POLL: What surface do you want to see? [Archive]

Rombus

31-03-2005, 00:47

So carpets getting a bit boring eh? So what would you pick? Here is an explanation of the choices:

Pure Water:
100% water playing field, robots have to float or be subs

Water/Other Surface:
a mixed playing field, Say like a river in the middle of the field, or islands

Ice:
Same as our current field, but made of ice, either smooth or like a curling surface

Rocks:
Same as current field, but made of rock, Rocks similar to stone/gravel used for driveways.

Dirt:
Same as current field, but made of dirt, loose/slightly packed/hard packed, doesn't matter!

Moonscape:
Mix of Dirt and Rock, alot more "off road" than rock or dirt field. Would have more of a rolling terrain with a mix of heights and lows

Keep it the same:
You love the carpet, and dont want to see it change!

Josh Hambright

31-03-2005, 01:03

you forgot to put corn on the list. I wanna see them take it back old skool on everybody!

jpsaul7usa

31-03-2005, 01:04

We just got a heap-load of carpet (thanks to Don Knight and Team 60 for helping us get it!) and next season will be the first time we have a large area of carpet to practice on. That, and water/dust will interfere with field and robot electronics and make the field setup more complicated. And ice certainly wouldn't be too popular here in AZ since it wouldn't last long. All good reasons why carpet is king! More slippery plastic surfaces like in 2003 and 2004 would be fun though.

you forgot to put corn on the list. I wanna see them take it back old skool on everybody!Whaaa? Could you elaborate? I don't know anything about games before 2002 and this sounds interesting.

Ali Ahmed

31-03-2005, 01:37

I would like to see a change in the field but to a more manageable surface other than water or ice. You have to keep in mind the field setup and take down times. Water or ice would be hard to manage but I would love to see how teams protect their electronics and stuff. Dirt or mud wouldn't be that bad but it would be messy, you would see a lot of dirt in the pits too. I say make the whole field out of panels of HDPE.

sanddrag

31-03-2005, 01:47

Maybe recycled tires. Or the whole floor covered in "river rock" type small boulders. Something irregular. Something that needs suspension or artiulation of the drive system of some sort. Or maybe a field with a pit of PlayPlace plastic balls.

EDIT: The more I think about it a long trough (pit) of playplace balls (deep) that splits the field in half would be awesome. And the only way to score is on the other side. I bet getting across those would be harder than you think because you wouldn't sink to the bottom, yet the top is not rigid/stable. Hrrrmm...

NoodleKnight

31-03-2005, 05:52

Instead of ice, use hdpe or delrin, almost as slippery.

jpsaul7usa, in 1992 the competition field flooring was corn.

Ryan M.

31-03-2005, 07:46

Whaaa? Could you elaborate? I don't know anything about games before 2002 and this sounds interesting.Maize Craze from FIRST's first (I think) year. The field was a hexagon filled with corn. I think. I don't know anymore than that. :)

Obviously, I'm not too sure either... :rolleyes:

And I'm going to have to say carpet is what's it's going to be. FIRST doesn't seem to do "messy" things. (Just think if they penalized for "damaging the playing field" :ahh: )

Josh Hambright

31-03-2005, 07:49

from the videos that andy baker has that i have seen and from what i have been told. It was infact called maize craze and it involved driving around in corn and collecting tennis balls, there was only 1 competition that year, none of the regional stuff we see today, and the robots were tethered. Some of the robots still exist, but i can only assume that they are merely museum pieces now.

Steve Howland

31-03-2005, 08:53

Some of the robots still exist, but i can only assume that they are merely museum pieces now.

Last year at the Battlecry@WPI offseason they brought back some of the originals and made a scaled-down field. Then between certain matches they had matches with the original robots, tethers and all. There are pictures of it here. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/pictures.php?s=&galleryid=164&perrow=5&trows=10&quiet=Verbose&direction=DESC&sort=date)

DarkJedi613

31-03-2005, 08:54

Water would be neat...but theres only two waterproof items on our (as in team 358's) robot. The PVC on the arm and the main circuit breaker. :p

I think the carpet works well, though Stack Attack was neat with the grating and stuff...

