Should technical mentors be allowed to help repair robots during finals?

[eugenebrooks]

This thread is intended for the discussion of the rule that only allows the four members of a driver team and one "runner" to access the robot during repairs during the finals matches. I am aware of instances of non-uniform enforcement of this rule, but hope that this thread is not used to discuss how the rule is enforced, please start a different thread for that purpose.

So the question is, why shouldn't a limited number of technical mentors be allowed to assist the driver team in the repair of a broken robot during the final elimination rounds, in the staging area where robots and driver teams wait for their next finals match? What harm could come of such a rules change, and what good could come of it? Why should the driver team be on its own during this time?

[Andy Baker]

Good question.

From my experience, it really depends on the venue. Some regionals have room for a "pit crew" to join the drive team in the queing area. Some regionals don't have this luxury.

It is great to have the ability to have a pit crew available to work on the robot between matches in the finals. Last year, at the Championships in Atlanta, 3 pit crew members were allowed to join the drive team for the elimination matches.

Andy B.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

I thought that finals, (Atlanta last year and Houston) allowed two additional people to hang out near, but not on, the playing field to manage the mobile pit and battery changing. If you would normally be allowed in the pit between matches where there is plenty of people, why would you prevent anyone between finals matches? I think the two or three is good rule to stick with even if it isn't spelled out somewhere.

[jdhawg]

I thought that finals, (Atlanta last year and Houston) allowed two additional people to hang out near, but not on, the playing field to manage the mobile pit and battery changing. If you would normally be allowed in the pit between matches where there is plenty of people, why would you prevent anyone between finals matches? I think the two or three is good rule to stick with even if it isn't spelled out somewhere.

At the Lonestar Regional last year, I was the 'runner' who toted the batteries back and forth to the pits. I don't recall anyone telling me that I couldn't work on the robot if it broke, but we didn't have any problems so it didn't really matter. At the Championship Event, we had the drive team as well as three or four Mentors/Engineers on the floor of the Georgia Dome during our division finals. It was a good thing, too. Our robot took quite a beating and we did a lot of repairs between matches. We had to wear a special sticker that authorized us on the floor, but these weren't given out until the time came to move the robot to the arena floor.

[Allison K]

I think it mostly has to do with the venue size. In Pittsburg we were allowed to have 8 people around the field, but in Detroit (Read: really small venue) we could only have 5. Both regionals we were allowed to swap out team members, so it didn't have to be the same 8 or 5 the whole time, just no more than 8 or 5 at once. Also at both regionals the extras could be adults or students.

[Chris Fultz]

At Purdue and Chicago, we were told that only 4 could be in the staging area. They could swap badges, but only four at a time.

This was direction from Bob Hammond bith times.

[ConKbot of Doom]

In Philly we were allowed 2 additional people, so 6 total on the floor. But this year I was the arm operator, Our driver was the leader of the machining group, our coach was a machinist. So we were pretty much set if anything happened.

Of course I know that some people would gasp that we weren't trained since before the kickoff, and they would almost pass out at the fact that we were selected at our first regional. But we did good enough. :D

[Paul Copioli]

Detroit allowed the swap out. It was pretty cool to see: The four on filed members (human player, arm operator, driver, and me) did a tag team/badge swap and let the three student/one mentor pit crew take over.

The drive team stood on the side and relaxed while the pit crew folks did their thing. We swapped back and everything kept on truckin'.

I remember just sitting back and watching the four pit crew people just crank through their checklist and come over to us and say, "she's all yours!" ... it was pretty cool.

Atlanta last year allowed one or two additional people. I wonder what they will come up with for this year.

[Ken Patton]

At Purdue and Chicago, we were told that only 4 could be in the staging area. They could swap badges, but only four at a time.

This was direction from Bob Hammond bith times.

It wasn't enforced in Chicago.

[Ryan F.]

It wasn't enforced in Chicago.
I think they allowed this because of the large amount of space right behind the field. In fact, I never noticed them check our operator badges during the competition. This year though really highlighted the benifits of having people significantly involved in the build season on the drive team. We were in 3 back to back matches where something broke every time. We were able to go out there and fix it quickly. Also, I don't know if it was against the rules, but they let one of our mentors come out to the field between one of the matches.

[DarkJedi613]

At SBPLI - they never allow a pit crew to come in, but when our robot broke (the extension on the arm got stuck in a pulley), we kinda just pulled it over to the curtain so some of the mentors and I worked on that while other people worked on the end of the arm (which broke).

At Philly last year we were allowed to have a two member pit crew, but this year we didn't have any (though we didn't need any either).

I think its good to allow 2 or 3 in with the robot, afterall the drivers don't always know how to fix it. And the issue of adults, yes they should be allowed (perhaps say 1 adult and 1 or 2 kids though?) because they can often be calmer then students and kept the entire pit crew calmer (and safer).

