YMTC: Redateam Uncrates Redabot on Wednesday

[Natchez]

You Make The Call (YMTC) is a series of situations where you are the official and make the call. Please reference specific rules when applicable. The results of YMTC are not official and are for educational purposes only.

Redateam arrives into Hartsfield International Airport on Magnolia Airlines at 6:15 pm the Wednesday of Championship week. Two Redateamers rush over to the Georgia Dome with all of the Redateam's tools. After registering, the members begin to uncrate Redabot that had been disassembled after a trip to the finals at the Magnolia Regional. The Redabot base comes out first, then the arm is removed from the crate, then the tower, and finally the controls leave the wooden box. Ten minutes later, the team members have Redabot assembled and are completing a full-function checkout. At 8:30 pm, the Redateamers leave all their tools along with Redabot in their pit and leave the Georgia Dome mumbling, "I can't believe that we have a bent axle!"

Based on the 2005 Rules, YOU MAKE THE CALL!

[Kyle]

The team should just uncreat all of the robot parts and set up the batteries, save the other stuff for Thursday morning since they are able to put the robot together in under 2 hours they surely can do it Thursday morning.
It is illegal

[dlavery]

Not sure why this one is even a question.

From the FIRST e-mail blast:
The Wednesday pit opening is designed for uncrating robots, confirming ship weight, and charging your batteries. Please do not work on your robots or assemble pit booth displays on Wednesday!

uncrate
Pronunciation Key: (n-krt)
v. un·crated, un·crat·ing, un·crates

1. To remove the contents from a container, such as a slatted wooden case, used for storing or shipping.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition


"Uncrate robots" means exactly that. Open the box. Remove contents from box. Put contents off to one side (in the pit). Close box. Remove box from pit area. Period.

"Uncrate robots" does NOT mean "Open the box. Remove contents from box. Put contents off to one side, and then start putting them together because we are bound and determined to push and bend every rule until the breaking point because we want to get every competitive edge possible no matter what the consequences and no matter what example of professional behaviour we are setting, and even though the meaning and intent of "uncrate but don't work on the robot" is absolutely clear we are going to pretend that it is not and play lawyer and argue the exact wording so that we can have our entire robot in competition form ten minutes ahead of everyone else and then we can go and eat donuts."

If Redateam does this, then they have clearly violated the rule and:

1) have no one but themselves to blame for shipping their robot in a partially-assembled state rather than as a complete unit,
2) need to suck it up and wait until Thursday morning to spend the ten minutes needed to assemble the robot, and
3) should have to make amends for their violation, by providing fresh Krispy Kreme donuts for EVERY member of EVERY team competiting at the Championships in the Georgia Dome.

-dave

[Kevin Sevcik]

I have to say that I think the point being made is that this isn't, in fact, a rule. I can't say for certain because the FIRST website is down and I can't pull up the rules on when you're allowed to work on bots. Yes, it's against FIRST's wishes and isn't really the right thing to be doing, but it's not a rule. It's not even strongly worded. With all the context around it in the blast and the "please don't...." it sounds vaguely like they just want to make sure you finish getting your stuff uncrated and get the crate out of the way so they don't fall behind. A simple change to "You may not..." would've made things 100% crystal clear.

Devil's advocate aside, I still won't be working on the robot. Partially cause I will personally be getting there too late to uncrate and also because it's not right.

[dlavery]

I have to say that I think the point being made is that this isn't, in fact, a rule. I can't say for certain because the FIRST website is down and I can't pull up the rules on when you're allowed to work on bots. Yes, it's against FIRST's wishes and isn't really the right thing to be doing, but it's not a rule. It's not even strongly worded. With all the context around it in the blast and the "please don't...." it sounds vaguely like they just want to make sure you finish getting your stuff uncrated and get the crate out of the way so they don't fall behind. A simple change to "You may not..." would've made things 100% crystal clear.

Devil's advocate aside, I still won't be working on the robot. Partially cause I will personally be getting there too late to uncrate and also because it's not right.


Yes, it is a rule. See <R15>.

