Coaches and the starting line

[Swampdude]

I hate to ask this, but I've searched Q&A and re-read the rules regarding coaches and the player starting line. I see nothing written stating coaches cannot cross that line "ever". Yet I've heard it now from 2 regionals that refs were telling coaches their team would get disqualified if the coach crossed that starting line during a match. I don't know how it got started but I'd like it to get cleared up before our next comp. Hopefully someone from FIRST will see this and broadcast it to the refs that this rule doesn't exist. Or do I need to practice my downhill skiing stance?

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/pics/bin/111204012996.jpg

This guy on the right has a good duck foot thing goin, but the other 2 - rule breakers?

[henryBsick]

The way I understand it, that line is only "there" for the first 15 seconds of the match, autonomous mode. Once auton. is over the line "disappears" and there is only the station's box that limits the motion of any of the floor crew members per team per station. Basically, I agree I don't think, other than the general parameters of the driver's station that there is a limit as to where the coach may move.

[Jeff Rodriguez]

If this happened at 2 regionals, I would like to know if anyone got an explanation from the head ref. If you did, what rule did they cite, or what was their reasoning?

[Bharat Nain]

If this happened at 2 regionals, I would like to know if anyone got an explanation from the head ref. If you did, what rule did they cite, or what was their reasoning?That happen at the NJ Regional too.

[Lisa Perez]

That happen at the NJ Regional too.

Also, the Great Lakes Regional.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Also, the Great Lakes Regional.

Weird. I never heard that and was constantly across the line coaching and never DQ'd or warned. I know I was because I stabbed the plexi once pointing to a goal we really needed.

[Mark McLeod]

We were cited for one foot fault by our coach, but that was for stepping on the larger outside bounding line, never for stepping close to the drivers. It's very hard to check scoring of the floor tetras or to see low-down action up against the wall without stepping closer to the windows.

[Steph]

At both Pittsburgh and Waterloo I was never spoken to or warned about being over the "starting line", and I stand right between our drivers, spending the entire match over it. I would also like to know if there's an explination for the two regionals it happened at, as we still have one left to attend. Interesting...

[slickguy2007]

Another thing that happened was that when we tried to start with the tetra at the beginning of the match. At NJ, we were allowed to position the tetra on the robot so that it leaned on one of the goals(we were allowed to do this according to the refs). At the Buckeye regional the refs told us that this was illegal and that the NJ refs weren't following the rules. I am a little confused about all of this. This was a little disheartening to hear because we started to base our autonomous off of what the NJ refs told us. We had to change our autonomous at the Buckeye regional.


GO 1403!!!

[DarkJedi613]

We were cited for one foot fault by our coach, but that was for stepping on the larger outside bounding line, never for stepping close to the drivers. It's very hard to check scoring of the floor tetras or to see low-down action up against the wall without stepping closer to the windows.
We were? When? I don't remember that - I hardly ever move from inbetween the drivers. (I'm the coach in the middle of that picture there). What do you mean by "foot fault" anyway? A penalty? If so, definitly not - I would have remembered that. No ref ever said anything to me anyway.

I heard from some other teams' coaches that coaches can't step over the line, but the refs never said anything to me at LI or PA and I'm constantly over the line. :confused: I also asked at LI specifically where I'm allowed to walk once the match starts (as in, am I allowed to walk next to my alliance partners), and the answer I got was I had to be within the large box.

[meaubry]

