REWARD OFFERED: A CAPPED VISION TETRA ON THE CENTER FIELD GOAL [Archive]

Wayne C.

07-03-2005, 21:34

You heard me-

Team 25 Raider Robotix is offering one of our official trophy TIKIS (sans base) to the first programmer of a FIRST team that manages to autonomously find and place a vision tetra on the center goal.

You heard it- you cap it- you prove it- you got it. I'll mail it. Of course this must be in an official FIRST round in an official FIRST event and be recognized as such by having the field referees award the two corner goal tetras as a result.

Don't even talk to me until you actually do it. Close isn't good enough.

I say it can't be done-- Nyeah nyeah!!!!! ;)

WC

:cool:

(BTW- this is NOT a cheap way to clean out our storeroom closet)

Tom Bottiglieri

07-03-2005, 21:36

HA!

That trophy is SOO ours!

I dont know, maybe Mike from 237 has something to say about this??

Bring it on..

Winged Wonder

07-03-2005, 21:39

ooooo... this is interesting...

lets see if someone steps up to the challenge during this week's competitions. =)

Conor Ryan

07-03-2005, 21:45

bonus point if you have it on video!

Mike

07-03-2005, 21:51

Meh, we could do it right now if we had a competition... the thing is that other teams that have competitions sooner then us will be able to do it before us. Maybe a second judging criteria? Like, if you cap at your next competition your entered into a pool. Then the winner is chosen by the fastest cap, cleanest cap, or maybe who had the most percentage of caps to matches.

EDIT: I just got back from a really tiring lacrosse practice, so this may have not made much sense.

Tom Bottiglieri

07-03-2005, 21:53

Stephen Kowski

07-03-2005, 21:54

cleanest cap

EDIT: I just got back from a really tiring lacrosse practice, so this may have not made much sense.

Please define the "cleanest cap"

Mike

07-03-2005, 21:57

Tom: Good point... i'm not sure what could solve that... but it still falls under the "If we had a competition earlier we could've done it" problem
Stephen: I honestly don't know what I meant when I wrote that about... a minute and twenty seconds ago. Maybe like, the less jerkiness of the bot?

AJunx

07-03-2005, 22:08

Additional Reward:

1 Box of Krispy Kreme doughnuts to the programmers of each of the first four teams to cap a vision tetra on the center goal in autonomous at Nationals.

If you think you are going to be in the running in Atlanta, send me a PM or an e-mail before the competition so I can be sure to witness the feat.

-Andrew

Mike

07-03-2005, 22:12

Since I like being cocky... mark me down for one ;)

miketwalker

07-03-2005, 22:15

Make sure you watch Florida regional webcast this weekend. That award would be a nice addition :)

Conor Ryan

07-03-2005, 22:27

But you already had one to practice...

Well i offer a solution, all teams that already were at a competition are ineligable. You must do this at your first competition, unless nobody can do it than it carries over to the next round.

Please define the "cleanest cap"

I'd say that is defined by placing the tetra on a Goal, with out having to tap it so that its one completely. But if this is used, it should be a tie breaker only. I do like the idea of the fastest cap wins. And another tiebreaker would be like Mike said, highest percentage of autonomous vision caps to matches.

Proposed Rules
1. Winner has fastest autonoumous cap at their first competition.
2. First Tie breaker- Highest percentage of autonomous vision caps to matches
3. Second Tie Breaker-Cleanest placement of tetra (see above for definition)

oh and great thing about this set of rules is, you can give them the award directly at the Championship, save on shipping. :D

Mike

07-03-2005, 22:29

Well i offer a solution, all teams that already were at a competition are ineligable. You must do this at your first competition, unless nobody can do it than it carries over to the next round.

Meh, that makes me ineligible, but its fair.

ldeffenb

07-03-2005, 22:38

Make sure you watch Florida regional webcast this weekend. That award would be a nice addition :)

Whoa! That's sounds like some competition! Visit my BitTorrent tracker at http://ldeffenb.dnsalias.net:30049 and download the 20050222 Tetras.torrent. That'd be our Ty-Rap V capping the center in the wee hours of the morning of ship day.

Sounds like there'll be TWO robots to watch for at the Central Florida Regionals. Oh, by the way, this is our FIRST regionals.

Lynn (D) - Team Voltage 386 - Just down the coast from ComBBAT

PS. BitTorrent clients can be found at www.BitTorrent.com or www.BitTornado.com (windows).

Mike

07-03-2005, 22:46

Proposed Rules
1. Winner has fastest autonoumous cap at their first competition.

And what if nobody capped at our first competition? But we were by far the closest.

JohnnyB

07-03-2005, 22:57

I dont think its entirely fair to keep 237 from this "competition"...

The competition was created after the first week. Thusly, the first week should not be considered for eligibility. (Wow I think that qualifies for the weakest arguement ever)

And if you don't buy that, at least give 237 a case of Bawls or something for being the closest of anyone at any regional of week 1 (to my knowledge)

Dan-o

07-03-2005, 23:14

Alright, add 1493 to the list. We have done it in our shop, though we have a much smaller field... like 15' X 15'. I am hoping that our code stands up to the larger field, but I feel that there should be an extra award for the lowest numbered team that accomplishes the feat.

Good luck to everyone, if we don't manage to do it, i really hope someone else does.

slickguy2007

07-03-2005, 23:21

Does it have to be the center goal? Can we cap one of the side goals. Does a practice match count as a real FIRST match? You might as well have said, 1403 show us your autonomous and we shall all praise you.... we accept your challenge. I guarentee you that we will cap it, but i am not sure if it will be the center goal. Their is no need to mail that trophy, just bring it to nj with you......

GO 1403!!!

unapiedra

07-03-2005, 23:31

Yea, this makes it way more interesting!

Good luck and one point for trying

Wayne C.

08-03-2005, 00:41

The original offer stands- first to cap per above gets a TIKI like the ones we use as BE trophies.

No discussion-- wasn't that clear?

I hear lots of talk- but can the bots walk the walk?

Close ain't good enough. If you have a late regional- well better pray nobody beats you to it. Probably not an issue because it can't be done.

How about if all you guys who claim to be able to do it send MY TEAM the donuts if at the end of the Nationals the bet still stands? Big Mike and I sure like those Krispy Kremes.....

WC

:cool:

As for Aroon- I'll bring the TIKI to you personally if you do it. Of course you need to be able to actually reach the center goal -- slap! he he

and for the 237 guys- you can beat out Aroon's team at NJ by doing it first. If you can.......

Remember- an official match, center goal in autonomous as stated above.

Tom Bottiglieri

08-03-2005, 08:21

Ahh, this makes me glad we have a regional this weekend.

The TIKI IS MINE! :D

Steve W

08-03-2005, 08:22

I want a box of KK for predicting that the first team to cap the center goal with a vision tetra will be..................

237

I am in no way associated with 237.

Mike

08-03-2005, 09:44

Is a practice match an "official match"?

EDIT: Yeah... buy 237 a case of bawls!

Mark_Snellman

08-03-2005, 12:01

Whoa! That's sounds like some competition! Visit my BitTorrent tracker at http://ldeffenb.dnsalias.net:30049 and download the 20050222 Tetras.torrent. That'd be our Ty-Rap V capping the center in the wee hours of the morning of ship day.

Sounds like there'll be TWO robots to watch for at the Central Florida Regionals. Oh, by the way, this is our FIRST regionals.

Lynn (D) - Team Voltage 386 - Just down the coast from ComBBAT

PS. BitTorrent clients can be found at www.BitTorrent.com or www.BitTornado.com (windows).

Looks like my mentor shouldn't of posted this because all of your haven't replied which means you are most likely huddleing in fear.

Mark

Elgin Clock

08-03-2005, 12:31

The competition was created after the first week. Thusly, the first week should not be considered for eligibility. (Wow I think that qualifies for the weakest arguement ever)I technically agree, but I am biased. :rolleyes:

However, how about this:

100 points for the team(s) who cap the center at their first official competition (ie: Regional)
90 points for second competition (Regional or Championships)
80 points for third competition (Regional or Championships)
70 for fourth competition (Regional or Championships)
and so on and so on.

This gives everyone a fair chance, and also carries over from weekend to weekend.

So, in our scenario, if someone does not cap this weekend (weekend 2), but two teams cap in weekend 3, then those two teams points are based on how many competitons it took them to do it.
And if 2 or more teams cap this weekend, then you follow the points system by how many events it took them to do it in. (1 or 2).

Sound fair?
<crosses fingers>

Stephen Kowski

08-03-2005, 12:34

jeez two auto cappers @ UCF?....i will be impressed to see it.....

Mark_Snellman

08-03-2005, 12:37

jeez two auto cappers @ UCF?....i will be impressed to see it.....
It's a race to see which of us gets a match first :),, although we have real video of it doing it

Swampdude

08-03-2005, 12:45

jeez two auto cappers @ UCF?....i will be impressed to see it.....

Stephen, by your response I'm guessing nobody from Heatwave told you they could? But from Winged Wonder's earlier response I'm thinking PINK is going for it also, that's one team I wouldn't put it past. But I assumed Heatwave would be all over that challenge. Of coarse combat would get it figured out. Nor MiM or 945 for that matter.

After seeing how the scoring has gone, I think if you had an alliance partner capping in auto during the finals, that could be a really good partner. So UCF might be stacked in the finals. That would be very cool to see 2 go head to head. Although UCF might also become the place where you'll see some defensive auto routines if this is the case ;)

Kevin Sevcik

08-03-2005, 13:03

Is first being measured in local time, absolute time, or match number? If absolute time, it seems like the east coast teams get a large advantage otherwise.

EDIT: Or is this to compensate for the 3 extra hours of build time that west coast teams get?

Greg Marra

08-03-2005, 13:05

It will certainly be heated at regionals to see who can be first to cap in auto.

Wayne C.

08-03-2005, 15:38

[QUOTE=MikeWasHere05]Is a practice match an "official match"?

Do the officals award two corner goal caps for a practice match? I think not.

Do other robots run defense in a practice match? I think not.

As previously stated- this needs to be an OFFICIAL MATCH- that scores points and determines standings. I want to see those corner cap awarding officials need to hustle.

Hmmm- that TIKI is still gathering dust......

WC

:cool:

Mike

08-03-2005, 15:40

Is a practice match an "official match"?

Do the officals award two corner goal caps for a practice match? I think not.

Do other robots run defense in a practice match? I think not.

As previously stated- this needs to be an OFFICIAL MATCH- that scores points and determines standings. I want to see those corner cap awarding officials need to hustle.

Hmmm- that TIKI is still gathering dust......

WC

:cool:
Yes... they do. I'm talking about a match (usually before qualifying) that is a normal game, but doesn't have an effect on standings. So from your last post I'll say no, it doesn't count.

Vin211

08-03-2005, 16:01

I could probably do it but it won't abide by official FIRST Robotics Rules lol! I am a student @ CCSU in Connecticut! Yeeeha!

Jay Trzaskos

08-03-2005, 18:37

I want a box of KK for predicting that the first team to cap the center goal with a vision tetra will be..................

237

I am in no way associated with 237.

I agree... Let's go 237. I want to see you guys cap the vision tetra on the center goal in auto. :D It can be done, it will be done, and I believe TRIBE will be the ones to do it.
JT
229

ThePBoss

08-03-2005, 19:25

Oh man! We did it at school, but had some problems at BAE. See you guys at UTC!

Mark_Snellman

08-03-2005, 20:07

Whoa! That's sounds like some competition! Visit my BitTorrent tracker at http://ldeffenb.dnsalias.net:30049 and download the 20050222 Tetras.torrent. That'd be our Ty-Rap V capping the center in the wee hours of the morning of ship day.

