View Full Version : Speed to Goal?
Jim McGeehin
07-04-2002, 16:11
To assist all teams in their scouting needs, team should probably post their speeds from start to goal. How fast does your robot get out from the start of the match until your robot makes it to the goals?
MOE's speed is 3-4 seconds.
Team 329 is also 3-5 secs to goal and latched on, this being with a speed of 6fps. Our Mighty Mouse moves much faster though (speed classified :p )
We get to the goal pretty fast. Not sure of the exact time, but it's way down there.
Hmm... our orange d00d does about 12, 14fps... distance to the goal is about 18'4".... over x... cross-multiply... carry the one... factor in wind-resistance.... carpet friction.... calculate drag co-efficients... :D We can make it in a little under 2 seconds on wheels if we go in a straight line. Then we switch to treads, the robot bounces up, and the power comes in :D :D :D
For a nice pic of our drive system, go here (http://24.186.144.31:83/random%20pics/inet%20out/random07.jpg), here (http://24.186.144.31:83/random%20pics/inet%20out/random04.jpg) (while having some work done on the treads), or here (http://24.186.144.31:83/random%20pics/inet%20out/random11.jpg) (to see how the robot looks put together, except for the side panels)
We averaged snagging two goals at once from the starting block in 3.2 seconds.
Jeff Rodriguez
07-04-2002, 17:20
Our high gear is 12 fps, so do the math, its about 2 seconds
Originally posted by SuperDanman
We get to the goal pretty fast. Not sure of the exact time, but it's way down there.
From briefly reviewing some our matches, it seems that we collide with the center goal in near 2 seconds flat.
I'd imagine the side goal is a fraction of second faster, since it's a shorter distance away.
DaBruteForceGuy
07-04-2002, 17:31
Yes our robot is very vast but parnered with the enineering comes one more factor that could bring that number down to about 1.6seconds..........
EXCELLENT DRIVING!
GaelHawks230
07-04-2002, 20:51
Team 230 latches on to both goals in approximately 3.2 seconds
Brian Savitt
07-04-2002, 21:20
We can get to the goals within2-4 seconds of the start of a match depending on how good of a launch we usually get usually we get in around 3 seconds.
BRian
K. Skontrianos
07-04-2002, 21:32
We're about 2 - 3 seconds to the goal. At Rutgers, we were one of the quickest to the goal.
DaveO'B365
07-04-2002, 21:59
Originally posted by Jim McGeehin
How fast does your robot get out from the start of the match until your robot makes it to the goals?
just to clear this up a bit... how fast can you achieve in a match, not theoretically how fast can you get to the goals... i'm not implying anything, but well, i don't remember more than a few people making their grab in less than 5 unless i'm mistaken, but i've watched quite a few matches, maybe i missed all you guys (or a couple of ya). i'll admit i was fixing moe for most of the matches, but i would think that it would have been brought to my attention if someone was incredibly fast at the regionals i attended...(i have watched some web cast videos too)
Dave-
Insanity is relative.
"Like olympic medals and tennis trophies, all they signified was that the owner had done something of no benefit to anyone more capably than everyone else."
-Catch 22
George1902
07-04-2002, 22:35
i believe the original question asked how fast you can get to the goals... we can do that in about 2 seconds in high gear
our bot auto aligns on the goal and auto engages once we're aligned... this should happen after about 3 seconds
add about half a second to switch to low gear and SPAM's in business... 3.5 to 4.5 seconds for the whole process
on an unrelated note... at nationals i hope we're in the same division as MOE like last year... you guys cheered very loudly and we aim to beat ya out in the spirit department this year!! =-]
George
S.P.A.M.
Team 180
In about 7 seconds team 639 can get to the goals, get a death grip on them, and move them into our goal zone (it's all done in one movment, ram and grab).
