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Shenders
04-03-2002, 04:41 AM
It's interesting to note after several years with the Bionic Bulldogs that many people have not caught on to some of our team's best kept secrets. I decided I would share a few of them with all of you in hopes that they might somehow benefit your teams. Here goes...

1. Team 60 has ZERO engineers!
That's right... many people have commented that our robot must be totally engineer built, and this always makes me laugh. Our main "builders" are really two machinists - Glenn and George. Neither has a degree, but both have hearts of gold for kids and truly want to inspire them in the field of technology. Our "other" adults are a Sheriff Deputy and a P.E. teacher (me), neither of which has much background in either science or technology. Because of this, student involvement is a PRIORITY when it comes to designing and building our robots.

2. Kingman has numerous drive teams.
Several comments have been posted about the lack of skill of our drivers, this year and in the past, and they are absolutely right! Know why? Because our team lets EVERY student who wants a place on the drive team be involved. Two seperate drive teams competed in San Jose, and two others will operate the robot in LA. All four teams, 10 students in all, will take turns operating the robot at Nationals this year. So... while many may see this as a weakness and take advantage of notable driver flaws, we know that it is exactly this that makes our team strong... not in ratings in competitions perhaps, but in life itself. It's proof to our team members that winning is NOT our #1 goal, but that comming away winners for having the experience is.

3. Kingman does NOT get the "big bucks".
Yes, Ford Motor Company has generously sponsored our team for the past three of our six years, but they only fund about 1/3 of our team's expenses. Our students must EARN their way to competitions, and most of our team only gets the opportunity to travel to Nationals due to both the expense, and the travel distance and time away from class. Because of all the hard work and dedication the ONLY thing students had to pay this year to attend was $20 for one of their shirts. (Not many wealthy parents in Kingman, I'm afraid.) That's why our drive team is usually the only "spirit" support for Team 60 at regionals. While it can be overwhelming for these small groups at such large events, it fosters bonding among the drivers and also helps us all realize that it is the help, hope and support from OTHER TEAMS that makes us feel good and want to do our best. It shows us that there are MANY others out there who like to win, but like being "winners" even more!

4. Team 60 is just as thrilled when someone notices the art work on our crate and shirts as when people take note of our robot. And there are other aspects that thrill us as well, because the central focus of our team for many, many months of the year, (as I'm sure is the case for most of you,) is not the robot, but the team. Our artists are just as important as our programers. Our essay and CADD submissions hold just as much promise of an award, and we wouldn't even be able to attend events if everyone wasn't willing to pitch in for car washes, discount card sales, etc. EVERY member is important to us... and to all the adults involved with the team.

So there you have it... just a few of our "secrets" that I'm hoping will leak out. (Why else would I be writing this?!;) ) I also wanted to say THANKS to so very many of you that seem to have grasped these concepts yourselves. It's obvious by the way you work, speak, talk and smile with others at the competitions - win or loose. I think you are making Dean very, very proud!

John Larock
04-03-2002, 10:32 AM
Shenders:

While I have never engaged in the discussion about Kingman, I have read most of the messages. I must also admit that I did not know much at all about your team. Most of what I thought I knew was through the board postings.

I absolutely thank you for posting the information on your team. Unfortunately, there are many other casual viewers like me out there who may formulate an opinion about a team based on comments made by others not associated with the team.

These *rumors* or perspectives become reality to many. Not unlike how "reality" is created in the media, a few comments can create an impression about a team or a school or a robot that may be completely untrue.

That being said, you guys seem to have a terrific program. Keep doing what you are doing. And, every once in awhile, send out notes like the one I am replying to -- this will help us all understand the true situation.

Good luck in Florida. The Miracle Workerz look forward to competing with you.

-J-

Patrick Wang
04-03-2002, 11:03 AM
Like many of the FIRST teams I have met, the people on Team 60 are human just like the rest of us.

I've had the opportunity to talk with many of their members, and they share the same experiences that many of our teams do.