Sounds like there'll be TWO robots to watch for at the Central Florida Regionals. Oh, by the way, this is our FIRST regionals.

Lynn (D) - Team Voltage 386 - Just down the coast from ComBBAT

PS. BitTorrent clients can be found at www.BitTorrent.com or www.BitTornado.com (windows).
Looks like my mentor shouldn't of posted this because all of your haven't replied which means you are most likely huddleing in fear.

Mark

May i repeat myself we (team 386) actually have proof that he have done it in autonomous mode.

Mark

dez250

08-03-2005, 20:14

And i have seen proof that 237 have done it in auton mode also at their practice area multiple times during the build. That is under unchanging light and very few variables, but while at a FIRST comp you have 5 other bots to work with, 8 different locations the tetras can be at and all the lighting and shadows that can be casted on the field. Even with these variables about 85-90% of the time 237 went for it at FLR they were only inches away from capping. I look forward to seeing a video after week 3 of 237 [and maybe others] capping the vision tetra in auton.

Airforce1000

08-03-2005, 21:13

We have a pretty sweet autonomous. If it's webcast on NASA this weekend, watch out for us. ;)

Kyle Love

08-03-2005, 21:19

I graciously accept! :)

ldeffenb

11-03-2005, 21:09

We haven't done the vision yet (we've only had the right tetras a few times), but we did cap the center with the initial tetra during autonomous. I know that doesn't get us the trophy, but it's only a matter of time and statistics.

Lynn (D) - Team Voltage 386 - Central Florida Regionals

PS. Three qualifiers in the morning and then eliminations in the afternoon. We've still got a chance to be first!

Wayne C.

11-03-2005, 21:32

Hieb

11-03-2005, 21:36

Well, 8 rounds down, 4 to go in St. Louis and it doesn't look like any of the few teams here that are trying to use vision are going to do it.

Rich Wong

11-03-2005, 21:45

Week two-
day one past
still no TIKI awarded.
BTW- I was dusting it off yesterday. Its says to me " I wanna go home. Please get me out of this place....."
Of course it could be waiting for the big event to happen next weekend at the NJ Regional - the place where miracles often happen.
Still waiting... :rolleyes:
WC :cool:

So what do we award Team 25 if they successfully complete the challenge? (or what do they want from us when they win the challenge next week at the NJ Regional!).
:D

Wayne C.

11-03-2005, 22:00

So what do we award Team 25 if they successfully complete the challenge? (or what do they want from us when they win the challenge next week at the NJ Regional!).
:D

Rich- that isn't even our strategy.. We think a good PARTNER will be a great capper and a workhorse defender.

Just suppose you could find the loader tetra and cap with that in autonomous.. say maybe once... or twice.....

Might be a real help to the guy who CAN get the vision tetra...

And it is very doubtful that anybody will be pushing us away from any goals we decide to "inhibit"

Can't wait till next weekend....

WC :cool:

Jeremy.245

12-03-2005, 17:39

TEAM 66 HAS DONE IT THE COMP IS OVER.....THEY DID IT AT THE YPSI REGIONAL...THE WINNING ALLIANCE WAS TEAMS 66 67 68 AND TEAM 66 CAPPED THE VISION ON THE SIDE GOAL

Jeremy.245

12-03-2005, 17:40

now as a side note this WAS on the side goal not the center

slickguy2007

12-03-2005, 17:43

TEAM 66 HAS DONE IT THE COMP IS OVER.....THEY DID IT AT THE YPSI REGIONAL...THE WINNING ALLIANCE WAS TEAMS 66 67 68 AND TEAM 66 CAPPED THE VISION ON THE SIDE GOAL

now as a side note this WAS on the side goal not the center

Congratulations to team 66, but I think the bet was that you had to cap the ceter goal.... Great job though!!!

GO 1403!!!

Mike

12-03-2005, 17:57

TEAM 66 HAS DONE IT THE COMP IS OVER.....THEY DID IT AT THE YPSI REGIONAL...THE WINNING ALLIANCE WAS TEAMS 66 67 68 AND TEAM 66 CAPPED THE VISION ON THE SIDE GOAL
If im not wrong, wasn't this in a practice match?

ajlapp

12-03-2005, 18:07

nope, they did it during the finals..........

it was quite impressive, they actually acquired the tetra almost everytime, and came close to scoring it on more than one occassion.

Mike

12-03-2005, 18:08

nope, they did it during the finals..........

it was quite impressive, they actually acquired the tetra almost everytime, and came close to scoring it on more than one occassion.
Ahh, good job :D

pathew100

12-03-2005, 18:09

They did cap in competition as well, in the semi-finals! It was a side goal.

They also came close a couple times in the elims to getting the center goal.

Congrats to 66 for being the first team to cap the vision tetra in autonomous! And congrats to 66, 67, 68 for being the winning alliance!

Sscamatt

12-03-2005, 18:26

Anyone have a video of team 66 capping? I'd love to see it. :)

cfox2008

12-03-2005, 18:52

Yep, 66 did, and i think they either capped a side one or came pretty close in the finals against 1023, 322, and 308

psych0gambit

12-03-2005, 19:33

darn, we dont have autonomous mode and we cant pick up stuff on the floor so no....wait we do have autonomous but still we cant pick up from the floor.

Wayne C.

12-03-2005, 20:03

FIRST- congratulations to team 66 for finding the vision tetra and capping on the side goal. It is a great accomplishment. Great job....

Ok- Now do it on the CENTER GOAL....

you know the BIG one ?

I know- I know- You all are just holding off so that SieH2OBots can do it at NJ, our home regional. That's so nice of all of you. True GP.

I think I'll pack the TIKI with our pit stuff and bring it to our regionals starting with NJ this week. Then at least it can SEE some other teams.....

Two weeks down- close but no cigar.
;)

WC :cool:

Greg Marra

12-03-2005, 20:08

We got our camera working the last two matches. The robot drove to the tetras, but something wasn't working right so it stopped autonomous to avoid breaking things. (We have error checking code to avoid burning the FPs).

Maybe in Philly?

team66t-money

12-03-2005, 20:18

ldeffenb

12-03-2005, 21:58

so far i think we are the only ones to even place a tetra on any goal if not please pm me i would love to find out who else figured it out we spent 3 weeks doing (not easy what so ever) but hey yeah once again thanks to all for all the support.

Team 386 came really really close to doing the center numerous times at the Central Florida Regionals, but always had something come up. We threw the initial tetra into the mix, and almost put *BOTH* of them on in auto. We've got the moves, and with a new tilt sprocket and replaced lift motor, it just could happen the first time for us in Atlanta.

I'll be scaring up some video of how close we came (man, driving 22 feet and ending where you want it is nigh on impossible!) so watch this space.

Lynn (D) - Team Voltage 386 Software & Coach

Shu Song

12-03-2005, 22:50

w00t!

congratz to team 66!

Does anyone have this on video? I'd love to see it.

Brandon Holley

13-03-2005, 00:10

Wayne - watch for team 11 at NJ ;)

JonBell

13-03-2005, 09:19

First off from being a member of team66 thanks to all with the support for our alliance during the semi finals and finals we went 6-0 no loses it was so great and congrats to all who received a award today at glr. thanks to 67,68 we were a great alliance also we did cap 3 times in practice on Thursday and once today in the finals i know ya said close isn't good enough but it wasn't really on all the way but it was on (center) our main problem was they changed the camera code on us and decided not to tell us but before the semi finals we figured it out but once again we came this close () from getting the center all the way on so far i think we are the only ones to even place a tetra on any goal if not please pm me i would love to find out who else figured it out we spent 3 weeks doing (not easy what so ever) but hey yeah once again thanks to all for all the support.

Not quite using the vision tetras, but...
At our regional, two teams (Elm City and Shelton) had "lifter" bots (one had a scissor lift, the other just had a long pivoting platform). They found that if they could start with the extra tetra (or whatever it's called), they could simply orient themselves towards the side goal, and then in autonomous they just had to push it on to the goal. If they brought it down with enough force it would also knock off the hanging tetra (a 4 point play!), and this worked pretty much every time.

Our bot uses a fairly inarticulate arm, so it wouldn't be very feasible for us to do a similar move, but instead we just always start facing the side, and can always knock down the hanging tetra for 1 point. It probably wouldn't be much harder to pick it up after we knocked it down, back up, and place it back on the side goal, all using dead reckoning. I didn't think of this until we were in the semi-finals though, so I didn't have time to try it at our regional.

I didn't watch all of the matches, so I can't say that no one capped the vision tetras, but 230 (shelton) and elm-city were both pretty sweet with their 4 point plays.

So the moral of the story?
Perhaps dead reckoning and using the hanging tetras would be easier than relying on the camera?

team66t-money

13-03-2005, 10:09

Yep, 66 did, and i think they either capped a side one or came pretty close in the finals against 1023, 322, and 308

Hey as a member of team 66 i just wanted to say you guys did a great job yesterday and wish you the best of luck in your next comp. and i heard many great things about your train that was going all through the comp. Travis

Pin Man

13-03-2005, 12:22

so how many times has this task been accomplished? I have yet to see it...

Mike

13-03-2005, 12:40

so how many times has this task been accomplished? I have yet to see it...
So far just by Team 66.

Ductapemaster05

13-03-2005, 13:28

I must ask if capping without the vision system in autonomous and just by using a preset program

Wayne C.

15-03-2005, 23:05

Week 3 is UPON US.

THe TIKI STILL AWAITS

Will the miracle happen at NJ?

WC :cool:

Andy Baker

16-03-2005, 01:16

Week 3 is UPON US.
THe TIKI STILL AWAITS
Will the miracle happen at NJ?

WC :cool:

possibly... however...

There are some stellar teams who have not played yet this year. A few of them are going to be in West Lafayette, Indiana at the Inaugural Boilermaker Regional. I'll bet a Dew that someone from the Boilermaker Regional caps a vision tetra on the center goal in automode.

I'll take one bet. I say it happens in Indiana. You say it won't. First PM to me accepting this bet gets it.

Andy B.

Validius

16-03-2005, 21:12

And what if nobody capped at our first competition? But we were by far the closest.

carefull... team 66 did that at GLR

Mike

18-03-2005, 21:12

We just capped a side goal today, with the right placement tomorrow the tiki will be ours.

russell

18-03-2005, 22:29

So that makes two teams now? Congratulations to those teams, I am impressed.
But seriously, FIRST calls itself a "robotics" competition, yet only two teams so far have managed to even come close to accomplishing the most vaunted element of this years game...... I do have to say I was also *very* impressed by 492s performance last week in Portland. Their autonomous was awesome! I was the leader of our drive team and pit crew and also our programmer, so I was occupied during autonomous, drive, and pit time, but I do know that when they were on our alliance in a practice match I watched their robot drive out and grab an autoloader tetra, then come back and place it perfectly on the corner goal. Plus they won the regional. In any case congrats to any team that does any tetra handling in autonomous!

Babyhueyhnx

18-03-2005, 23:13

we have come close so many times today. unfortunately we did not cap the center because of some unfortunate events. First we got the tet and then began tracking a yellow line of tape laid down on the field by first to repair the floor and second the same thing happened but this time it tracked a yellow extension cord out side of the field. we have come so close. we will succeed by tomorrow. (I hope)

ldeffenb

19-03-2005, 09:26

He says, as if in a trance, "I see the Tiki moving off to another team" and sighs deeply.

I would love to see video of these "close" shots at the center goal! Especially those that followed the wrong yellow! Having stood as coach (and head of the software group) and watched our own lift backdrive at the final crucial moment, I can certainly identify with how you felt.