Originally posted by DaveO'B365
just to clear this up a bit... how fast can you achieve in a match, not theoretically how fast can you get to the goals... but i've watched quite a few matches, maybe i missed all you guys (or a couple of ya)... if someone was incredibly fast at the regionals i attended...(i have watched some web cast videos too)
Go to this (http://www.columbia.edu/acis/networks/advanced/first/day2pm.ram) stream from the NYC regional, seek to about 52:15 (Quarterfinal 3, Match 3). We're the bright orange crashers/blocker. It kinda cuts off of us at the begining, so you don't see EXACTLY how fast we go, but you get the idea. We play around with GRR for a bit (mainly block them from getting out of their homezone). Then it looks like we're suddenly about to lose. If you watch it to the very end, you can see how we're both a speed and power bot. In the last 30, 20 seconds, we go onto treads, push a robot with a goal from their scoring position into ours, go back onto wheels, and make it home with a few seconds to sit around and watch the action. This was one of our more fun rounds =D
HotWheels2002
07-04-2002, 23:25
Because Firestorm 4 has so much torque, it takes us about 5 or 6 seconds to get to the goals. We can get two goals to the fourth zone (and hold them there quite well) as early as maybe 16 seconds into a match.
Jim McGeehin
08-04-2002, 11:00
Well, theoretical speed is one thing, but actual speed would be a little more relevant.
Katie Reynolds
08-04-2002, 12:11
We can get to the goals in about 3 seconds (we normally go about 6 fps) but for some matches at MMR we geared TOBOR V up to get the goals in two seocnds (going at 12 fps).
- Katie
Dan-
Even though i probably saw the match, i'd like to watch it again, but i don't have real player.
to All-
Does anyone know where i can get real player from? whenever i search, i get some real one player, which apparently costs money, hence the FREE 14 day trial. i don't want to pay (seeing as i have no money :p), and all i want is the original real player so i can watch the movie. thanks in advance.
Chris Hibner
08-04-2002, 15:20
At the West Michigan Regional, our average time to the goals was 2.75 s when we were going for two goals. Unfortunately, our goal latch mechanism wasn't working very well so we lost the goals a number of times even though we got there first.
The good news is that we've already made a fix that works wonderfully so we shouldn't have any goal latching problems at nationals.
Can't wait for Disney!
-Chris
Mike Norton
08-04-2002, 15:38
I see that speed is one thing but to be able to grab the goal with as much speed is another.
We took alot of goals away from teams because they were slow on grabbing it.
We were quick but we were faster grabing the goal and running with it.
the fastest team might of beat us to the goal but the time it took us to get there and pull away the other team had no chance for it.
And if they did grab it we pulled them away very quickly.:)
DaBruteForceGuy
08-04-2002, 19:00
That is true, so actually, we totally avoided the "goal latching device" completely;)
We rely on our quickness to get to and smack the goals out of the way preventing other grabbing mechanisms to be affective. I actually works pretty well and doesn't restrict us from helping and or blocking our alliance partner.
in conclusion BruteForce triunfs once again!
Well since we're letting people know our team tactics, I might as well finish where you left off ;).
We basically choosed to ignore the goal-handling aspect of the game in the sense of latching on and holding the goal. Now, yes, this does have it's drawbacks, but it also allows us to concentrate on controlling other robots - which is the important part. The team 810 robot is a low guy designed for pushing other robots where we want them to go and controlling other bots. We can switch between wheels and treads on the fly. We spend most of the match on wheels trying to interfere with other robots (like getting in their path so that they can't get out of their homezone, ala team GRR :D:D) Then, when need requires it, we jump up onto treads and push doods around. Thats baiscally what happened that one round I linked you guys to: we were controlling other robots, then during the last few seconds, we went into tread mode and pushed that other poor guy from their scoring position into our scoring position - while he was latched onto the goal. We switched back onto wheels and zipped it out of there back into our homezone, winning the round for us.
This of course is the plan, and as we all know, it doesn't always go according to plan. Contrary to what Steve said before, brute force doesn't always triumph (don't mind him, he's only our team ego ;) ). That round let us go onto the semi-finals, where we lost. As it turns out, we lost mainly because we were hitting TRIBE at the wrong angle. We were trying to move them perpendicular to their drive train, and if they have two goals that just doesn't work no matter HOW much power you have. But thats a driver problem that we have to work on. Don't worry, TRIBE, next time we'll push you from the front so that you will be pushed into our scoring zone :p
Anyways, thats how our robot works, for all you scouts out there. All that we have to do now is look over the videos and see where our drivers need improving, and we're all set for Nationals.