I still find it odd that they should need feel ostrasized in any way, sometimes I think we let the competition get ahead of the vision of FIRST. I'll end up catching myself during competition wondering about some of the small things of competition, maybe a ruling that went the wrong way or the like.

Ultimately however, I think that the thing I look most forward to during competition is to meet people. Seeing people from all over the United States get together for one common goal, sharing experiences, knowledge and their ideas is what I see as the most magical thing about FIRST.

Talking to many of the teams, I find that we have more in common than meets the eye. Between rounds I have tried to make it a job of mine to meet all the teams and simply chat.

I know that this post will not simply end the issue, but what my hope is, is that those teams who frequent these boards will take a stance and rectify this ironic misconception.

Best wishes to all your teams,

I look forward to meeting many new people in Florida, and I also hope to see many familiar faces.

Joe Johnson
04-03-2002, 12:24 PM
From every interaction I have had with anyone associated with Kingman, I conclude that they are a quality team in every aspect of the term.

Long live Kingman!

Joe J.

A. Snodgrass
04-03-2002, 01:08 PM
I have to totally agree. Kingman is a very good team. See you guys in LA when I get there! :)

Sean_330
04-03-2002, 01:17 PM
I would encourage anyone who has the chance to to meet Kingman. Their robots are great and their students are friendly. BEfore you judge someone, please get to know them first and not rely on second hand information.

Matt Reiland
04-03-2002, 01:20 PM
I am most impressed you got that monster done ahead of time and even painted. As for the way you do your drivers it's the right way to go.

Ohh and I don't feel bad about you not having engineers if you have machinists, some of the machinists I know have a better understanding of what works and doesn't than the engineers they just can't give you pages of formulas to prove it. ;)

Excellent Bot

ahecht
04-03-2002, 03:15 PM
I have to agree here. 60 is a great team, and doesn't deserve all the abuse they constantly get. It was an honor to be paired up with them at our scrimmage.

Pat Sarmiento
04-07-2002, 03:07 AM
First off, CONGRATULATIONS on your two regional championships, as well as the other design and enginnering awards you've racked up in SV and LA!

I don't think it's really "abuse" per se, Kingman's robot this year looks polished and well-engineered and teams have noticed that and expressed their awe. I mean, you can merely look at their robot and know exactly what it will do, it's that well-made. The fact that the students have so much to do with its design and creation makes it even more impressive. And then when you see them in action... let's just say I love watching them in play. :D

When we were talking to them, they said that the rumors about their robot started on their own, they had not said anything about their robot's performance, yet people saw great potential in Kingman's design and... it went from there. But yes, it is such a great honor to know such an awesome team in all respects. They're all great people, just talk to them. :)

...and we'll see you at nationals. unfortunately there'll be no chance that we'll be in the same division again, but still... ;)

Amy Beth
04-07-2002, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by Pat Sarmiento
I don't think it's really "abuse" per se, Kingman's robot this year looks polished and well-engineered and teams have noticed that and expressed their awe. I mean, you can merely look at their robot and know exactly what it will do, it's that well-made. The fact that the students have so much to do with its design and creation makes it even more impressive. And then when you see them in action... let's just say I love watching them in play. :D


Agreed, Pat. How much of the rumors people spread about Kingman's team is just jealousy? I'm jealous!!! I was only so thankful that my team got to partner with them in LA. I mean, what were the chances that that would happen when neither of us were seeded in the top 8? Still trying to figure out how and why that happened. Hope we get a match with y'all in florida
:D

WakeZero
04-07-2002, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by AmyBeth330


Agreed, Pat. How much of the rumors people spread about Kingman's team is just jealousy? I'm jealous!!! I was only so thankful that my team got to partner with them in LA. I mean, what were the chances that that would happen when neither of us were seeded in the top 8? Still trying to figure out how and why that happened. Hope we get a match with y'all in florida
:D

Who would not be jealous of a robot that can grab two goals in about 3 secs, lift them off the ground and score with them? :D

About LA, I have no idea how it happened (although I guess the scouting of some teams was a little lacking) but I am very happy with the results of the three of us working on the same alliance. It was a blast, cya guys in Orlando!

