Multiple tetras

[Andrew Blair]

Has anyone been able to dominate the game while only picking up one tetra at a time? I know at our competition the robots who did extremely well could pick up more than one, well.

[abeD]

Yes....179 swampthing

[MattB703]

Teams 66, 67, and 68 won the Great Lakes Regional. They all pick up 1 at a time. (Well I guess 67 could do 2 if they wanted but they usually held 1 at a time.

[Swampdude]

I have to say 1402 was impressive to watch. I saw them put 3 stacks of 4 up once, they may have done it more. That's 36 point's plus the row 10pt bonus (46). It's definitely a tough hole for the other team to dig out of. But for us, I think our lowest scoring matches were in the 50's only because we didn't bother scoring the same goal twice. Scoring on the opponents corners while owning your home and midfield is key. We were part of 5 matches where we scored every goal on the field with our alliances help. One of them with 845 cutting edge and 180 spam we scored 113pts - almost made it back home in that match but bumped into spam and finished half over the line. Anyhow - I watched the vidoes 108 was giving out on CD (THANKS 108 - YOU GUYS ARE AWSOME!) and I saw repeatedly teams capping over goals that were already capped, giving up the possible bonus rows for a 3pt cap. I can understand if they don't want to risk getting hit on the opponents turf but it's definitely how to dominate.

[cfox2008]

1023 only picks up one tetra at a time, and we did pretty good, same thing with our alliance partners that we went to the finals with at GLR

[Koko Ed]

I think the question should be: has nay of the robots that pick up more than one tetra dominated a competition? It looks like quality is ruling over quanity (doesn't matter if you have alot of tetras if you can't score them but what does matter is how quicly you can get them placed on a goal. That's what the winning robots have in common).

[Yan Wang]

I thought 233 was very high quality, fast, and efficient. They picked up 2 at a time... either from autoloader or HP. Probably the best example so far of a very effective multi-tetra-holding bot.

[Rick TYler]

Has anyone been able to dominate the game while only picking up one tetra at a time? I know at our competition the robots who did extremely well could pick up more than one, well.

Team 997 brought a robot to Portland that could stack up to six at a time. They had a powerful drivetrain, too. Their robot was designed to stack 7-8 tetras at once, and was a wonderful piece of engineering. Their beautifully machined grippers were things of beauty. My comments are NOT a criticism of their engineering or driving skills.

Once the other alliances figured out what they could do, they would appoint a robot to score a tetra or two until 997 finished loading, and then play defense on them. They tipped over a couple of times, and especially had trouble being defensed in the finals. The winning alliance at Portland had three robots who drove fast and smooth, and could reliably stack tetras one at a time.

Multi-stackers and really tall robots did not have much impact on the results at Portland. IMO. YMMV.

[Jeremiah Johnson]

There weren't many that could stack multiple tetras at a time. If I am correct we (648) were the only ones. Of course we didnt do it until we were in the elimination rounds. We would have the human player stack 2 tetras on the back of the bot and then we would pick them up, swing our arm around back in again and load up two more then pick them up and stack.

There were tons of bots that stacked one at a time well. 1444, 1625, 650, 935 to name a few. 650 and us were on the finalist alliance and 1444 and 1625 won along with 939. 935 was defeated in the semi's.

[EricH]

Sacramento was dominated by robots that could only pick up and score one tetra at a time. The top four or five robots only handled one at a time. 1097 was first place and had no capability for more than one. 254 could probably have handled more in a stack, but they didn't. 330 can handle up to three at a time, but only does one. 56 can only handle one. Four robots pretty much dominated the qualifying rounds, and none of them handled more than one at a time. 245, the regional winner and fifth seed, only handled one per load and cap.

The moral of the story is: robots that can handle only one tetra still play well and win.

[Bemis]

Andrew has obviously forgotten that at pittsburgh, the regional we were last at, an alliance of single cappers won. It is more important to gain rows than to cap more at once. more points are earned in this way.

[Masterfork]

I thought 233 was very high quality, fast, and efficient. They picked up 2 at a time... either from autoloader or HP. Probably the best example so far of a very effective multi-tetra-holding bot.
thanks but i have to agree swamp does good and also don't forget the bionic tigers 1592 they are rookies but they stack an average of 4 to 5 which is still a good amount and ohh yeah i had a great time driving with you tytus great job

[Rick TYler]

Almost forgot... although they didn't score the vision tetra (which I predicted they might), team 492 picked a tetra from the autoloader and scored it on a corner goal in autonomous. They then proceded to cap as many as five other goals per match -- one tetra at a time. Their record was 15-0-2, with a second consecutive PNW regional win. They had a low, fast, smooth robot that only held one tetra at a time and probably couldn't stack the third tetra on the center goal. What they could do was split the field like an NFL running back, and never fumble a tetra. NOBODY at our regional handled as well as 492. Their driving team was exceptionally skilled, too. I want to be them when I grow up.

More congrats to our down-the-road pals at Titan Robotics.

[Rick TYler]

thanks but i have to agree swamp does good and also don't forget the bionic tigers 1592 they are rookies but they stack an average of 4 to 5 which is still a good amount and ohh yeah i had a great time driving with you tytus great job

<sulk>
Yeah, well, we stacked an average of four tetras per round (except for the three rounds when someone who will forever remain anonymous immobolized our arm...) and didn't even get picked for the finals.
</sulk>

[Crash852]

Almost forgot... although they didn't score the vision tetra (which I predicted they might), team 492 picked a tetra from the autoloader and scored it on a corner goal in autonomous. They then proceded to cap as many as five other goals per match -- one tetra at a time. Their record was 15-0-2, with a second consecutive PNW regional win. They had a low, fast, smooth robot that only held one tetra at a time and probably couldn't stack the third tetra on the center goal. What they could do was split the field like an NFL running back, and never fumble a tetra. NOBODY at our regional handled as well as 492. Their driving team was exceptionally skilled, too. I want to be them when I grow up.

More congrats to our down-the-road pals at Titan Robotics.
We originally had planned on capping the center goal with the vision tetra in the autonomous program, but in the end we decided not to because we were always about an inch or two off from being able to cap the center goal properly, so on the last weekend, we decided to change the autonomous to capping a corner goal. If we had another week, we would probably have been able to figure out the coding to cap it.

Our driver and arm controllers are actually both new this year (well our driver was the arm controller last year but that's another story). The key to driving really well is to start training really early in the year. Even before the game was unveiled, they had taken out our robot from last year and started to practice and practice. By the second or third week into the season, we have a basic running chassis in which they can use to practice on. If you practice often and early, your drivers can probably achieve the same effectivness as our drivers can.

[Donut]

Our regional only had 1 multiple capping robot, who started to fair badly when teams discovered they could beat them by simply hitting them when they tried to cap multiple tetras at once. The competition was split between single capping robots (980, 498, 1492) and robots that could only cap under goals or had no arm at all (555, 842).

[Masterfork]

<sulk>
Yeah, well, we stacked an average of four tetras per round (except for the three rounds when someone who will forever remain anonymous immobolized our arm...) and didn't even get picked for the finals.
</sulk>
that sucks dude well we thought we were gone in the first round of the finals when both of our alliance team robots had something break to where they were useless luckily they got it fixed :yikes:

[Chris Bright]

I think being able to hold the tetras still is more important than how many you can pick up. I noticed that teams wasted valuable time waiting for their tetras to stay still long enough to cap them. This include robots that can pick up more than one at a time.

[Waynep]

After heated (read belligerent) arguments with Paul Copioli about multiple tetras versus single tetras and human vs. auto to achieve this, I finally gave in after seeing the FLR. Our robot was originally designed to hold 4 tetras and deliver up to 3 at a time, 4 we could do but it was pushing it. Not contending that any multi-stacker is wrong cause with proper strategy they can be deadly, but I am now a firm believer in fast efficient single tetra placement if you want to come out on top at the very end. We were much more efficient and better of an alliance partner after abandoning our initial strategy and completely adopting single tetra delivery from the autoloader. This year's game is all about rapid execution and claiming/reclaiming ownership of goals. If anyone has any doubts watch 217, the TCs, cap and see if you still disagree.
-wayne

[Jim Schaddelee]

I have been watching on the regionals on the net but have not seen a team load and store multiple tetras on there robot from the auto zone . This seem to me would be a faster method of placing and storing tetra due the delay from the human running back and forth. I am interested in any idea or suggestions on if this would be an effective strategy.


Thanks Jim Schaddelee Team 107

[DonRotolo]

<snip> but I am now a firm believer in fast efficient single tetra placement if you want to come out on top at the very end. <snip>

I agree completely. In the NJ Regionals, the teams that were most valuable to their alliances were the ones that could reliably pick up a tetra (Human or Auto station, no difference) and drop it onto a goal, quickly and with stability. The ability to make a triple play (by placing a tetra on a specific goal) is far more valuable than three tetras on a goal. Grippers (like ours) that allow the tetras to swing and flop forced the drivers to waste time waiting for the swinging to stop before they could drop it, and they are vulnerable to another 'bot pushing a little, making the tetra start swinging again...

Don

[Captain Rich]

It is the row making that puts single tetras up. A row with one tetra each is less time consuming than two goals with 3 tetras each to build.

[abeD]

71 did win Boilermaker regional and they store 4 and stack 2 at a time. I am aware that they can also do single tetras but in the finals I saw them doing 2 at a time.

[Alan Anderson]

Team Hammond (71) would typically load four tetras from the Human Player station. I don't believe I ever saw them pick up anything from the Autoload side.

Wildstang (111) had a unique telescoping double hook arrangement that scooped up tetras from both autoloaders as the robot drove by, holding one above the other. They'd easily drop both on the same goal, or could stack them on two different goals if they wanted. I once saw them get bumped as they were trying to score on a corner goal, knocking the tetra loose from their top hook. Instead of falling to the floor, it was neatly caught on the bottom hook, and then quickly scored.

[Mr. Lim]

Most dangerous multi-tetra robots I've seen:

233 - holds two tetras at end of arm, stacks them independantly
71 - holds at least 4 on robot base, usually stacks 2 at a time, but was seen stacking them independantly

A few more I've got my eye on are:
111 - picks up and holds 2 tetras (1 from each autoloader) EXTREMELY quickly - stacks them independantly
1648 - loads at least three, then dumps all tetras onto a single goal - super fast, super simple
469 - didn't seen them in action yet, but they've piqued my interest a lot with their pictures on CD

Some great single cappers I've seen:

45
179
191
217
229
237

All grab one from either human or auto loader quickly, and cap one tetra extremely fast.

Right now, the single cappers definitely have an edge on the multiple tetra machines - with the exception of 233 which IMO is the best robot in the entire FIRST field at the moment.

The advantage probably will sway towards the direction of the multiple tetra machines that cap them independantly. Here's why I think this:

In the most competitive matches, the first 90 seconds or so are "trash time." Alliances will first build their home rows, if they haven't already done so in autonomous mode. The textbook strategy is then to apply pressure on the middle row, and gain control of as much of that as possible. During the last 30 seconds you start seeing alliances trying to steal the opponents home row, and gain a 2nd or 3rd Triple Play row. These last moment home row steals cause at LEAST a 23 point swing in your favour (-10 for breaking up your opponents home row, +10 for creatiing a row for yourself, and +3 for the tetra, for good measure).

This is where I think multiple tetra holders will EVENTUALLY shine. With 30 seconds left, would you rather have 3 robots each holding 1 tetras with the potential to cap 3 different goals without reloading? Or 3 robots each holding 2 or more tetras with the potential to cap 6 or more goals without reloading?

The difference is compounded when you consider that in the last 30 seconds, the strategy is based on striking your opponents home row, which is FAR FAR away from any of your reloading stations. Although 30 seconds is a long time, taking into account the travel time, and pushing and shoving you expect to receive along the way, it is doubtful you'll be able to have time to cap an opponents home row goal, return, reload, then travel down field to do it again.

On the defensive end, multiple tetra holders should also theoretically have an easier time recovering from a home row theft. Assuming the offending robot doesn't stick around to defend its stolen goal (it probably wants to try and go back, reload and re-gain its own home row), multiple tetra robots will have more capacity to over-cap stolen goals without having to waste time reloading.

At the risk of giving away too much, the alliance who can best time their transition from "trash time" to striking at the opponent's home row will create a huge advantage. Multiple tetra alliances should be able to transition earlier in the match due to their larger capacity to score without reloading. Compounded with the better ability to over-cap their own stolen home row goals, I do feel that by the time Atlanta rolls around, the multi-tetra robots will be the ones to watch out for.

But for now, I don't think any of the multi-tetra robots have proven they can do any of this... with the exception of 233 of course... :yikes:

-SlimBoJones...

[pyroslev]

I saw one or two multi stackers but they lacked something.

Teams like 447 impressed me. THey loaded up 3 tetras and then went to work. To me, they took all they need and needed no help. The tetra inserter, Black Pearl?, was also good with multiple insertion. Those two robots left an imprint in my mind.

[Revolverx7]

From what I saw at the SBPLI Regional its not how many you can stack at once, its how fast you can stack. Once you become efficeint at the loading stations you can get a large number of stacks. I was able to average 6 caps per round carying one tetra at a time and refilling at the HP station.

[Paul Copioli]

Key to this game is being able to disperse tetras to multiple goals in a match. Whether it is one at a time, two at a time, or three at a time is secondary (note, I didn't say not important). It is my opinion that a good robot can cap between 4 and 5 goals in a match (including auton), a great robot can cap between 6 and 7, and the "super powers" can get 8 or 9 goals in a match.

We felt that it was a trade off between multiple tetras and multiple goals and decided on the single tetra on multiple goals strategy. You must be able to score on more than 4 goals in a match to be competitive at the Championship (my opinion, of coarse ... where's CarNack when you need him?).

Maybe the best situation is a combo of one multiple tetra scoring robot and two multiple goal scoring robots (i.e. more than 4 goals), but who knows.

It sure looks like the common denominator for regional winner alliances is multiple goal scoring robots.

-Paul

[fredgie]

I know most of you have seen the midwest regionals footage. Teams 71, 111, and 537 won and we were all multiple tetra bots. The advantage is that in the last few seconds we could all cap multiple goals thats 18pts, plus whatever rows we garunteed ourselves. Also if you stack a goal full of tetras fast enough, eventually no one can cap it because it is simply too high. Also in a few of our qualification matches, we would go to the opposite side of the field with 3 tetras and place them all on opponents goals rather quickly. THis strategy is further augmented by our design. From what i've seen we are similar to 469, but can only stack two at a time max but we can both store 4 on ourselves.

Having a fast single stacker is good, but having a fast multiple stacker bot will always be better.