Now that I've told you how team 810 works, for the scouts, how does everyone else's bot work?
Mike Norton
08-04-2002, 19:49
That round let us go onto the semi-finals, where we lost. As it turns out, we lost mainly because we were hitting TRIBE at the wrong angle.
If you have the power this should not have stopped you.
People have try that agaisnt us and they have gone over take a look
http://www.valleytech.k12.ma.us/Robotics/images/2002%20Robot%20Flipping%20Robot.jpg
this is two goals and a robot Heat wave which is a good team. then we push there teammate and the other goal all at the same time.
this is power.
This is how they planted themself
http://www.valleytech.k12.ma.us/Robotics/images/2002%20Robot%20Flipping%20Robot2.jpg
Well it all depends on the robot's drive train and how they are aligned according to you.
The problem was that we were trying to move TRIBE by essentially going broadside into them. TRIBE was latched onto two goals, one on the front, one on the back. We were trying to move them by pushing them right in the center at 90 degrees to their movement path.
http://24.186.144.31:81/bots.gif
If you try and do this, it all depends on how much surface area they have touching the carpet. If they just have 4 wheel-chair wheels touching the carpet, then yes, this is possible. If they have treads running the lengthwise of their robot, doing something like this becomes a lot harder - no matter HOW much power you have. When trying to push a bot this way, what it basically comes down to is their drive system and how much surface area they have in contact with the ground. Our problem is that we tried to push TRIBE like this more than once. Had our drivers pushed them at an angle, pushed the goal (not their center of balance), or better yet, gotten parallel to them and pushed the goal, theres a strong chance that we would have moved them. Either way - thats why we have videos of the event - to see what we did wrong and improve on it next time. :D
BTW, that picture didn't work. You sure you have the link right? I'd like to see this bot of yours :)
we are always up for a challenge. I am not guaranteeing victory just predicting it.
GO MOE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Matt Reiland
08-04-2002, 20:49
Anyone who's seen the 226 bot may have needed a high speed camera to clear up the blur (Just kidding)
We can hit the center goal in 2 secs every time right now with a slight delay to the outsides but not much since we 4 wheel steer at full speed. The biggest problem we have? We are geared a bit high with a 1 speed tranny and had to make sure the wheels would slip before stalling out the motors. A little bit of work is in order in Florida but the gearing is staying (it's all welded;) ) and we will enter in any races
Mike Norton
09-04-2002, 07:34
try this link
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/pictures.php?s=&action=single&picid=2571&direction=DESC&sort=date&perrow=4&trows=3
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/pictures.php?s=&action=single&picid=2573&direction=DESC&sort=date&perrow=4&trows=3
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/pictures.php?s=&action=single&picid=2637&direction=DESC&sort=date&perrow=4&trows=3
This will show you team heat wave had both goals in there in zone. We turn them around and dragged them to our zone then push the third goal with there team mate trying to stop us.
I don't no why the other links didn't work?
DaBruteForceGuy
09-04-2002, 19:11
(now u r in for it!)
ACHEMM...
The reason why dan and i had trouble even in the spot with tribe at colombia was due to the fact that i did aim for the first goal. i don't care about numbers, all i know is that every time that we the drivers were set on getting rid of one of the goals we were always there on time and got the job done no matter the opponent!