Ken Loyd
04-07-2002, 06:46 PM
I like Team 60. Team 64 likes team 60. I have an open invitation to vist with them whenever we pass through Kingman (which is often). They sure don't seem like monsters to me.

Ken Loyd

BionicAlumni
04-07-2002, 07:44 PM
First off I would like to thank all of the teams that have showed support for Team 60. You are showing the true meaning of FIRST. I promise you all that Dean would be very proud of you.

A day in the not so far past I was also a member of Team 60. I was a part of the team in the years before be had the wonderful help of 2 of the most amazing people I personally have ever met. Glen and George care more about the people on this team than I think anyone will ever know. I can tell you how many sacrifices I have seen both of these gentlemen make for the good of the team. The long nights and weekends spent at the shop away from their families. The weekends spent at completion. I know this is nothing new to any of the teams reading this. It is a theme we see over and over again with every team. This after all is the spirit of FIRST.

I will never forget the first day our team met Glen and George. Here we are 3 weeks into building our robot looking at a table with a bunch of parts spread across it thinking what do we do with all this junk? (Sound familiar?) We decide there is a piece of aluminum that needs cut and we don't have the tools to do so. Someone suggest that we go out to a machine shop and see if they could do it for us. A few team members go out to the shop and with no hesitation at all Glen is quick to cut the piece for the team. After cutting the piece Glen asked the team members exactly what they need the piece for? The team members explained FIRST to Glen and ever since that day Glen and George along with the rest of us were hooked.

I once asked Glen how anyone on our team could ever repay him for all that he has given us? You know what the answer I got back was? The only way he ever wanted to be repaid is he wanted me to someday make the same kind of affect on another kid as he had made on me, and at that moment I made that promise to him. Glen and George are truly in no stretch of the word my HERO's. Everyday I strive to someday be able to live up to my promise and repay them for everything they have done for me.

OK now that you have read threw all that emotional BS your wondering so what? What does that have to do with this thread at all? Well what I am trying to show you is that FIRST makes a difference. FIRST isn't about some silly robotics competition or who wins a regional and who doesn't. FIRST is about exactly what its name says. For INSPIRATION and RECOGNITION Science and Technology. It doesn't matter who comes out on top after the finals. What matters is that students and inspired and mentors are recognized. If FIRST changes the life of just one member on your team then your team is by far the biggest winners of them all.

After attending the LA regional just days ago I really believe in FIRST even more than when I was on the team. I saw the competition as a spectator and it really opened up my eyes.

Go out there and talk to every team that you can. Make friends. After leaving the program its not the robots that we made and the awards we won that I remember it’s the people I met. People that without FIRST I would have never even had the opportunity to meet. People that I still talk to today on almost a daily basis.

Well I figure I have babbled on enough I hope some of you can understand what I just said. Thank you very much for reading it all.

Team238-aholic
04-08-2002, 12:08 AM
I love Team 60, even though an alumni and I have a bet going on, on who will beat who in the Nationals (its going to be TEam 238!!! LOL) Yes, I still keep in touch with everyone I met through FIRST...LOL its been two years since senior year of high school, and I still talk to people I met freshman year and so on....they are some of my best friends (I love you guys, you know who you are)

Anyways, on to my point:
I always thought you guys had a great robot and played awesome! You guys know you do great and play a HUGE roll in robot building...building the robot is what its all about...and for those teams that say that stuff about you....they are just jealous, because you guys are absolutely awesome! Hehehe I wear my bionic bulldog shirt I own to bed...LOL.....i advertise for you guys all the time...LOL

GOOD LUCK AT NATIONALS!!!!

Eric Bareiss
04-08-2002, 12:57 AM
Team 60 is a class act all of the way. After having talked to thier drivers and team members you realize that they are just like the rest of us. Take it from me, they got just as nervous as the rest of us did. They didn't walk into LA knowing that they were going to win, they had to battle just like the rest of us. And i can honestly say that Nationals will be a lot more exciting this year because of the power of thier robot, can't wait to see how the chips fall.

