Should Sponsors ask to be recognized?

[Collmandoman]

Sponsors can't be recognized if you don't know who they are. It is also the right of someone giving you money to ask to be noticed. It is good for their business. What is good for them helps bring in more money which is good for you as you will continue to get the same or more donations. Like it or not, that's the way it is. Not all sponsors want to be noticed and that is OK too.

" You can say.. "well this is just how the world works".. but I disagree.. this is what we've come to expect - We've come to notice a world that is Non-Gp.. and this is Deam Kamens dream to fix it. I think he would very much like for us not to parade around the sponsors names... but rather just thank them.. because we will as a community understand that their monetary sacrifices furthered FIRSTs' ideas. SO instead of having to display their names everywhere.. we thank them when we notice the appropriate times because we are actually gracious."


I do agree with the first part.. because how can you know somebody's name if you've never met them.
Like it or not, that's the way it is."

People seem to not only accept what you've said.. but like it. And that nearly makes my head explode.
This is one way you can look at it.. what if there is a sponsor that cares nothing about FIRST.. but sees.. well I can donate 5k a year and get my name on a wall.. which improve my revenues by about 12k yearly. Is this ok? Personally I feel it isn't, because they aren't doing it for the reason we are applauding them. Which I think you would all agree with me is non-GP.

Another way, what if it is mixed. (Meaning they like the ideas of FIRST and like making money) This is not a win-win situation in my mind, because they are profitting off their own involvement in a organization aimed at in some way making the world better and they would likely not be involved if they were not gaining profit in some way. I don't know how else to say this... but in every way it seems wrong. The money is great, and helps FIRST stay alive.. but I personally would not accept it if I were told.. you only get the money if you display our names this many times or do this other thing so many times. It should then become a matter of choice.. and with us all being gracious professionals I think we'd thank them out of our own intrests instead of basically having to.
Don't tak the things I've said in here too far.. it's all meant in a very nice way. =)

[Marc P.]

All I'm basically saying is .. it is not professional to ask for something in return for doing a good deed. Personal satisfaction should be enough.. and if it is a truly good thing you are doing.. people will note that and thank you.

I think you are missing the intention of this thread. What Steve is asking is if people would be willing to volunteer some extra cash to help ChiefDelphi.com continue/improve the outstanding service it's providing to the FIRST community. It's not a question of asking for something in return- it would be asking for contributions to offset the real-world cost involved of hosting such a valuable site. As the site increases in popularity and use, it will require more computing resources to handle to load, and so more funding. Would I donate to the cause? Absolutely. Would I need anything in return? No, but it never hurts to say thank you in some way.

If your comments were related to donations in general, I do have to disagree. My team is funded entirely by donations from local companies. It's great when people just handed us the cash with a big smile, but I do feel obligated to provide something in return as a token of good will, or simply as a thank you. That's why we offer space on the back of our team t-shirts for recognition of sponsors. It's not a question of professionalism, it's incentive. Some companies have no problem writing a check to support the future of science and engineering. Other companies need something to show for it, and that is not necessarily a bad thing.

Think of it this way- We, like many teams, hold pancake breakfasts as fundraisers. People pay (donate) money to the team, and get pancakes in return. Is it not professional for people to show up to a fundraiser like this and expect to eat pancakes in return for a donation? Some people come because they support our team, while others come because they want a quality Sunday breakfast out of the house. For the latter, does it matter they gave us money with the expectation of getting food? The team still gets the donation, the customer gets a quality breakfast. Isn't it the same for companies giving money with the expectation of some sort of advertising? The team gets the donation, while the company gets the recognition necessary to continue providing funding. I see nothing wrong with that.

[Collmandoman]

I was side tracked by Joe Johnsons comments on being rewarded for donating. It made me think...

If your comments were related to donations in general, I do have to disagree. My team is funded entirely by donations from local companies. It's great when people just handed us the cash with a big smile, but I do feel obligated to provide something in return as a token of good will, or simply as a thank you.


Please READ what I wrote.. and you will notice that I agree with you entirely... not disagree --


Think of it this way- We, like many teams, hold pancake breakfasts as fundraisers. People pay (donate) money to the team, and get pancakes in return. Is it not professional for people to show up to a fundraiser like this and expect to eat pancakes in return for a donation? Some people come because they support our team, while others come because they want a quality Sunday breakfast out of the house. For the latter, does it matter they gave us money with the expectation of getting food? The team still gets the donation, the customer gets a quality breakfast. Isn't it the same for companies giving money with the expectation of some sort of advertising? The team gets the donation, while the company gets the recognition necessary to continue providing funding. I see nothing wrong with that.