[Lil' Lavery]

I remember during the finals in VCU this year, when 401 had a problem with their arm, they just sat the robot next to the edge of the curtain, and had extra people reach over the curtain to help fix it.
Also, on many occasions Ive seen members of the other teams on the alliance help repair robots.

[KenWittlief]

Ive always said that all the magic at the events happens in the pits

I cant imagine any reason to keep a team from decending on a broken robot to fix it, esp in the playoffs / finals

what could possibly be more impressive than robo-pit-stop action right there on the side of the field?

why force a team to tag-team the repairs with only 4 or 5 people?

[cbolin]

I like the idea of a team being allowed to work on bot during the finals. It would be disappointing to win/lose the championship because an opponent/alliance member's bot was down because the expertise was not available to affect a quick repair.

In the mean time we have done this to help out the drive team (all four are high school students...no mentors).

1. The transporter for the bot has drawers and cabinets for stocking most required tools, some replacement parts and up to 10 fully charged batteries.
2. We have a trained mechanic and an electrician on the drive team. If they can't identify/correct the problem in just a few minutes then there is a good possibility that the pit crew wouldn't do any better.

However, if space permits, I would like to see mentors and other students help repair the bots in the finals while standing in the queue.

Regards,
ChuckB

[Greg Needel]

at buckeye 1511 bent an axil and there were about 10 people inside the hotzone fixing it...i really think that people in this thread nailed it, that it comes down to space in the venue. i really wish they would give out 5-6 badges at nationals for the same reason so that it would be possible to utilize the 45 mins of cue i am expecting...lucky our driver is one of the lead builders (73)

[rees2001]

I remember the mass chaos that happened last year at the Newton Feild Finals when Hot's cable snapped and they came crashing down from 10 feet up. I don't think there was a problem letting other's join the group to get the work done. We were sooooo far away from the pits that the work had to get done there.

Similar thing happened last year at Buckeye when one of our 2 hooks broke. It was weird. We were all up in the stands and as soon as it happened about 5 kids jumped out of their seats and ran (safely) back to the pits to get the tools and fix the robot.

With the game as fierce as it will be at Championship, and the robots having played in more matches than usual, I believe it will be important for teams to have pit crew members help out with repairs on Field.

[Jon K.]

At both UTC and Chesapeake, 2 pit crew members were allowed on the field at a time, plus you could get a third by giving up the coach badge.

[TimCraig]

I remember being told this rule at Sacramento last year. I spent the entire time since hammering it into the club members that if they wanted to be on the drive team on the floor, they had to demonstrate a good working knowledge of the robot to be able to fix it should be be lucky enough to reach the finals.

This year I looked specifically for the rule as I also saw it not being enforced and couldn't find it. Can anyone point me to where this is written?

[Brant Bowen]

I remember being told this rule at Sacramento last year. I spent the entire time since hammering it into the club members that if they wanted to be on the drive team on the floor, they had to demonstrate a good working knowledge of the robot to be able to fix it should be be lucky enough to reach the finals.

This year I looked specifically for the rule as I also saw it not being enforced and couldn't find it. Can anyone point me to where this is written?

I looked for rules on this during the Boilermaker Regional, but couldn't find anything on it. I couldn't understand at the time why we were only allowed to have the 4 member drive team on the field when other regionals had allowed pit crew memebers to join the team.

Another concern I had at the competition was who the Alliance Captain has to be. During drafting the referee told us that the only person who could call timeouts and substitutions was the alliance captain. If the representative the team chooses is not on the drive team shouldn't he or she be allowed into the queing area to speak to the referee? At Boilermaker they wouldn't even let the Alliance Captain into the field area without a badge. Again there is no rule on any of this. I think defined rules for next year would make the elimination process much easier and smoother.

[Jon K.]

I looked for rules on this during the Boilermaker Regional, but couldn't find anything on it. I couldn't understand at the time why we were only allowed to have the 4 member drive team on the field when other regionals had allowed pit crew memebers to join the team.

Another concern I had at the competition was who the Alliance Captain has to be. During drafting the referee told us that the only person who could call timeouts and substitutions was the alliance captain. If the representative the team chooses is not on the drive team shouldn't he or she be allowed into the queing area to speak to the referee? At Boilermaker they wouldn't even let the Alliance Captain into the field area without a badge. Again there is no rule on any of this. I think defined rules for next year would make the elimination process much easier and smoother.

It is suggested at most regionals that it be a member of your drive team. And if for some reason this is not the case, then they suggest you transfer the bib.

[EricH]

According to Update 19, the robots will have a pit crew on field during finals. This pit crew will be three persons. No designation of students or mentors.