I m not saying that there were errors in strategie in some of the matches (achm **dennis**), but once we finished with our side of the deal there was always so much time left that anything could happen. Yes, i m bragging about our speed but only because i m confident beyond all rookie teams, that we the bulls, had the fastest drive system in the tri-state area. this is mainly because we are a drive system and left all the other mechinisms considered being robotic, "IN THE DUST"
yes, but steve, you have to remember something. as Mr. Blumburg explained to me today, even if we do have the fastest drive train, we can't compete on the same level as the other robots. sure, hauppage (358) can't grab a goal either, but they have a really nice pusher, which works extremely well, untill certain people *cough*steve*cough ram into it. :p
as everyone that's seen our bot knows, we have a piston on top, which never did a single thing. we had plans for it, but we ran outta weight. Well, hopefully at nats, if i can convince my team, i have another idea, which will give us more control over a goal. plus, we won't have that stupid piston on just to add weight. i can't say what this system will do, although i can say that if i can build it, it will work no matter what. it's that simple. :D
DaBruteForceGuy
09-04-2002, 19:31
hauppage (358) can't grab a goal either, but they have a really nice pusher, which works extremely well, untill certain people *cough*steve*cough ram into it.
THAT WAS AN ACCIDENT!!!
but i would like to hear (or see) this idea of u'rs seeing that i would be the one to have to build it!
actually, this idea of mine is simple enough that even a programmer, like me, could put it together in about a total of 5 minutes, provided that i had the right materials for the job. i fyou want to here my idea, tell dennis to stay after school one day, and i'll explain it to all. it's come up before as an idea, but everyone shunned it for reasons unknown to me. anyways, it seems that this is the best idea that we have, considering anything else won't be legal due to excess weight.
on another note, does anyone know if small parts is still selling parts to us? for my idea, i need some parts that aren't on the AHL.
Originally posted by SuperDanman
Well it all depends on the robot's drive train and how they are aligned according to you.
The problem was that we were trying to move TRIBE by essentially going broadside into them. TRIBE was latched onto two goals, one on the front, one on the back. We were trying to move them by pushing them right in the center at 90 degrees to their movement path.
http://24.186.144.31:81/bots.gif
If you try and do this, it all depends on how much surface area they have touching the carpet. If they just have 4 wheel-chair wheels touching the carpet, then yes, this is possible. If they have treads running the lengthwise of their robot, doing something like this becomes a lot harder - no matter HOW much power you have. When trying to push a bot this way, what it basically comes down to is their drive system and how much surface area they have in contact with the ground. Our problem is that we tried to push TRIBE like this more than once. Had our drivers pushed them at an angle, pushed the goal (not their center of balance), or better yet, gotten parallel to them and pushed the goal, theres a strong chance that we would have moved them. Either way - thats why we have videos of the event - to see what we did wrong and improve on it next time. :D
BTW, that picture didn't work. You sure you have the link right? I'd like to see this bot of yours :)
Surface area has very little to do with pushing power (it has NOTHING to do with friction), the only real way to get a holding advantage is to add more force on your wheels, lift the goals or somehting else. I was talking to a team at the canadian regional and I asked them what they would do to increase their pushing power, their answer was "we would use more motors" :)
There are ways to max traction but if you really want an advantage you have to get more then 130 pounds pushing down.
Originally posted by GregT
Surface area has very little to do with pushing power (it has NOTHING to do with friction), the only real way to get a holding advantage is to add more force on your wheels, lift the goals or somehting else. I was talking to a team at the canadian regional and I asked them what they would do to increase their pushing power, their answer was "we would use more motors" :)
There are ways to max traction but if you really want an advantage you have to get more then 130 pounds pushing down.
I'm writing this out, mostly, to try to get things straight in my head. Because, honestly, I don't entirely understand all of this.
Here's how surface area plays into things, in my mind. . . I could be off, or flat out wrong, or just somehow miscommunicating my ideas or whatever, but I'll try.
Friction, as everyone seems to know, is calculated by multiplying the coefficient of friction with the normal force of the floor on the robot. . . and, as such, by increasing the force (i.e., increasing your mass by lifting a goal) you increase the force of friction at the contact point with the floor.
Now, your drivetrain needs to overcome that additional friction to make the robot accelerate. Again, a natural delineation as a result of the increased friction.
The available torque of the motors is finite. By increasing the minimum amount of torque required to accelerate your robot, you're limiting your ability to accelerate at a greater rate, than, say, a similar robot without the additional friction.