If you'd like to see videos of two *very* close attempts at the center goal with a vision tetra (along with the initial tetra!), download "20050312 Vision Tetras.torrent" from my BitTorrent tracker at http://ldeffenb.dnsalias.net:30049. Remember, this was our first and ONLY regional competition (we're not a rich team).

We have a camera on board, have code to identify all 8 possibilities from each of the three starting points, drive paths to acquire and deliver those tetras to the center (and, in some cases side) goals, only to discover that our drive and lift were slow enough that we only had a chance at delivering the center 2 positions to the center goal.

That's when we decided to use the motion to handle the initial tetra as well (hey, 3 points and owning the center in autonomous is better than 0 points looking like a sitting duck). (Want to watch painful replays? Download "20050310-12 386 Auto SloMo.mpg.torrent" for slow motion reruns of all of our automous runs. They'll make any software team cry from the effort wasted when software meets hard(ware) reality!)

We now know that we're tilting too far towards the goal and that our lift motor backdrives (watch closely in QF4-2) and those problems will be corrected in Atlanta. If no one does it before that, it'll be a race to the finish as far as Team Voltage 386 is concerned!

We *will* do it (vision tetra onto center goal) in Atlanta!

Lynn (D) - Team Voltage 386 Coach and Software Mentor

PS. Download a BitTorrent client at www.BitTorrent.com or www.BitTornado.com (Windoze only).

ldeffenb

19-03-2005, 09:42

If you'd like to browse vision tetra driving plans, I've posted our Triple Play Autonomous Route Visualizer (TriPlay) to BitTorrent at http://ldeffenb.dnsalias.net:30049. Download "TriPlay.zip.torrent" which should deliver a .zip file containing TriPlay.exe. This is a Windows GUI executable written in C and talking to the native Win32 API, so don't be surprised at how small it is. The same source code also builds and runs on a PocketPC.

Once run, it shows the Triple Play field. You can click on initial robot positions and goals and tetras to see what all our robot actually knows how to do in autonomous mode. The center line is if everything works and the two outer lines are what happens if we push min and max tolerances on distances and turns. The robot ends at the green rectangle with turns and/or stops at the intervening yellow rectangles.

If you click on an auto feeder and the corresponding home-row corner goal, you'll see that we know how to do that from any starting point as well.

Problem is, with all of this software design and implementation, the robot isn't fast enough. Sigh....

Lynn (D) - Team Voltage 386 Coach and Software Mentor

PS. The .EXE is virus/worm free as far as I know. Run it through your own scanners as I'm not responsible for anything that might happen to it between me and you.

PPS. If someone *really* wants to see the source (it's grungy and wasn't written for readability), drop me a PM and I'll send it out *after* Atlanta!

Aur0r4

20-03-2005, 00:08

Ah, the vision tetra. Depending on how the rules for the reward have worked out, we might not get the tetra first chronologically (we're in Toronto). But, my R&D team and I have spent a most of our lives over the build season putting together a rad vision system. What have you all gotten to work? We ditched the FIRST camera and now have a webcam and motherboard on our bot. We've been trying to find out if any other teams have gotten the cam2 to work. We wish you all good luck. May the best system win, eh.

Wayne C.

20-03-2005, 00:28

Another week down and still the central goal goes uncapped......

But recognition to 237 for their several EXTREMELY close attempts at NJ today.

We gave them a "partial tiki" for their close calls.

But the TIKI still awaits.

Keep trying.

WC

:cool:

psquared89

20-03-2005, 00:36

RoboCat05

20-03-2005, 02:58

The Las Vegas regional is still around the corner. There will be teams like team 60 and 64 to watch for.

Daniel Brim

20-03-2005, 03:40

The Las Vegas regional is still around the corner. There will be teams like team 60 and 64 to watch for.
From what I've heard, neither of them used the camera at Phoenix.

Joe Domingo

21-03-2005, 06:00

JohnBoucher

21-03-2005, 06:48

Here is a different look at 237 capping side goal
http://www.team237.com/videos/237cap.MOV

Francis-134

21-03-2005, 09:21

Wow, great job 237 and everyone else who has managed to do the "impossible". I hope someone manages to get it done by the Nationals

Flem

21-03-2005, 19:50

I saw team 66 cap a side-center goal 4 seperate times (twice during practice, twice during the elimination matches) at the Great Lakes Regional in autonomous. They went on to win the whole thing with team 67 and 68. (kind of funny how that worked out.)

**Oops, excuse the rudundancy. :rolleyes:

Wayne C.

21-03-2005, 22:04

Can you post a picture of the Tiki?
We want to make room for it after this coming week end in San Jose.

Gee Joe-
you think room would be a problem? Better dust off that trophy shelf then. At least it will be clean after the nationals.

WC :rolleyes:

Tom Bottiglieri

21-03-2005, 22:07

Can you post a picture of the Tiki?
We want to make room for it after this coming week end in San Jose.
Better get the gorilla glue..

Oh wait, did I say something?

the_short1

22-03-2005, 12:04

TEAM 66 has the BEST autom ive seen..

it can track a vision tetra and i seen it cap a side goal (middle right)

.. its awsome!

www.team66.com

we played with them in the GREAT LAKES REGIONAL .. good team i say.. and hope to play against them in NATIONALS !

Elgin Clock

22-03-2005, 14:39

TEAM 66 has the BEST autom ive seen..

it can track a vision tetra and i seen it cap a side goal (middle right)

.. its awsome!

www.team66.com (http://www.team66.com/)

we played with them in the GREAT LAKES REGIONAL .. good team i say.. and hope to play against them in NATIONALS !
Is there a video of one of the stacks heard round the world on that site?
I can't seem to locate it.
Am I blind?

Joe Domingo

23-03-2005, 16:24

Gee Joe-
you think room would be a problem? Better dust off that trophy shelf then. At least it will be clean after the nationals.

WC :rolleyes:
I guess I was asking for that!
I want to know what happens if someone on the east coast wins the "Tiki" on match 38 and on the west coast someone does this on match 18 .
This is because of time difference. Will you give the award to the one who does it FIRST taking this in consideration?

Wetzel

23-03-2005, 17:26

Just because no one's mentioned it: At Detriot, not a single team (that I saw, and I was looking) even bothered hunting for, let alone pick up, a vision tetra. On to week 4. Personally I'm surprised that 71 or 111 haven't come through yet, but they'll both be at Chicago, won't that be fun?

The same thing happened at Annapolis, I didn't see any attempts at getting the vision tetras. I did see a robot grab a hanging tetra and cap with that though.

Wetzel

Wayne C.

23-03-2005, 20:34

I guess I was asking for that!
I want to know what happens if someone on the east coast wins the "Tiki" on match 38 and on the west coast someone does this on match 18 .
This is because of time difference. Will you give the award to the one who does it FIRST taking this in consideration?

I doubt this will be a problem but if it is we go with the first to do it in real EST time. Therefore it definitely benefits all of you to participate in the East Coast Regionals (hint: like NJ ) where these supposed miracles would happen first.

But I'm not worrying about giving up that TIKI any time soon......

As for Gorilla Glue...... well they do have a bit of an adhesion problem at times

WC

:cool:

Aur0r4

24-03-2005, 23:42

Watch for team 1058 in Toronto. We plan on putting a lid on all this. Also, whats the update on the Krispy Kremes? That offer still hot?

Wayne C.

26-03-2005, 17:32

Well? The season is winding down-

did anybody cap that center goal yet?

WC
:cool:

phrozen solyd

27-03-2005, 01:01

Keep an eye on 980 - they capped the high goal in autonomous with the vision tetra on the practice field at SVR, but they didn't do it on the competition field. They got pretty close a couple times on Thursday, though.

Michael Hill

27-03-2005, 02:00

I believe 111 was able to grab the vision tetra during the finals in Chicago, but they did not cap.

Mike

27-03-2005, 09:58

I'd be willing to bet that this will be done during the championship.

Dr.Bot

27-03-2005, 10:26

Team 971 made a couple of attempts at SVR, and got close to picking up the
vision tetra a couple of times. Part of the problem was their camera got smashed early Friday, so they only actually had the camera working for about 4 or 5 matches. (In a act of gracious professionalism, another local team not at SVR, donated their camera, and a mentor drove across town Friday to get it.)

According to conversation I had with the team members, they could cap a center goal in practice, but only in 19 to 20 seconds. Fifteen was just too short a time interval. Another note two of the team members on 971 (and the ones responsible for programming) are FLL graduates, and have been involved since 2000.

If any one does this at Nats, it will be great, but the refs probably will be dumbfounded about awarding the bonus tetras, since nobody has any experience in this area!

Bill Moore

27-03-2005, 11:27

Considering the amount of time it takes to locate the tetra, properly grasp it, locate the center goal and raise your arm to get it capped, FIRST probably didn't allow enough time for this to be an effective form of scoring. There are too many other strategies that can be played in 15 seconds that are not as time intensive. If autonomous lasted longer, say 30 seconds, then more teams would have been forced to address the capping vision tetras in autonomous.

Wayne C.

27-03-2005, 13:21

I guess you guys reinforce my point. The 15 seconds is probably too short to find and cap the middle goal. SieH2OBots got VERY close at NJ- about 6 inches to the right!!

But the task is a shot in the dark.

My guys looked at the effort required for the reward gained when we planned our game this season and didn't see the benefit of it.

Maybe someone will prove me wrong. See y'all in Atlanta

WC
:cool:

Goldeye

27-03-2005, 13:41

694 tried it before shipping the bot. Our main trouble was poor lighting in our test environment - we had to use red instead of yellow as goal targets, and even then we had trouble seeing what we wanted to. Between that, drive train changes and other things, the numbers we tried to drive with weren't working any more, there were quirks in our tetra-seeking and color switching methods...and not enough time to get it working straight. And there was certainly not enough time to fix it at the regionals. However, the bot would have been fast enough to do it within the 15 seconds. A fast drive train and fast arm is all you need :/ we had both. It just hapened that the bots that were fast enough to do it weren't the ones trying to use the camera.

Mike

27-03-2005, 13:50

My guys looked at the effort required for the reward gained when we planned our game this season and didn't see the benefit of it.

That's true, we could've made ours cap a side goal and knock down the hanging tetra during autonomous. It would work waaaaaay more consistently then capping. But we didn't. The US could always land a man on the moon, so why don't we just keep on going there? After all, we could do it every time :). So why are we trying to go to Mars? It's because it's bigger, better, and bolder. Doing what nearly no other team can do, and defying all those who say it can't be done. That reward is a lot more than 9 points.

Termite233

29-03-2005, 19:30

I'm pretty sure 233 could try...meaning I think we have an autonomous program for this...but I know we've never used it...I think it's mostly that everyone is afraid it won't work... :cool:

funstuff

03-04-2005, 00:43

During the Lone Star Regional in one of the qualifying matches, Team 624 CRyptonite was able to pick up and place a vision tetra on the center goal using the camera. However, the tetra did not fall into place and was not counted. From what I have heard, this is the closest anyone has come to capping the center goal in a qualifying match. We were the only team at the Lone Star to use the vision system. (I would like to note that it was occasionally distracted by the yellow and black caution tape that was around the gates onto the field.)

I would really like to thank our two student programmers Jesse and Shaon for doing all of the code. They're awesome.

Dan Richardson

03-04-2005, 01:50

Yeah that cap was amasing.. it was completely square to the goal.. I was soo upset it didn't fall on the goal, they also almost called the side goals a bunch of times.

We were really pulling for you, I'm almost certain if you were able to attend nationals you would have gotten that tiki trophy.. Someone should really post a picture of how it was.