SuperJake

31-03-2005, 09:24

I think those options are cool and all, but not practical (as discussed in other theads. I like obsticals on the field that make things more interesting. Like in 2000, there was that large goal/ramp/bar structure in the middle of the field. you could go under the goals and over the ramp - lots of fun. The teeter-totter bridge in 2001 was alright with the bar you could go over/under. I wasn't a big fan of the platform in 2003 - there was too much falling off the steps.

I think it would rock if there was some sort of elaborate obstical course on the field. Something other than flat ground. Ramps are deffinetly the way to go so everyone can play without giving much thought to field mobility. having ramps or other barriers on the field make it really interresting to watch. If the scoring or robot interaction isn't exciting, or is too complex for a person off the street to understand, it is still fun to watch robots traverse different terrains.

I think the 2001 game with the bridge in the field was the most fun. Even if you had no idea what was going on, it was fun to watch how different teams would get their alliance across the field. All 4 'bots can't fit on the bridge at the same time, so someone has to reset the bridge for someone else... really fun stuff to watch even if you didn't understand the scoring of the game.

It also gave a good mix of complexity for the more advanced teams. If you want to get everyone over to the other side of the field as efficiently as possible, the more advanced teams learned to do things without the ramp (Robocong from 25 was the coolest in my mind). Also, Wildstang (111) became the ramp moderator to ensure efficient use of the ramp. Lots of roles for everyone!

BaldwinNYRookie

31-03-2005, 15:18

Ooooo, such a tough decision... I think the water would be cool but I doubt it would ever happen, who decides what goes as far as the field and game play? Is it Dean Kamen that makes the final choice?

Rombus

31-03-2005, 15:27

I know chances of anything BUT carpet or something very manageable (i like the sheets of slick stuff idea) are slim, but i figured it would be cool to see something a bit more complex. Personally, i would like to see a rock or moonscape surface myself, that wouldn't be too "dirty" but still give an off road feel to the game.

jpsaul7usa

31-03-2005, 15:47

...who decides what goes as far as the field and game play? Is it Dean Kamen that makes the final choice?
There's a FIRST game committee that makes the decissions with regards to the game design and rules. I expect either Dean Kamen, Woodie Flowers, or Dave Lavery is head of the committee, but that their votes count just like the other members'. If anyone else knows more about the process I'd love to hear about it.

DarkJedi613

31-03-2005, 17:01

I wasn't a big fan of the platform in 2003 - there was too much falling off the steps.
2003 was Stack Attack - there was a ramp, 2004 was the steps. :)

BaldwinNYRookie

31-03-2005, 17:26

Whatever the game is I do think the field should be bigger. It get's cramped especially with six robots on the field at a time.

And though this is my rookie year I got to see last years field at the Brunswick Eruption earlier this year, and I do prefer last years field. It gave a team more options. Do you want to herd balls, cap those whatchamacallits with the bigger yellow balls, hang your robot (which was much more dramatic to watch than anything I've seen in this years game), or all three?

GennyMS

31-03-2005, 17:29

We're the Hammerheads, it would only make sense that we have a water comp. we're great swimmers.

On a serous note. Yes the field was cramped this year and I believe they did make it bigger but next year for all we know it could just be two teams on the field (its size doesn't really concern me to much) its all part of the game.

Pin Man

31-03-2005, 18:30

Koko Ed

31-03-2005, 18:55

Allison K

31-03-2005, 19:02

Water is defintly not going to happen... As much as I would love to see it... But I mean robots, high schoolers, and water is not a great mix... I would like to see something with tunnels and or something like that...

Tunnels would be cool. Possibly something like the 2003 center structure, but a tunnel with game pieces underneath. Robots could use the CMUcam to find the game objects.

~Allison

F-14tomcat222

31-03-2005, 19:07

Water would be awesome, and I really dont think waterproofing would be that hard. If the task required mobility you could build a hovercraft ( I know my whole team thinks i'm crazy too :rolleyes: ) but seriously it could work. It would also be cool to have an ice like field where traction would be limited. I'd have to say there are a lot of possibilities, and the field needs a change if for no other reason than to add an extra twist.