Now, when it comes to wheel slip, the increased friction seems like it should be beneficial. You've made the force of friction greater, and thus it's harder to overcome . . .leading to a higher threshold (of sorts) before wheels slip. . .
Our design, though, doesn't rely on the added friction. Physically, in a tangible, lie-down-and-see-it sort of way, our belt material interacts with the loops of the carpeting. In this way, they are entangled (but not in a way that's damaging ;)
So, this is how we harness the available torque in our drivetrain. Rather than make friction hard to overcome, we reduce slippage. While a wheel has a very small contact area, our belts are 194 in. sq. So, should one part slip, and lose it's grip on the carpet, the remaining part of that area has a good shot at reengaging that grip. Additionally, since we aren't overcoming extra friction, it stands to reason that we have a greater availability of torque (??) and can accelerate faster. . . That doesn't sound right, somehow, and probably isn't.
To me, it's just a slightly different method of achieving a similar end result. On a flat floor, I'd imagine, our design wouldn't be as effective.
But, that's how I see it, I think. Like I said, I don't quite understand it myself, and if someone with a degree (preferably in engineering or physics!!) wants to step in and make sense out of this for me, I'd love it. . .
In the end, though, I know what we did works. Whether our belting is excessive or not is debatable, though.
238junior
09-04-2002, 21:30
Our robot from team 238 runs at 15 feet a second on wheels. So we can get to the goal in about a second or two. We also have track that we can drop up in down for more traction. SO we have a two drive system.
238 Wat??
Michael-
Don't underestimate our bot on a hard floor. Remember, we pushed Mr. Drexel down a tiled floor (not sure if you were there) on the treads. There's plenty of friction in our robot and treads to push stuff on a flat, tile floor. Sure, the carpet really helps with our traction (or whatever keeps us from slipping), but we can still push more than our own weight on a tile floor. Not that moving on a flat floor even matters. :D
238junior-
how does your track system work, and do you have a goal grabber? cause your robot sounds strangly very much like ours. although, if you really can do 15 fps, you have an ever so slight speed advantage. if your going to nationals, i'd like to see your robot, sounds like another interesting design, cause the way we did our treads, well, ask Michael about that design. :p
Eric Bareiss
09-04-2002, 23:25
our team is about 2-2.5 to the goals but we don't grab them that fast, lately we haven't grabbed at at all, we just push, and i'll tell you it works great, with swerve drive we don't like to be tied down with a goal. But who i would be worried about is Kingman, During the playoffs in LA, they could literally hit two goals and latch in less than 2 seconds, after that it was over, they can't be moved. They never got beat to the center goal.
Team238-aholic
10-04-2002, 08:51
238junior-
how does your track system work, and do you have a goal grabber? cause your robot sounds strangly very much like ours. although, if you really can do 15 fps, you have an ever so slight speed advantage. if your going to nationals, i'd like to see your robot, sounds like another interesting design, cause the way we did our treads, well, ask Michael about that design.
Sine my brother is slow, I thought I could reply back....
Yes the team is going to nationals :D , and they can grab onto a goal....once they grab onto a goal, they can not come off until the end of a match... and thats basically all I know since I'm not on the team anymore...hehehe....I'll have Patrick explain more when he comes online....
We can cross the field in 5 seconds...
Ian W.-
Hi i am the vice president of team 238. to let u know more about our drive system. It is a dual drive system. We start out on our wheels which are run by atwood motors so we r very fast going at about 15 fps like my bro said(238junior), ummmm we have one goal grabber which starts out inside of our robot and it detaches and when we latch onto the goal we can unlatch very easily also, with just a flip of a switch. The latch that keeps us on the goal or off is run by neumatics As so is our tracks. When we grab the goal we can drop on our tracks which gives us more traction and is harder to pull us around!! The tracks which our put down by neumatics then run on the fisher price motors if i spelt that right. This is very effective and it gives us the traction when we need it and we can switch back and forth very easily like i said with just a flip of a switch!
