Pneumatics Size confusion

[fleadomofbass]

What is the max length you can get from first of a pneumatic piston

[Josh Hambright]

check http://www.bimba.com/techctr/first_free_frm.htm see exactly.

but i believe
for 3/4 Bore the max stroke is 10 inchs
and for 1 1/2" and 2" the max stroke length is 24"

[dlavery]

See page 19 of the Pneumatics Manual.

[Mark Pettit]

for 3/4 Bore the max stroke is 10 inchs
and for 1 1/2" and 2" the max stroke length is 24"

'1-1/2" bore only goes to 11" stroke.

The order form is on the last page of the Pneumatics Manual.
It's at: http://www2.usfirst.org/2005comp/Manuals/2005PneumaticsManual.pdf

[Josh Hambright]

i was going off the bimba website, which lists upto a 24" stroke length for the 1 1/2" bore size. The last page of the manual says to check the website for available stroke lengths for each bore size.

[ewankoff]

are there any limitations on the size of the pistons?

[ewankoff]

is a 1 and 1/16 inch bore and 24inch stroke piston allowd?

[Josh Hambright]

You have a choice of 3/4" bore, 1 1/2" bore and 2" bore. You can order the amount of stroke you require
Page #7 of the pneumatics manual.

See above for the available stroke lengths in each bore.

[Projectchon]

for this year,can we use pistons out side of the kit?

[dez250]

Please see page 19 of the Pneumatics Manual for all the cylinders and other pneumatic components (other then fitting and tubing) you can use on your 2005 FRC competition robot. <R91> also allows the TI Pressure Transducer and single action solenoid from the 2004 FRC KOP as legal for use this year. But other then those cylinders ["pistons"] on the pneumatics order form for this year, no you can not use cylinders from out side of the 2005 FRC Kit Of Parts.

[Jeffrafa]

Just a note, the order form on page 19 of the pneumatics manual does not list 24" for a stroke length for the 1-1/2" bore, but it also says "Please check the Bimba web site for available strokes in each bore size". Page 7 of the pneumatics manual also says "You can order the amount of stroke you require.", implying you can get whatever stroke you need (of course assuming its avalible). As said by oneangrydwarf the bimba site does list 24" stroke cylinders in 1-1/2" bore, which means you can get it.

Also, rule <R91> says you may use last year's kit pneumatic cylinders and solenoid valves - last year our team recieved two 24" stroke 1-1/2" bore cylinders as part of our 3 free cylinders, meaning we can use these because the rule says any cylinder avalible in the kit last year is also legal this year.

[Phil Paspalas]

:eek:
I've searched this site and read the rules and pneumatics manual over and over again. Can anyone answer this question once and for all?

Can a team use a piston other than the ones offered for free by Bimba? For instance: Bimba make a 1 1/16" dia. piston with a 24" stroke. Is this allowable? I understand that Bimba will only give away the ones listed on their site (3/4", 1 1/2", 2") but if we are purchasing pistons, what range of diameter are we limited to?

Thanks.

[Steve W]

This is my final answer - 3/4", 1 1/2" and 2".

[dez250]

This question has been answered many times and i will answer it again.

You have the choice from three (3) different bore sizes [piston diameters] to choose from and use this year on your 2005 FRC competition Robot. These three bore sizes are 3/4", 1-1/2" and 2".


CUSTOM BIMBA CYLINDERS You will again be able to order custom cylinders for your robot again this year. You have a choice of 3/4” bore (diameter), 1-1/2” bore and 2” bore. You can order the amount of stroke you require.


You can find the strokes available for these three bores on page 19 of the 2005 FRC Pneumatics Manual (http://www2.usfirst.org/2005comp/Manuals/2005PneumaticsManual.pdf)

[Phil Paspalas]

:confused:
In the spirit of gracious professionalism, Thanks!
This is my final answer - 3/4", 1 1/2" and 2".

[Phil Paspalas]

:o
Thank you. It was not entirely clear that teams were limited to those piston dia. only. We had ordered a 1 1/16" X 24" piston that I was able to cancel. I apologize for making rookie mistakes.


This question has been answered many times and i will answer it again.

You have the choice from three (3) different bore sizes [piston diameters] to choose from and use this year on your 2005 FRC competition Robot. These three bore sizes are 3/4", 1-1/2" and 2".