This isn't anything like I just mentioned.. These people aren't asking to be reimbursed at the contest.. you are doing service to them.. they should pay you.. or you can take them to jail. The 2 situations aren't anything alike

[Joe Johnson]

I was side tracked by Joe Johnsons comments on being rewarded for donating. It made me think...


I agree and I apologize for an accidental hijacking. I did not mean to, but my free association has taken this thread in places I am sure that it was not intended.

The take away message for me is that it is nice to know that a lot of folks are willing to kick in if the Team Chief Delphi ever passes the hat to help defray the costs associated with the ChiefDelphi.com website.

Joe J.

[Collmandoman]

no it's a good thing I think atleast-- better than hearing 100 ppl just say "yeah I'm down" ~ It seems to be an issue ppl are split on.. and there are good points being made. You accidently made it more interesting =)

[Steve W]

I have started this thread in response to the following post from another thread.

I do agree with the first part.. because how can you know somebody's name if you've never met them.


People seem to not only accept what you've said.. but like it. And that nearly makes my head explode.
This is one way you can look at it.. what if there is a sponsor that cares nothing about FIRST.. but sees.. well I can donate 5k a year and get my name on a wall.. which improve my revenues by about 12k yearly. Is this ok? Personally I feel it isn't, because they aren't doing it for the reason we are applauding them. Which I think you would all agree with me is non-GP.

Another way, what if it is mixed. (Meaning they like the ideas of FIRST and like making money) This is not a win-win situation in my mind, because they are profitting off their own involvement in a organization aimed at in some way making the world better and they would likely not be involved if they were not gaining profit in some way. I don't know how else to say this... but in every way it seems wrong. The money is great, and helps FIRST stay alive.. but I personally would not accept it if I were told.. you only get the money if you display our names this many times or do this other thing so many times. It should then become a matter of choice.. and with us all being gracious professionals I think we'd thank them out of our own intrests instead of basically having to.
Don't tak the things I've said in here too far.. it's all meant in a very nice way. =)

I may be wrong here but I really don't care why businesses give. The final result is that there are students being inspired. Anyone who is willing to give me legal money to support our team is welcome as long as what the business stands for is not in conflict with FIRST and it's principles. There are many reasons for giving. If someone is able to make money from a sponsorship that is OK with me. If they are able to recruit employees from FIRST teams that's great too. As I see it if the team benefits and the sponsor benefits it is a WIN/WIN situation.

[Allison K]

If there are benefits to both sides of course it's a win-win situation. Also, I'm not absolutely positive, but I don't think most sponsors require teams to post their names and logos on the robot, banners, shirts, etc. I think it's usually something that the team offers as a thank you to companies who donate. Right?

Even if public recognition is required by the sponsors, I still don't see the problem. The benefits that come from donations are enormous, and if the companies from benefit from sponsoring us as well why is that a bad thing? I would almost hope that the companies could get something in return, other than a little logo on a shirt, which seems somewhat insignificant when compared with what the team gets from the sponsor.

~Allison

[Katie Reynolds]

Just FYI ...

The last 7 or so (relevant) posts from the "Help Upgrade CD thread" have been moved to here.

Discuss away.

[Marc P.]

Great spin-off thread Steve! I guess the real question here is within the bounds of Gracious Professionalism, what are teams willing to do for a donation or funding, and if I understand Collmandoman's posts, whether it's right for a business to ask for something in return for a donation.

It's a widely known and accepted fact that money is a requirement to operate a FIRST team. There's the $6,000 registration fee, $4,000 for additional regionals, and $5,000 for registration in Atlanta. Add in the cost of materials for the robot, any costs for facilities, and any money spent on team travel, and we're talking about a rather substantial amount of money to be raised. FIRST is an incredible program. I don't think I'm to far out on a limb when I say I'd be willing to do virtually anything to see this program continue inspiring people about the wonders and potentials of science and technology. Since money is the main ingredient to getting a team registered, I'd say within the bounds of law, any method of obtaining money is worthwhile to help FIRST continue to grow. If that means printing out a company logo to stick on a robot, or adding the name to a team's banner to be hung up at regionals, does it really make a difference with regard to how much the team members learn and grow? If the company nets an extra $12k a year because of all the exposure at regionals, it would only make good business sense to continue donating money to the team, because they make a return on investment. The company benefits, therefore increasing the chances of continued or expanded funding. The team benefits, because without money they wouldn't exist. The students and mentors benefit, because they can work on building relationships and robots while become inspired by attending competitions. Ultimately, everyone wins, so I really don't see how it's unprofessional to ask for something reasonable in return when making a donation.

[MikeDubreuil]

I agree that it would be unprofessional to ask for recognition if you donated money. However, it creates an even weirder situation if the sponsor is not recognized because there is an assumption that some advertisement will come from the donation.

When I was younger I played town league hockey. My team was called Pumpernickel Pub. A local bar sponsored us. Their sponsorship bought us ice time, some equipment and team jerseys. The team jerseys were green and did say Pumpernickel Pub on them. We were known as “Pumpernickel Pub” and we would have thought it absurd to not have it any other way.

From as long as I can remember if I was involved in a group or club that was not for profit we would acknowledge those who donated generously. FIRST is no different.

The FIRST robotics competition has sponsors too. In fact we see their advertisement every time we go to a competition on the black wall next to the video screen. Why doesn’t Woodie Flowers the man who pioneered gracious professionalism, not allow sponsor banners? It’s simple, he knows those sponsors expect some form of advertisement or come next year their pockets could become shallower.

The donations Chief Delphi could receive will significantly reduce the cost to the team. This is important because CD.com has become a tool to every FIRST team, not just a Chief Delphi forum. In acknowledging it’s sponsors, ChiefDelphi.com can very easily recognize their donators with a special button or donations points with virtually zero cost.

The question boils down to, should CD.com recognize donators. Woodie has shown us that it is not ungracious to recognize sponsors. I say, if it doesn’t cost much and is fairly simple to implement, why not?

[Collmandoman]

I think as professionals ,sponsors should not ask to be recognized, and as we are professionals we will recognize them because we feel it's right, having never been asked to. I think that's the best way for it to happen


If the company nets an extra $12k a year because of all the exposure at regionals, it would only make good business sense to continue donating money to the team, because they make a return on investment. The company benefits, therefore increasing the chances of continued or expanded funding. The team benefits, because without money they wouldn't exist. The students and mentors benefit, because they can work on building relationships and robots while become inspired by attending competitions. Ultimately, everyone wins, so I really don't see how it's unprofessional to ask for something reasonable in return when making a donation.

I'm talking about the situations.. where they don't care about the team.. but only personal profit. Is that right? Any sponsor like this.. is also one that will only sponsor if you if you give them recognition. So.. I guess another question is emerging.. Do you want a sponsor that cares about the team.. or themselves? Should sponsors only get involved if they undersrand what FIRST is about?

[Joe Johnson]

they would likely not be involved if they were not gaining profit in some way. I don't know how else to say this... but in every way it seems wrong.


Example #1:
I am sure that Radio Shack is of 2 minds. I think that they probably support the general idea of folks in their main market getting inspired to go into science and technology careers. BUT... ... I am also confident that they think that selling VEX stuff is likely to make them more money in the long run.

Example #2:
Bob and Tony from IFI are great guys. They put in tons of work for Team 148 before deciding to try to make the Victor 883. Making the Victor 883 was good for FIRST, but the profits they made from FIRST teams essentially jump started their company. A company that I suppose has well over 10 million dollars (US) in annual sales (much of it outside of FIRST to be sure).

Example #3:
Andy Baker and Mark Coors are awesome individuals. AndyMark provides great stuff to FIRST teams as a supplier to the kit and as a maker of COTS parts for FIRST robots. Here is a secret. AndyMark is not a charitable institution. They make money from FIRST teams (Zounds!)

Future Example #(N+1):
Robotic Amusements, Inc. will make products that (I hope) FIRST participants will love to use. While they are not target customers, the demographics of FIRST participants is almost a perfect image of our target end users. If we are successful, sponsoring FIRST teams, regionals, and championships Robotic Amusements, Inc. will not be charity but just plain good marketing.

they would likely not be involved if they were not gaining profit in some way. I don't know how else to say this... but in every way it seems wrong.


Is it your position that FIRST should turn away support from these folks because the money is somehow tainted?

From my point of view, these examples are examples to try to duplicate not denegrate.

Think about it, I have never heard a single NCAA basketball team complain that they qualified for the NCAA tourney but could not go because hotels, travel, etc. were going to cost too much. Know why? Because Corp. America has found it in their interest to pay the travel bills for the teams (and then some).

they would likely not be involved if they were not gaining profit in some way. I don't know how else to say this... but in every way it seems wrong.

I look forward to the day when Nike, McDonalds and Coke are paying big bucks to have their logo on every T-shirt at the Championships because it probably means that they are paying the bills for us to inspire kids.

Joe J.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Putting logos on robots just makes good sense. To be frank, anyone donating to or sponsoring a team is expecting something. At the very least, they're expecting you to use the money for its stated purpose. Quite probably they're expecting their logo or name to show up somewhere and will make this fact known in some fashion.

If you take their money and don't use it for what you said you would, and they find out, you won't be getting any money from them or their friends anymore. If they're expecting you to put a logo on the robot and you don't, they're quite likely to find out and will approach you about it. Quite probably they won't sponsor you if you refuse to recognize them in some fashion. Yes, it's quite cynical, but this is how things work. As stated above, if the outcome is another FIRST team and more inspired kids, then as long as the money comes from legal means it's okay by me if they want me to do some small things to recognize them. If they want you to totally reorganize and rename your team, etc, then you need to weigh the costs and benefits. Yes, for those philosophy students out there (I know there's a few) this is a classical Utilitarian approach to the problem.

[Collmandoman]

I dunno.. gah I guess I'm just frustrated at macroeconomics...

Example #3:
Andy Baker and Mark Coors are awesome individuals. AndyMark provides great stuff to FIRST teams as a supplier to the kit and as a maker of COTS parts for FIRST robots. Here is a secret. AndyMark is not a charitable institution. They make money from FIRST teams (Zounds!)

I don't mean this rude... If I were in a large company and I saw FIRST.. I would give everything free.. or if I was in a small one-- everything would be at cost . If everyone did this.. the kit would be less.. and thus every year you wouldn't pay 6k.. which would enable more students to be inspired(because more team would be able to go). I know this is hard for small companies, and I understand why they have to do this. I think FIRST should target only the very large companies that understand the ideas of FIRST and give everything at cost, or donate(I know several already do). A free kit would be nice.. and maybe it's on the FIRST horizon. Or maybe I'm a fool

[dlavery]

I think as professionals ,sponsors should not ask to be recognized, and as we are professionals we will recognize them because we feel it's right, having never been asked to. I think that's the best way for it to happen.
...
Do you want a sponsor that cares about the team.. or themselves? Should sponsors only get involved if they undersrand what FIRST is about?

And I would have to respond that, as the largest sponsor of FIRST teams in the entire program, NASA massively disagrees with you. I reject the notion that asking for a team to acknowledge the sponsorship of an organization is equivalent to not understanding what FIRST is all about. When NASA sponsors a team, part of the deal is that NASA is recognized by the team as a sponsor, "NASA" is included somewhere in the team name, and the NASA logo appears somewhere on the robot. This is done for a number of reasons, including:

- it is appropriate and professional to recognize the contributions of all members of the team; when an organization sponsors the team, they tacitly become part of the team, they and the team are then associated with each other, and they should be recognized as such

- recognition of NASA sponsorship of the team acknowledges that NASA has used their resources to "support the cause" and further both the goals of FIRST and the agency. They can then show their sponsors (the U.S. Congress and the public) that they are properly utilizing the resources that they have been given. When they do so, then they are given additional resources in future years to continue the effort. If they don't, then about 200 teams will be without sponsorship next year.

- Oh yeah, and FIRST requires it.

So the bottom line is that NASA does, and will continue to, ask to be recognized as a sponsor when the agency supports a team. Because NASA is smart enough to understand that without the recognition of the sponsorship, the ability of the agency to continue to support the program will be questionable and the long term effects are much, much worse than any minor discomfort someone might feel about asking for a logo to be placed on a robot.

Does this mean that NASA is a bad sponsor, or the agency is involved for all the wrong reasons, or the agency doesn't understand what FIRST is all about. Well, NASA has been involved with FIRST for the past ten years. You have all had ample opportunity to observe the actions and behaviors of the agency and it's engineers, and judge if NASA is an appropriate sponsor or not. What do you think?

-dave

[Bill Moore]

These posts describe sponsors as some entity separate from the team, but I don't think that is appropriate in many cases. When you have a major donor, that corporation becomes more of a "silent partner" than a detached sponsor. Donors not only provide some funding for teams, but also space for building the robot, machine shops to fabricate parts, and networks of engineers and mentors to train and guide the students. They are not detached in any sense of the term.

We would be insulting a partner who contributed so much to the success of the program (regardless of the robot's record), if we failed to make note of their contribution by recognizing them in some manner. Our FIRST program is only 6 years old, but our engineering program for high school students is over 30 years old. The first 24+ years the company didn't have a robot to put its' name on, but the company still supported the ideals that FIRST is trying to bring into the culture.

[Collmandoman]

And I would have to respond that, as the largest sponsor of FIRST teams in the entire program, NASA massively disagrees with you. I reject the notion that asking for a team to acknowledge the sponsorship of an organization is equivalent to not understanding what FIRST is all about.
I think this is part of what FIRST is about
It's strange you used all... I don't' think I mentioned that.. but I do feel that ASKING for recognition does one of two things..
It either implies that the recipients of the contribution are ungrateful and need to be reminded to reimburse the sponsor by recognition. Which shows a lack of credit and trust to the team.
OR it is a "hey we did something for you, here is our demand so you can thank us and pay us back in the way we see appropriate"
I'm having a hard time seeing it another way..
I feel FIRST recognizes NASA's generous spirit and thanks them - I hope NASA doesn't say - We'll sponsor you if you get our name out there more -- This should just happen because the community acknowledges your sacrifices -- It has the EXACT same ends.. but the means seem so much more moral to me -- In this case pragmatism = no! (well to me)


When NASA sponsors a team, part of the deal is that NASA is recognized by the team as a sponsor, "NASA" is included somewhere in the team name, and the NASA logo appears somewhere on the robot. This is done for a number of reasons, including:

I mean..errr... this bothers me.. but it doesn't -- I don't know..yes it does
I would just hope that teams would have the common sense to recognize their sponsors.. because their team couldn't't exist without them -- None of our sponsors this year said anything about us displaying their name.. we just do because we feel they are what made it possible this year-- without them this would not be possible AT ALL..
they don't remind us of that by telling us to show them off
we show them off because we are grateful


- it is appropriate and professional to recognize the contributions of all members of the team; when an organization sponsors the team, they tacitly become part of the team, they and the team are then associated with each other, and they should be recognized as such
TOTALLY AGREED =)


- recognition of NASA sponsorship of the team acknowledges that NASA has used their resources to "support the cause" and further both the goals of FIRST and the agency. They can then show their sponsors (the U.S. Congress and the public) that they are properly utilizing the resources that they have been given. When they do so, then they are given additional resources in future years to continue the effort. If they don't, then about 200 teams will be without sponsorship next year.

I just would kinda hope in humanity.. that if teams weren't asked to recognize NASA.. it would still do so..




So the bottom line is that NASA does, and will continue to, ask to be recognized as a sponsor when the agency supports a team. Because NASA is smart enough to understand that without the recognition of the sponsorship, the ability of the agency to continue to support the program will be questionable and the long term effects are much, much worse than any minor discomfort someone might feel about asking for a logo to be placed on a robot.

The way you juxtapose the two makes it seem like my view is pointless(and adding the word smart- has the same effect). This is about principle.. and I bet if not asking for recognition would not cost FIRST or NASA to begin to fall into oblivion. I ACTUALLY think people would be surprised that the same recognition is given.


Does this mean that NASA is a bad sponsor, or the agency is involved for all the wrong reasons, or the agency doesn't understand what FIRST is all about. Well, NASA has been involved with FIRST for the past ten years. You have all had ample opportunity to observe the actions and behaviors of the agency and it's engineers, and judge if NASA is an appropriate sponsor or not. What do you think?

again.. some farfetched comments
I think they've done great! =) and you!

[Daniel Brim]

Well, first of all, I think sponsors should be recognized. Here's why.

Sponsors are responsible for your FIRST experience. Without them there would be no robot. You would not be in this wonderful program (I think we can all agree with that). Without being in this program, you wouldn't have a chance to be inspired daily by the likes of Dean Kamen, Woodie Flowers, Dave Lavery, JVN, Karthik Kanagasabapathy, Andy Baker, and all people like that. Without FIRST, you probably wouldn't know who these people are. Without FIRST, your life might not change the way it is now.

Following that chain (which I hope is logical), sponsors lead to life-changing. So, you owe them. You wouldn't know about FIRST, so what's a little sticker on the robot going to do?

[Collmandoman]

the name of this thread shoudl be changed-- whoever created it~ to something like "Should Sponsors ask to be recognized" ~ the current topic.. is slightly...well.. awfully misleading and doesn't cover what is being discussed

[dhitchco]

Not all sponsors/donors will blatently ASK YOU to be recognized in some form. But they will WANT to be recognized. Recognizing donations and sponsorships is a LONG-TERM exercise in relationship-building.

Just think about how valuable it can be to your team to have a sponsor chatting about the fact that "my company is a sponsor of a robot competition at XYZ high school" to his/her friends or co-workers.

That word-of-mouth advertising for your robotics program is IMPOSSIBLE to buy. The advertising companies on Madison Ave in New York would KILL for that kind of "buzz" and excitement.

The sponsorship begins when you meet the sponsor and collect his/her money to fund your efforts. But that only where it begins:
1) Immediately write to the sponsor saying "thanks"
2) Keep them informed of your successes and shortfalls (maybe they'll pitch in even more!)
3) Even after regionals and nationals, keep your sponsors in the loop via e-mail, your web site, etc. This is a long-term annual process that you'll want to nurse each year.
4) Some sponsors will want a "splash" via name on robot, t-shirts, etc. Others will want a smaller presence. But they ALL want to be recognized and thanked. They are an INTEGRAL part of your team.

[Billfred]

Honestly, I don't see it as a problem.

When you get (celebration of choice--birthday, Christmas, whatever) presents, what do you do? You write a thank-you card, showing appreciation for your newly-obtained (object of choice--cash, underwear, whatever).

Now, when you get $?,000 sponsorships, what do you do?

Sure, you can always argue that gifts should be stringless and such--however, let's imagine Billfred Industries sponsored Redateam, who made no mention of sponsors anywhere (shirts, robot, pit), and Bluateam, who placed their sponsors on their T-shirts, as well as the higher donors on the robot itself. Maybe they even gave a team shirt to the top guy when he came to the regional (approximate cost: $10), or a button (approximate cost: under $1). When Billfred Industries gets reminded of FIRST again in the fall, who will the company probably remember more?

[Ryan Dognaux]

the name of this thread shoudl be changed-- whoever created it~ to something like "Should Sponsors ask to be recognized" ~ the current topic.. is slightly...well.. awfully misleading and doesn't cover what is being discussed

Typically, thread names are not changed to fit the top they have shifted to discussing. If anything, another thread is created.

I think sponsers should be recognized, period. Do I think it should be required? Yes, because without sponsors, none of us would be here. Period. I don't think there's an underlying meaning in any of it - it's just the righteous, polite thing to do. If someone does something for you, you thank them. Thinking about hidden motives and underlying meaning in all of it is pointless. Sponsors help FIRST teams, and in turn, FIRST teams help out sponsors by getting the sponsor's name out, and in many team's cases, actually end up working for their major sponsor.

[Collmandoman]

Typically, thread names are not changed to fit the top they have shifted to discussing. If anything, another thread is created.

I think sponsers should be recognized, period. Do I think it should be required? Yes, because without sponsors, none of us would be here. Period. I don't think there's an underlying meaning in any of it - it's just the righteous, polite thing to do. If someone does something for you, you thank them. Thinking about hidden motives and underlying meaning in all of it is pointless. Sponsors help FIRST teams, and in turn, FIRST teams help out sponsors by getting the sponsor's name out, and in many team's cases, actually end up working for their major sponsor.

That's the whole thing... this post was moved.. and given an entirely incorrect name.. it seems only lavery has posted anything that hits the question~
Does it seem OK to you for sponsors to ask to be recognized? Why or why not~

[Greg McCoy]

Does it seem OK to you for sponsors to ask to be recognized? Why or why not~
Heck yes...corporate sponsors are giving away their resources which could be applied directly to their business. The least we can do is comply with a request to increase their visibility to the public.

[Chris Fultz]

OK, been thinking on this one for awhile, and I cannot hold back any more.

This may come as a news flash to many of you, but most businesses in the US, and the world, are in business to make money. That is not a bad thing, in fact, it is a very good thing. And, as a business, they are responsible to their owners (shareholders) to spend their money wisely and earn a decent return on it.

Most businesses also have requests from many, many organizations that could use their money to do good things. United Way, Boy Scouts, Shelters, and on and on. So how do they choose where to put their money? Some of it is given purely as a charitable contribution. No strings attached. No recognition expected. A certain portion of annual budgets are set aside for such purposes and are part of being a good community member.

But FIRST is different. FIRST is not a charity. FIRST, for many companies, is an investment in the future. It is a source of engineers and techncians. It is a place to make your company known to some of the brightest stars so that they will want to come and work for you when they get out of school. It is a way for companies to secure their future when the engineering work force continues to shrink. And, if companies do not feel they are getting any value out of their sponsorship (and value can be defined in many ways), then they will find somewhere else to spend their money.

Rolls-Royce is very proud of the teams it sponsors (7), and hopes that the teams are also proud to be a part of the Rolls-Royce family. One way that a team can show that is to advertise our name and have Rolls-Royce announced as a sponsor at the competitions. We greatly appreciate it when they do.


* note: I work for Rolls-Royce, and am part of the committee that determines our support for FIRST teams each year.

[Steve W]

I changed the name of the thread so that some would be happy. Hope that I don't cause any problems with it.

Yeah Sponsors.

[Beth Sweet]

Alright, time for my two cents.

There is a difference between Gracious Professionalism and not thinking. Sponsors are businesses. The point of being in business is to make money. If a sponsor doesn't use intelligent marketing techniques, they will make no money and turn into a 1 year sponsor. Now there is a dilemma.

Obviously businesses need to make money. FIRST provides a fantastic outlet for businesses to do two things: advertise and help out some kids working to make something better out of our future. The sensible thing to do is ask for some sort of advertising for the money they are contributing. Spent elsewhere, that money could buy them anything from a billboard to a commercial on NBC (and yes these numbers are realistic, I was in Advertising 205 last semester so I know pricing for those mediums).

Bottom Line: I believe in science they consider this a mutually beneficial relationship. Why would you expect to get something out of them without providing them with something in return? That seems a bit selfish to me...

[Stephen Kowski]

Should sponsors ask to be recognized? No. They shouldn't have too....do it out of respect.
Should waiters asked to be tipped? No. It is common courtesy.

I hope people don't lose sight that FIRST is a privilege to participate in and not a right.

Do volunteers at the events ask for recognition? Not really, but still it seems people go out of their way to thank them despite it taking an extra effort on their part.

Someone does something nice for me in whatever aspect I am dealing with in my life I am obligated to thank them? No. It is the courteous/right thing to do.

I don't know if I could put this answer in simpler terms. Maybe if I just walk around the championship hitting people with a frying pan would make it clearer, but I am just astounded by this question.

Bottomline: If your sponsor has to ask to be recognized you have already made a huge mistake.

[Daniel Brim]

Another point... we are on Chief Delphi right now (duh). Just look at the name. Chief Delphi is a recognition to the entity that ultimately keeps these forums running. Without their main sponsors, Chief Delphi would not exist. Since Chief Delphi is probably the biggest FIRST resourse there is, we recognize the company that keeps Chief Delphi alive. Without Chief Delphi, we wouldn't have many things... a line to talk with famous FIRSTers, a place to collaborate with thousands of other robotics students, etc. Chief Delphi is one of the reasons that FIRST is so great, and I'm all for recognizing Chief Delphi's sponsors in my everyday speech.

Chief Delphi is great!

-Daniel

[Andy Baker]

14 years ago, Dean Kamen approached many COMPANIES and invited them to get involved with this new thing called U.S.FIRST. He approached, GM, Motorola, Johnson & Johnson, Baxter Healthcare, Boston Scientific, Xerox and many others. He asked them to offer up their best design engineers and enter a contest, partnering them with high school students.

I dunno.. gah I guess I'm just frustrated at macroeconomics...

I don't mean this rude... If I were in a large company and I saw FIRST.. I would give everything free.. or if I was in a small one-- everything would be at cost . If everyone did this.. the kit would be less.. and thus every year you wouldn't pay 6k.. which would enable more students to be inspired(because more team would be able to go). I know this is hard for small companies, and I understand why they have to do this. I think FIRST should target only the very large companies that understand the ideas of FIRST and give everything at cost, or donate(I know several already do). A free kit would be nice.. and maybe it's on the FIRST horizon. Or maybe I'm a fool

The next time you are at a competition, look up at the vertical blue banner and see who the "Founding Sponsors" are. They are listed there for a reason. These companies DID give much for free, for many years. Some of these companies have been supporting FIRST even though their stock price stinks and their share holders are frustrated.

In some fairytale world, I can see where companies care less about their bottom lines and give all of their profits to any charity who puts out their hand. But, companies have to make tough decisions in order to stay in business. Sometimes those decisions mean that they cut their sponsorship to a worthwhile organization, or they just try to charge enough to cover their costs. Other times, companies (like the one a friend and I started) are made to HELP FIRST teams while still being somewhat profitable for us.

"a free kit would be nice"... Yes, and I would like a free Porsche parked in my driveway. What makes students in FIRST entitled to handouts?

What I have seen in FIRST is a large group of young, energetic thinkers who actually believe that if they want something, they need to go out and earn it. FIRST is not about handouts. FIRST does not breed young people who think that they are entitled to freebies. At least I sure hope that it doesn't.

Does it seem OK to you for sponsors to ask to be recognized? Why or why not~

Yes, is it perfectly OK for a sponsor to ask to be recognized. With any business plan, deal, agreement, or partnership, some sort of "deal" needs to be struck to make the thing work. On the FIRST team I am on, the "deal" is that Delphi sponsors our team while our students and adults do much for the community. This makes Delphi look good. At events, we compete hard and try to do the best we can. This makes Delphi look like a positive sponsor of FIRST. In our pit, we proudly post a Delphi banner. The kids eagerly hang this up. Yep, Delphi corporate sent us this banner, and asked us to display it. It is part of the deal. Our team graciously and proudly agrees to this deal. Also... part of our deal is that our students need to pay (or fundraise) a portion of their costs for the year. This is our way of making the kids take ownership of their participation on the team. They are not getting a free handout. Some kids bust their behinds and work hard on our projects for the community. In the past, these kids have had less to pay to cover their fair share (this is all spelled out in our team handbook on the TechnoKats website (http://www.technokats.org)).

People who have issues and problems with a corporate presence in FIRST need to learn their history. FIRST would not be here without these supporting corporations, large and small.

(I know I am getting winded, but bear with me here)

I want to close with a little story. Gather around uncle Andy...

In 2000, we decided to host an off-season competition called "IRI". We started small, and had about 21 teams lined up to come. We had a great place and a good date. All things were going well. As we were dealing with the details of this, we realized that we needed to get a field controller package from Innovation First. As you might know, they were a very small company in 1999 and only began their work on field controllers in 2000.

So... I call down to Texas and talk to Tony at IFI. I asked if we could rent one of their field controllers. He said "yes" but did not have a set price for what it would cost for us to rent a complete system. My words to him were this:

"hey... you guys are doing great things. I want you to make some money and do more. How about $500 for the system, and if we break anything, we will cover all costs?"

Tony agreed to this and graciously supported us. He also wanted us to tell FIRST how they were supporting us. I saw no problem in that.

My point is that we loved what they were providing for us FIRST teams. We WANTED them to make money off of us. We WANTED them to succeed and prosper. We WANTED them to get recognition for this so we noted it in our event program. We loved this deal. They helped us succeed. They made money. This is what we call a "win-win".

End of story.

What gets my goat is that people come across and question corporate involvement in FIRST and scoff at the fact that these corporations ask to be recognized. How about a little faith in the current system? I am all for educating people, as long as they listen and show some appreciation for what is good.

ok... man... I feel like I am in Hyde Park, on a soapbox. whew.

Andy B.

[unapiedra]

I don't know what the problem is.

1) If you don't want to recognize sponsors, don't have sponsors. These sponsors give you something so they want something back. So if you are not fullfilling your side of the "unspoken contract" they won't fullfill theirs.

2) Money rules. You have the money - you decide. Sounds harsh, but that's how it is. You don't have to like it. But you have to live with it.


Just my two cents.

[petek]

My point is that we loved what they were providing for us FIRST teams. We WANTED them to make money off of us. We WANTED them to succeed and prosper. We WANTED them to get recognition for this so we noted it in our event program. We loved this deal. They helped us succeed. They made money. This is what we call a "win-win".


I couldn't agree more with Andy's (and Dave's) position on the issue of sponsor recognition. In fact, I view sponsorship as a type of commercial transaction. When we take money (or materials or mentors or whatever) from a company, we are selling them something. We are selling them an opportunity to be associated with something worthwhile and be publicly recognized for it.

As a team mentor I am always looking for new ways to help my team compete and for team members to grow. This includes marketing the team to potential sponsors, and you better believe that after I've spent a year or more landing a sponsor, I make sure that they receive recognition for their contributions. Anything less would be unprofessional of me.

[Jack Jones]

"Certainly, he can present a bill for such services. After all, we're not Communists. But he must let us draw the water from the well." - "The Godfather" - Barzini to the other Dons