Dan

Lost_Era

03-04-2005, 08:30

At the Palmetto Regional, Team 281 came almost as close to capping the vision tetra on the center goal in autonomous. We had the tetra over the goal but drove a bit too far, and when we hit the goal, the tetra bounced off and fell on the other side. We are still hoping to do it at Nationals.

RubberDucky

03-04-2005, 15:19

My team (854) came very close at the Toronto Canada Regional, I am not sure but I think we were the only team at the Waterloo Regional and Toronto Regional using the camera, but at the Toronto one we missed by like 1-2 inches. It hit the top of the center goal but fell off when our robot backed up.

thoughtful

03-04-2005, 15:26

JoeXIII'007

04-04-2005, 16:34

i would say there are about 6 teams that have a realistic possibility of doing this at the nationals. However, these Brilliant teams also need a tad of luck at thier side to accomplish this in the 15 seconds. I think that the probability that we see this happen at the nationals is 0.167. ;)

Luck, hope, prayer, and a lot of support. Optimism is mandatory, for it is that which usually makes it happen. Don't lose it.

Wayne C.

04-04-2005, 18:22

Well- the regionals are all over- over 30 tournaments and still no capped center goal.

Am I taunting?- yeah maybe a little.

I've seen several VERY close tries. Its pretty amazing to watch.

I'm surprised nobody has drop down guides to center the robot on the middle goal when they go to place.

Of course once you get it on there for 9 pts. you need to make sure you don't get a 10 pt deduction for some silly penalty.

In any case, the offer still stands. The TIKI is waiting. And the Championship is just days away.

WC

:cool:

FDAapproved

04-04-2005, 18:56

We were really pulling for you, I'm almost certain if you were able to attend nationals you would have gotten that tiki trophy.. Someone should really post a picture of how it was. I believe someone got a picture of our cap somewhere in the forum, the plank of spray painted wood kept the tetra from falling into place, but it was close enough to make our team go crazy with joy, espically our head teacher....(hehe) I am very proud of our programers

(I would like to note that it was occasionally distracted by the yellow and black caution tape that was around the gates onto the field.) Although we are sure that this was a distraction to the camera, we are now debating if it is reasonable (and legal) to request for the removal of the tape (maybe a substitute could be put down?) The removal of the tape could be the deciding factor for any team at nationals that is using the camera and we want them to have the best chance to make history!

dradius

04-04-2005, 19:56

I believe someone got a picture of our cap somewhere in the forum, the plank of spray painted wood kept the tetra from falling into place, but it was close enough to make our team go crazy with joy, espically our head teacher....(hehe) I am very proud of our programers

Although we are sure that this was a distraction to the camera, we are now debating if it is reasonable (and legal) to request for the removal of the tape (maybe a substitute could be put down?) The removal of the tape could be the deciding factor for any team at nationals that is using the camera and we want them to have the best chance to make history!

the deal at the houston regional occured when i asked the head referee (northumberland) before the beginning of our match. he said that it had been there the entire time and nothing could be done about it--at the time, true. however, in future competitions, i feel it can be argued that the caution tape, though a safety-cautious and necessary part of the playing arena, is not part of the playable playing field. thus, it poses a distinct distraction for the robot which itself alone cannot accomodate for. because of this, there are potential problems for robots who, in normal curcumstances, using the camera, would have little issue tracking.

i think a possible change in caution tape color should be an appropriate accomodation for those who need it, or possibly covering that one line of tape that is in direct contact with the tip of the loading ramp. realistically, it doesnt change anything for the non-camera-using robots, but poses a significant threat and possible malfunction for those who strive for optimum use of the onboard vision system.

FDAapproved

04-04-2005, 20:05

however, in future competitions, i feel it can be argued that the caution tape, though a safety-cautious and necessary part of the playing arena, is not part of the playable playing field.
Very true, If the tape isn't included as a necessary part of the field, it is an accessory for safety and there shouldn't be any reason against replacing it with a different color tape.
If only we had thought of that before the regional started. :rolleyes:

Beta Version

04-04-2005, 22:39

ldeffenb

05-04-2005, 07:56

by the way, if you want to see a video of 624 capping the goal, and another close atteempt at the houston regional, you can watch it at our site, www.cryptoniterobotics.com (you can also see me and my awesome human-player skills)

Thanks for the videos! I know that our team would have gone absolutely nuts (along with the crowd) at Central Florida Regionals if we had been *that* close!

Great Job! Looking forward to seeing one or more of us actuallyl do this multiple times in Atlanta (assuming you're able to compete there!).

Lynn (D) - Team Voltage 386 Software Mentor and Coach - Two Reasons to *REALLY* want a Vision Cap!

team1102a

05-04-2005, 09:28

There were no Autonomous vision tetra caps at Palmetto. I was the announcer, and I would have remembered such a feat. We had some contenders, however.

Team 281 (EnTech) has a program to drive straight forward with the arm out and then lift whatever it might have nabbed and place it on the center goal.

At Palmetto, they got a vision tetra at least twice. The first time they got it over the goal, and were about foot to the left the second time. They did not complete the cap either time.

342 can cap with a starting tetra in autonomous mode. I think they did it twice at Palmetto.

Joe Johnson

05-04-2005, 10:08

When I saw the kickoff, I was excited.
When I read the documentation, I was nervous.
When I saw 66 at GLR, I was hopeful.
When I saw a mere shadow of a speaker high in the air doom 66 at WMR, I despaired.
Given the translucent roof of the Georgia Dome and the vagaries of sun position, cloud cover, etc. I predict there will be no team that caps 2 matches in a row and no team will cap the center goal, period.

I WANTED there to be cappers at the Championships, but it is just too hard given hardware, software and timing the constraints teams are under.

Early in week 1, I predicted at most 5 Vision-based capping teams at the Championships... ...sadly, I now think this was too optimistic.

Calling 'em as I see 'em...

Joe J.

Dave Flowerday

05-04-2005, 12:41

I WANTED there to be cappers at the Championships, but it is just too hard given hardware, software and timing the constraints teams are under.
What really concerns me is that they really did give us good tools this year. Our team has the camera working extremely well. It tracks with amazing reliability both green and yellow. Our primary difficulty is in our robot's design which requires us to approach the tetra from the side, parallel to one of the tetra sides (think about that one for a while... it's really difficult!), and the fact that our practice robot and real robot don't behave the same. Like I suspect is the case for many other teams, our practice robot has capped the center goal dozens of times.

I think this is something FIRST needs to think about. They gave us great tools this year for autonomous, yet basically no one can do it (even if a few manage to make it happen at the championships, it's still essentially 0%). The only way we're going to see better looking autonomous modes in the future is if they can find some way to give the software guys on all these teams some time to work with their real robot. Just like every other team I'm sure, our software team only had a day or two to work with our completed "shipping" robot. If every team had had an additional week to work on software for their competition robot, I think we'd see more capping happen.

I wonder if it would ever be possible for FIRST to add a rule allowing teams to keep their robots for an extra week but only allow software to work on it? Unfortunately, this is probably too unenforceable and would leave a large opportunity for abuse, and would extend the build season which a lot of people are (rightfully) opposed to. Unfortunately I just don't see how else autonomous modes can improve. Anyone have ideas?

Tom Bottiglieri

05-04-2005, 12:55

Chris Hibner

05-04-2005, 13:41

The only way we're going to see better looking autonomous modes in the future is if they can find some way to give the software guys on all these teams some time to work with their real robot. Just like every other team I'm sure, our software team only had a day or two to work with our completed "shipping" robot. If every team had had an additional week to work on software for their competition robot, I think we'd see more capping happen.

I agree with you, Dave. The time constraint WAS too short when all we had to worry about was operator control. Now it's WAAAAYYY too short. I was just thinking the other day about how much different things are now with autonomous control. We now have 3 times as many people working on controls than we used to have before there was an autonomous portion of the game.

One possible comprimise is to give teams the control systems and sensors one or two months in advance. If we had that extra time to work with the camera, I'm sure we would be capping vision tetras in autonomous. We decided that the time wouldn't allow it so we went with a more tried and true autonomous method.

PURPLE!

05-04-2005, 14:03

Want to know something really sad? The conversation that started with FDAapproved and went on with Dradius and BetaVersion most likley happened when they were in the same room during study hall. (Yes we have a robotics study hall). e_e they may be arguing on the fourms but the would be sitting right next to eachother in the classroom....

Lost_Era

05-04-2005, 14:26

The reason team 281 decided just to try to cap the center (whether there was a tetra or not) is simply because we didn't believe we would have time to do otherwise. We do have code to use the camera and pick up and deliver either of the "close" tetras from any starting position, but, because of time constraints, we decided not to use it. We also determined the odds of a tetra being in one of the two spots in front of the center starting position to be 13/28.

Dave Flowerday

05-04-2005, 15:12

One possible comprimise is to give teams the control systems and sensors one or two months in advance. If we had that extra time to work with the camera, I'm sure we would be capping vision tetras in autonomous. We decided that the time wouldn't allow it so we wen't with a more tried and true autonomous method.
That's a really good point. I'm not sure it would have made the difference for our team, but I'm sure it would have helped out a lot of other teams if they had had the camera ahead of time and had already "trained" it to follow objects. Plus, you'd know up front (at the beginning of the build season) what it's capabilities were and therefore have a better idea of whether or not it's worth pursuing. I don't think it'll solve the problem but it would be a big step in the right direction.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/s...2&highlight=FPG

This wont give programmers anymore time with the bot, but if they dont have to debug all the systems or worry about fixing problems in their custom code, they can spend more time tweaking the real bot for competetion.
That's a decent idea, but I just don't think it'll solve the problem. No matter how well the code is written or how early, when it comes down to it you always need time on the actual hardware (i.e. competition robot) to test it, and I think that is the limiting factor for most teams. As it stands, the mechanical groups will take up nearly every minute of build time getting the robot designed and built (and they need it, too!). Unless there is some way to guarantee the software people time to test and debug their code on the competition robot I just don't see autonomous improving much from what we've seen in the last few years.

dradius

05-04-2005, 15:17

I agree with you, Dave. The time constraint WAS too short when all we had to worry about was operator control. Now it's WAAAAYYY too short. I was just thinking the other day about how much different things are now with autonomous control. We now have 3 times as many people working on controls than we used to have before there was an autonomous portion of the game.

One possible comprimise is to give teams the control systems and sensors one or two months in advance. If we had that extra time to work with the camera, I'm sure we would be capping vision tetras in autonomous. We decided that the time wouldn't allow it so we went with a more tried and true autonomous method.

not to be rude, but our most difficult thing to program was the camera. we literally spent 3 or so weeks, working every day out at oceaneering, to get the camera to track correctly. at that time, we hadnt finished the robot, and had more or so created an assembly line where the pieces of the robot came together close to the end (besides the tranny and drive frame). there was, therefore, enough time. it just had to be managed properly (not to be rude or haughty, like i said).

not to mention, think of it this way: this year WAS the "practice" chance to utilize the camera on the robot. you now have the software and hardware to accomplish the task during the summer or even sooner on a previous robot (or this one if you get it back and arent going to nationals). the first year of infrared was ridiculous, and, in a sense, so was last year. they canned it for that reason. THIS, however, is well designed and only takes the right programming to get it to work (what a statement). once the code is perfected, it works every time. the infrared wasnt reliable in that sense. considering that, you have the time now and later--you could even order another camera. we did.

PURPLE!