[Kevin Sevcik]

I stand corrected. I thought that rule was around, but couldn't find it thanks to usfirst.org not working. From FIRSTsearch, for those curious:
<R15> At the competitions: Teams are allowed to repair, modify or upgrade their competition robots while participating in a competition event event. To support this, teams may bring SPARE, REPLACEMENT and UPGRADE PARTS and COTS items to the competitions (within the limits specified in Rules <R23> and <R24>). Work may only be done on-site in the Pits or at any facility made available to all teams at the event (e.g., in a team’s repair trailer or a local team’s shop offered to all teams to use). Fabrication may be done when the Pit area is open for normal operations during the period starting with the opening of the Pit area on Thursday and ending at 4:00PM on Saturday. All work must be completed when the Pit area closes each evening. Parts may not be removed from the competition site and retained overnight after the Pit area closes.

[AmyPrib]

Put contents off to one side, and then start putting them together because we are bound and determined to push and bend every rule until the breaking point because we want to get every competitive edge possible no matter what the consequences and no matter what example of professional behaviour we are setting, and even though the meaning and intent of "uncrate but don't work on the robot" is absolutely clear we are going to pretend that it is not and play lawyer and argue the exact wording so that we can have our entire robot in competition form ten minutes ahead of everyone else and then we can go and eat donuts."



This is the longest sentence I've read in a long time :) - but I fully agree with every word. Let's not be silly, you all know what it means - don't work on the robot. I think it's great that they have opened it up to allow Wednesday night uncrating to help things run more smoothly in the morning.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Aside: How does this apply to setting up your pit with collapsable shelves, etc.? This was allowed for the 3 early entry team members at regionals, so has this changed or not?

[dlavery]

OK, so let's try again. From the FIRST e-mail blast:
The Wednesday pit opening is designed for uncrating robots, confirming ship weight, and charging your batteries. Please do not work on your robots or assemble pit booth displays on Wednesday!

The answer is right there (and please, let's not even get in to any discussions about "they said not to set up 'pit booth displays' but I am going to set up 'pit shelves' which are different, so that is OK..." - the intent here is obvious to even the most casual, moderately intelligent, observer). Uncrate your robot. Plug in your batteries. Leave the area.

-dave

[KathieK]

I think part of the problem with this qestion lies in the fact that I don't believe it was ever put out as a Blast - just as an e-mail to the Team Contact person who may not yet have forwarded it to team members. Therefore they are unaware of the wording from FIRST.

Andy Brockway did post the e-mail, (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36969) however, in the CD FIRST E-mail Blast Forum for anyone who has not yet read it.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

3) should have to make amends for their violation, by providing fresh Krispy Kreme donuts for EVERY member of EVERY team competiting at the Championships in the Georgia Dome.

-dave
Wait.. so all we need to do to have unlimited pit time is buy donuts?


:rolleyes:

[dhitchco]

Good thread and great input by Dave L.

This clarifies that we can't even set-up the pit "shelves", "display", "tables" etc on Wednesday.

That means that on Thursday AM after the pits "officially" open, the guys working on the robot will be tripping over the team building the pit display, who in turn will be tripping over the people bringing the rest of the stuff, and everyone will be tripping over each other to get to those "free" Redabot Krispy Kreme donuts.

I can't wait for the mosh pit! I also am waiting for my Krispy Kreme stock to climb out of the cellar.....

[Billfred]

I think part of the problem with this qestion lies in the fact that I don't believe it was ever put out as a Blast - just as an e-mail to the Team Contact person who may not yet have forwarded it to team members. Therefore they are unaware of the wording from FIRST.

Andy Brockway did post the e-mail, (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36969) however, in the CD FIRST E-mail Blast Forum for anyone who has not yet read it.
It was an email blast--I got it, and I'm not 1293's main contact. (Well, unless Mr. Orr did something that I don't know of!)

If Redateam does this, then they have clearly violated the rule and:

...blah blah blah...

3) should have to make amends for their violation, by providing fresh Krispy Kreme donuts for EVERY member of EVERY team competiting at the Championships in the Georgia Dome.

