pic: 1493 Drive Train 1

[Dan-o]

[cdm-description=photo]20163[/cdm-description]

[phrontist]

We're doing a very similar drive train... conceptually. The six wheel, all driven, four omni concept is a good one.

[Dan-o]

Sorry about the mis-sizing of the picture. Instead of posting tons of pictures, i figured it'd be better to post a topic, so i can show you lots of pictures and videos.


Drive Train 2 (http://www.rpi.edu/~rotonl/DSCN0136.JPG)
Drive Train 3 (http://www.rpi.edu/~rotonl/DSCN0146.JPG)
Drive Train 4 (http://www.rpi.edu/~rotonl/DSCN0150.JPG)
Drive Train 5 (http://www.rpi.edu/~rotonl/DSCN0155.JPG)
Omni Wheel (http://www.rpi.edu/~rotonl/DSCN0138.JPG)
Construction of Arm (http://www.rpi.edu/~rotonl/DSCN0139.JPG)
Arm Assembly (http://www.rpi.edu/~rotonl/DSCN0143.JPG)
Wrist Gear Box (http://www.rpi.edu/~rotonl/DSCN0144.JPG)

Video of spinning drive train (Short) (http://www.rpi.edu/~rotonl/spin%202.MOV)
Video of Spinning Drive Train (Long) (http://www.rpi.edu/~rotonl/spin%201.MOV)

I don't yet have pictures of our arm mounted to the chassis, but I will be posting as soon as I can get ahold of them.

Our team (1493) will be at UTC this year to show off this fine machine. The bot that comes to mind when I see this thing run is a more maneuverable 25's 2003 bot. This thing is FAST.

Well, tell us what you think.

[Rohan_DHS]

nice wheels :D they look cool....

gl and hf at your competetion

[Alex Cormier]

sweet wheels! where did you get the design for those wheels? great job!

[Dan-o]

The design is a wheel that sells for 80 bucks on some guy's website. This guy thinks it's a good idea to post his cad of the wheels he designs as it will help him sell more. Fortunately, due to water jet machines, and the lack of adequate patents, we were able to make the wheels for just $15 a piece. Frugality mixed with some creativity usually heeds desirable results.


/edit

After further consideration, I have found that my wording was reckless at best. I have not changed the original post as not to disrupt the flow of this thread. I have written a formal apology that can be found lower on this page. I hope people reading this for the first time will read my apology before replying to this thread.

Also, the $15 thing doesn't include labor, waterjet fees, paint, and other stuff that would be factored into the price of Andy's wheels.

[gofortyeight]

By the way, the original concept of the wheel was taken from the AndyMark.biz website. With a few tweakings to his original design, we feel that we've created a more superior wheel than the ones for sale.

[MikeDubreuil]

The design is a wheel that sells for 80 bucks on some guy's website. This guy thinks it's a good idea to post his cad of the wheels he designs as it will help him sell more. Fortunately, due to water jet machines, and the lack of adequate patents, we were able to make the wheels for just $15 a piece. Frugality mixed with some creativity usually heeds desirable results.
I don't think Mr. Baker or Mr. Koors would appreciate you making them look incompetent; our team is a customer of theirs and we certainly don't appreciate it. Perhaps, they are generously offering their design for everyone's free use, rather than being stupefied by the patent process. For instance, my team would rather pay to have them manufacture components than devote a mentor's time to it.
As someone who ripped off their design the least you could do is say that you took the plans from AndyMark.biz and manufactured your own parts and that you appreciate their generosity in helping your team expedite the build process.

[Cory]

The design is a wheel that sells for 80 bucks on some guy's website. This guy thinks it's a good idea to post his cad of the wheels he designs as it will help him sell more. Fortunately, due to water jet machines, and the lack of adequate patents, we were able to make the wheels for just $15 a piece. Frugality mixed with some creativity usually heeds desirable results.

"That guy" happens to be one of the most well respected mentors in FIRST, who shares his designs so that EVERYONE (Your ingrateful self included) can have a chance to use them. He does this for the good of all FIRST teams, to close the gap between teams with lots of resources, and teams with fewer resources. The least you can do is thank him, and not mock and trivialize his work.

[David Kelly]

The design is a wheel that sells for 80 bucks on some guy's website. This guy thinks it's a good idea to post his cad of the wheels he designs as it will help him sell more. Fortunately, due to water jet machines, and the lack of adequate patents, we were able to make the wheels for just $15 a piece. Frugality mixed with some creativity usually heeds desirable results.

Wow, that sure was harsh for a couple of generous guys that provide some of the best mentoring and services to the FIRST community. Oh, and the quality of materials they are using are not cheap and they are of high quality.

