one of our mentors, but on the drill press, band saw, and other machinery as long as we know how to use it properly we dont need much supervision.
IndianChieftain
02-02-2005, 10:32
We are lucky to have a shop that's very well equipped, but the policy is the same. Unless you are trained you can't operate any of the machines in the shop. But we start our season to wards the end of September and we take the time to train every single person to have a specialty machine and train them on all the machines in the shop. We have a lot of machines in our shop (doubles of almost everything) so it takes a while to train our fabrication team ( which is about 25 people). the best thing to do is probably have everyone trained before the season starts.
That my 2 cents worth anyways.
From 487.
Our school no longer has a shop of any kind.
No storage space for the robot.
It still has that rule.
We are building the robot in my living room & dining room.
Count your blessings. :)
We don't have anything but a woodshop at school, it has all the woodworking tools you'd need except a lathe. Since we are a rookie team we actually have been working out at our teachers personal residence in his shop. We are allowed to use any and all tools, including a metal chop saw, bandsaws, drill presses, angle grinders and other various hand tools such as his cordless drills and such. It's a good setup but we don't have any welding or CNC equipment. We have a few students with certifications and tools including a plasma cutter and a mig welder.
Not to bad for a rookie team i guess.
Ben
im not sure what the acually policy is at our school, and by that i mean the one we work at (i come from a diffrent one and the only places we have tools is ag classes) but we dont have any thing fun like lathes or mills, so me and my dad get stuck doing virtually all the machining at my house cause my dad is a machinist, and we have a small machine shop in my garage.
Andrew Y.
06-03-2005, 22:07
yes, our team requires a "certified adult (over 21)" to be in the room
All of the students on the Build team are Georgia Tech certified so we are all good to go, but a teacher is always there just to supervise. not to bad of a problem for us.
Safety FIRST everything else Second
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