05-04-2005, 18:52

not to be rude, but our most difficult thing to program was the camera. we literally spent 3 or so weeks, working every day out at oceaneering, to get the camera to track correctly. at that time, we hadnt finished the robot, and had more or so created an assembly line where the pieces of the robot came together close to the end (besides the tranny and drive frame). there was, therefore, enough time. it just had to be managed properly (not to be rude or haughty, like i said).

not to mention, think of it this way: this year WAS the "practice" chance to utilize the camera on the robot. you now have the software and hardware to accomplish the task during the summer or even sooner on a previous robot (or this one if you get it back and arent going to nationals). the first year of infrared was ridiculous, and, in a sense, so was last year. they canned it for that reason. THIS, however, is well designed and only takes the right programming to get it to work (what a statement). once the code is perfected, it works every time. the infrared wasnt reliable in that sense. considering that, you have the time now and later--you could even order another camera. we did.

of cource, he ALSO dosn't mention that, although when we praticed at ocenearing our ato. mode worked very well. Unfortunatly... we used the wrong shade of green on the tetras XD...

Dr.Bot

05-04-2005, 19:35

It seems most people are in agreement - the cost/benefit/risk of capping a vision tetra just wasn't there. If some team actually was consistent in doing this, it would just be too easy to counter-program a robot to drive out to the center goal and block. Also it is a lot easier to have your entire alliance get programmed to capture the entire home row in autonomous. - All that being said I am surprised that there weren't more teams using the cameras in a stealthy way, using it to position the robot near the loading zone or using it to score the non-vision tetra in autonomous. I am expecting (hoping) that some of you will be thinking up some unconventional tricks to use the cameras to your advantage. In such a competitive game starting out with a lead is a lot better than trying to come from behind.

Also - this was the first year of using the FIRST CMU Cam - I think in Botball, they have been using a camera for at least three years. I don't think anyone in botball was very successful using the camera the first year either. Their sophistication took some time to develop. I understand from a friend involved in botball that the first version of the software they had really didn't do the job, and it took a lot of work to get the sub-routines right in order to track objects of different colors. It seems the hue-saturation model works better than R-G-B - but I am not an expert in this area.

Good Luck all, see ya in Atlanta.

iamnafets

05-04-2005, 19:48

Thanks to Lynn (D) of 386 for hosting a Bittorrent tracker of our video. A link is off of his site or ours, I know I've got our server seeding it right now so if you need it fast, we got you covered :). Thanks Lynn, much appreciated gracious professionalism at work at your team for sure.

Dave Scheck

05-04-2005, 20:00

using it to position the robot near the loading zoneJust for the sake of argument, why bother if you can do it without the camera? This type of use can be compared to the IR beacons of 2004...it becomes an extra complexity for something that can be done using a sensor or time based system. The only way that I see to incorporate the camera, in this example, is to use it to double check where you are.

On a similar note, one problem that I'm sure people found, is that with the current color models, the camera sees blue the same as green. Granted, this can be compensated for (i.e. determining the size of the object), but once again it adds additional complexity.

I'm not saying that using the CMU Cam is necessarilly a good/bad thing, I just think that it, like many things, has its application. In most cases you wouldn't use a limit switch to measure angular rotation, you'd most likely use an encoder or pot. Its all about choosing the right and/or most efficient tool for the job.

Wetzel

05-04-2005, 23:07

Just for the sake of argument, why bother if you can do it without the camera? This type of use can be compared to the IR beacons of 2004...it becomes an extra complexity for something that can be done using a sensor or time based system. The only way that I see to incorporate the camera, in this example, is to use it to double check where you are.

On a similar note, one problem that I'm sure people found, is that with the current color models, the camera sees blue the same as green. Granted, this can be compensated for (i.e. determining the size of the object), but once again it adds additional complexity.

I'm not saying that using the CMU Cam is necessarilly a good/bad thing, I just think that it, like many things, has its application. In most cases you wouldn't use a limit switch to measure angular rotation, you'd most likely use an encoder or pot. Its all about choosing the right and/or most efficient tool for the job.

One team at Annapolis used both mag induction sensors and the camera to tell when they were lined up with the goals. They had two of the mag sensors on the low front of the robot to "see" the metal of the goal base. They used the camera to see the yellow triangle in the middle of the goal.

I really wish I could remember the team number, their system was so nifty, and their tetra loader was so simple. They were at the DC scrimage too.(Maybe Dave can help me out)

Wetzel

dradius

06-04-2005, 01:48

Whoa, thats actually a pretty neat idea. see, we never really got the chance or the ability to test out and utilize other sensors on our robot. that would have been awesome, and possibly eliminated the "seeing" of the caution tape on the side of the field. hmm....must experiment!

Dave Scheck

06-04-2005, 10:31

One team at Annapolis used both mag induction sensors and the camera to tell when they were lined up with the goals.That's sounds like a pretty neat system. Was it used in autonomous, or did they use it in driver control with some type of feedback?

By no means was I trying imply that the use of the camera was a bad thing, I was just trying to get the idea out there that I think that it is good for certain applications and unnecessary for others.

Wetzel

06-04-2005, 13:32

I don't know about autonomous, but they did use it for driver feedback. Their loader just an arm that rotated upwards, and as it went past vertical the tetra fell onto the goal. That made it important for them to be lined up with the goal, and they had two different sensor systems to verify that.

I'll do some looking and see if I can't find the team number or a picture of the robot.

{Edit}
I found a picture, but no team number.
http://www.invisiblerobot.com/robotics/robot_c43e/q2190029.jpg
The mag sensors are the black and yellow boxes down low in front, and you can see the camera near the top in the middle. Their arm just pivots around the shoulder joint and drops a tetra on top of the goal. They were able to stack 6 on the center goal in two minutes at the DC Scrimmage (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=339617&postcount=23) .
http://www.invisiblerobot.com/robotics/robot_c43e/p2199947.jpg

Wetzel

tbuo1

08-04-2005, 21:15

I wonder if it would ever be possible for FIRST to add a rule allowing teams to keep their robots for an extra week but only allow software to work on it? Unfortunately, this is probably too unenforceable and would leave a large opportunity for abuse, and would extend the build season which a lot of people are (rightfully) opposed to. Unfortunately I just don't see how else autonomous modes can improve. Anyone have ideas?

Here's my two cents worth:
FIRST must support this (autonomous) part of the game better. Last year when we were given the IR challenge, we experienced many mishaps at regional competitions that made the IR sensors unreliable; the alumimum diamond plate around the playing field reflected the IR signal everywhere,the left and right IR beacons were sometimes crossed, and at one regional the beacons weren't even turned on! (they were eventually turned on)
This year, fifteen seconds is really tight! You really don't want to risk your robot getting damaged by making it go full speed during autonomous mode. There are a few things I would like to suggest to make this year autonomous (camera) mode more likely to be accomplished- First, allow more time (about 20 seconds). Second, the vision tetras should be placed randomly on the playing field with one on the left side and the other on the right side. Right now, some combinations are just impossible. Third, make sure the light is at a good level with no shadow on the playing field. Last, make sure no judges or FIRST volunteers place something like a Mountain Dew can around the playing field. Our robot actually locked on to a Mountain Dew can at Grand Rapids. If we are tracking green and yellow on the field, make sure green and yellow are only on the target! :D

Beta Version

08-04-2005, 22:30

I totally agree. This year autonomous mode is more of what it should be, something complex and challenging that wields a strong reward for completing. I think it's sad that at the sight of an actually challenging autonomous, most teams cowered and didn’t even try. While the vision thing is new and some things need to be ironed out, autonomous isn’t supposed to be some easy thing on the side. I love the challenge that programming a robot to see colors and do a complex task with this perceived information has put forth, but the time really is just a little to short. And our robot did the same thing, it kept staring at this strip of yellow caution tape on the field when looking for the goal. They should forbid yellow and green objects on the playing field unless its with the drivers behind the obscuring Plexiglas, or behind a covering.

PURPLE!

08-04-2005, 22:50

Beta Version

10-04-2005, 00:28

But the only people wearing something like green camo pants (a team member) will be far away and elevated above the robot in the stands, or behind and out of site of the robot at the control station or human player pad.

tkwetzel

10-04-2005, 00:45

Wayne C.

10-04-2005, 08:04

I totally agree. This year autonomous mode is more of what it should be, something complex and challenging that wields a strong reward for completing. I think it's sad that at the sight of an actually challenging autonomous, most teams cowered and didn’t even try. [/U]

Well I'm sorry you are sad about it but the fact is that there IS NO strong reward for capping the vision tetra. Even if you cap the center goal you only get 9 points. Any simple penalty will kill 10 pts. Maybe thats why soi many are so hot to get the TIKI I am offering.

Therefore any person who analyzes the game will see that you can pretty much offset capping the vision tetra by being a rapid capper. So the time spent developing an autonomous mode of complexity might be better spent developing something else.

Now everybody has all year to play games with the camera and develop all the modes they want outside the six week build period. I am sure if folks want to learn camera programming and if FIRST doesn't change it again, we will see a Kodak smorgasbord next year.

WC :cool:

Beta Version

10-04-2005, 13:02

I agree that the award for capping doesnt immediately give you a very substantial point bonus, but it does gives you an amazing stratigic bonus. It would then be very simple to score a row on your own side (a sure way to get a well controlled row) with out wasting using so much time. Having that triangular formation of capped goals makes it very easy to rapidly gain the edge on scoring rows.

I also meant that it is a vast improvement from last year, where the reward for completing the autonomous challenge was practically negligable.

Beta Version

10-04-2005, 13:06

Though I must say that the biggest drive to cap the goal probably is your tikki

Mike

10-04-2005, 14:46

Even if you cap the center goal you only get 9 points.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=360293#post360293

funstuff

10-04-2005, 16:21

As we look forward to Atlanta, there are teams that have capped the side goals with vision tetras during autonomous and there are teams that have come close to capping the center with a vision tetra in autonomous. I think someone besides team 25 will own the tiki by the end of the Championship event.

Vision capping hopefuls for nationals (let me know if I miss any):
66
237
281
624

I want to see someone claim the tiki...don't let me down.

You might want to add 980 to that list. Domingo seems to think he can land it. Good luck to all teams going to Atlanta, especially those who are looking to cap the vision tetra in autonomous.

Beta Version

10-04-2005, 20:22

This string would have been better named "everything anyone could possibly want to say about autonomous" or something. :p

ldeffenb

11-04-2005, 06:59

Vision capping hopefuls for nationals (let me know if I miss any):
66
237
281
624

Please add 386 to the list. Capping the center goal in autonomous with the vision tetra has been our team's primary mission for 2005!

Lynn (D) - Team Voltage 386 Software Mentor & Coach

Elgin Clock

11-04-2005, 12:21

Vision capping hopefuls for nationals (let me know if I miss any):

Where to look for the potentials...

66 Curie
237 Galileo
281 Galileo
386 Archimedes
624 Archimedes
980 Archimedes

Hmm.. No one from Newton wants to try? :eek:

Beta Version

11-04-2005, 12:56

WOW, so confused :confused: I have no idea what that last post meant at all.

ben281

11-04-2005, 13:56

hey everyone!
i really have to agree with beta version. the 3 goal cap in autonomous is an amazing advantage! most teams can't cap 3 in one match little alone in autonomous. also the triangle formation is a great starting place for strategy! think about it, what would the opponents do for starting strategy? its a real conumdrum for them. it is almost an automatic back row for the team who does it and the other two teams on the alliance will already be attacking their back row, before they can get it. i think you will be hard pressed to find a game where a team that does it in autonomous will lose that game. even with unfair team match ups. but hey! its only in a few weeks away! we will see very soon! good luck to everyone at nats. and can't wait to match up with you 237! we are in the same section! catch everyone later
Ben
TEAM 281!!