Have some respect.

[Wayne Doenges]

The design is a wheel that sells for 80 bucks on some guy's website. This guy thinks it's a good idea to post his cad of the wheels he designs as it will help him sell more. Fortunately, due to water jet machines, and the lack of adequate patents, we were able to make the wheels for just $15 a piece. Frugality mixed with some creativity usually heeds desirable results

Andy Baker, Mark Koors and Team 45 have done more for other teams in the way of products and white papers than any other team I know. If the drawings were posted than I think Andy and Mark wanted people to make their own wheels. Just like the white paper on the dual motor mount from a few years back.
I know Team 45 donated the use of one of their robots to a team that need one so they could compete.
This "guy" has been involved with FIRST from that beginning and I don't think you or gofortyeight have any right to belittle what he does :mad:
Another thing you may not have considered is that anyone who bought AndyMark's wheels can use them in the coming years. They are COTS. Yours are not, so you will have to make them every year :p
I hope you don't find out the hard way what your comments have done. I hope that if you break something, or need a part, that another team will remember GP and help you out. That's what we do.
*puts away soapbox*

Wayne Doenges
CAD Mentor

[Andy Baker]

OK, before everyone piles on here, I need to say a few things. Cory, Wayne, Mike, David; I greatly appreciate your support.

It is week 5, going on week 6. We are all working on no sleep. These guys are excited about their design and have said some things without knowing the background of what has happened during the past few years. It seems that they have no clue about "sharing designs" and what has been happening in the FIRST community.

It seems that these guys just need a bit of education. I'll do the honors:

Waaay back in the 2000 build season, Joe Johnson posted a print on this website of a single part that would improve the Bosch gearbox. This sharing got me thinking: "we have a pretty good motor mount/2-speed shifter - teams would like to see this design and use it". This Gear switching and motor mount design white paper (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/papers.php?s=&action=single&paperid=9) is listed here. Notice the # of downloads this received (almost 150k). While this was not the first shifting gearbox in FIRST, but it was the first time that 90% of the teams discovered how to do this. I like to think that this design is the grandfather to many good designs used in FIRST, from shift-on-the-fly transmissions to the Nothing but Dewalts design. Ah, but I digress...

We had so much fun giving away that design, that in 2001, we produced the Dual motor shifting gearbox (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/papers.php?s=&action=single&paperid=21) whitepaper, and people seemed to like that too. During that year, we also gave away some silly software that helped teams auto-balance the bridge. Some of those teams put their own twist on that software and even won awards... it was all good.

In 2002, we really came up with a doozy... a 6 motor, dual speed, shift-on-the-fly transmission (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/papers.php?s=&action=single&paperid=78). This was such a hit that other teams started posting their designs. Dave Lavery did this, Andy Brockway also, and teams 217, 222, and 226. It was a good thing. People were learning left and right. 14-year olds knew what a pitch diameter is... cool stuff.

In 2003, we went crazy. This foolish "sharing of designs" was an epidemic. People would post their CAD pictures on this site and get critiqued right and left. We posted two designs that year this gearbox (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/papers.php?s=&action=single&paperid=200) and (drum roll please)... The TechnoKat Trick Wheel (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/papers.php?s=&action=single&paperid=200). Keep in mind that this was in 2003. In FIRST, these sorts of omni-wheels were used as far back as 1998, when we had one on our robot, and 67 had one on theirs. Others might have had them also, but I don't know, since I am just "this guy" who does not know what he is talking about. Between the years of 99-03, many teams used variations of these omni-wheels. We just (finally) decided to post prints of them after the 2003 season.

Of course, any silly engineer would know that these "trick wheels" are not patentable.

Oh... and also in 2003, I was fortunate to win an award for this sharing of designs. That was awesomely cool.

On a note about the 2003 year and the gearbox design, check out this thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21302&page=1&pp=15&highlight=standing+shoulders), and especially take note of the first post on the second page of this thread. I specifically point out "... Better yet, improve upon the design and post your findings". Using someone else's designs and improving on them is a GOOD THING, and it is expected.

Now... getting to modern day (whew - that took a while): Mark and I decided to start this venture of AndyMark. We decided to post our CAD pics. Believe it or not, we expected teams to download our files and create these things themselves, in some cases. Heck, I even mention that here (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=287733&postcount=19). So... the idea of using these designs and thinking that you have pulled a good one on us is not that novel. This is OK!

So, with all of this said, I have two comments Dan and go48:
1. sweet wheels!
2. please send your fabricator's contact info to me, as I would like to have them give me a quote on making parts ($15 is a good value)

Some guy,
Andy B.