-dave

Aw, Dave, c'mon--what about the volunteers? Fields don't reset, keep score, queue, and referee themselves! ;)

(And to avoid being off-topic, yes, Redateam is illegal. If I spotted it and ruled the world, I'd shoo them out, then have them disassemble and reassemble it in the morning--effectively making them lose twice the time involved in assembling the robot compared to had they done it legally.)

[dlavery]

Aw, Dave, c'mon--what about the volunteers? Fields don't reset, keep score, queue, and referee themselves! ;)

To quote Marie Antionette: let them eat cake (which will thoughtfully be provided by all the other teams against which Redateam must compete, since they all stayed within the rules and didn't spend a lot of time setting up their pit area on Wednesday evening, and therefore had a lot of extra time to bake up some delectable morsels for all those that will be slaving over the field under the hot lights in Atlanta)!

-dave

[Billfred]

To quote Marie Antionette: let them eat cake (which will thoughtfully be provided by all the other teams against which Redateam must compete, since they all stayed within the rules and didn't spend a lot of time setting up their pit area on Wednesday evening, and therefore had a lot of extra time to bake up some delectable morsels for all those that will be slaving over the field under the hot lights in Atlanta)!

-dave
Er, Dave...I hope they'd be giving us the aforementioned morsels off-site. After all, doesn't section 7 of the manual say not to bring food on-site? (If not, I definitely saw a sign to that effect at UCF, and a few employees standing by a trash can by the entrance to that effect at Palmetto, which might give me that impression.)

I guess ditto for the Krispy Kremes, if that were the case.

--Billfred

PS: The Georgia Dome should SO open up a Krispy Kreme stand for the Championship. Even if they charged normal prices, they'd still make a killing!

[KenWittlief]

I could see a team who had their robot all done, and to pack it into the crate required taking a few parts or assemblies off

and I would call that task 'crateing the robot'

therefore, applying the reverse logic, putting the parts back together that you only took off to 'crate' the robot could be construed as uncrating it.

Obviously thats not the intention of them allowing teams to go in on wednesday night - the intention is to get the empty crates out of the way when nobody is there, which should in theory allow more actually assembly and repair time thursday morning

So I dont think the answer was obvious - this thread does make the answer clear. Once you have everything out of the crate, you are done.

[dez250]

I could see a team who had their robot all done, and to pack it into the crate required taking a few parts or assemblies off

and I would call that task 'crateing the robot'

therefore, applying the reverse logic, putting the parts back together that you only took off to 'crate' the robot could be construed as uncrating it.


And i would call that logic "Lawyerism".

Guys stop trying to find loopholes in the rules and ways around the rules and "being lawyers". On Wednesday you will be allowed to open and empty your crate, register your team and start charging batteries. One point for this is so there will be less congestion of fork lifts and moving crates on Thursday so more people can have their 10'x10' room and set their pit up then. Good luck all teams, and if you think you might be tempted to violate the request of FIRST of not setting your pit up Wednesday night and working on your bot then, wait till Thursday morning to uncrate!

[Kevin Sevcik]

Is there going to be uncrating on Thursday? I know the blast says that wednesday is an additional opportunity, but I don't see any mention anywhere about uncrating on thursday morning, early or no.

[KenWittlief]

And i would call that logic "Lawyerism".

Guys stop trying to find loopholes in the rules and ways around the rules and "being lawyers".

ok then, when these YMTC threads come up, we will all just wait for you to tell us the right answer?

isnt that what these YMTC threads are for, to give people an opportunity to discuss the rules and explore both sides of it?

something that is perfectly obvious to you may look the opposite to someone else. We all have different perspectives.

[Don Wright]

Is there going to be uncrating on Thursday? I know the blast says that wednesday is an additional opportunity, but I don't see any mention anywhere about uncrating on thursday morning, early or no.

There has to be. The announcement was made too late in the season for some teams to change their travel arrangements to get there early Thursday night.