Mike Soukup

11-04-2005, 14:39

Hmm.. No one from Newton wants to try? :eek:
I wouldn't make that assumption. Maybe it's just that no one from Newton is brave (or is it foolish?) enough to guarantee a center goal cap in autonomous like so many others have.

Beta Version

11-04-2005, 15:34

I wouldn't make that assumption. Maybe it's just that no one from Newton is brave (or is it foolish?) enough to guarantee a center goal cap in autonomous like so many others have.

It's not that were necessarily boasting a guarantee for an autonomous cap from our team (as that would be foolish.) We are simply very proud of the intense work we have done, and are excited at the possibility of seeing this work result in an unprecedented achievement, not just for our own team but for any of the teams, on that list or not, that have stood up to the challenge and strived to accomplish it. Any team that has endeavored to possibly complete this task should be proud of that. No one should feel that if they say they might have the possibility of achieving this that they have made a commitment or grantee to it, nor feel like they will be scrutinized if they fail to succeed. It is not a matter of bravery, but of pride.

I hope no one sees this as a cut against Mike Soukup's opinions, it is simply a statement of my own.

RubberDucky

12-04-2005, 22:05

Vision capping hopefuls for nationals (let me know if I miss any):
66
237
281
624

Team 854 will be trying for it I believe, I am unsure right now though as our programmer might not be able to go to Atlanta :(

Pin Man

12-04-2005, 23:00

Team 854 will be trying for it I believe, I am unsure right now though as our programmer might not be able to go to Atlanta :(

Keep your eyes on Galileo... I believe there is a bright team with something up their sleeves... :D

Ben Margolis

13-04-2005, 01:12

Well I'm sorry you are sad about it but the fact is that there IS NO strong reward for capping the vision tetra.

Programmer's pride. FIRST needs some more. As a first year with a big head, I think I'm just the guy to do it. :cool:

thoughtful

13-04-2005, 02:07

Programmer's pride. FIRST needs some more. As a first year with a big head, I think I'm just the guy to do it. :cool:

I think when(not if ;) ) someone caps it the programmers of the team deserve a standing ovation! :cool:

PURPLE!

13-04-2005, 10:07

I think when(not if ;) ) someone caps it the programmers of the team deserve a standing ovation! :cool:

Heh, well 624 has already been cheering on our programmers. If you have ever seen us in competition you know we have a large "CRyptonite" sign where everyone holds one letter. Well, now during the first 15 seconds we hold up "Pye" (one of our 2 programmers). :D

PURPLE!

13-04-2005, 15:09

Wayne C.

14-04-2005, 19:30

Okay, I am just curious to what the actual tiki looks like... and being this is a robotics tournament, honestly I think this would be the best tiki for the award

Tiki (http://www.everythingusb.com/news/index/6493.htm)

sorry- I don't have a pic of the tiki- it's sitting on the front seat of my truck though. And I didn't want to post a picture because I know nobody will ever win it and it would just make some poor team sad to see it and never get it. ; )

I love the TIKI drive and it is something that our scouting team should definitely look into. I know I will be looking to get one soon for my PC.

WC
:cool:

jgannon

14-04-2005, 20:57

I think this is something FIRST needs to think about. They gave us great tools this year for autonomous, yet basically no one can do it (even if a few manage to make it happen at the championships, it's still essentially 0%). The only way we're going to see better looking autonomous modes in the future is if they can find some way to give the software guys on all these teams some time to work with their real robot. Just like every other team I'm sure, our software team only had a day or two to work with our completed "shipping" robot. If every team had had an additional week to work on software for their competition robot, I think we'd see more capping happen.
From this thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=357848#post357848):
"I've been giving it some thought, and I think that FIRST may very well have known what they were getting us into by including the camera with the kit. The animation and the human simulation at kickoff both indicated that vision was going to be a simple task; both showed two teams on one alliance pursuing vision tetras, and the animation even showed a robot using vision during driver control to find the loading station. No one familiar with the technology could honestly believe it to be as simple of a task as it was portrayed, but that wasn't the point. Line tracking is a pretty simple task; many teams achieved it last year, and once it was done, the vast majority of us programmers got to sit around and watch the rest of our team slave away on mechanical issues. By giving a monumental, practically unattainable task, FIRST continued to strive for their stated goals; they don't care if our code works, but rather that we've been inspired. I personally spent dozens of hours trying to make the camera work, and all the time between ship date and competition was spent pondering how I could pull it off in only three more days of work. By the end of our regional, our team ended up hacking our camera box off the side of our robot, because I couldn't make it work. Did I succeed in capping a vision tetra? No. Did FIRST inspire me, and lead me to ponder programming tasks that I'd never even dreamed of? Absolutely, and I'm thrilled about it. It's fantastic that a very small group of teams have mastered the technology, but I wouldn't say that the teams that at least made an attempt (probably a sizable number... anybody remember the thread complaining about how easy programming was going to be this year?) have failed."

While it would be great if I had another week to program the robot, and if we had more teams that could cap autonomously, I don't think that that's the point.

Mike

14-04-2005, 21:43

Big Mike has a picture of me and a half tiki we won at Trenton...

The Lucas

15-04-2005, 05:27

sorry- I don't have a pic of the tiki- it's sitting on the front seat of my truck though. And I didn't want to post a picture because I know nobody will ever win it and it would just make some poor team sad to see it and never get it. ; )

Better buckle that tiki up! :ahh: It's a long trip to Atlanta. It would be a shame if it broke during the trip down and someone actually won it. :yikes: I can vouch for the fact that the Team 25's tiki awards look very cool :cool: . We won one at the Brunswick Eruption in 2002, and it is one of the most noticeable trophies on our shelf :eek:

BillP

15-04-2005, 09:57

From this thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=357848#post357848):
"Did I succeed in capping a vision tetra? No. Did FIRST inspire me, and lead me to ponder programming tasks that I'd never even dreamed of? Absolutely, and I'm thrilled about it. It's fantastic that a very small group of teams have mastered the technology, but I wouldn't say that the teams that at least made an attempt (probably a sizable number... anybody remember the thread complaining about how easy programming was going to be this year?) have failed."

EXACTLY! Here in a nutshell, this young man has very elegantly phrased what F.I.R.S.T. is all about. While the students and mentors of 624 CRyptonite are extremely proud of what the students have accomplished, we are all equally proud of ALL teams. This is especially true for any team that even attempted to get the vision camera working.

Joey, if you are coming to Atlanta, please come see me ... I want to shake your hand! (I'll be the one with the green beard).

Collmandoman

15-04-2005, 11:06

Dave Flowerday

15-04-2005, 14:11

While it would be great if I had another week to program the robot, and if we had more teams that could cap autonomously, I don't think that that's the point.
While I certainly agree that anyone who tried it got something out of it and that is a good thing, many teams have posted and said they didn't bother trying because they could tell it was too hard. But the reason I think autonomous was mostly a failure this year is because it's boring to watch. Remember, in order for FIRST to continue to spread they want to try to make it interesting and appealing to people who don't know much about it. FIRST has hinted time and again that they want to make it as TV-friendly as possible to open up that avenue of publicity. Having a competition where 11% of the match time appears to be robots just sitting there on the field does not work well for that goal. Compounding this problem is that the "easier" autonomous things to do like knocking down the hanging tetras can be done by many teams, but they don't involve much movement so it isn't that visually appealing to the spectators. My parents came to watch the Midwest Regional and they didn't even notice that a lot of robots actually did accomplish something in autonomous. From way up in the stands, if you're not watching closely, it's easy to miss the relatively small movements that a lot of teams make in order to knock those tetras down.

I really don't think FIRST intended or expected such a small amount of use out of the camera this year. Those cameras cost $200 per kit. That's a lot of money that could have been spent on something that would have been useful to more teams if they knew people weren't going to use it.

BillP

15-04-2005, 14:29

FIRST has hinted time and again that they want to make it as TV-friendly as possible to open up that avenue of publicity. Having a competition where 11% of the match time appears to be robots just sitting there on the field does not work well for that goal. Compounding this problem is that the "easier" autonomous things to do like knocking down the hanging tetras can be done by many teams, but they don't involve much movement so it isn't that visually appealing to the spectators.

OK, I see your point here, and I would agree that, to the non-initiated spectator who knows nothing about FIRST or the nature of this year's competition, the fact that many robots did nothing in autonomous was certainly not exciting. It may be that FIRST actually did underestimate the complexity of getting the camera system to work with respect to capping goals, but I wonder how many teams got the vision system working properly but were unable to get the software/hardware coordination required to get a tetra on top of a goal (something that is not exactly trivial even when the students are driving!). From my perspective, the harder the challenge, the greater the opportunity for learning. The bar can sometimes be set too high (no intended reference to last year's game), and maybe this year, it was close ... but I don't think it was too high.

Just my opinion

Mike

15-04-2005, 19:15

Those cameras cost $200 per kit. That's a lot of money that could have been spent on something that would have been useful to more teams if they knew people weren't going to use it.
FIRST buys those cameras bulk, so they get a deal on them.

I think taking the cameras out of the kit is a horrible idea. It's like FIRST saying "Well it was too hard, so we give up. Lets give the kids something easier to do."
How is that supposed to inspire kids?

Dave Flowerday

15-04-2005, 19:36

I think taking the cameras out of the kit is a horrible idea. It's like FIRST saying "Well it was too hard, so we give up. Lets give the kids something easier to do."
How is that supposed to inspire kids?I think you misunderstood me. I don't want them to remove the camera either, in fact I will encourage FIRST to give us another chance with a camera-based game next year. I was responding to this statement:
By giving a monumental, practically unattainable task, FIRST continued to strive for their stated goals; they don't care if our code works, but rather that we've been inspired....which seemed to be implying that FIRST didn't really care if anyone made the camera work. My point was that I didn't think they'd spend all that money to put the cameras in the kit if they didn't expect them to be used.

I wonder how many teams got the vision system working properly but were unable to get the software/hardware coordination required to get a tetra on top of a goal (something that is not exactly trivial even when the students are driving!)I agree. A challenging autonomous task is good and makes for better learning, but I think they underestimated the complexity of this year's task a little bit. Which also brings me back to my original statement that I think if there had been a period of time this year where the robot building had to be done but the software teams could still work with their robot we may have seen more action with the camera.

jgannon

15-04-2005, 20:02

I was responding to this statement:
By giving a monumental, practically unattainable task, FIRST continued to strive for their stated goals; they don't care if our code works, but rather that we've been inspired.
...which seemed to be implying that FIRST didn't really care if anyone made the camera work. My point was that I didn't think they'd spend all that money to put the cameras in the kit if they didn't expect them to be used.
Just because the camera isn't on most robots doesn't mean it wasn't used (ours got plenty of use during build season, though it isn't on the robot now), and doesn't mean it's not a valuable tool. As you know, a copy of Visual Studio comes in the Kit of Parts. It's not something that ends up on the robot, nor is it something that everyone uses, but for those who do use it, it can be a valuable tool in the process of inspiration. And, the few teams that did succeed in their efforts with the camera inspire us all to do better with autonomy next year. Just because not every team has a camera on their robot doesn't mean that FIRST overestimated us, nor does it mean that they threw away a whole lot of $200 components.

Wayne C.

16-04-2005, 17:40

The original offer stands- first to cap per above gets a TIKI like the ones we use as BE trophies.

How about if all you guys who claim to be able to do it send MY TEAM the donuts if at the end of the Nationals the bet still stands? Big Mike and I sure like those Krispy Kremes.....