(sorry for being so long winded)

[Dan-o]

WHOA! Before this gets blown out of proportion, let me apologize for any feelings I have hurt. I feel that I have been mostly misunderstood. Also know that words expressed here, though greatly misworded, were the words of one person, me, and do not represent the words of my team, team 1493.

Let me go in order of posts. I really did not mean for this to be taken this way. And I greatly apologize.

First. The design for the wheels was amazing, that's why we used them.

Second, I had no idea it was Andy Baker's Design, because the omni wheels were not my part of the project. I did not know who to give credit to, so I just said some guy. Quite an understatement on my part, and I apologize.

Thrid, I would like to publicly thank Andy Baker for publishing his design to make it possible for FIRST teams to fabricate the parts.

Fourth, I did not mean to trivialize the work of Andy Baker, and I apologize for comments leading you to believe that I am not grateful.

Fifth, Ok this is a big one. I do not down the product produced by Andy and his group, nor say that it uses cheap products. I greatly respect your work, and encourage other teams to buy your products.

Sixth, to Wayne, I truly did not mean to belittle the work of these great engineers. Andy's design is far greater than any design that our team could come up with for wheels, and that's why we used the design. I did not mean to say anything less than wow, those wheels really helped.

Lastly, to Andy, I am amazed at the professionalism you conveyed by trying to lighten the tone a little on this exploding conversation. For this, I am very greatful, and have great respect for you. Wow, I am still taken back by all this. Though I do believe I was misunderstood, I do admit that I was reckless with my wording, for which I apologize. I feel like a fool for opening this can of worms, as it's like a kindergardener walking into a doctorate level engineering design course. I wish I could change the words of my first post, but that would not be fair to the people who posted after me. I hope that anyone who reads the first few messages in this thread reads this reply, and understands my utmost respect for an engineering genius. From the bottom of my heart, I apologize.

On a side note, I will talk to the people who fabricated the wheels, and get you a bill of materials.

[Andy Baker]

Brandon,

I greatly appreciate your reply, and understand that you were misunderstood. I believe that you were simply excited about your team's robot (as we all are), and did not know the background of what was going on here.

Making an "engineering find" that works for your team is something to be proud of, as your original post shows. This is a good thing.

Your apology is accepted for an innocent mistake. People... there is bit of a lesson here. A person is not defined by what mistakes they make, but moreso by what they do after they realize their mistake.

(I still may go around as "some guy" once in a while, though... :) )

Andy B.

[Wayne Doenges]

I too accept your apology.
I also understand that we sometimes get excited and say or do the wrong thing :ahh:
I hope you do real well this year. That's one sweet bot.

Wayne Doenges
CAD Mentor

[KjataHades]

Ok, so before you hear stories left and right and before anything else goes on with assumptions, I'm going to tell the whole truth.

This is my first year being part of FIRST robotics since we didn't have it as part of my HS. I heard about it from my roommate last year and joined up on it b/c it fit nicely with a course we take here.

As part of team 1493, part of my job was to work on the omniwheels in question. I worked with another teammate (known here as gofortyeight). We decided that we'd want omniwheels on our robot and so after that it became our job to make sure those got done right. So i stumbled upon the omniwheels and later saw the post that Andy said "Teams can then choose to purchase our assemblies or make (and/or alter) these designs themselves." I saw the wheels and they looked perfect for the job we wanted to do with them. With the permission on that thread that anyone was allowed to use them to make their own with their own fixes on it, I saw no problem in getting the files from the site. At first the step files wouldn't work for me so i had started using the pdf engineering drawings to make them in SolidWorks, but then Garret got it to work, as it seemed i put the wrong extension on it. So i then went from there with both files now to use to make the omniwheels. As I was going along with that, certain things came up pertaining to our robot (as you see the drive system with the chains, we needed a way to get the sprockets/spacers and such attached to the omniwheels), so I started messing with a few things on the wheels as far as attachment holes. Then we decided it would be nice to personalize them to put some flare on our robot, and thus the text was placed on it. Also minorly changed a few things as far as the size of the spaces for the washers and a few things like that. We used the waterjet to cut out the hubs and washers, got those pins done manually from a long piece of stock, and then put it all together.

I'd like to thank Andy and whoever helped first create them, they work like a charm, a great job on concept and design of the wheels. Personal changes were made so that sprockets, spacer, and bearings could fit nicely into a single assembly with the omniwheels.

Comments of any kind can be directed to me via email or IM. I know i said many times where we got the designs within our group, but i'm a small guy so i guess i just need to be louder. The wheels were partly my project and not the person who originally posted the pictures, so i'll take responsibility for all of it.