Clark Gilbert

31-03-2005, 19:08

I think a mixture of carpet and "moonscape." For the rocks use something like a lava rock and a fine pebble rock (to mix it up a bit). Maybe put some sort of bumps made from wood under the rock mixture.

Jeffmudhs

31-03-2005, 19:12

I wouldn't expect to see a full field thats based on a slippery surface, simply because of the safty factor involved.

Also a water field, also seems unfiesable because of:
-Time to setup
-Time to make the field water tight
-Amount of water needed
-Amount of space and labor needed
-Making a completely airtight robot would really heat up your motors and electronics
-electricty hazard.
-If your robot fails and sinks would it be difficult to retrieve? :confused:

Carpet is deffinatly the better choice, but they should go with different carpet types. I mean, who wouldn't want to run robots on Shag Carpet?

I would love to see something like 03's ramp agian.

dlavery

31-03-2005, 20:13

Water is defintly not going to happen... As much as I would love to see it... But I mean robots, high schoolers, and water is not a great mix... I would like to see something with tunnels and or something like that...

There is one very simple, straightforward little fact that makes is explicitly clear that we will never, ever have a water-based game in FIRST:

It would require that Dave wear a bathing suit.

OK, now that you have that nasty litttle image burning in your mind, go ahead and try to get some sleep tonight.

-dave

Koko Ed

31-03-2005, 21:28

Sgraff_SRHS06

31-03-2005, 21:40

I picked Other. I'd like a steel surface with different obstacles. The field would also be raised from the main ground by a considerable amount so everybody can see the game.

Vince

31-03-2005, 21:43

Hmm.... water and robots. Sounds like something the Coast Guard Academy might do as a summer outreach program..... (http://www.cgateamusa.org/gallery/outreach)

Pin Man

31-03-2005, 21:44

Hee hee. :D (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=342302&postcount=17)
I LOVE IT! haha... *whistles* Mr. Lavery in a bikini! hahaha

Allison: maybe like video cameras on the robot to with night vision to see in the tunnels and the drivers look on a comp screen or something...

Jay H 237

31-03-2005, 22:27

Something like chain link fence or some type of grating is always interesting.

Also even easier for field set up would be to have something like landscaping 6x6's dividing the field. You could either drive over them or be forced to go around them.

Another option would be to create "rollers" for the robot to cross in an area of the field made out of pvc pipe laying horizontally.

(hint...........hint, Dave ;) )

Rombus

31-03-2005, 22:41

Wow, alot of cool ideas:
Tunnels would be very interesting, i had another interesting idea with use of cameras:
What about having the drive team in a box of some sort, there only inputs are a field spotter with a radio, and a cam on the bot?

Also another note to everyone here: We all know chances of water and ice are nill, but if you want to see it, pick it :) I'm quite surprised this thread went so well so far! Alot of great ideas!

MissInformation

31-03-2005, 22:55

There is one very simple, straightforward little fact that makes is explicitly clear that we will never, ever have a water-based game in FIRST:

It would require that Dave wear a bathing suit.

OK, now that you have that nasty litttle image burning in your mind, go ahead and try to get some sleep tonight.

-dave

Hmmmm... I'll have to see what I can work on... ;) In the meantime, everyone will just have to enjoy this random effort (http://www.factorfantasy.com/thedavegallery/photos/theking.jpg)

And to contribute to the actual thread, while it was a tad frustrating watching our robot try to get up the ramp in stack attack, the multiple surface types was really cool, so I wouldn't mind seeing that again!

Heidi

team222badbrad

31-03-2005, 23:17

Astro Turf or other similar "fake grass."

I really want to see real grass, now that would be a sight to see!

Say good bye to carpet burns and hello to grass stains! :rolleyes:

Carpet = Old, at least make it colorful, next year!