You know, as I sit here with this poor lonely tiki I keep thinking of all those Krispy Kreme donuts that will be showing up at the team 25 pits on Saturday morning......

Maybe even Dave will show up in his purple Hawaiian shirt?

To make it even more interesting- I'll up the bet to include one of our purple Hawaiian shirts for the programmer who gets the job done first. It will be sitting in the pits with the TIKI waiting for you - IF you can do it.

WC :cool:

BillP

18-04-2005, 09:42

To make it even more interesting- I'll up the bet to include one of our purple Hawaiian shirts for the programmer who gets the job done first. It will be sitting in the pits with the TIKI waiting for you - IF you can do it.

Better be prepared with 2 purple Hawaiian shirts for 624. We have 2 programmers who collaborated on our successful software.

PURPLE!

18-04-2005, 10:16

Better be prepared with 2 purple Hawaiian shirts for 624. We have 2 programmers who collaborated on our successful software.

Yep! We arn't leaving until we cap center!!

Joe Ross

21-04-2005, 23:57

Last night 1466 capped the center in auto twice.. out of 5 tries ~ someone from newton can now do it- but I doubt we'll actually run it at nats! BUT WHO KNOWS... ever reason to come and watch newton all day

1466 came within inches of capping twice in the practice match I watched. I don't know what they did in their other two matches.

tkwetzel

22-04-2005, 00:16

Here are the teams that came close at regionals and the teams that say they may be able to do it:
66
111
237
281
386
624
854
980
1466

I hope I get to see it when it happens, because I know it will. And the programmers that were able to complete such a task are to commended. Actually, all of the programmers on the above teams are to be commended for coming as close as they have already.

Collmandoman

22-04-2005, 00:50

those GREEN side panels on the VISION tetra become rather annoying when you use DEAD RECKONING!

BillP

22-04-2005, 22:05

Well, after a day of practice matches and a day of qualifying matches, the coveted TIKI award is still up for grabs. Not much time left gang. I know that the members of 624 are still trying like heck to accomplish this and we send our heartfelt congratulations and best wishes for all the other teams who are trying!

While we, of course, will be disappointed if we are not the first to cap the center goal in autonomous, at this point, we just want SOMEONE to do it. FIRST made the challenge really hard this year and we have immense admiration for all those who stayed the course and tried to meet it.

We need to show FIRST that we are up to the challenge. Keep at it and good luck!

It's been a great ride so far, and it will only get better!

tkwetzel

23-04-2005, 19:47

Did it happen??? I haven't heard anything about it happening this weekend. I know a few teams got close, but did any tem cap the center goal witha vision tetra in autonomous?

If not, I think FIRST should bring the camera back next year with a higher point value for using it. I think we would see a HUGE improvement next year with the camera.

Bharat Nain

23-04-2005, 19:52

We did not have any excited programmers run into our pits for a hawaiian shirts and a tiki so I guess no one capped the vision tetra on the center goal. However, I know many capped it on the practice field and I would like to see some videos of that. Congratulations to all those genius programmers who got close to accomplishing this task.
-Bharat

PURPLE!

23-04-2005, 23:18

624 still deserves one... come on! I know you saw that picture and the video!! Honestly enough there is a rumor that had been floating around that the tiki dosn't even exist....

Stephen Kowski

24-04-2005, 01:37

624 still deserves one... come on! I know you saw that picture and the video!! Honestly enough there is a rumor that had been floating around that the tiki dosn't even exist....

I believe it exists....just no one was able to meet the qualifications to recieve it :rolleyes: i had heard that team 66?(60 something i dunno) actually placed it on but then didn't back off in time....eh close but no cigar

JoeXIII'007

24-04-2005, 09:56

I believe it exists....just no one was able to meet the qualifications to recieve it :rolleyes: i had heard that team 66?(60 something i dunno) actually placed it on but then didn't back off in time....eh close but no cigar
YOU DID NOT DO THAT TO ME! WHY? WHY? YOU JUST DIDN'T DO THAT TO ME.

I don't know if anyone heard that or a similar rant after that close call, but *sigh*, it never did it.

ldeffenb

24-04-2005, 20:45

Well, 624 was looking really good in our match against them (Archimedes Q80). Unfortunately, we were also right on track and we both met over the center goal hosing both of us!

If you want to see close tries, but no successes, see the following Archimedes qualifiers (with reasons for non-success).

Q5 - Off 6" to the right
Q24 - Our closest. Got it on, got back, it wasn't square!
Q42 - 2" too short! Lift drifted back after raising.
Q57 - Tilt cotter pin sheared off causing robot to wait for a tilt that would never finish

Corrected tilt and lift issues in code overnight.

Q71 - Systems Engineer tied down some "loose" sensor cables that promptly pulled out as soon as we started lifting causing code to think lifting/tilting was unsafe.
Q80 - On the money until we met 624 over the center goal.
Q89 - Missed hooking the tetra and then our local safety switch was engaged costing us 30 seconds of human player time.

If only we had played more than one regional! However, if Team 25 would send me a private message with a snail-mail address, there'll be a Crispy Creme gift certificate sent shortly thereafter!

Thanks for the great incentive to keep on trying. Videos will be posted as soon as I get them organized.

Lynn (D) - Team Voltage 386 Software & Coach

ldeffenb

24-04-2005, 21:17

Videos of 386 are available via BitTorrent at http://ldeffenb.dnsalias.net:30049. They are:

20050421 Practice Cap - A Practice Field Success!
20050422 Q24 - Our closest one - On the top, but not scoring
20050422 Q42 - 2" too short!
20050422 Q57 - Sheared tilt pin :(

All of these are inside 20050422 WMVs if you want smaller, lower quality version.

20050423 videos will be later this week, as soon as I get them from our videographer.

Lynn (D) - Team Voltage 386 Software Mentor & Coach

PS. BitTorrent clients are at www.BitTornado.com (Windoze) or www.BitTorret.com (Windoze and others).

tkwetzel

24-04-2005, 22:36

Videos of 386 are available via BitTorrent at http://ldeffenb.dnsalias.net:30049. They are:

20050421 Practice Cap - A Practice Field Success!
20050422 Q24 - Our closest one - On the top, but not scoring
20050422 Q42 - 2" too short!
20050422 Q57 - Sheared tilt pin :(

All of these are inside 20050422 WMVs if you want smaller, lower quality version.

These matches are also available on www.SOAP108.com under the archimedes division.

ldeffenb

25-04-2005, 00:11

These matches are also available on www.SOAP108.com under the archimedes division.

SOAP's videos don't focus on the teams involved, but they have *all* (well, most) of the qualifiers. I've packaged 386 and 624's SOAP clips into two .torrents and posted them as well.

If you use BitTorrent to pull the directories, we can save SOAP's bandwidth for other uses.

Also, SOAP's view of Q80 shows pretty well that 624's tetra hung on the top of the goal and successfully blocked 386's tetra from swinging over the top as it needed to. I only wish that these had been two different matches so that we could know who would have made it and who would not have. I'll let you all draw your own conclusions after watching them.

Lynn (D) - Team Voltage 386 Video Hustler

PS. http://ldeffenb.dnsalias.net:30049 - Look for "SOAP108 386" and "SOAP108 624".

PPS. Does anyone know which qualifiers 66 played in on Curie? Or 237 or 281 on Galileo? I'd like to download and watch their attempts as well.

Bharat Nain

25-04-2005, 01:32

624 still deserves one... come on! I know you saw that picture and the video!! Honestly enough there is a rumor that had been floating around that the tiki dosn't even exist....

Incorrect sir. They were displayed in our pits in a box with a hawaiian shirt and the tiki. It came back home with us.

Wetzel

25-04-2005, 01:37

Incorrect sir. They were displayed in our pits in a box with a hawaiian shirt and the tiki. It came back home with us.

I saw it. It was a very nice tiki and box.

Wetzel

ldeffenb

25-04-2005, 07:35

Honestly enough there is a rumor that had been floating around that the tiki dosn't even exist....

I made it a point to go by Team 25's pit and personally saw the Tiki. We have a picture (if it wasn't on our Media Guy's broken digital camera) of the Tiki with a Team 25 member.

It was/is certainly worth the effort to acquire even though team 386 was unsuccessful. We didn't even know about the Hawaiian shirts!

Lynn (D) - Team Voltage 386 Software Mentor

RubberDucky

25-04-2005, 11:34

We (854) were so close. On friday we got it up onto the center goal but it didn't sit properly...if only that went down on saturday but sat properly :yikes: don't know what happened on saturday but it just wasn't finding it.

the_short1

25-04-2005, 12:11

i think team 66 should get the tiki (if anyone).. they stacked on on a side goal once in GLR.. and it was awsome.. and they got it on at the champs.. they just didnlt get their arm outa the way in time.. ..

but i understand how they did not meet the criteria in full .. that suxorz

dradius

25-04-2005, 12:56

ben281

25-04-2005, 14:24

Yes, TIKI does exist. he was right on the other side of our pit (and looks super cool, if i may add that). thanks for putting up this challenge team 25! we all had a good time trying to get it. from what i could see, 1466 and 281 did it in practice, but no one did it in the real thing. did anyone else do it in practice!? well, we had a good time, catch you guys later!
Ben
TEAM 281

Keith Chester

25-04-2005, 16:58

not to be picky or selfish, but it's not the same by doing that! the teams who came so close were exactly that--so close. no one actually MET the challenge. the only possible place to cap now is the expo in san diego with 1266. guys at 25, i think you should keep the TIKI for next year and assign a new and challenging goal. no one met it this year--a true shame. but cutting corners on the requirements just isnt fair. team 386, i think you can agree with me that there was one particular field that was grey for us all (and especially you) via use of selective vision programming to meet the req.

we tried our hardest. thats what matters.

You're exactly right- you guys tried your hardest, and succeeded (though unfortunately not in a qualifying match) in accomplishing a task that thousands wrote off as impossible. Be proud of yourselves- still in high school and using your BRAINS to accomplish the IMPOSSIBLE. That is the true spirit of FIRST in action.

My team is still discussing whether or not the tiki shall a) be held up for an official off season match, b) be given to the "closest" team (if this is the choice, we'll take a video of ONE match with the closest cap.) or the MOST LIKELY course of action, c) hold it for NEXT YEARS "impossible" task. Don't worry- the offered shirt shall stay with the tiki. We'll let you know what we decide to do with it.

Congratulations to all who worked so hard at getting it! We encouraged everyone who came by to go for it, and it certainly was great to have high school students run by into our pits and tell us, wide-eyed, of how close they were. Imagine that - a high school student out of breath excitingly describing how close his program was instead of the latest football game.

The Lucas

25-04-2005, 22:50

My team is still discussing whether or not the tiki shall a) be held up for an official off season match, b) be given to the "closest" team (if this is the choice, we'll take a video of ONE match with the closest cap.) or the MOST LIKELY course of action, c) hold it for NEXT YEARS "impossible" task. Don't worry- the offered shirt shall stay with the tiki. We'll let you know what we decide to do with it.

Go with option a. I don't think you were calling a vote but I'm voting anyway. It will give us programmers something to shoot for in offseason events. See if an extra week with your actual robot will make the difference in auto programming.

Now that our robot is faster, we might be able to do it. I would like to revisit our dead reckoning program that grabs vision tetras directly in front of us. It is one of the many programs we never got a chance to run (like our auto loader cap program). Since off-season comps are all about fun, you don't have to worry about your program not working and missing out on your normal effective routine.