You can find the strokes available for these three bores on page 19 of the 2005 FRC Pneumatics Manual (http://www2.usfirst.org/2005comp/Manuals/2005PneumaticsManual.pdf)

[Don Wright]

I think the problem is that the manual seems to conflict itself a little.

The robot material flow chart says:

A purchased cylinder or rotary actuator identical to those available on the Custom Cylinder Order Form?

But, from the order form:

Please check the Bimba web site for available strokes in each bore size

To me, that means, other than the sizes listed here which you can get for free just by filling out this form, check the web site for available strokes. So, Bimba would just have to make and stock a larger number of cylinders in these sizes instead of stocking all their sizes...

And really, it's the bore size that is the deciding factor. As long as it's 3/4", 1 1/2", or 2" and off the shelf from Bimba, it should be OK...

Not trying to "get away" with anything, just think a small clarification could be helpful...

[Gary Bonner]

I think the problem is that the manual seems to conflict itself a little.

...

Not trying to "get away" with anything, just think a small clarification could be helpful...

For a definitive answer, I suggest you post your question to FIRST:

http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/2005/qa.htm

[Don Wright]

It's been asked several times already, all unanswered... Waiting for the reply.

I was just trying to calm this thread down a little by mentioning that there might be a little confusion from the way it's written, that's all.

[Jeffrafa]

Also <R38> of section 5.3.4.2 says:

"Specific items allowed include:
• Additional HITEC HS-322S servos
• Additional Victor 884 Speed Controllers and Spike Relays, as needed.
• Additional solenoid valves, air cylinders, and connecting fittings"

stating you are allowed additional cylinders, and not even hinting towards any sort of restriction that may be applied to such items. I know the flowchart and pneumatics manual say different, but it is another conflicting rule.

[NeedMoreEngines]

The maximum length for a 1.5 inch diameter piston is 11 inches. HOWEVER, we have found a glitch. FIRST says that you can use pistons from last year, which would include a 1.5 inch piston that is greater than 11 inches. But this year, they tell us that we can only select pistons from a given order form. Our moderator is looking into this and has questioned FIRST about what we can use.

[Josh Hambright]

The maximum length for a 1.5 inch diameter piston is 11 inches. HOWEVER, we have found a glitch. FIRST says that you can use pistons from last year, which would include a 1.5 inch piston that is greater than 11 inches. But this year, they tell us that we can only select pistons from a given order form. Our moderator is looking into this and has questioned FIRST about what we can use.


The maximum stroke length of a 1.5" bore piston is 24". The order form is not complete and states that for all available sizes to check the bimba website, when you goto the website it states that you can purchase upto 24" stroke length for 1.5" and 2".

[Madison]

Has anyone successfully ordered and received a 1.5" bore, 24" stroke piston? I am inclined to believe that the website order form was poorly designed and only that listed in the manual is available to us.

[Nitroxextreme]

we have successfully ordered and received a 1 1/2 bore 24" cyclinder however the rest of our order was forgoten, but that is another story all together

[Mark McLeod]

The maximum stroke length of a 1.5" bore piston is 24". The order form is not complete and states that for all available sizes to check the bimba website, when you goto the website it states that you can purchase upto 24" stroke length for 1.5" and 2".The Q&A says the order form takes precedence not the Bimba site, so no 1.5" bore 24" stroke:( :

ID:1335 Section:5.3.10 Status:Answered Date Answered:1/25/2005
Q:What is the maximum stroke that can be used for an 1 1/2" dia cylinder? The FIRST Free Pneumatic Components Order Form at the end of the Pneumatics Manual shows 11", while the Bimba web site page entitled Free Pneumatic Components Order For (24") (I was too long winded)
A:The pneumatics manual takes precedence.

ID:1336 Section:5.3.10 Status:Answered Date Answered:1/25/2005
Q:Please confirm if only the "standard" strokes listed can be used, or can cylinders that are paid for be at other strokes.
A:The ones that are listed.

[Josh Hambright]

That is really confusing, considering the order form says "check the website for all available sizes" or somethin along those lines.

[Nitroxextreme]

I know there is another tread that is ongoing about this problem, but it is one that needs to be addressed.

