View Full Version : Back to balls.
Eric Scheuing
19-09-2005, 18:39
I hope they revert.
Billfred
19-09-2005, 18:48
Well, FIRST does have a strange tendency to go back to balls after a year of something else, especially since 2002 (balls, bins, balls, tetras).
Much as some people (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/member.php?u=171) might joke of inflatable clowns, I'm predicting that there will be some sort of COTS gamepiece. Now, whether that is playground balls or footballs or soda bottles or shopping carts from the local Piggly Wiggly (http://www.thepig.net), we don't know.
(And to think, in four months we'll be swamped by whatever it is.)
I see it like this. What are the three symbols of FIRST? A square, a circle, and a triangle. In 2003 they used the bins (square), 2004 they used the balls (circle), 2005 they used tetras (triangle). I think they will go back to bins or something having to do with a square.
I see it like this. What are the three symbols of FIRST? A square, a circle, and a triangle. In 2003 they used the bins (square), 2004 they used the balls (circle), 2005 they used tetras (triangle). I think they will go back to bins or something having to do with a square.That theory is way too over used... I'd like to point out that almost anything that might be used in a game could be considered a circle, square, or triangle. Sorry. ;)
Jessica Boucher
19-09-2005, 19:29
One can contend the "symbol theory" for games within themselves, as well.
For instance, the 2000 Crew shirt consisted of a side view of the ball trough (a triangle), a circle (a yellow ball, that year also had black ones), and a square piece of diamond plate.
sciguy125
19-09-2005, 19:32
My theory is that they read these posts, then try to throw everybody a curve ball. Or throw a bunch of ideas in a box and let a monkey pick it. Or maybe a robot monkey...
Goober!!!
19-09-2005, 19:37
OR FIRST might invent a new kind of shape they might use like a terte-ball LOL!!! :D :D :D
My idea is that the game is designed and developed by July and is well under beta testing by now...
Corey Balint
19-09-2005, 19:40
^seconded.
but yeah, i do hope they do something simple this year. tetras seemed a bit too much. i also hope they vary some sizes(2004) and just make the game multi dimensional.
Adam Richards
19-09-2005, 19:41
My idea is that the game is designed and developed by July and is well under beta testing by now...
Well, the game couldn't have been completely designed by July, though probably they had about 90% of the major details worked out, and are just fine tuning it (Beta Testing =/= Fine Tuning).
Wayne C.
19-09-2005, 20:11
clowns-
blow up plastic punching clowns.....
and a volkswagen beetle
WC
(800th post)
Andrew Blair
19-09-2005, 20:50
I've heard something about using more than one shape, tetras, boxes, and balls. That'd be wild! For some reason my mind tells me that first would keep that for an anniversary or something.
[527]phil
19-09-2005, 22:11
Hmmm, I'm going to have to go with the blow up clowns. Personally I think FIRST goes with whatever shape they find most around the office. Who knows, maybe next year you'll have to use log shaped pieces like a giant game of robo-pickup sticks :D .
phil']Personally I think FIRST goes with whatever shape they find most around the office. Who knows, maybe next year you'll have to use log shaped pieces like a giant game of robo-pickup sticks :D .
Hmmm. Funny you should mention that. Somebody once told me that Tammy Trimble used to be a majorette... http://www.americanbaton.com/sb2.jpg
-dave
Squirrelrock
20-09-2005, 11:13
Hmmm. Funny you should mention that. Somebody once told me that Tammy Trimble used to be a majorette... http://www.americanbaton.com/sb2.jpg
-dave
Could you be any more vague than that, Dave?
<edit>
O God, I had to ask it. Now we'll never learn anything from him.
</edit>
Alan Anderson
20-09-2005, 11:40
Hmmm. Funny you should mention that. Somebody once told me that Tammy Trimble used to be a majorette... http://www.americanbaton.com/sb2.jpg
-dave
September 19, 2005: It's begun.
Hmm...I was wondering what FIRST was going to do with all that PVC pipe from this year's tetras.
Andy Baker
20-09-2005, 11:47
Hmmm. Funny you should mention that. Somebody once told me that Tammy Trimble used to be a majorette... http://www.americanbaton.com/sb2.jpg
-dave
Yes, but we all know that Tammy has traded in her 1st baton for 324 of them.
AB
Well, whatever object they choose, I do hope it goes back to a multi-tasking game. 2003 seemed very one-dimensional (at least it ended up that way), 2004 was awesome, 2005 was pretty 1-D again. I like seeing huge variety in robots, being able to see robots that really compliment your own. And have multi-D game really allows for that. I found 2004 to be extremely exciting to watch, and very diverse robots and strategies, compared to '03 and '05. And '03 was too easy to watch and figure out the score, while '05 was the opposite. I found '04 to be a great middle.
I have been watching video from '92 through '05, and they have used balls a LOT. Split opinion - depending on the game tasks, balls would be a great comeback, but it's very interesting to see new objects, and new robot designs that haven't been done before.
mechanicalbrain
20-09-2005, 19:19
I would like to either see a combination of shapes or possibly no shapes at all. Like maybe a obstacle coarse!
well i think we can all agree that is going to be some sort of simple shape (triangle, rectangle, circle, etc) because its not like they would have us do something crazy like dig tunnels in a sand pit! and it definitley wont be water...every year someone on delphi starts the thread about how they are going to involve water....i dont think that FIRST is that crazy.... water + robots + electricity = not for FIRST.
every year someone on delphi starts the thread about how they are going to involve water....i dont think that FIRST is that crazy.... water + robots + electricity = not for FIRST.
Well...what if there was no electricity?
Wetzel
Bcahn836
21-09-2005, 11:40
It is hard to tell what FIRST will come up with next. No one expected tetras for this year and i bet no one except dave and a few others will know what the game objects are until january, although it is fun trying to guess.
Well...what if there was no electricity?
Wetzel
SsssshhhhH!!!! Jeff, I told you that was a secret! You aren't supposed to let anyone know about that. If you are not careful, you will slip and tell them all about the "no fasteners allowed on the robot" rule!
-dave
Well...what if there was no electricity?
Wetzel
Gerbils! :rolleyes: Great renewable energy resource!
Squirrelrock
21-09-2005, 13:54
SsssshhhhH!!!! Jeff, I told you that was a secret! You aren't supposed to let anyone know about that. If you are not careful, you will slip and tell them all about the "no fasteners allowed on the robot" rule!
-dave
PLEASE TELL ME YOU'RE JOKING!
I don't care if you're lying, just say it!
John Gutmann
21-09-2005, 16:44
through all the years they have used balls it has been very interesting to watch and play because, if you drop a ball you have to chase it and everything is everywhere, which makes for better stratagies. Balls are easier to manuever and to design for.
in '05 if you dropped a tetra you could literally sit there in the same spot the whole match trying to pick it up, while with balls even if you mess up it is more interesting
in '03 with the bins they were much bigger and harder to maneuver around due to their size. I think '03 was more interesting then '05 in some aspects, but in '05 at the end of some matchs(like at FLR with the leaning tower of tetras) everybody is on their toes. Compared to '03 where youjust had to put bins around.
By far '04 was one of the best years I have ever seen matches from because there are so many elements, you have to push the balls to get the to your human player, and you have so many ways to score and get bonuses that alot of teams went so many different ways. Some teams could hang some could caps goals, but '04 was also very suspenseful at the end of a match when you had 4 frobots up on the bar and all 4 were straining to stay up.
If FIRST wants to make it exciting they need to add some vertical and horizonal elements to it. For example in '04 vertically you had throwing balls, capping and hanging, and horizantally you have moving balls, blocking balls entry points(to the human player), moviung goals, blocking from hanging, and the dreaded step up to the bar. it just had so many elements to desgin for.
At the reveal of the '05 game i was a little disappointed that it wasnt as good as '04 but hopefully they will do it this year
Adam Richards
21-09-2005, 17:11
SsssshhhhH!!!! Jeff, I told you that was a secret! You aren't supposed to let anyone know about that. If you are not careful, you will slip and tell them all about the "no fasteners allowed on the robot" rule!
-dave
Welding isn't a fastener though :D
Originally Posted by Wetzel
Well...what if there was no electricity?
interesting comment...i mean, its impossible...but i guess nobody really thinks of that. and i liked what sparksandtabs was saying about the comparison of the games. i really liked this years game though...but only when you had efficient robots out there...when u had 3 of the same design, and that design wasnt too great, it was sort of boring because they just tried to pick up a tetra the whole time or something...but like when 56 and my team and quite a number of other teams (sorry, im tired and i cant think of specific teams) were out there and were able to stack 9 tetras a match, it was soo fast paced and auxilarating......but besides that little flaw in the game, i thought it was good.
the comment about saying having balls in the game makes it more interesting is so true. with spheres in the game, anything could happen! they go everywhere! i remember going to RampRiot in the fall and because it was a little more lax than a regional competition, it was really a riot! it was just chaos sometimes on the field...but thats FIRST for ya!
interesting comment...i mean, its impossible...
Very few things are impossible. A great many things are impractical, but not impossible.
You can have the robots operate under fully mechanical power.
Wetzel
Very few things are impossible. A great many things are impractical, but not impossible.
True. In the workd of FIRST, nothing is impossible. I didn't really mean impossible, just impractical, like you said. But it would be really interesting to see a game without electricity....but I don't want to do it, just watch. lol
Very few things are impossible. A great many things are impractical, but not impossible.
Have you ever tried to strike a match on a marshmallow???
-dave
JamesBrown
22-09-2005, 11:12
Very few things are impossible. A great many things are impractical, but not impossible.
You can have the robots operate under fully mechanical power.
Wetzel
If any one reads wired magazine There was an artical about a year ago that was about Da Vinci Designing robots (pre electricity) I also remember reading about a competition based on this project (likely in either wired or POP SCI). So it is possible and im sure if any team could do it an be competitive then they would win at least a design award. Think a fully autonomous robot without any need for a programmer.
Alan Anderson
22-09-2005, 13:14
Expect the unexpected:
Have you ever tried to strike a match on a marshmallow???
Um...yes, I have.
A very, very old marshmallow. One with the approximate consistency of plaster-coated styrofoam. It and its fellow bag-mates had been forgotten in the corner of a cabinet in our trailer for slightly under two years.
I failed, but I think it was only because I was trying to use a safety match. Had it been a strike-anywhere kind, I believe it would have worked.
Very few things are impossible. A great many things are impractical, but not impossible.
Have you ever participated in a donut eating contest with Dave? :ahh: I watched one.. it wasn't pretty for the opponent.
Oh, right.... back to game objects..... Donuts were already used one year...plastic ones of course.
Have you ever tried to strike a match on a marshmallow???
-dave
Yes, and it works just fine after the marshmallow has been in the fire a bit.
(it was decided to be safer to light the fireworks with a match instead of a flaming mass of sugar)
Wetzel
George1902
23-09-2005, 15:01
This year, robots will have to navagate in four spatial dimensions. The objects to be manipulated will be hypercubes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercube).
JoeXIII'007
23-09-2005, 22:46
Triangle, circle, square. :rolleyes:
Why do I think of the 20-sided dice I have for MTG life counters??? Well, they're bit circular, a bit square, and have many Triangles. Why has FIRST not used these yet as game objects???
Have you ever tried to strike a match on a marshmallow???
-dave
My sister has either eaten or burnt too many of them in front of campfires for me to even try that, and by then, a fire has already started. Otherwise, something very very wierd would be going on. (For the record, I don't even eat marshmallows)
there is absolutely no way of guessing what first will throw at us next, in no way will it be similar to previouse games for many reason, one being that people will just make similar robots to suit similar games, another one being that they do look on this forum and they take all your guesses and go against it, First is never going to be predictable. though many of you have great ideas about what it might be you could be completely right or completely wrong they could mix all the shapes or use no shapes at all, the point is first has and always will surprise us in many ways.
there is absolutely no way of guessing what first will throw at us next, in no way will it be similar to previouse games for many reason, one being that people will just make similar robots to suit similar games, another one being that they do look on this forum and they take all your guesses and go against it, First is never going to be predictable. though many of you have great ideas about what it might be you could be completely right or completely wrong they could mix all the shapes or use no shapes at all, the point is first has and always will surprise us in many ways.
Why, exactly, does Dave continue to make a thread for us to give ideas for portions of the game in?
I don't think Dave et al are devious enough to ask for our ideas simply so they can go "Ok, here's what we CAN'T do, just so we can throw them off!"
While there will likely be at least one completely new aspect we've never seen before, the GDC has certainly incorporated bits and pieces of previous games before.
I do agree that guessing is entirely pointless though (although it does pass the time:))
I do agree that guessing is entirely pointless though (although it does pass the time:))
And a lot of fun. When you start guessing, people can come up with some crazy ideas that may or may not be used at some point in the future. It doesn't help with the current year's game, but might help Dave with future ones. Or he'll just make us laugh. The point is that it is fun. Not productive, but fun. Like minesweeper.
Steve Horn
28-09-2005, 15:43
My guess:balls will somehow be used in this years game. But I would not be suprised at all if balls were not used either.
Squirrelrock
29-09-2005, 15:32
Make up your freekin mind! And yees, balls will be used this year, although not inthe way anyone else has specified. I think that kitbot this year will have a gerbil ball drive train, effectivly your robot inside a giant plastic sphere. I don't know how anything on this sphere gets used (except maybe have a platform float around the ball with arms and such on the platform). That's my bet, if not for this year, then for the first year we have water on the field as a majority of the field.
Ashley Christine
30-09-2005, 08:37
Hmmm..... :)
Just thinking about this all makes me happy. Yay for FIRST!
I think balls would be good. In general.
Greg Needel
30-09-2005, 10:52
honestly i think alot of what FIRST uses each year has to do with cost/availability for both themselves and teams. pretty much since the floppies things have been commonly available. playground balls, soccer balls, plastic totes, playground/exercise balls, PVC pipe, etc. they need to make it so that everyone has access to them.
as far as balls go i would love to see balls on a different, like golf balls. can you picture 500 golf balls on the Field at once, yea it will never happen because field reset would be ridiculous but...just think about it :cool:
Mike Schroeder
30-09-2005, 11:37
honestly i think alot of what FIRST uses each year has to do with cost/availability for both themselves and teams. pretty much since the floppies things have been commonly available. playground balls, soccer balls, plastic totes, playground/exercise balls, PVC pipe, etc. they need to make it so that everyone has access to them.
as far as balls go i would love to see balls on a different, like golf balls. can you picture 500 golf balls on the Field at once, yea it will never happen because field reset would be ridiculous but...just think about it :cool:
think flat feild and automatic kitty litter box cleaner ;)
Billfred
30-09-2005, 13:20
as far as balls go i would love to see balls on a different, like golf balls. can you picture 500 golf balls on the Field at once, yea it will never happen because field reset would be ridiculous but...just think about it :cool:
Well, suppose that such things weren't explicitly reset. Like reset would sweep clear the path for robots to load in and out, but otherwise everything would be dumped out whereever.
So much for sensorless autonomous modes! :D
Squirrelrock
30-09-2005, 13:33
And if the game had multiple colors of balls, as metioned earlier (in this thread, i think), then sweeping a path for the bots to get on and off would make the auton worse than just random placement would. If you need to put only blue balls into your bin, but you don't know where you start, or where your bin is, you could at least still know what color balls are around you (assuming one color of balls per side, always). However, If your start position is know, but the ball color isn't, then you know where you are and where to go, but not what to pick up, which is by far the hardest thing to do in autonomous mode.
.02$
honestly i think alot of what FIRST uses each year has to do with cost/availability for both themselves and teams. pretty much since the floppies things have been commonly available. playground balls, soccer balls, plastic totes, playground/exercise balls, PVC pipe, etc. they need to make it so that everyone has access to them.
The floppies were commonly available, they were just some assembly required. :)
Wetzel
Billfred
30-09-2005, 14:39
If your start position is know, but the ball color isn't, then you know where you are and where to go, but not what to pick up, which is by far the hardest thing to do in autonomous mode.
Perhaps this would be the shining moment for the CMUcam. Mount it along some tube inside the robot that the balls pass through, and by seeing red/blue/yellow balls, it'd be sorted into bins that could then be dumped out as needed.
Of course, I also see the up side to larger playground balls--you can get whacked in the head with them and not hurt as much. (Playground balls to the head will stun you for a moment, but anything that passes a FIRST inspection can't throw it hard enough to bruise or anything. Golf balls, on the other hand...)
Well, suppose that such things weren't explicitly reset. Like reset would sweep clear the path for robots to load in and out, but otherwise everything would be dumped out whereever.
So much for sensorless autonomous modes! :D
Giant Roomba's! Clear the floor of the golfballs. More balls wins!
Squirrelrock
25-10-2005, 15:07
Perhaps this would be the shining moment for the CMUcam. Mount it along some tube inside the robot that the balls pass through, and by seeing red/blue/yellow balls, it'd be sorted into bins that could then be dumped out as needed.
Of course, I also see the up side to larger playground balls--you can get whacked in the head with them and not hurt as much. (Playground balls to the head will stun you for a moment, but anything that passes a FIRST inspection can't throw it hard enough to bruise or anything. Golf balls, on the other hand...)
Going with the golf balls thing, we would then ovbiously not be allowed to throw anything at all, intentionally or unintentionally, and consequentially your drive system would need to be (re-)designed to make sure that you don't kick up any golf balls when you are moving or are trying to move.
Could you be any more vague than that, Dave?
<edit>
O God, I had to ask it. Now we'll never learn anything from him.
</edit>
Could that seriously be a picture from this year's game? When you do a google search of baton, majorette, or majorette baton, that image doesn't come up anywhere in the top few pages--but lots of others do.
Plus, it has the CGI look of FIRST's stuff...
Hmmm...
--Petey
Rick TYler
25-10-2005, 16:47
(Beta Testing =/= Fine Tuning).
Heh. Beta Testing == RTM.
alphastryk
23-11-2005, 13:33
Could that seriously be a picture from this year's game? When you do a google search of baton, majorette, or majorette baton, that image doesn't come up anywhere in the top few pages--but lots of others do.
Plus, it has the CGI look of FIRST's stuff...
Hmmm...
--Petey
sorry to shoot down your theory about that being an exact game pice, but the image is part of a product description on http://americanbaton.com (click on "view products", its the second one)
I'm going to assume any 'baton' is most likely made of pvc, as that is easily available to teams to practice with.
-alphastryk
Alex Burman
01-12-2005, 06:35
Triangle, circle, square. :rolleyes:
Why do I think of the 20-sided dice I have for MTG life counters??? Well, they're bit circular, a bit square, and have many Triangles. Why has FIRST not used these yet as game objects???
I play D&D D4 are 4 sided dice and tetras, d6 are cubes, they also have d8 d10, d12, d20 (as mentioned), and one that can get really fun the d100 with 100 little sides.
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