[George]

Hi,
Redabot gets to be a real pain for first.
But "they" bring up a some good questions,
My question is can we bring in tools Wednesday?
(I don,t want to setup the pit or work on the robot)
We are a little out of town and this would be a big help!
I remember the mess last year.(coming and going)
and this year the hotel is 8 blocks(?) away
Have Fun(?)
Geo.

[Wetzel]

Hi,
Redabot gets to be a real pain for first.
But "they" bring up a some good questions,
My question is can we bring in tools Wednesday?
(I don,t want to setup the pit or work on the robot)
We are a little out of town and this would be a big help!
I remember the mess last year.(coming and going)
and this year the hotel is 8 blocks(?) away
Have Fun(?)
Geo.

I know teams that walk in with some screwdrivers or a cordless drill to open the crate(and rookie teams that didn't think about needing tools to open the crate), but I don't know about a whole tool chest. I would hazard a guess that it would be ok, for the congestion and saftey reason listed for allowing a limited number early access to uncrate the robot. Thats a kind of iffy thing though.

Wetzel

[Kevin Kolodziej]

It would seem to me that it would be in FIRST's best interest to allow the three people to bring in as much as they can in one shot. In Chicago, we rolled in our tool boxes and parts boxes on our cart in the morning, uncrated the robot, and then sat until the pits officially opened without any trouble at all (if this should not have happened, we will not do that in the future). The only condition was that once you're in, you don't come back out for more. It saves the teams the hassle of trying to get the tools and parts into the pit while everyone else is trying to get in as well. This also reduces safety risks as no one is carrying large and heavy boxes in the middle of a rather dense crowd.

I am not the official word, however, so hopefully we can get an actual answer (I didn't come across a clear cut answer to this question in the other threads - but I am extremely tired these days and may have missed it)!

I also have a followup - what is the reason for not allowing pit setup (i.e. the storage of tools, hanging of banners, erection of displays, or other NON-ROBOT activities, etc.)? I'm not trying to get around the rule or anything like that - just curious about it. Some teams don't have much to setup and therefore can start working as soon as the pits open - should teams that do have an elaborate pit really be "penalized" by having to take time from working on the bot to setup?

There's probably an obvious answer somewhere in there that I'm completely overlooking.

Kev

[Babyhueyhnx]

This year we thought ahead. we packed everything that would possibly fit into our crate we could think of that we needed. all tools, batteries, banners, buttons, band aids......etc. The only down side to this is that our crate weighed 902 Lbs when we shipped it from NJ. So luckily we will only have to bring a screw gun and a credit card with a very large credit limit..

[Nate Edwards]

There has to be. The announcement was made too late in the season for some teams to change their travel arrangements to get there early Thursday night.

This will probaly be correct, however, the uncrating wednesday night was there I think almost the entire build season as I saw it early on and kinda half ignored it until I opened up the WATSON Challenge Thread and remembered seeing something about it, turns out no one else did and I had to make a new thread refering to the site info that was up on the FIRST site. I think there will have limited Thursday uncrating but they want to, if possible, to have as many teams that are in Atlanta on Wednesday to uncrate in the timeframe 6-9 after playing in the Football game of course.

Nate

[Chris Fultz]

ID: 1837 Section: 7.1 Status: Answered Date Answered: 3/29/2005
Q: Are additional details available for the Wednesday 3/20 robot uncrating at the National Compitition; such as, which building (A, B, or C); which entrance, what tool may be carried in: can the teams completely unpack all their stuff

A: Wednesday, 4/20, from 6 pm - 9 pm, 3 team reps will be allowed to enter - Building C, halls 1 and 2. This time may only be used for the purposes of uncrating your robot. The only tools brought in during this time should be those needed for uncrating. Aisles must remain clear so that crates can easily be removed from the pit stations. Teams can unpack once the crates are removed from the pit area.


ID: 1838 Section: 7.1 Status: Answered Date Answered: 3/31/2005
Q: Will there be an early entry for 3 team members on Thursday in Atlanta, or is this early entry replaced by the Wednesday night uncrating?

A: Wednesday replaces the Thursday early entry. The pits in Atlanta open for everyone at 8am.