All - I also am not aware of any rule regarding coaches and the autonomous starting line. In fact a Q&A on the FIRST site responded that coaches may go any where within the boundaries - that is why there isn't 3 separate sections.
A coach, clearly, cannot touch the controls - but a foot violation of a rule that doesn't exist?
Please - someone must stop this kind of activity. It doesn't do anyone any good to get a penalty for a rule that is made up by someone without FIRST sanctioning the new rule and posting it for everyone's awareness.
Until it is cleared up - every coach out there must now ask the ref's watching the drivers station what they intend on calling. There are much bigger issues out there, those that make a difference or give a competitive advantage. Rule violations and penalties for actions like this MUST stop.
During our first competition we had to request clarity as to when the drivers could touch the controls. The clock timer on the display at the end of the field or the sound of the bells? Once that was understood, the drivers foot position before autonomous ended was the focus of attention - but never, never, never, in all the years that I have coached, has there been a rule about where the coach can put their feet.
It is up to us to request clear communication - alter behaviour accordingly. Bring up the concerns and issues in an appropriately profession manner and hope that FIRST steps in and assists the ref's in understanding and executing only those that they have sanctioned.
Can anyone please tell us what was the rationale used for calling the violation? Bharat or Lisa?? I don't doubt your word, but can you give first hand dialog between the ref that called it and the coach it was called on?
And - the ruling about tetra positioning was correct at Buckeye (you can't use the goal or playing field to position the tetra) - only your robot.

[Lisa Perez]

Can anyone please tell us what was the rationale used for calling the violation? Bharat or Lisa?? I don't doubt your word, but can you give first hand dialog between the ref that called it and the coach it was called on?

Just for clarification - a referee came over to me at the end of our first match (also the first match of the regional), because I had been over the line coaching for the entire match, and told me as a warning that coaches were by no means allowed over the line. No justification, though.

We did not receive any penalties for that "infraction".

[Swampdude]

I saw a ref from UCF telling Lynn from 386 something. Then Lynn came over to me and said not to cross the line. This happened right as the match was starting, so I tried to comply even though I knew it was bogus. There I was leaning over trying to see and communicate - it was ridiculous. I stepped past the line without thinking about it at one point, and Lynn jumped at me yelling GET BACK!! lol

Then Andy from 233 said he heard the same thing that day, but we both played dumb since we weren't told directly - nor had we seen such a thing in the rules. But then Kit told me it happened again while they (233) were at Colorado this past weekend. So it wasn't an isolated event.

[Ryan Morin]

At the UTC Regional one of the refs told me during our first round that I couldn't cross the line, but after he went to the head ref then came back to me and told me that he was wrong that I could cross the line. So I guess that they aren't very clear on that situation with the refs also.

[Jeff Rodriguez]

If you were told that you couldn't cross the line, and knew that it sounded bogus, why didn't you go ask the refs right after they told you that?
As a coach, you should know the rules best. If the refs told you something that you don't think is in the rule book, it is your responsibility to ask the refs for clarification. That includes them reading the rule to you and explaining themselves.

[Swampdude]

I got word of it right before our match started, then chased off the field into the pit and forgot about it till later. But you're right, that would have been my normal procedure. I think also in the back of my mind, with all the crazy penalties, I didn't want to open that can of worms up with the refs. Play dumb and maybe it will go away. In the pace these competitions move at, challenging the refs usually doesn't happen anyway. For instance we coasted across the finish line after the buzzer and were told it didn't count and the rules supported that. But there's nothing specific about not counting that (I don't think). I'm the type to keep my mouth shut and try to respect whatevers said - but not second hand stuff like that.

[Wetzel]

For instance we coasted across the finish line after the buzzer and were told it didn't count and the rules supported that. But there's nothing specific about not counting that (I don't think). I'm the type to keep my mouth shut and try to respect whatevers said - but not second hand stuff like that.

In that case, you SHOULD have asked. Unless there was something else going on, the field is scored after it has come to rest. You can coast across the line and score, or have your arm backdrive and come to rest on top of a stack and lose a tetra. In addition to that, if there are still robots rolling out there, I know I'm not steping onto the field to score it.

Refs are human. Humans make mistakes. Therefor, refs make mistakes. If you have questions or think something is not in alignment with the rules then please ask us. Have one or two people go and ask the head ref why something was called as such the previous match. We are there so you can play the game and have a good safe time, we are not out to get you.

I can't speak for the rest of the refs, but I like talking to teams between matches. It is a long few days, and a few moments of conversation here and there is nice.

During our first competition we had to request clarity as to when the drivers could touch the controls. The clock timer on the display at the end of the field or the sound of the bells? What answer did you get? We used the on field clock because the bells had a tendency to be wildly off, or occasionally not ring at all.