The facts are:
The pneumatics manual says that the max. stroke for 1 1/2 bore is 11 in
It also says in BIG PRINT "Please check the Bimba web site for available strokes in each bore size"
The Website has the max. stroke for 1 1/2 bore as 24 in

A Q & A post has been answered that says the pneumatics manual takes precedence
Would this mean that the manual saying the website has the updated sizes is not true?

Would this also mean that my team as well as many others, i assume, would have to "throw out" perfectly good pneumatic cylinders and pay extra money for the 2 in bore, greater than 11 in ,stroke pneumatic?

I believe that the pneumatics manual made it very clear that the sizes were updated on the bimba website and my team acted as such by ordering pneumatics from the custom cylinder order form

I also believe that many other teams understood the manual in the same way.

Why is this problem just now surfacing and why is this a discrepancy, the manual says check the website?

:confused:

[Dad1279]

The Q&A says the order form takes precedence not the Bimba site, so no 1.5" bore 24" stroke:( :
........

However, <R91> states: " You may use a previous year's Kit pneumatic cylinders and solenoid valves in addition to those items in the 2005 Kit, but you must account for their costs as explained in the Cost Limits and Accounting section. "

In 2004, a 1-1/2" x 24" cylinder was legal, and was listed on the fax bimba order form.

My team spent the day designing around smaller cylinders, so at this point it doesn't matter, but we will need to spend money on new cylinders tomorrow when we had 1-1/2" x 24" cylinders left over from last year.

[Steve W]

Ask the question again on the Q&A. Be very direct with your question and ask for the official ruling.

[Jeffrafa]

We are currently planning on using a 1-1/2" bore 24" stroke cylinder. Whether or not they rule it OK to order this year ours was left over as an extra from our 3 free last year. The rules specifically say last year's are still fine to use and therefore its alright, I see no reason they would disallow them this year.

Its always good to ask though.

[Andrew Dahl]

any updates on this - we are in the same boat and want to use the 1.5 24" piston

[Mark McLeod]

In 2004, a 1-1/2" x 24" cylinder was legal, and was listed on the fax bimba order form.I wouldn't bet on that interpretation. I think FIRST's response would have to be "anything from prior year's that complies with this year's rules and Use Flowchart," e.g., solenoids, storage tanks, permitted cylinder sizes listed in the pneumatics manual.

Is it an Air Cylinder ordered from the Custom Cylinder Order Form?

Is it a purchased fitting or valve rated for 125psi
Or
A purchased cylinder or rotary actuator identical to those available on the Custom Cylinder Order Form?

Previous year’s pneumatic components
BUT ONLY
The cylinders and solenoid valves.

Ask the question again on the Q&A. Be very direct with your question and ask for the official ruling.I thought the answer was very specific. It has to be listed in the pneumatics manual for it to be legal, or explicitly called out like the TI pressure switch. A couple of similar questions have been posted as follow-ups by people in this thread, but not answered yet.

[Mr. Van]

Ok, now that I look at things, it seems a bit unfair to have the rule <R91> clearly allow previous years cylinders and then in week three have a Q & A answer (1334) that seems to contradict this rule.

Fortunately, we are not planning on using a 1.5" bore 24" throw cylinder, but woe to those teams that are just finding out about this rule change.

I suppose this means that the cylinders that were provided in kits from previous years (like the SMC 1" bore 5" throw from 2000) are not allowed?

Did we get an official statement regarding the 0.5" bore cylinders from previous years?

Perhaps we will hear the final rule in update 7?

-Mr. Van
Coach, 599

[BillCloyes]

Not to add to the confusion but...

We printed our 2005 pneumatics manual off the First Pneumatics website within the first week after kickoff (and yes it was labeled 2005...).

It's order form included the 12" and 24" stroke (1.5" bore) pneumatics and so we designed our robot accordingly.

We were all prepared to order when I started seeing people asking questions on the Q&A board, so I download a "new copy" ...and those sizes were gone.

Soo we re-designed...and then go to place the order via the Bimba website (per the manual's instructions) and find that those sizes are once again available to FIRST teams to order as their free Bimba cylinders... so we went back to our original design (using the 1.5"-ers (it also happened to be cheaper)) and placed the order. The Bimba web tracking shows that they shipped 01/28/2005 (hoping we get them in the next few days).