ID: 1839 Section: 7.1 Status: Answered Date Answered: 3/31/2005
Q: Will we be allow to bring in and set up the pit area in atlanta on Wednesday evening or just uncrate the robot.

A: Just uncrate your robot.

ID: 1804 Section: 7.5 Status: Answered Date Answered: 3/17/2005
Q: During early entry for an event, three members can uncrate the robot but not work on it. Are we permitted to begin charging our batteries prior to the arrival of the rest of the team? Thank you.

A: Yes.


ID: 1830 Section: 7.5.2 Status: Answered Date Answered: 3/31/2005
Q: Nationals uncrating will be in the evening. Can we take our display, tools, and materials in at this time and may we set up our display if no work is done to the robot?

A: Uncrating and dropping off only. No setup.

ID: 1847 Section: 7.5.2 Status: Answered Date Answered: 4/6/2005
Q: For the Championships uncrating, to minimize congestion at the elevators on Thursday morning, will we be allowed to bring in our rolling toolboxes during the Wednesday evening crate opening period?

A: The pits are in a new building (at ground level) so no elevators are involved this year. You may bring in your tool boxes Wednesday night or Thursday morning.


My only question to these answers is relative to bringing in tool boxes.
ID 1837 says only tools needed for uncrating the robot may be brought in.
ID 1847 says you may bring in tool boxes Wednesday night or Thursday.

I will ask for a clarification.

Other than that, it is very clear that you are only to uncrate your robot, charge batteries, and then move on.

[Steve W]

ID: 1837 Section: 7.1 Status: Answered Date Answered: 3/29/2005
Q: Are additional details available for the Wednesday 3/20 robot uncrating at the National Compitition; such as, which building (A, B, or C); which entrance, what tool may be carried in: can the teams completely unpack all their stuff

A: Wednesday, 4/20, from 6 pm - 9 pm, 3 team reps will be allowed to enter - Building C, halls 1 and 2. This time may only be used for the purposes of uncrating your robot. The only tools brought in during this time should be those needed for uncrating. Aisles must remain clear so that crates can easily be removed from the pit stations. Teams can unpack once the crates are removed from the pit area.


Chris, I believe that the last answer has precedence. Could you explain the highlighted area for me?

[Chris Fultz]

The highlighted areas were just to emphasize / answer the questions raised throughout the thread based on the FIRST Q & A responses.

Edit, i understand your question now ---

"Teams can unpack once the crates are removed from the pit area."

I assume this means to focus on getting stuff out of the crate and into the pit area quickly so that crates can be moved.

I don't understand the "unpack" part, that seems to contradict all of the other statements.

[RoboMom]

I am beginning to regret that I am working pit admin on Wed. 5:30-9 so everyone can go to the volunteer dinner and orientation. I really don't want to be placed in the role of pit police... :(

[Wetzel]

I am beginning to regret that I am working pit admin on Wed. 5:30-9 so everyone can go to the volunteer dinner and orientation. I really don't want to be placed in the role of pit police... :(

I'll come help. Who needs food? :rolleyes:

At any rate, it seems that they want the crates out as fast as possible. The guys moving them will probally only be there for x time and that time is short for what is needed.

Wetzel

[Chris Fultz]

1856 Section: 7.1 Status: Answered Date Answered: 4/11/2005
Q: ID 1837 says only tools needed for uncrating the robot may be brought in, .ID 1847 says you may bring in tool boxes Wednesday night or Thursday. Can you clarify?

A: #1847 is correct, BUT no robot work may be done. #1837 should have said the only tools that can be used are for uncrating of the robot.

Final Answer - you can bring in tools, but only use the ones needed to uncrate the robot.

[Scott Chambliss]

Scott : What the team did is technically illegal and they should be made to uncrate Thursday instead.

The Devil's Advocate : There are many robots that arrived fully assembled and must simply be rolled out of their crates. However, some (like Redabot) require a lengthy assembly, which gives them less time to work on other projects and repairs (like that bent axle of theirs) and puts them at a disadvantage, which is not their fault. It is FIRST's intention to speed up the uncrating process, not limit team's time in the pits. It this fair to teams that require assembly? I think not.