Wetzel

[meaubry]

What answer did you get? We used the on field clock because the bells had a tendency to be wildly off, or occasionally not ring at all.


Wetzel[/QUOTE]

we were told to ignore the clock and go by the bell - the ref said he couldn't watch the clock and 3 sets of drivers at the same time - but he could watch the drivers and listen for the bell at the same time. Sounded fair enough to me - and he was consistant about telling every team at the beginning of every match (after the initial question and dialog had brought the concern up, in the first place)

[Swampdude]

In that case, you SHOULD have asked. Unless there was something else going on, the field is scored after it has come to rest. You can coast across the line and score, or have your arm backdrive and come to rest on top of a stack and lose a tetra. In addition to that, if there are still robots rolling out there, I know I'm not steping onto the field to score it.


I did ask the head ref (Don Johnston at UCF) he said you cannot cross the line after the buzzer. Here's the match (http://soap.circuitrunners.com/2005/movies/fl/fl_025.wmv)
You will see us coasting in after the buzzer, but were told it didn't count because it's where you are when the buzzer sounds "as per the rules". So I didn't argue, just left it at that. Other people got upset but oh well.

[gburlison]

From '2005 FIRST Robotics Competition Manual: Section 4 – The Game'
I added the italics for emphasis:

<G06> No team member may pass the Starting Line in their TEAM ZONE until the conclusion of the AUTONOMOUS PERIOD. All team members must stay within their alliance’s designated TEAM ZONE during the match. If a team member passes the Starting Line before the autonomous period ends, except to save their controls from a violent collision of a robot into the diamond plate, or leaves their TEAM ZONE during the match, the team will be assessed a 10 point penalty. If a HUMAN PLAYER leaves the HUMAN PLAYER ZONE at any time during the match for any reason other than personal safety, the team will be assessed a 10 point penalty. However, if such actions are deemed by the referee to be so serious to have affected the outcome of the match, the team may be disabled and disqualified.

TEAM ZONE – the region behind the player station wall where the DRIVERS and COACH stand during the match.

In only one place in Section 4 does it place additional restrictions on the COACH compared to the DRIVERS: (once again I have added italics for emphasis)

<G22> During a match, the ROBOTS may be remotely operated only by the DRIVERS and/or by software running in the on-board control system. If a COACH touches his/her team’s controls anytime during a match, the ROBOT will be disabled and the team disqualified.

I could find no rule restricting the movement of the COACH inside the TEAM ZONE.

[Rombus]

At Buckeye i didn't get flagged for walking over the line, infact i was very concerned about crossing that line, until i saw every other coach doing it. I was all over the team box too, and never got flagged, but i was very careful not to break the plane.

We did have a situation with a timer/buzzer sync issue. One time up, everyone crossed the line at 118 seconds, since we all saw it counting down, but no buzzer, one of the other alliance teams got flagged since the ref never heard the buzzer, the buzzer finally sounded almost 5 seconds later. Luckily the ref realized the mistake and it wasn't counted against us in the end.

[Kit Gerhart]

If you were told that you couldn't cross the line, and knew that it sounded bogus, why didn't you go ask the refs right after they told you that?
As a coach, you should know the rules best. If the refs told you something that you don't think is in the rule book, it is your responsibility to ask the refs for clarification. That includes them reading the rule to you and explaining themselves.
There were a lot of other, well, curious rules interpretations at Colorado, like not calling the 30 point penalties on robots which repeatedly drove into opponents in their loading zones collecting tetras. Then, during the quarter final round, they called a few of them, but assessed 10 points rather than the 30 specified in the rules. With all of this going on, we didn't press the point on their "coach can't cross the line" rule. The bottom line is that there appear to be a more-than-normal number of cases this year where the referees don't really know the rules very well, or don't care about properly applying them. I hope this situation is corrected for the Championship.

By now, I'm probably being labeled a "sore winner" or much worse, but it is disappointing to see the "locally conceived" rules that are popping up this year. By the way, I have been a referee ('03 Championship and IRI) and will no doubt serve as a referee again.