NeO_Weapon
04-08-2002, 11:36 PM
Team 60 is a great alliance. Team 812 was honored to have you as our alliance at the Southern California Regionals.

Ken Leung
04-09-2002, 02:03 AM
For all the people who are new to this competition, or even this forum, This thread is the perfect example for some of the BEST part of FIRST.

I used to walk around the pit area in competition, admiring at other robots, and jealous at the same time, thinking "why why why do others have so much better looking robot, and we have to use ply wood for the base?"

Needless to say, I made a lot of mistaken first impression on a lot of teams, and wasn't too happy about a lot of things... How teams have engineers surrounding the robot at all time, how other teams' machine are so much more complicated...

But I start doing some talking with people... trying to know teams better and better, I found out exactly what people find out about team 60... There are just so many amazing teams out there working really hard to get to where they are right now.


So, my advice to you all, as I am sure all of us have told you over and over again... Talk to people at competition! Figure out their history, their experience. Get to know their names, where they build the robot, how they work so hard to get everything the way they are, how they get so many people interested in helping their team out...

Just remember, keep an open mind. People do different things are different area, because of different circumstants and such... So, learn what you can, keep a positive attitude, and always always remember, there is no point in feeling bad about yourself. We didn't enter this competition to be jealous of others' robot, or angry at what people do from time to time...

Don't let people ruin your chance of a life time to meet complete strangers from across the country who are as nerdy as you are ;).


Mean while, to keep my post in topic ;) , Team 60 is one of the best team I've ever seen!!!! And I am not just talking about their robot. Very cool to be able to stand next to them when they win Southern California regional.

DanielSlipensky
04-09-2002, 03:20 PM
While I agree with Ken Leung that team 60 is a great team, I'm forced to disagree that they are the BEST team... of course I may be a little partial to my kids... :)

But truthfully, team 60 has always been an incredibly strong and reliable partner, and the members of their team are incredible people. They're friendly, helpful, and always have a good attitude. It is always a pleasure to talk with them.

I keep reading about how some people have had a problem with team 60 in the past. While I have never personally seen any of these posts myself, I can see how some of them might have come about. While the teens on 60 are always nice, the adults sometimes have a bit to work on. I had the pleasure of meeting most of the people from 60 in L.A. over the weekend, and while the experience with the young people was great, meeting the male mentor (I think his name was Glen) left me with a very bad impression of the team as a whole. He was a bit standofish, and really very arrogant. Its too bad that one person can ruin the impression of a really great group of people.

Shenders
04-09-2002, 04:56 PM
Thank you everyone who had such nice things to say about our team. However, (though the title is deceiving,) this wasn't meant to be a thread about team 60... it was a post about YOU -- all of you -- and what you have to offer your teams and everyone else involved in FIRST. Instead of putting others down, making excuses for your mistakes, or acting negatively to others for any reason, try looking at all the POSITIVE things you can give to the program, and all the POSITIVE that FIRST does for you.

If you can take a step back from the competiton for just a little bit I think you will realize that you are a much better person for having had the opportunity to experience all that this program has to offer... and not just at regionals or in Orlando. If you happily contributed your own unique gifts and talents to better your team, then YOU are the WINNER... really!!!

It's not about winning a game. It's about winning in life. Think about that...

RickV
04-09-2002, 09:02 PM
Daniel
This looks like a case of “open the mouth and slipensky the foot.” All though these comments might reflect your impressions, they seem a tad too personal and a bit rude for this forum. My own experience was quite different then yours. I had many conversations with Glen throughout the SV and LA Regionals and found him both engaging and personable. Perhaps if your team (#000?) goes to Orlando, you can pop over to The Bulldogs’ pit and say hello again. I am sure you will find that your first impressions were way off base.