At the time of writing this ,the only response that FIRST has given is that we should refer to the manual for clarification... and as I've read the manual and the order form and find that it throws things to the website (where all the ordering must be done anyhow...).
...and guessing by the view count on this thread, I'm not the only one who thinks there is some contradiction ("confusing statements", at best) within and between the Q&A board, the pneumatics manual, the order forms, and the order-placing-website.

From a slightly different angle... Being a team on a budget (a budget of actual funds available, not just as what we can put the robot), if it turns out that we are not allowed to use cylinders that we received through the "FIRST/Bimba free cylinder program", I would expect that we be allowed to exchange them for free legal sized cylinders and that FIRST pickup the tab for [overnight] shipping for causing the confusion.

This may seem like a tad bit much, but isn't the reasoning behind being limited to these certain sizes is to help "equal the field" by making all teams only use sizes that are available for free. If teams can't use the "free ones", isn't this defeating the purpose?

oh well...just my $.02

[Nitroxextreme]

we are one of those teams that is in this problematic situation

if we cant use the 24 in 1 1/2 bore our design will be able to be adapted, but a big incovenience is our time and added weight that will have to be taken off from somewhere else, as well as the extra money for the cylinders and overnight shipping coming our of our budget (the overnight will be like 30-50 of what it actually costs for the cylinders)

And as a response to all those who wanted a very detailed question asked on Q & A i did post 1 (it was to long so it continued through 3) check and see if it covers everything ID 1423-1425 (maybe off by one or 2).

[Daniel Brim]

I think we should all be watching question 1385 in the next few days, it looks like it will be able to be answered the most effectively (although it was posted 4 days ago).

And yes, we were planning on using the 1.5" bore 24" stroke cylinder, and at this point in the season, not being able to use this would seriously hinder our capability to finish the robot on time.

-Daniel

[Andy Baker]

(I am sending this note to FIRST before posting here)

Andy B.

[Don Wright]

FYI: the 1.5" bore, 24" stroke cylinder is legal since it is available on the web page.

From FIRST Q&A directly:


ID: 1335 Section: 5.3.10 Status: Answered Date Answered: 2/3/2005
Q: What is the maximum stroke that can be used for an 1 1/2" dia cylinder? The FIRST Free Pneumatic Components Order Form at the end of the Pneumatics Manual shows 11", while the Bimba web site page entitled Free Pneumatic Components Order For
A: CORRECTED ANSWER 2/3/2005 AT 1330. CORRECTED ANSWER The manual is correct. It tells you to go to the Bimba site for all of the available sizes. Old Answer The pneumatics manual takes precedence.
ID: 1385 Section: 5.3.10 Status: Answered Date Answered: 2/3/2005
Q: Strokes 12" & 24" are available for 1 1/2" bore from Bimba / First special order section but not listed in the Pneumatic Manual Order sample (pg. 19). Please definitively clarify if 12" & 24" are allowed.
A: WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE OBVIOUS CONFUSION WE HAVE INFLICTED UPON TEAMS, PARTICULARLY BY OUR ANSWER TO #1335. We were correct in our answer (the manual takes precedence) as it points you to the Bimba site, but we were far from clear. We will clarify the answer to #1335. As the Pneumatics Manual states very clearly on P19... Please check the Bimba web site for available strokes in each bore size. These are the cylinders you can use.

[Daniel Brim]

Thanks for that. That takes a huge load off of my mind (and other teams as well).

[BillCloyes]

...breathes sigh of relief... and then goes to open the box of bimba freebies mentioned earlier (one 1.5 x 24 and two 1.5 x 12)...

[reilly]

Here is my question: what is the stoke and bore of the one piston that is given [came in the kit], we would like to put it to use and need to know the specs, I donnot see it on pg. 7 cylinders part of the pneumatics manual.

[BoyWithCape195]

12 inch stroke 1 inch bore (I Think)

[BillCloyes]

Here is my question: what is the stoke and bore of the one piston that is given [came in the kit], we would like to put it to use and need to know the specs, I donnot see it on pg. 7 cylinders part of the pneumatics manual.


"... Cylinder 1.5” bore x 8” stroke; rear pivot mt. 1.5DPSR8.00 ..."

Page 4 (of 7) on the KoP checklist (http://www2.usfirst.org/2005comp/Manuals/Kit_of_Parts.pdf) (9th item from top of page)

-Bill