NuclearPeanut

09-04-2005, 17:04

i'm still stuck on the whole corn thing... thats freaking awesome!
i think they should bring the corn back, it would be amazing :ahh:

angelofsumthin

09-04-2005, 17:19

corn wud definatly rock
like....wow
tunnels sounds good....and the camera nightvison screen is an awesome idea
i think FIRST sound allow air cannons
not that they wud ever.....but i think it wud be fun

Kevin Sevcik

09-04-2005, 17:33

I will enter a plea for sanity here. Specifically the sanity of rookies and volunteers. Waterproofing, suspensions, and other things necessitated by exotic surfaces will really be a problem for rookie teams. I think they have a hard enough time as it is even with a robot in a box. At the very least Andy and the others would have to develop other out of the box solutions for all these problems. Especially waterproofing. A 12V motorcycle battery being dropped in a puddle of water would be a ugly sight. As for corn... it'd be a nifty surface to work on, but look at what our teams are capable of with drivetrains. I can easily see teams peeling out and sending corn spraying over the entire arena.

However, astro turf would be neat. Or maybe rubber or the plastic flooring like they laid out at nationals in florida. More slippery HDPE ares would be interesting too.

Denman

09-04-2005, 18:03

here where i work, we have a surface made out of rubbery stuff, in a criss cross pattern. its nice on your feet and quite good. But i think it would be interesting for a floor.
I notice that 3 of hte suggestions involve water....
i'm going to refer to kevins post above for that

I do like the carpet though. Maybe something that will be more durable so we can build mega grippy wheels without risk of leaving rubber marks or anything. (you should see teh carpet in the only largish space we have available...)

dubious elise

09-04-2005, 20:58

I may have said this in a different thread already, but I would love to see something like Jello. You can't have too much traction without tearing up the field, and it would probably limit the speeds very well. Though, I can't see FIRST really enjoying the idea of pouring a new layer of jello before every match...

Another interesting idea would be to use grass or sod. More traction than carpet alone, but with the added hazard of the individual blades clogging up gearboxes.

Bill_Hancoc

09-04-2005, 21:50

What if you had an urban scenario kind of field, sort of suppose an office building or maybe a store where you have real life obstacles (desk or a shopping cart). I dont know how you would do it but it would be cool

Rombus

09-04-2005, 22:04

@Kevin and Denman

As i stated before, the chances of FIRST using any form of water in a field is nill, hence the title "What surface do YOU Want to see?" Not "What surface will FIRST use next?" We could come up with a list with more than 100 problems a water field would represent. But while i wanted to stay with realistic surfaces, i wanted people to choose what they would want to compete on if they had the chance

That being said:
You bring up the point of rookie teams, sure it would present a problem to them to play on water, or on something that would require suspension, but what about the vet teams? Water and ice is something unknown any team, And while the Engineer mentors from GM, Chysler, and any other field(Except water craft :D) could apply there basic knowledge, do you think those engineers would have any better chance of building a working water based robot than a rookie team with some skill? It might be interesting to see how those vet teams do on something completely foreign to them :D

In any case, I never expected this thread to get so big and have so many views, Thanks everyone!

evelyn1503

09-04-2005, 22:08

i think it wiold be cool to have tha playing felld of ice it would change things defonetly

Chris Sturrock

09-04-2005, 22:48

well call me boring. but I just like the carpet.

so simple, and you dont have to make any special modifications, and it will still be simple to drive.

Shankar M

09-04-2005, 22:53

Water would be really cool, but a lot could go wrong. But considering that we'd all like to try and get some practise before going to a regional I think the only surface that could really work is carpet.

All that aside, my vote goes for ice, that would be AWESOME:D, and very doable too as regionals are held in arenas.

Karthik1

09-04-2005, 23:02

Something new is always fun, but not water it would simply be impractical. I would prefer carpet with obstacles, and multiple objectives.

Water its actually been done before using the ifi electronics:
(take a look at the pictures and you will know what I mean)
http://wired-vig.wired.com/wired/archive/13.04/robot.html?pg=1&topic=robot&topic_set=

CraigHickman

10-04-2005, 18:33

as a little suggestion to throw out, the game would be pretty insane with 8 teams, an octagonal field, filled a foot and a half deep with packing/shipping popcorn. now that would be crazy.

pyroslev

13-04-2005, 13:34

If you want to compete robots on a dirt field, go ahead. However, we got mentors and kids (More mentors though), that would think of something insidiously insanse that would be as fast a dirt track care but as quick(moves) as a dirt bike or 4-wheeler.

However, why we got to stay on the ground. Why not make a field that would make it a neccessity for a flying robot.(Not that one this year would not have been to insane given the game...)

Just some ideas.