Matt Reiland
10-04-2002, 15:37
VP238 do you use only the Fisher price or the FP and the BOSCH, the FP would seem to overheat with all of the stress of tracks. Ours are practically overheating just driving 4.5" wheels (But our gearing is for hi-speed) maybe you have some super low gearing?
DaveO'B365
10-04-2002, 16:05
Originally posted by Matt Reiland
VP238 do you use only the Fisher price or the FP and the BOSCH, the FP would seem to overheat with all of the stress of tracks. Ours are practically overheating just driving 4.5" wheels (But our gearing is for hi-speed) maybe you have some super low gearing?
hey, just a thought, they couldn't be geared way down or they wouldn't be going that 15 fps that they say, but i guess i'll let them answer the rest for themselves
oh, and hey, i was not trying to be rude in my last post on this thread, i was just present when we decided to start this thread, and it was mind-boggling to see all these ultra-fast bots, i mean we've achieve the low 2-second range, but it destabilized our battery pulling that much amperage that quickly, so we've geared down a bit.
Dave-
Insanity is relative.
"Like olympic medals and tennis trophies, all they signified was that the owner had done something of no benefit to anyone more capably than everyone else."
-Catch 22
238junior
10-04-2002, 18:11
We have a dual drive system when on our tracks we use fisher price motors two of them which make the tracks go about 8fps. Also with a gear ratio of 112:1. On our wheels we use the Atwood motors which make us go 15fps, we can only go that fast on wheels!!!!!!! our gear ratio for this is 8:1.
Phil Chang
11-04-2002, 17:49
-after reading this forum and many threads on goal and ball grabbers, i failed to notice many users mentioning team 469, im unsure if you are well aware of our capabilities but it seems this team is under represented. Team 469 has won both regionals it has gone to, and also has been the dominating factor in both its wins. winning 2 regionals is unique in itself, but being the primary advocate of both wins is even more. 469 is a 2 goal grabbing bot and also has lift capability. 2 gear transmission and a low center of gravity. we have yet to be manhandled in power by any bot alone, and usually hold our own against 2 bots. we have been know to grab to goals, lift them, and score in the point zone within a 5 second time frame. we look forward to nationals and suprising everyone with our robot. when making lists of capable robots and dominant alliances, make sure to include Team 469-Las Guerrillas.
i have a question for all the really fast robots out there.
Are you guys concentrated on gettng as many balls in th ebest time as possible?
the only reason i ask beause most of the time high speed = low torgque and if you were planning to grab a goal; you might grab it first but then get tugged around. There are solutions to this problem like being able to switch your motors from spped to torque (like team 345, a great bot from VA) and other stuff like that but i want to hear from the teams that dont do that kind of stuff.
Matt Reiland
13-04-2002, 14:10
This year we wanted to try swerve out (because it is soo cool) which doesn't lend itself well to gear shifting (though it could be done). After we decided to go swerving we figured we wouldn't win many pull offs with the wheels that we were going to put into steerable modules so we took the other extreme and went for all out speed all of the time. With our level of traction we can pull pretty good but we don't stall the motors we just start spinning. Is it the best strategy for this years contest, probably not, but it's fun to cover the whole field in under 5 seconds plus you can go get goals that other teams leave out there and get home quick. We will be using the speed in Florida to grab tethers and hopefully always make them come to our zone. One thing our team doesn't have is alot of designs on the shelf that we can call upon, which is changing. We would like to have a strong swerve drive which we call 'Sidestep' since swerve is pretty much a Delphi patented technology:D
We also want to build a killer tank this summer with a suspension, then onto gear shifting. When done we will have more parts and designs at the begining of each season and pick the best for that year. The previous 2 years had Many problems with reliability, this year we haven't broken anything on the drive yet. So that is why our robot is geared for all out speed and not power or both, hope it helps
Jeff Waegelin
14-04-2002, 10:06
We can get to the goals in 2.5-3 seconds (I'm not entirely sure what the exact time is) with our 9-ft/sec high gear. It takes about another 1-2 seconds to latch on and shift into low gear.
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