Thanks,
RickV
Team 330

Jason Morrella
04-09-2002, 09:35 PM
But truthfully, team 60 has always been an incredibly strong and reliable partner, and the members of their team are incredible people. They're friendly, helpful, and always have a good attitude. It is always a pleasure to talk with them. While the teens on 60 are always nice, the adults sometimes have a bit to work on. I had the pleasure of meeting most of the people from 60 in L.A. over the weekend, and while the experience with the young people was great, meeting the male mentor (I think his name was Glen) left me with a very bad impression of the team as a whole. He was a bit standofish, and really very arrogant.
I don't really get this post? It has been one thing for people to try to take pot shots at quality teams like 60, 47, and others while not identifying themselves. While this practice has been recognized by most as childish, without credibility, and most likely done out of petty jealousy of the success of these teams - I find it amazing that someone would actually try to pinpoint an individual person without having the gumption to take credit for their comments. I don't know if your name really is DanielSlipensky or not, but I do know the only team from Seattle who attended LA was team 492. I know the coach from team 492 (he is a very good and dedicated coach) and I seriously doubt he would have anything to do with a post like this.

Whoever you are, I can tell you this: I have had the pleasure of getting to know MANY mentors (coaches, engineers, teachers) on MANY teams - Glenn on team 60 being one of them. I have had many conversations with Glenn, and have observed many conversations he has had with others. I can tell you this much about Glen, which I hope does not offend him (maybe I should hide my identity?): Glenn is an honest person with strong values, integrity, and honor - but he is also someone you can consider a mirror - if people are "standoffish" or "arrogant" towards him, he will normally treat them the same way. I have NEVER seen Glenn speak unfriendly to anyone who approached him in a friendly manner. I have seen him react to people who have been standoffish towards him or taken pot shots at his team/robot in the same manner those people treated him.
Its too bad that one person can ruin the impression of a really great group of people.
Be careful, this may be true and could easily apply to you and your team.

If Glenn acted the way you say, rest assured that it was a two way street and maybe you were not aware of how you initiated your discussion with him. I encourage you to approach Glenn in Orlando or next year in a friendly and positive manner, that is how you well be treated. All you need to know about Glenn can be summed up by how he and his students have responded to the people who have made false accusations and posts towards team 60. Each time they have taken the higher ground, have invited those people to come speak to them, and have made no negative comments in return. For the one or two negative posts made towards team 60, there have been countless replies by other teams stating how much they enjoy working with and knowing team 60, and how much respect for Glenn and his team they all have. That should tell you all you need to know abou them and why many teams hope to alliance with them any chance they get.

BionicAlumni
04-16-2002, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by DanielSlipensky
While I agree with Ken Leung that team 60 is a great team, I'm forced to disagree that they are the BEST team... of course I may be a little partial to my kids... :)

But truthfully, team 60 has always been an incredibly strong and reliable partner, and the members of their team are incredible people. They're friendly, helpful, and always have a good attitude. It is always a pleasure to talk with them.

I keep reading about how some people have had a problem with team 60 in the past. While I have never personally seen any of these posts myself, I can see how some of them might have come about. While the teens on 60 are always nice, the adults sometimes have a bit to work on. I had the pleasure of meeting most of the people from 60 in L.A. over the weekend, and while the experience with the young people was great, meeting the male mentor (I think his name was Glen) left me with a very bad impression of the team as a whole. He was a bit standofish, and really very arrogant. Its too bad that one person can ruin the impression of a really great group of people.


Unfortunately I feel I have to take responsibility for this. I don't think you talked to Glen I in fact think you talked to me. After team 60 victory in LA I was standing in front of team 60's pit and over heard some members of team 492 say some, how should I put this, not so gracious or professional things about team 60. As a former member of the team I did stand up for the team did become somewhat standoffish. I apologize to me old team (Team 60) along with team 492 if any of my comments we unjust. It’s just as a former member of the team, hearing some of the pot shots that were being taken at the team upset me a little.

Stop by team 60's pit in florida and ask to talk to the real Glen,he is an amazing guy.