You could always use the vision cap tiki as a way to promote Brunswick Eruption this year. It certainly wouldn't be the weirdest thing you ever did to promote the Eruption ;) (I still cry every time I see those poor MOE Sticks (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4393&page=1&pp=15) :ahh: That was classic)

Keith Chester

25-04-2005, 22:54

Is that a way of saying the great green team will be able to make it to BE this year? Because BE last year was missing a shade of neon that was sorely missed...

The Lucas

25-04-2005, 23:22

Is that a way of saying the great green team will be able to make it to BE this year? Because BE last year was missing a shade of neon that was sorely missed...
I don't make those decisions. I want to go to every off-season event and I am a pest about it :D. Last year wear and tear on our bot was a major issue (stupid arm gear kept snapping in half and the drive motors started to fail) and we could not go to two events in two consecutive weeks (especially after every one is tired from the Duel). This year's robot requires less maintenance.

Also, we had a good year this year, so I want to continue competing with this bot. I can't remember the last time we won an off-season event. I can remember how many times your team has handed us a Finalist trophy. I am going to focus on PARC right now (I think we are registering this week). What day is BE this year? (I just checked Off-season thread and didn't see it. Its still a little early. Ramp Riot & Duel aren't posted either.)

dradius

25-04-2005, 23:32

Now that our robot is faster, we might be able to do it.

yet again, not to be a stick in the mud, but dont you think its sorta cheating to have a better robot than in competition? we could all mod our robots and be so much closer, but that also defeats the purpose.

option a would be a godsend, but i dont think we can make it, besides the fact that i might not be here anymore to help locally. option b is cool, but sorta predictable right now.....and still a poor substitute for actual matches. heck, 980s cap didnt count in the practice match but calling it close in a video post season decides the winner? no way man.

The Lucas

25-04-2005, 23:52

yet again, not to be a stick in the mud, but dont you think its sorta cheating to have a better robot than in competition? we could all mod our robots and be so much closer, but that also defeats the purpose.

I agree, but we are not going to mod our drive in the off-season. We were faster at the Championship Event (we were about 4fps before about 10 fps after). We spent half of Thursday moving CIM motors from the arm to the drive (4 CIMs now instead of 2). We could not have done it without the "NBD: Nothing But Dewalts" whitepaper (thanks to Joe & Joe), because all we had to do to regear the robot was switch from 1 to 2 on the already existing Dewalt transmissions. 2 FP motors with default gearboxes took the CIM's place on the arm winch (also very easy to mount). We cut 5lbs in weight, mostly off the bottom plate.

Being faster messed up our existing auto routines. It was pretty funny if you saw our first practice match. We rewrote a couple on the pit practice field (lowered the already existing speed limit), but the cap routine was not one of them.

ldeffenb

26-04-2005, 07:32

a) be held up for an official off season match, b) be given to the "closest" team , c) hold it for NEXT YEARS "impossible" task.

I would place my vote for C - I know the Tiki was the inspiration for us to keep working so hard. The bonus just didn't seem worth the effort.

a) There's no such thing as an "official" off-season match and it unlevels the playfield fairly dramatically.

b) Definition of "closest" would be very difficult.

c) As mentioned above, this is my vote.

Lynn (D) - Team Voltage 386 Software & Coach & Tiki Contender

Keith Chester

26-04-2005, 07:51

Now now people... this isn't a vote. And there will DEFINATELY be a tiki next year for FIRST's next "impossible" task, I can assure you of that no matter what we decide to do.

yet again, not to be a stick in the mud, but dont you think its sorta cheating to have a better robot than in competition? we could all mod our robots and be so much closer, but that also defeats the purpose.

For one, titanium arms with metal chains comes into mind :ahh: . Ha.

Don't refrain from changing your robot- as long as you stay close to the weight limit and size limit, and don't introduce anything illegal, I'm sure most teams won't mind.

It's your robot, and you built it in six weeks. I'm sure you love it as much as I do mine, and those robots deserve a make over now and then.

In my honest opinion, FIRST is nothing but a success if a group of high school students not only manage to build a robot in six weeks, but after the competition spends their days improving that robot. Is that not the level of inspiration we seek?

On the other side is prospective rookie teams brining other team's past robots to compete- we're doing this with 2 schools with our previous robots. These robots would NOT pass inspection in the 05 comps, but in the offseason we will waive that at BE and hopefully at other competitions we bring them too. This allows these highschools to get a stronger taste of FIRST and secure their future teams. Would anyone mind if we had the robots modified 2 YEARS after their six week build period, if the purpose is for gracious professionalism or engineering curiosity?

PS - any prospective rookie team (ie: '06 rookie season) that brings a modified bot will be let in for free at BE. Contact me or Wayne Cokeley for more information if you're interested.

Mike

26-04-2005, 18:44

Save that Tiki for next year... it'll just make it that much more worthwhile.

Masterfork

26-04-2005, 21:05

hey we did it on the ppractice field but no tape so no proof but we did it 2 times in a row if anybody was watching the field but we couldn't do it in our qualifying matches becuase the lighting was different but it was cool on the practice field

team66t-money

28-04-2005, 15:02

Hi Guys umm to let everyone know we may not have capped the center goal during a match but we did cap with vision the center goal 5 times consecutively on the practice field in our division. If everyone would like to know 007,233 we believe saw us do this.

Wayne C.

28-04-2005, 19:27

The Fate of the TIKI-

Back at the beginning of the season when I taunted all of you with the prospect of winning a tiki I never expected to have so many teams across the nation take up the challenge and actually try for it.

When nobody actually accomplished the feat I was a little surprised and left here with this damned tiki.

So I am announcing a new. perennial TIKI award to be given out by team 25 -

To honor our pit advisor John Chester who has been a great asset for the past few years we are creating the

CHESTER CHALLENGE

each season before the regionals begin we will determine a "near impossible" task in that year's game to aspire to and announce the challenge right here on CD.

The TIKI will be awarded to any team achieving the challenge first at an official FIRST event and we will extend that to one last chance at our fall replay game The Brunswick Eruption.

If the tiki goes unclaimed at the end of the year we are considering awarding it to FIRST since they beat all of you with their game design.

If you want one last shot at this year's TIKI the registration for Brunswick Eruption 4, November 19th, 2005, will be announced soon.

They say the difficult is easy and the impossible just takes a little longer.
I say prove it.

WC

:cool:

Keith Chester

28-04-2005, 21:34

Chester Challenge Jr. (John Chester is my dear old dad and I am QUITE challenged) says bring it on... 281! 66! 237! The rest of you! I expect to see that vision tetra promptly placed in 15 seconds come BE.

Mike

28-04-2005, 22:03

237 is definetly gonna go for the Chester Challenge each year =)

Mike Soukup

29-04-2005, 11:24

Back at the beginning of the season when I taunted all of you with the prospect of winning a tiki I never expected to have so many teams across the nation take up the challenge and actually try for it.
Wayne, the TIKI is one of the rewards that kept our team motivated while attempting the impossible. The same is probably true of other teams. Thanks for putting it on the table, and we look forward to trying to win it next year.

Andy Baker

29-04-2005, 11:37

Wayne, the TIKI is one of the rewards that kept our team motivated while attempting the impossible. The same is probably true of other teams. Thanks for putting it on the table, and we look forward to trying to win it next year.

From what I could see, on the Newton field, 111 had less than their share of chances to get the vision tetra. I think that there were at least 4 matches when the 2 randomly placed vision tetras were on the far left and far right tetra positions, providing the worse case scenario for a center goal vision cap.

Now... with the off-season approaching, more time is available for teams to debug and perfect their vision-tetra-seeking-systems. Some questions arise:

1. Will it be done at PARC, at IRI, at Mayhem, River Rage, or Eruption? Is there another event where this will happen?
2. Will the Tiki (or some other award) be given to a team who does this task at an off-season event?

Maybe we should implement some Tiki-like award at IRI to challenge teams to continue their development. Hmmmm....

Andy B.

Dave Scheck

29-04-2005, 11:43

Maybe we should implement some Tiki-like award at IRI to challenge teams to continue their development. Hmmmm....Andy, you're killing me here...just when I thought we were going to have a break, you have to go and give us incentive...:rolleyes:

Mike Soukup

29-04-2005, 11:48

I think that there were at least 4 matches when the 2 randomly placed vision tetras were on the far left and far right tetra positions, providing the worse case scenario for a center goal vision cap.
And our highly knowledgable field announcer kept saying that Wildstang was going for the vision tetras in these positions. Our robot knew the tetras were there, knew we couldn't pick them up, and instead drove to the auto-loader. You'd think the announcer would know better since he's on our team! :rolleyes:

Wayne C.

29-04-2005, 16:57

F
2. Will the Tiki (or some other award) be given to a team who does this task at an off-season event?

Maybe we should implement some Tiki-like award at IRI to challenge teams to continue their development. Hmmmm....

Andy B.

Andy- I am extending the challenge to Brunswick Eruption 4-- November 19th and our school NBTHS. Maybe that can lure your guys out to NJ- finally!

WC :cool:

Keith Chester

29-04-2005, 16:59

Just keep in mind that with every tiki won you get one Big Mike Bear Hug.

The smallest amongst you are warned :D

Mike

29-04-2005, 17:57

Just keep in mind that with every tiki won you get one Big Mike Bear Hug.

The smallest amongst you are warned :D
...oh god.

*Deletes autonomous code.*

Just kidding, =P

dradius

04-05-2005, 22:51

i love it. the challege of this year inspired us beyond belief, and gave our programmers something to really sink their teeth into. the future challeges are a, if not necessary, much wanted "extracurricular" activity for teams to unofficially participate in.

im making my plans to attend Eruption, and im bringing the robot with me. end of story (i guess i could bring FEW people, but that would be sharing..hahahaha).

consider us up to the challege, for the present and years to come. it'll be a grand time.

Collmandoman

06-05-2005, 21:47

did capping the center in auto count on practice day at nats?

how many teams got the tetra on the goal.. but were refused because of the vision panel?

Cyberguy34000

07-05-2005, 20:38

Wayne C.

12-08-2005, 07:55

Andy- I am extending the challenge to Brunswick Eruption 4-- November 19th and our school NBTHS. Maybe that can lure your guys out to NJ- finally!

WC :cool:

Just a reminder- the tiki is still up for grabs- Nov 19th- and you can even get your team in for free if you bring two prerookie teams with loaner robots.

WC

BillP

12-08-2005, 16:34

I remember in the qulification rounds, a team member from team Kryptonite remarking that their mentor really didn't care about winning the compitetion, but that they were going to cap the center in auto.
:(

Well, that's not really the way it happened. We (the mentors of CRyptonite[note the spelling please]), encouraged the team in all aspects of the competition. We were extremely proud of what the team had accomplished in *ALMOST* capping the center goal on a number of occasions and used that fact to build team spirit and pride. The other side of that equation was that we had a capable robot (not exceptional), and in the heat of competition, we were able to hold our own, though we never really stood out.

While I'm at it, I want to take this opportunity to thank Wayne and everyone else involved (including all the teams who tried) for putting up and attempting the challenge. It was an incredible source of inspiration.

Wayne C.

12-08-2005, 17:10

Well, that's not really the way it happened. We (the mentors of CRyptonite[note the spelling please]), encouraged the team in all aspects of the competition. We were extremely proud of what the team had accomplished in *ALMOST* capping the center goal on a number of occasions and used that fact to build team spirit and pride. The other side of that equation was that we had a capable robot (not exceptional), and in the heat of competition, we were able to hold our own, though we never really stood out.

While I'm at it, I want to take this opportunity to thank Wayne and everyone else involved (including all the teams who tried) for putting up and attempting the challenge. It was an incredible source of inspiration.

Well Bill- Texas is only 20 hrs drive from NJ. The chance is still there......

WC :rolleyes: