Winning Defensive Allaince? [Archive]

George A.

23-03-2005, 14:38

Ok it ask come up numerous times that an allinace that sacrifices a member to play defense is basically shooting themsleves in the foot. I pose this to you. I'm willing to bet that the winning allaince will have two offensive robot and a robot that is an AWESOME defender.

If two capable teams say "let us handle the offense, and you cover the other allaince" I would let them. Let me put it this way. If 56 and 71, and I were on the same allaince and 56 and 71 said they wanted me to run defense "WHY WOULDN'T I" I know that they are fully capable to handle things on their own. Take teams 11 and 25 for instance (ok I'm a little biased but these are the only two that fit my point) Teams 11 and 25 are two teams that can push anyone around the field They can still cap if need be but their true strenght lies in their beastly drive train. You pair 56, 71, and 11 or 25 together and you have a championship medal around your neck. Everyone is assuming that one robot can only take on one other robot, But as proven at NJ a good defensive robot can keep all three opponents occupied is they're good enough.

So keep in mind that in the elims you get to pick your partners. So their defense isn't going to be some run of the mill defense they're putting up. It's going to be a defense that you pick out yourself.

Just something to consider in these next 5 weeks. Let me know what you think.

Paul Copioli

23-03-2005, 15:04

I'll take the bait. Right now, I'll put up my three offensive bots (and I am being biased) 71, 217, and 229 against ANY combination of 2 offense and 1 defense. My three offense will win 90% of the time. Now, if you put up another highly offensive trio (for argument's sake let's say 179, 233, and 67) I would say my chances are now 50/50.

The logic is very simple: I can put tetras in three places at the same time where you can only put two. This game is about divide and conquer. I'm not saying that blocking won't happen, but that third robot must be able to score and it's primary mission should be scoring.

This is the year of the fingers and not the thumbs (don't ask because it is a long story, just know that offensive robots are fingers and defensive robots are thumbs)!!

There, are you happy? I took your bait. Let the games begin...

Goobergunch

23-03-2005, 15:08

In qualification match #69 at Chesapeake, the Friarbot was used in a primarily defensive fashion. After we capped our opponents' auto-loader-side goal towards the beginning of that match, the Friarbot successfully defended that goal from being stacked by the previously undefeated 007 robot for most of the rest of the two minutes; when 007 got another tetra from their auto-loader, we stayed right on them and prevented them from capping the middle-auto-loader-side goal until time expired. Meanwhile, our two alliance partners had done well enough offensively that we won the match 38 to 17.

So I essentially agree. I think two offensively-geared robots, plus a robot that can cap but can also play defense really well (aka better than we could), will be a winning combination. It may be a primarily offensive game this year, but defense still plays a role in winning matches.

George A.

23-03-2005, 15:15

Swampdude

23-03-2005, 15:41

I'm just going to agree with Paul for the most part, but both sides have their advantages if used effectively. As I've seen both types win and loose depending on the strategies applied.

Ian Curtis

23-03-2005, 15:59

Defense works really well. Defense doesn't necassarily mean strong drivetrain. We figured out in the quarterfinals that with out claw we could grab anyones tetra (who had a stick through the tetra) and either steal of push it out of place. Hence we could play defense on two bots instead of one. If you can dislodge their tetra they have to go back and get another one where just pushign them around just well pushes them around. They just go and try again instead of having to go get another tetra.

nobrakes8

23-03-2005, 17:15

At UTC team 1071 prevented team 230 from scoreing any points. We stole 2 tetra's (6 points and those 2 would have been stacked) and we prevented another two with our arm (another 6 points).. Had we played offense, we would have probably still won, even if we had scored just 1 tetra (we average 4-6 tetra's per match). To be honest, I don't think team 1071 ramed or bumped team 230 it was strictly the arm working

The alliance with team 1071, 69, 126 won the finals match by 12 points, the amount that was stolen and blocked.

I can see the point about 3 teams scoreing vs 2, but that would be a poorly executed defensive plan. Our team knows what types of robots we can block easily and play defense against and we know our limits which is why the few times 1071 does play defense they are sucessful 9 out of 10 times in preventing a team from scoreing.

George A.

23-03-2005, 17:25

Kevin Sevcik

23-03-2005, 17:28

I think the effectiveness of defense lies in your strategy. You need a sort of offensive defense. If you can cap an opponents corner goal and keep them from recapping it, you've stolen atleast 10 points from them. Possibly 20. If your offensive bots can control their own home row and the center and side goal, you've netted yourself a 30 point advantage. That means a little strategy and defense can be equivalent to a robot that can stack 10 tetras.

whakojacko

23-03-2005, 17:36

our winning alliance was 3 cappers. As kevin said, good strategy is important. Strategy helped us a lot versus pusher/defending bots.

Andy A.

23-03-2005, 17:36

A robot that can score a few tetras and then defend those tetras is extreamly valuable. I've seen many matches won because one bot scored a line, and then protected it like an irate mother. To me, defense in this game is defending lines, not nessicarly preventing other teams from scoring. While that has it's place, it seems more productive to either keep your tetras on top, or to breakup opposing lines. As Paul said, a mediocre capper is never going to outscore a good capper flat out, but he can secure a 19 point line and tie up a bot that trys to take it from him. 19 points is a big deal in this game, and I'll take any alliance member that can reliably score me 19 points on my alliance.

The trick is for that team to strike the right balance between being offensive and defensive. It makes sense to use the first portion of the match to secure at least the home row. Once you've decided you've got enough tetras up, it's time to make sure they stay up there. Knowing when to make that switch is difficult, but teams that do that well can be a huge asset.

I think 2 good offensive and one good defensive makes for a reliable allience. 3 offensive bots may post higher scores, but they can't do it every match. Who's going to win the championship? I don't know, but I think that 95 (who happens to be a very defensive bot) has a good shot. But then, I am biased.

Remember- sometimes in FIRST defense really means defense and not just harassing the other bots.

-Andy A.

Josh Fritsch

24-03-2005, 09:25

You guys are missing the point. If one of your robots plays defense, and you picked them for the purpose of playing defense then it won't be 3 on 2, it will be 2 on 2 or even 2 on 1 depending on how good the defense is. That defense robot will prvent another robot from scoring not just sit their and let the other allaince drive all over the field. KEEP THIS IN MIND

I would agree with you except for that the layout of this game, there are a possible 6 goals that you could go for at all times and due to that fact, you will always be closer to one than the person is trying to defend you is. Any good capper should be able to cap without much of a problem if they reach the goal first, even with a little resistance. Ill agree with Paul and stick with my 3 offensive robots :D I am skeptical only because I have not seen it done yet, not seen a successful 2 offensive 1 defensive alliance in the elims win yet personally.

Paul Copioli

24-03-2005, 10:00

A few more clarifications:

1. I didn't say never play defense. I said 2 offensive robots and a defensive robot will not stand a chance against 3 scorers. Some of the best defensive move I have seen are done by offensive robots. If the other team knows that one of your three robots can't score, they already have an advantage.

2. No way can even the best defensive bot shut down two good offensive robots in eliminations. The scoring possibilities are too great and the advantage goes to the offensive robot. Think of it this way: a two on one in soccer (one goal) is very hard to stop. What if both offensive players had a ball and there were 5 other goals to score into? C'mon, there is no way the best defensive bot will stop two good scorers.

-Paul

Stephen Kowski

24-03-2005, 10:26

alright I'll bite Paul. I disagree I think you can have 2 offense 1 defense alliance work well in the eliminations....I have seen defensive robots shut more than one offensive team at a time. Also in a elimination round(s) I watched this exact scenario where three offensive teams were defeated handily by two offensive bots and one defensive. The key was the defensive bot knew when it would and would not get a penalty...moreover they did not have a high torque ability just the ability to cause a nuisance whenever the other alliance went to cap.

Swampdude

24-03-2005, 10:39

The 3rd round pick in alliance selections is usually going to get you a 1-2 tetra capper. So lets say you could instead pick a defensive player that could negate more than 2 caps from any opponents best capper. You've effectively selected a 3 tetra capper. Right?

I personally don't think the best defense will be played with a strong slow drive base. It will require a good arm that can get in the way of caps and get there fast. Shoving bots in goals only works on some designs. But swatting caps or covering goals works all the time. I haven't seen this "smart" defense played yet.

nobrakes8

24-03-2005, 11:17

I would agree with you except for that the layout of this game, there are a possible 6 goals that you could go for at all times and due to that fact, you will always be closer to one than the person is trying to defend you is. Any good capper should be able to cap without much of a problem if they reach the goal first, even with a little resistance. Ill agree with Paul and stick with my 3 offensive robots :D I am skeptical only because I have not seen it done yet, not seen a successful 2 offensive 1 defensive alliance in the elims win yet personally.

This is a movie somebody team 195 had posted here in another post (http://www.spazzzout.com/UTC.wmv). This is the 2nd finals match of UTC where teams 69, 126, and 1071 decided it would be easier to make the match 2 vs 2.

I will be honest 1071 is in no way a "defensive" team. we only played defense in 4 or 5 matches all weekend, includeing Thursday's practice rounds. I think it's important that all teams need to be fast cappers, but having a team that can play defense (not pushing and ramming) but real defense is probably going to be the key to the winning alliances at nationals at some point during the elminiation rounds.

Brandon Holley

24-03-2005, 11:52

Paul Copioli

24-03-2005, 11:53

The 3rd round pick in alliance selections is usually going to get you a 1-2 tetra capper.

Our 3rd alliance member at Detroit (team 301) capped 5 or 6 a match the entire elimination rounds.

I am done debating (not because I don't think it's fun, but because I have to get some real work done) this issue and I will see you all at The Championship. I will give an update from The MidWest Regional on how defensive strategies worked.

-Paul

nobrakes8

24-03-2005, 12:19

I must admit that is very GREAT move by 1071, but I look at it this way...

1071 spent most of the match (if not ALL of the match) defending against 230, which is a great strategy because of how effecitvely they capped. But if all you are going to do is block against one robot, why even bother trying to knock tetras loose if you have a strong drivetrain. The move was amazing by 1071 but it also spent time etc to do it. A robot that could simply keep a robot from scoring at ground level could defend easily against them and also another bot that entered that zone, which did occur a couple times in that match. That is just the way I feel...

Well thats just the way you need to play defense. Our alliance gave us the option to play offense if we choose to. We just felt 69 and 126 could out score any two robots, teams 20 and 173 were awsome teams but the fact of the matter is 69 and 126 outsocred them by 14 points.

Had 1071 not hit the center goal with the tetra and have it fall off, we would have scored 3pts on that goal while 230 was still loading in the human zone.

If 1071 didn't play defense it is safe to say 1071 would have given a MINIMUM of 9 points, not includeing triple plays. (1071 averages 12-15 points per match)

Its realistic to say team 230 would have scored atleast 12 - 18 points not includeing possible triple plays. (230 was averageing like 12 - 15 when they weren't being hit and defended in qualifing).

That movie is probably the only effective way to play defense, which is takeing one team out of the picture and effectivly allowing the other 4 teams to do the scoreing. Had we choosen offense, our alliance would have probably still won, but instead maybe the win would have been by 3-6 points instead of 14.

If we felt (or the alliance captain felt) the other two teams on our alliance couldn't outscore the 2 teams from the other alliance obviously defense would not have been an option.

artdutra04

24-03-2005, 13:19

At UTC team 1071 prevented team 230 from scoreing any points. We stole 2 tetra's (6 points and those 2 would have been stacked) and we prevented another two with our arm (another 6 points)

If any of missed that play, here's the video:
0.6 Mb Video :: stolentetra.wmv (http://www.team228.org/index/multimedia/stolentetra.wmv)

BreakDancingCow

31-03-2005, 20:08

At the Pitt Regional our team played a lot of defense. We were the strongest robot at the place and could push any other bot. We had an arm and were capable of capping, but our drive train was just the best feature.

xzvrw2

31-03-2005, 20:22

[QUOTE=Swampdude]The 3rd round pick in alliance selections is usually going to get you a 1-2 tetra capper. So lets say you could instead pick a defensive player that could negate more than 2 caps from any opponents best capper. You've effectively selected a 3 tetra capper. Right?[QUOTE]

well for one there is only 2 rounds. and for two my team (65) was a SECOND round pick at Midwest and we usually scored about 6 tetras a match. i think our highest was like 8 one time. so that SECOND round pick could get you more then 1-2 tetras.

Allison K

31-03-2005, 20:38

Based on the 226 experience, I'm going to say that 3 offensive bots is the key. In the finals in Detroit, we did the best our first match when we went completely offensive, and the next two matches were progressively worse as we stepped up the defense. We won our first match by a landslide, and lost the second one by 1 point, and lost the third by a lot. I know (well, nothing is ever certatin, but I'm 95% sure) that if I had worried less about defense in the second match we would have won it.

~Allison

dude__hi

31-03-2005, 21:09

I say that a dream team would be two robots that have the ability to stack with a great defense robot.

In our regional in Arizona we finished third overall and eliminated the alliance made up of the 1st and 2nd place ranked teams in the first round of the finals by playing defense. Our little blue bot has a two speed transmission (fast and faster), it is two ounces less than the maximum allowed weight, our frame was made of fiber glass, it drives with four CIM motors running four 10 inch pneumatic tires, two omni wheels (All wheel drive) and a brake that totally stops the robot from being pushed around but it is small enough to fit trough the field tetras ;). We had no problem removing tetras from underneath them by pushing them out.

We didn't have problems maneuvering or pushing other robots around. We built the robot with stability in mind and after the competition there wasn't any significant structural damage on the robot. It even kept most of its paint on.

It has an arm that can place tetras underneath the field tetras or pull them out but the pwm cable kept coming off during matches.

russell

31-03-2005, 21:23

Keep in mind that in order to score most robots require several moments of precise meneuvering. Defense does not require this precision. In Portland we were chosen for our aliance because of our defensive abilities, and we were able to do a reasonably good job preventing the other teams robots from scoring. We just hung out in the center of their side of the field and would dart in and push out of the way any robot that tried to score. The best defense (or offense.... whatever) against this was to try to send the best scoring robot to our half of the field while the other two kept our robot busy.

Lil' Lavery

31-03-2005, 23:15

During the qualification rounds this is a very vailid strategy, as most alliances wont have more than 1 or 2 strong offensive bots. But during the eliminations, particularly between higher seeds or at more competitive events (such as nationals) it wouldnt hold true. In the Chesepeake regional for instance, team 173 was probably the strongest force in the entire regionals. During the finals, team 122 tried to stop them, and let it more or less become a 2v2 match-up. But 173 was able to slip by the opposing defense enough to let them score enough points and to help their alliance to get solid victories on their way to winning the regional. NO defense is perfect, and any strong offensive robot can beat a defensive robot enough to allow them to score enough points to decide the match. Look at the Colorado regional for another example. Teams 118 and 233 were dominant offensive threats. Every opposing alliance would send defensive robots to try and slow them down. Slow them down they did, but not enough to make 233 and 118 lose a single match during the eliminations. 233 adn 118 would crush any opposing defense and win the regional. The example is shown again in VCU. The #8 alliance managed to advance to the finals by playing very tough defense, but they would lose to a stronger offensive alliance. During the first match of the finals, Team 401 (who was on the winning #3 seeded alliance) was knocked down early, limiting them to the 4 points they scored in auto. In the process the robot that knocked them over was disabled (but not penelized or DQed). This is exactly as if they had both just been in a shoving match for the entire match, and niether scored a point. The #3 alliance would win the match. Proving again, for the 3rd time in the 3 regionals I attended, that offense wins matches and championships.

babbish

01-04-2005, 21:00

In the Waterloo regional, the winning alliance (68, 1305, 1241) was extremely defensive. 1241 actually removed their arm to play pure defense! No scoring whatsoever- simply a pure chassis with an incredible drivetrain.

Truck Town had it's arm go down in the finals at waterloo (unplugged victor... grr) and playing with 2 defensive robots for a game against an almost purely offensive alliance ended marvelously with Truck Town's defensive alliance winning not only that game, but the entire regional as well.

I believe the ideal robot is one that can do both well, defense and offense. A good capper with lots of traction and not too tipsy is a scary, scary robot to play against.

Ryan Foley

01-04-2005, 21:29

A few more clarifications:

1. I didn't say never play defense. I said 2 offensive robots and a defensive robot will not stand a chance against 3 scorers. Some of the best defensive move I have seen are done by offensive robots. If the other team knows that one of your three robots can't score, they already have an advantage.

Actually, I have to disagree with you there Paul. At BAE, Teams 121 and 126 were both offensive bots. Their partner, 350 was designed to stack, but played defense throughout the entire elimination rounds.

The finals, 121, 126 and 350 were up against 138, 175 (562 subbed in for them in Final 2) and 58. Now all three of those robots were offensive, yet 121, 126 and 350 were victorious. Although 138, 176, 58 and 562 did extremely well and really gave 121, 126 and 350 a run for their money.

a 2-offense/ 1-defense alliance can beat a 3-offense alliance.

My idea of a winning alliance is 2 strong offensive bots, and a 3rd robot that can cap (although not as well as the other 2) but also has a strong enough drive to play defense.

Ian Curtis

03-04-2005, 12:08

I don't think the drive train is necassary for defense. My team lost a qualifier at BAE simply becuase 1027 laid there arm down on the top of the tetra on a goal we had to stack for a row. They just sat there with there arm. They were going to defend that goal to the end. We couldn't cap becuase of it. Becuase of the aggresive driving penalties this year its all about playing defense on the tetra not the robot.

Lil' Lavery

03-04-2005, 18:27

Yes, but a robot with a weak drive train defending a goal with their arm can be pushed aside.
The problem with defending, especially when your defending a particular goal instead of a robot, it ofren becomes a 2v3 (or 2 and a reduced capability robot, so like 2v2 1/2).
Defense is part of the game, but to dedicate a robot to defending the entire or most of the match is usually a foolish decision. The robots who call to be defended are usually the power house teams. These are the robots can cap score 20-30 points on their own. Even when defended they will still usually score some points. Now you have to hope your other two robots can outscore their other 2 and the few points the defended robot contributes. And that is harder than it sounds, because that defended robot is a powerhouse and is probably ranked pretty high, meaning hes got good alliance partners.
And beyond that defense typically will have higher penalties. Not always more penalties, but the penalty points a defensive robot accumulates will usually be higher than that of an offensive robot. They also run the risk of DQ or decapping as aggressive driving may DQ you, and if you defend goals with your arm you may accidentally knock a tetra off.
And then theirs the matter of the qualifying matches. Most defensive robots arnt as flashy and dont finish as high in the standings as offenseive bots (not that they are lesser robots, but they typically wont be ranked as well), so it puts them at a disadvantage during the selection process. So some alliances will pick a defensive bot knowing their strategy ahead of time. But the problem with that is if you find yourself down in points late in a match, a defensive robot wont be able to help you gain those points back as quickly as an offensive robot would. But if you choose an offensive robot instead of the defensive one, that bot wont be as good for your defensive roll.
Now if you choose to go 3 offensive, you wont have that dilemma. Plus, there are certain situations, specifically late in a match when you have a lead, that you may choose to play defense. Now you can commit 2 or even all 3 bots to that task, and in numbers they can perform better than 1 dedicated defensive bot.

EricH

03-04-2005, 18:45

L.A. Regional. Eliminations. QF1-2. Red won first round with no defense against them. Red: 3 good cappers. Blue: 3 mediocre cappers. Blue sends one robot (851) to disrupt Red's good cappers. 851 somehow tangles up with 330. 330 pulls 851 (defensive) halfway down the field before tipping backwards. The tip disentangled the two bots, and 330 gets up and scores some tetras. 851's defense didn't work. Red won.

Final rounds: 3 good cappers vs. 3 more good cappers. One of Blue's good cappers tries defense. Red won.

My point is this: 2 good cappers and one defender will most likely lose to 3 good cappers.

phrozen solyd

03-04-2005, 18:52

We learned the offense vs. defense lesson the hard way in Sacramento. Our alliance had 2 good cappers, and 1 team with a swerve drive which we sent to play defense.

Result - we lost to the alliance of 245, 766, and 1072, because we couldn't keep up with their offense, even though our defensive bot was harassing them.

In the Silicon Valley Regional, the finals were played between two alliances; all 6 robots could cap at least 4 tetras a match on average.

CyberWolf_22

03-04-2005, 19:00

At LSR our alliance (#6) did do just that we had two robot that could cap very well and one defensive robot that did not even have an arm it was just a very powerful low robot. In our first elimination round this strategy paid off extremely well because our defensive robot stopped the other team from scoring like they normally would and we won both of our matches against the #3 alliance. However, in the semi-finals the #2 alliance had a very good strategy against and we made some crucial error and ended up loosing the match. Even though we lost, I still believe that having a very good defensive robot can have a very high payoff because with out that defensive robot on our alliance I am not sure if we would have won our first elimination round.

Kims Robot

03-04-2005, 20:19

I think it is hard to really debate on this topic. I think given all the teams in the world, if you could pick from all of them, the 3 offensive alliance would win. I base this on the three regionals I saw, and for several reasons.

1. 3 very strong capping teams, can cap anywhere at any time... if one defender is blocking one of the 3, the other two can pick up the slack.

2. Any offensive robot can play defense at any time. All you have to do is get in the way of another team, or put your arm over a goal, or steal a tetra away from another team... and you have defense.

But there is a problem with this, that has already been mentioned. After you get through the top two or three selections in the second teams selected, there are generally no really strong cappers left... and the lower alliances are forced to select a good defender.

This happened to us in rochester & cleveland, we were the 7th & 5th alliance captain, and were left with dbots to choose from. And we lost both times, because 3 cappers could always out score us.

However, in toronto, we were selected by the 1114 & 1305 pair, and all three of us could consistantly score 5-6 tetras per match. We were unstoppable, because each of us could score well, and all of us played defense at one time or another. We guarded the center goal twice, turing other teams away... and our teammates often got in the way of other robots trying to score, alll while the other two of us would run around scoring like crazy.

So my vote, for what it is worth, this year is on the 3 scorers. :D

gobeavs

04-04-2005, 02:23

Just my experience from the finals of the Las Vegas regional -

We were against 2 great cappers(987 and 64) and a defensive robot (1527), and I would say from our standpoint the defensive robot gave us the most trouble. Not saying the cappers weren't on our minds, but the defensive bot is the one who we worried about. In round 1, they pushed us over legally (I don't know how we actually tipped though...first time we have been knocked over when pushed from the bottom), from which we never could recover. In the second match, they continued to present problems to our alliance. I didn't feel confident commiting a robot to counter them, because I felt we needed our whole alliance in there capping. It presented an interesting situation, and overall, they won.

Lil' Lavery

04-04-2005, 17:30

Generally the success of the defensive robots is when an alliance only has 1 really strong offensive bot. The other two are just ok. But if you face an alliance comprised of 3 strong offensive bots, or at least 2, like you will encounter at championship or the stronger regionals, a dedicated defensive bot will not do as well. A defensive bot can far okay if it just has to concentrate on one opposing bot, but when two or more threats are present on the field its efficiency is reduced. If it tries to defend two bots it means it will have to spend more time running in between the two, which will lead to more wasted time. It also increases the chance of penalties as your robot will be speeding at high speeds twoards other robots and loading zones.
But if you decide to focus on one of the offensive bots, the other will probably be able to pick up the slack.
The Colorado regional is probably the best example of this. When teams tried to hinder both 233 and 118 they ended up leaving one, or both, undefended for long enough for them to score at least one tetra. When they tried to focus on one (usually 118), the other would score several tetras and would handily beat the other alliance. Most the matches werent even highly competitive.
Look at what Team 71 did for more proof. They won purdue by basically forcing the opposing defenses to defend them, and allowing their alliance partners to score in their place.
Having a dedicated defensive bot just means you hindering your own offense. You can play almost as effective, if not more effective, defense by just hindering an opposing robot when they are in the same area as you, ect. Keep in mind, many times the best defense is offense. When a defensive bot screws up and lets an opponent cap, he can't reclaim the goal (or if he can, not as quickly). But an offensive bot can quickly reclaim the goal. Many of the best alliances did not play much defense at all (in the sense that this thread has been talking about), rather they just broke up opponents rows with their own caps.